12649 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

Some random thoughts/annoyances on my mind this morning (yes, I'm still thinking about this garbage!)
 
1: Why was Naruto's development as a ninja so terrible? We never see him really develop any cool elemental jutsu. He never learns hirashin. It was pretty much variation on variation of the rasengan. 
 
2: Why didn't we ever see Sakura's skill with genjutsu? Moreover, do we ever really see genjutsu used effectively in combat? 
 
3: Does anyone else feel like Kishi started the manga out with a pretty interest and complex concept of chakra and different jutsu and whatnot, only to incorporate less and less of those neat concepts?

I think a lot of them has been told to him to skip over.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Some random thoughts/annoyances on my mind this morning (yes, I'm still thinking about this garbage!)

 

1: Why was Naruto's development as a ninja so terrible? We never see him really develop any cool elemental jutsu. He never learns hirashin. It was pretty much variation on variation of the rasengan. 

 

2: Why didn't we ever see Sakura's skill with genjutsu? Moreover, do we ever really see genjutsu used effectively in combat? 

 

3: Does anyone else feel like Kishi started the manga out with a pretty interest and complex concept of chakra and different jutsu and whatnot, only to incorporate less and less of those neat concepts?

I think he started out with a more complex view of EVERYTHING. 

Ninja's weren't necessarily a good or evil force, morality was a gray area, characters felt like real people that you could invest yourself in. 

I don't know why he decided to just rehash the rasengan again and again but it probably had to do with the fact that he was constantly churning out NEW characters that needed techniques of their own so he was completely out of ideas. 

As for Sakura he just didn't give a kitten Pretty obvious to me by now. 

[Lady Lys]

I think he started out with a more complex view of EVERYTHING. 

Ninja's weren't necessarily a good or evil force, morality was a gray area, characters felt like real people that you could invest yourself in. 

I don't know why he decided to just rehash the rasengan again and again but it probably had to do with the fact that he was constantly churning out NEW characters that needed techniques of their own so he was completely out of ideas. 

As for Sakura he just didn't give a kitten Pretty obvious to me by now. 

Sakura? Who's Sakura? Never heard of her... must be a minor character...

 

 

Cause everybody and his grandmother know that the 3rd member of team 7 was the Boobie-princess....and Boobie princess gets what she wants. always... and she gets it by stalking you into submission.

[ThroughWithLove]

No? How is establishing plot significant characters with backgrounds, prominent subplots linking various other characters specially intended to serve as a point of interest for them, basing several different antagonist around them as parallels, helping to influence the mythos of the universe, and acting as a driving force for the protagonist not perceived as controversial?

Sasuke's introduction into the story and his morally actions has been the source of much debate and interest for the fans since the beginning. A number of questions that Kishi has been given pertain to Sasuke, his ideological framework, and what he'll do next. He's largely considered to be the most relevant character in the series after Naruto. I dare say Sasuke's existence has posed a greater conundrum for the manga itself than the romance subplot.

The other events I referenced are not, by and large, of much consequence. You could make a theory describing how Neji's survival and untimely demise in the most convenient of places when Naruto and Hinata are close together in a dangerous scenario where emotions were running high might have helped to influence the ultimate fate of NH. It's a loose connection though, and I would prefer not to believe that Neji's final moments, even if I may not be interested in him too much as a character, were used to jump-start a reciprocation of Hinata's unhealthy "love" for Naruto.

Editorial influences of a magnitude like the one described above with Sasuke give a clear example of just how much influence these men hold over Kishi's work. They not only created a character who has made it to the #1 spot on various popularity votes made and published, but it influenced the direction of the romance subplot. Now think to yourself on where the manga would be if Sasuke and the whole Uchiha plot concept had never been introduced. Would the series be better off? Many of us here would argue so. But how the core Japanese fanbase would interpret the series is a mystery. Personally, I think that the Uchiha has helped to raise interest for the series more than what it's taken away.
 

Really? And constantly alluding to the significance of the employers' and editors' influence whenever this character or this concept was introduced isn't perceived as a breach of trust between just them?
 

Neither will it do any good to pretend that neglecting the screen-time of important side-characters like Tsunade was a decision he personally wanted.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for Kishi to admit that he was unable to accomplish everything he hoped for in his ending or that that things didn't go quite according to plan with this resolution.
 

Again, that begs the question of why and when he chose to side with the interests of popularity over consistency. Did Kishi allow NH and SS because he personally had the wishes of this "majority" in his heart or was it through the coercion of those he works with?

I want to understand just how much enthusiasm Kishi holds for this lacklustre ending to his manga and for the subject matter of this movie. Does it excite him to be asked about Hinata's love finally being requited in a movie that was tailor-made for her? Is Sasuke's out of character romantic epiphany for Sakura an intended plot device or was it a recent concept? Just analysing the tension, wording, and context of the sentences chosen for his responces in interviews could help shed some light on what Kishi is actually thinking.
 

Which ended up being a piss-poor attempt to try and salvage what value she had left as a fighter while making her appear not so obsolete beside her godlike teammates. Her succession of Tsunade and the role of her latent genjutsu potential playing deciding factor in her becoming a stronger shinobi was never brought up again in the manga. Instead we receive a brief caption from some spoiler pages out of the anime studio's movie informing us that she inherited Tsunade's skills and reputation as the greatest medic in Konoha. How does this prove who the superior kunoichi is? She never got the opportunity to properly and thoroughly showcase any stronger abilities or refined fighting styles. She hasn't proven herself to have better resilience than her teacher who was grossly mutilated and continued fighting as if it were nothing on two different occasions. Her precious Byakugou jutsu holds no discernible qualities that set it apart or make it better from Tsunade's. In terms of accomplishments in the medical field, Tsunade still holds that honour. All of what Sakura has learned came from Tsunade originally. It isn't like Naruto's Rasenshuriken which the toad sages noted was a unique ability they had never seen before.

In the end, Kishi was unable to make good on the assurances he made to Sakura, but I digress. If Kishi intended for NH to occur some time after the interview he gave of Sakura acting more heroine-like then he did a lousy job of building it up. In fact, instead of trying set the boundaries of NS's friendship, he took it one step further with the parallels made to Minato, Kushina, the dream for Hokageship, and the 4th Databook's contents concerning Naruto (as well as the lack of reference to Hinata).
 

Once again, I'm not suggesting that Kishi state outright that he sold his manga. But an explanation for how he came to choose the characters and setting for the epilogue is wanted. The questions being asked could worded in a manner that he's normally accustomed to like when and why he made this character, what he intends to do to resolve this conflict, or how the story will pan out from this point in time. If he admits that this wasn't exactly what he originally intended to do then it's no better or worse for him now since he's already appealed to the masses with this ending and the movie.
 

Information can be gleaned just the sentences and cryptic statements that Kishi gives in interviews. It's how his responce to the hope of seeing Hinata confess to Naruto is now being addressed in the movie (supposedly).

You may not see any value with this tactic, but I do.
 

I am not arguing for Kishi to self-denigrate himself and ruin his career by admitting how he bent to the crooked dealings of his employers. What I want to know is whether this ending was the motive he held all along for the characters. Does he wish he could have done more to convey this shift in the atmosphere and temperament? These questions can trace back to the possible influences of editors (something which Kishi has already admitted was real), but they're not incriminating anyone.
 

Kishi may be toeing the party line, but that doesn't mean he's above expressing disapproval or regret over some of the choices he made with his writing. Whether it's loosely defined or directly commented on, he does express at least some of his opinions for the manga when asked questions during interviews.
 

I can agree with you on this issue. If Kishi actually had an alternative in mind then he's not going to hint at any disagreement with the direction Pierrot is taking until at least some time down the road.

 

I have to agree with much of this. Part 1 was damn near perfect, but it's only flaw was the brother's concept that came out of nowhere during Naruto's fight with Sasuke. I get that their friends, but the whole brothers thing just wasn't developed. Then Naruto spends the entirety of part 2 obsessing over him. For a while, I had interpreted this as the depths of his love for Sakura, but Kishi (or the editors) shut that theory down when they had Naruto uncharacteristically say that he was Sasuke mainly for himself. Should've known something was wrong right there. Decrease on Sasuke on this manga and we could've gone to more interesting places, IMO. In Berserk, Griffith is Guts goal and rival, but the two rarely interact.

[FireFox]

WHY DID THIS PLACE SUDDENLY DIED !!!       .  We need to move things up  .

 

Btw this is genius  

[Liu bie]

Hey guys even if SS is canon at least they do not have to win in doujin. Pass the voice for those NS artist and full this place of you art.

 

https://www.tumblr.c...narusaku doujin

[ThroughWithLove]

Some random thoughts/annoyances on my mind this morning (yes, I'm still thinking about this garbage!)

 

1: Why was Naruto's development as a ninja so terrible? We never see him really develop any cool elemental jutsu. He never learns hirashin. It was pretty much variation on variation of the rasengan. 

 

2: Why didn't we ever see Sakura's skill with genjutsu? Moreover, do we ever really see genjutsu used effectively in combat? 

 

3: Does anyone else feel like Kishi started the manga out with a pretty interest and complex concept of chakra and different jutsu and whatnot, only to incorporate less and less of those neat concepts?

 

Just watch Naruto's final fight with Sasuke. I came in expecting in to be a clash of two top level shinobi using in-depth tactics and strategies to overwhelm one another.  Remember that time Naruto outwitted Zabuza? That moment was great and established him as having enough cunning to make a great ninja? Those kinds of fights are what made this series great. Instead though, the fight was pretty much two cavemen bashing each other over the head with overly large clubs. It was pretty much a wannabe DBZ fight. It was dull and weak in comparison to the fights in earlier story arcs.

 

I expected more from Sakura too. Just because you're a medic does not mean you have to be useless. Look at the awesome set of skills Kabuto displayed during his fights with Tsunade and Naruto respectively. He used chakra scapels to severe his link to the kyuubi's chakra. Just imagine if Sakura had mastered that and genjutsu. We could've gotten some pretty creative fights out of her. Such a pity.

 

I think that the problem here is that after part 1, too many hands were stirring the pot. Too many outside influences started telling Kishimoto. Create more characters nobody gives a sh-t about (Yamato, Sai, Team Hawk), make Naruto look worthless despite having him train with Jiraiya. Make Tsunade pathetic by having her get curb-stomped by Pein. The list goes on and on. It wouldn't surprise me if the editors and studios told Kishi that no one thought NaruSaku would be a good idea. When you get to the point where you have to miss honey moons just to face that kind of crap, I hardly blame him for saying 'f-ck it' and letting them make this sh-t ending.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 13 November 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[Khaleesi]

no offense people but you need to just stop cut the bullsh**...kishimoto has already revealed that the movie will tell us what happened between 699 and 700 and its already full with naruhina,the love songs theme,the cover,the trailers,the kids,the kittening manga everything is telling us that nh/ss are canon yet some people are in denial world

 

some people are worst than how ss/nh were before 693

This is for the people that believe or want to support. If you don't then get out here. 

Look at the rules, and stop telling people to give up. IT'S JUST A THEORY. Does it hurts you? Does it affect you in some way? No. 

Think whatever you want, but don't mess with people.

[Michi]

Someone should share all of ladygt's doujins on twitter & say: she should replace kishi no?

lol ok no. ...ok maybe I'm not kidding. LOLZ

but, in all serious note someone should share them! So Japanese fans can read it! I feel like they will really appreciate it (: I know many are as devastated as us and were really dedicated to NS.

Edited by Michi, 13 November 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Come to think of it, another red flag was the fight between Naruto and Sasuke. While I did like the fight, the problems are exposed and I won't get into them today. I will say this: the fact the fight happened when Naruto wasn't 100% and all, that tells you this guy wants to end now. No more breather, nothing, just end it now.

[rinali24]

Someone should share all of ladygt's doujins on twitter & say: she should replace kishi no?

lol ok no. ...ok maybe I'm not kidding. LOLZ

but, in all serious note someone should share them! So Japanese fans can read it! I feel like they will really appreciate it (: I know many are as devastated as us and were really dedicated to NS.

 

There was one doujinshi created by LadyGT that got translated into Japanese and was shared on a Japanese site. Many Japanese fans liked it. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
There was one doujinshi created by LadyGT that got translated into Japanese and was shared on a Japanese site. Many Japanese fans liked it. 

Especially since it's true to the story, theme, and characters. A fa truly knows more than the maker.

[Michi]

^yes! like we said, it's not only about the pairings!

 
There was one doujinshi created by LadyGT that got translated into Japanese and was shared on a Japanese site. Many Japanese fans liked it. 

Oh yeah ! I saw that! Would someone mind giving me the link to it please. (:

Now we just need her other doujinshi translated. The one where naruto gets sick & Sakura takes care of him.

.../sniff/ so beautiful.

Edited by Michi, 13 November 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Sakura? Who's Sakura? Never heard of her... must be a minor character...

 

 

Cause everybody and his grandmother know that the 3rd member of team 7 was the Boobie-princess....and Boobie princess gets what she wants. always... and she gets it by stalking you into submission.

Don't be silly! its very clear that Naruto never had feelings for anyone other than Hinata, she wasn't stalking him! she just didn't want to crowd him  

Sakura was just his sister/mother figure...

 

I think that the problem here is that after part 1, too many hands were stirring the pot. Too many outside influences started telling Kishimoto. Create more characters nobody gives a sh-t about (Yamato, Sai, Team Hawk), make Naruto look worthless despite having him train with Jiraiya. Make Tsunade pathetic by having her get curb-stomped by Pein. The list goes on and on. It wouldn't surprise me if the editors and studios told Kishi that no one thought NaruSaku would be a good idea. When you get to the point where you have to miss honey moons just to face that kind of crap, I hardly blame him for saying 'f-ck it' and letting them make this sh-t ending.

 

 I liked Yamato and Sai! They were so shafted in this BS ending its almost unreal. So much for being part of Team 7.
 

 

Come to think of it, another red flag was the fight between Naruto and Sasuke. While I did like the fight, the problems are exposed and I won't get into them today. I will say this: the fact the fight happened when Naruto wasn't 100% and all, that tells you this guy wants to end now. No more breather, nothing, just end it now.

Pretty much. This ending was thrown together in the sloppiest, fastest way they could manage and anyone who cares about the actual story could see it. Rather then devoting time to making enough chapters to wrap things up correctly, like giving Naruto time to recoup, giving him time to THINK and reflect on everything, Giving ALL of team 7 that opportunity and to find actual closure what we got was a kitten short fight and an even worse conclusion to it. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

The funny thing is I remember seeing the fight between Naruto and Sasuke about to go down, I was like, "Alright, let's do this." Then I heard the news that the series is going to end in 5 weeks. My immediate thoughts is "Oh no...Easy...He should know what he's doing..." Sadly, I was wrong.

[DeathGodMack]

[Narufan85]

 

Just watch Naruto's final fight with Sasuke. I came in expecting in to be a clash of two top level shinobi using in-depth tactics and strategies to overwhelm one another.  Remember that time Naruto outwitted Zabuza? That moment was great and established him as having enough cunning to make a great ninja? Those kinds of fights are what made this series great. Instead though, the fight was pretty much two cavemen bashing each other over the head with overly large clubs. It was pretty much a wannabe DBZ fight. It was dull and weak in comparison to the fights in earlier story arcs.

 

I expected more from Sakura too. Just because you're a medic does not mean you have to be useless. Look at the awesome set of skills Kabuto displayed during his fights with Tsunade and Naruto respectively. He used chakra scapels to severe his link to the kyuubi's chakra. Just imagine if Sakura had mastered that and genjutsu. We could've gotten some pretty creative fights out of her. Such a pity.

 

I think that the problem here is that after part 1, too many hands were stirring the pot. Too many outside influences started telling Kishimoto. Create more characters nobody gives a sh-t about (Yamato, Sai, Team Hawk), make Naruto look worthless despite having him train with Jiraiya. Make Tsunade pathetic by having her get curb-stomped by Pein. The list goes on and on. It wouldn't surprise me if the editors and studios told Kishi that no one thought NaruSaku would be a good idea. When you get to the point where you have to miss honey moons just to face that kind of crap, I hardly blame him for saying 'f-ck it' and letting them make this sh-t ending.

 

Absolutely spot on. Some stuff, like Naruto's apparent lack of training with Jiraiya, was really frustrating. There was so much potential to show Naruto's growth as a skilled ninja. Instead, he gets asspulls and magic power ups. The same can be said of Sasuke, though he shows a bit of variety in skills.

[Lady Lys]

Don't be silly! its very clear that Naruto never had feelings for anyone other than Hinata, she wasn't stalking him! she just didn't want to crowd him  

Sakura was just his sister/mother figure...

 

 

 I liked Yamato and Sai! They were so shafted in this BS ending its almost unreal. So much for being part of Team 7.
 

 

Pretty much. This ending was thrown together in the sloppiest, fastest way they could manage and anyone who cares about the actual story could see it. Rather then devoting time to making enough chapters to wrap things up correctly, like giving Naruto time to recoup, giving him time to THINK and reflect on everything, Giving ALL of team 7 that opportunity and to find actual closure what we got was a sh*tty short fight and an even worse conclusion to it. 

Sakura was only a projection of his fantasies.    But he clearly always had feelings for the Hinata-princess-hime-sama all along (and she wasn't stalking, she was looking over him). 

 

I loved Yamato and Sai too, and Kishi ruined them...strange....

 

This end is the mother of all kitten...and no other will top it. ever.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Sakura was only a projection of his fantasies.    But he clearly always had feelings for the Hinata-princess-hime-sama all along (and she wasn't stalking, she was looking over him). 

 

I loved Yamato and Sai too, and Kishi ruined them...strange....

 

This end is the mother of all bullsh**...and no other will top it. ever.

DON'T SAAAAAY THAT I STILL HAVE SHIPS I'M ROOTING FOR. They are hella close to being canon

Kishi, the Ruiner of all things. The King of trolls, The destroyer of development, and  the Paramount of Ass Pulls. 

Poor Yamato and Sai...Atleast Sai gets a kid with a woman he showed 0 interest in...Yamato just disappears like Karin. Bet they decided the ending was Bunk and just left. 

 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 13 November 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Lady Lys]

DON'T SAAAAAY THAT I STILL HAVE SHIPS I'M ROOTING FOR. They are hella close to being canon

Kishi, the Ruiner of all things. The King of trolls, The destroyer of development, and  the Paramount of Ass Pulls. 
 

 

But they were all of them deceived for another canon was made. In the land of Japan, in the fires of Studio Pierrot, the dark Lord Kishimoto forged in secret a master canon, to control all others and into this canon, he poured his cruelty, his malice, and his will to dominate all life. One canon to rule them all.