12649 replies to this topic

[DeathGodMack]

"Replace Jane with Sakura and this describes Naruto somewhat i believe.

Naruto is trying to find his way into Sakura's heart. 

"Something's getting in the way. Something's just about to break. I will try to find my place in the diary of Sakura"

[trang95]

I told all of my friends, even my old school teachers, about Naruto's ending and I can guarantee you not one of them was pleased with this ending. And yes, most of them are NH/SS shippers as well. But it's not about the ships. It's about the amount of effort that was put into this ending? Nobody thought that it felt like Naruto.

You told them about it, but I would make them read. They need to see the those two failed chapters for themselves to formulate a true opinion.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

With no-one wearing their real face
It's a whiteout of emotion
And I've only got my brittle bones to break the fall

When the love in letters fade
It's like moving in slow motion
And we're already too late if we arrive at all

And then we're caught up in the arms race
An involuntary addiction
And we're shedding every value our mothers taught

So will you please show me your real face
Draw the line in the horizon
Cos I only need your name to call the reasons why I fought

 

James, you are a BRILLIANT bastard to show us this! X-D I did even think "War" would work as a NaruSaku song.

[DeathGodMack]

It seems that all NaruSaku songs have changed from happy to sad.

[Toasty Warrior]

Since everyone is sharing songs, I think this one fits quite well:

 

[Lady Lys]

Maybe we should band together to buy him that Hinata clock and set it to continually go off... perhaps if he releases some "flying bukkakke" he'll mellow out and move on with his life..... Haha j/k dude obviously has no life!!!

 

That "flying bukkake" comment became legendary. 

(I'm really scared about that clock tough...I mean, imagine it going off in the night when you be all sleepy sleep and the suddenly: NARUTO-KUUUUUUN. *le Gasp!* it would be terrible!)

 

 

Are we having a competition for the saddest song to go with all this nightmare-inducing ending??? OK peeps have my contribution, this is 'the thing' for me.

[DeathGodMack]

"Replace Jane with Sakura and this describes Naruto somewhat i believe.

Naruto is trying to find his way into Sakura's heart. 

"Something's getting in the way. Something's just about to break. I will try to find my place in the diary of Sakura"

 

 

 

 

That "flying bukkake" comment became legendary. 

(I'm really scared about that clock tough...I mean, imagine it going off in the night when you be all sleepy sleep and the suddenly: NARUTO-KUUUUUUN. *le Gasp!* it would be terrible!)

 

 

Are we having a competition for the saddest song to go with all this nightmare-inducing ending??? OK peeps have my contribution, this is 'the thing' for me.

 

 

How Naruto feels about Sakura. The dairy is like Sakura's heart/love.

 

Edited by DeathGodMack, 13 November 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Atheck]

What happened to our friend who posted the reactions of the Japanese fandom? Surely there's more to tell from them considering the gravity that this ending held. 

[DeathGodMack]

[Nefertieh]

It's no less creditable than any author who admits to influences from other parties directing the course of his work. Kishi has already gone on record to admitting that these people played a part in directing the course of the plot with the introduction of new characters like Killer Bee and Taka, even Sasuke was originally the brainchild of an editor iirc. Oh, and let's not forget the scenarios with Tsunade fighting Pain and Hidan having a more diverse moveset that were scraped due to time constraints. I believe it was even mentioned somewhere that Kishi intended to have Neji and Choji die in SRA.

 

I don't think creating characters, giving them fights, and killing two side characters off is exactly nearly as controversial as the endgame pairings. Admitting that his editors told him add these characters or cut the arcs short has no effect on his overall credibility as an author, nor does it undermine the whole purpose of the NH movie he's writing.

 

Why is it so difficult for this man to confess that he intended for something different? Can he not string his words together in a way that doesn't paint him in a negative light? You know, describe the reasons with a neutral overtone like with all of the other confessions to editorial influence in the past if he feels his dignity is at stake.

It's not difficult if he wants to piss his employers off or his reputation off. Sure, he can word it nicely, but no amount of sugar-coating will be able to really cover up the fact that he's admitting himself to be a tool.

 

Again, that's only assuming his editors pressured him or held a gun to his head. It's entirely possible he just wrote NH and SS because he perceived them to be the bigger fanbase, ergo he is pleasing more fans.

 

True, but then he reaffirmed his intention of presenting Sakura in a heroine fashion because that's apparently what her inherent nature is like - lo and behold, the promise was "fulfilled" through (largely) underwhelming spurts of screen-time over one hundred chapters later that the side-cast was also leeching off of for their own benefit.

Remember his assurances of dedicating some meaningful attention to her after Kakashi's "year" was finished? It never panned out, did it? Unless you believe the events of #693 to be the shining moment of glory that Kishi was referring to.

 

Which is why I think some point between that interview and the beginning of the NH movie, Kishimoto effectively gave up on NS. If you confronted him about it, maybe he'd say his editors forced him, but it's more likely he'd say Sakura did get to defeat Kaguya along with Sasuke and Naruto.
 

 

To which fandom though? Furthermore, this presents the issue of which group he's more dedicated to. And if he allows popularity alone to dictate the course of his work, as well as affect its consistency, then he doesn't need people to believe that he's a sellout. He already is one.

 

It doesn't matter which fandom, whichever fandom he's heard from is what counts in the end. I still don't see why an author would want to sabotage his own career by admitting he's a sellout.

 

Says who? Again, why is it so impossible for him to admit that his plans changed in an characteristically unbiased manner? The fact that his emotions are a mixed baggage is an indirect confession to not achieving everything he sought out (unless he was referring to sentimentality over his work being finished after so many years). These fans who are only interested in the movie for the songstress, SS's crap, and to see what will likely be the final movie of the series are already guaranteed to watch it. 

 

Would you like me to reference my argument with citations from other people? Because again, it doesn't matter how Kishimoto says he changed the story due to editorial or fan pressure. Simply revealing that he is a tool is going to catch him flack and seriously undermine his ability as an author. Sure, the NH/ SS fans will watch the movie, but in the small manga publishing world, his editors do not want to be known as the terrible employers, and his movie doesn't want to be labelled as the unwanted bastard child of Kishimoto and Studio Perriot.

 

Interestingly, this desire to appeal to the masses came as a sudden shock while in the past he's been adamant in following the course that he personally set for the story. I do believe that editorial influence might have been a factor. You can see from the quality and effort of the last few dozen chapters that Kishi's interest was beginning to shrink. Couple exhaustion with the the stresses in his personal life and influence from editors/executives/Pierrot and there's a likely account of why the man chose to swiftly end the series on such an uninspiring note.

 

Again, we can infer all we want, but him admitting to doing something "for the money" or "for the popularity" is not going to do him any good. It's career suicide. He's going to be singing praises for Hinata and naruhina all the way to the bank, because that's what good PR is.

 

But there's already enough people acting in his defence who will try and argue that Kishi intended for this ending to pan out since the early planning stages of The Last. Who it would bother if Kishi admitted that all of his plans for the ending (saying that it was a spur of the moment isn't necessary if that will ease his conscience) didn't come to fruition? Cutting corners and changing certain events around for this reason or that coercive force is nothing new from Kishi.

 

He's already ticked off all of the narusaku fans of the world, he's not going to do the same for all the NH and SS fans of the world as well.

 

Hey, every NS fan, including myself, would be happy if he did reveal he changed the endgame pairings. It just seems unlikely, and even more unlikely that he'd implicate his editors or loud fans as the cause.
 

Edited by Nefertieh, 13 November 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Did you see this?

It's an art that Kishi drew for fun for the assistants.

[Elicit]

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=14695

[Atheck]

I don't think creating characters, giving them fights, and killing two side characters off is exactly nearly as controversial as the endgame pairings. Admitting that his editors told him add these characters or cut the arcs short has no effect on his overall credibility as an author, nor does it undermine the whole purpose of the NH movie he's writing.

No? How is establishing plot significant characters with backgrounds, prominent subplots linking various other characters specially intended to serve as a point of interest for them, basing several different antagonist around them as parallels, helping to influence the mythos of the universe, and acting as a driving force for the protagonist not perceived as controversial?

Sasuke's introduction into the story and his morally actions has been the source of much debate and interest for the fans since the beginning. A number of questions that Kishi has been given pertain to Sasuke, his ideological framework, and what he'll do next. He's largely considered to be the most relevant character in the series after Naruto. I dare say Sasuke's existence has posed a greater conundrum for the manga itself than the romance subplot.

The other events I referenced are not, by and large, of much consequence. You could make a theory describing how Neji's survival and untimely demise in the most convenient of places when Naruto and Hinata are close together in a dangerous scenario where emotions were running high might have helped to influence the ultimate fate of NH. It's a loose connection though, and I would prefer not to believe that Neji's final moments, even if I may not be interested in him too much as a character, were used to jump-start a reciprocation of Hinata's unhealthy "love" for Naruto.

Editorial influences of a magnitude like the one described above with Sasuke give a clear example of just how much influence these men hold over Kishi's work. They not only created a character who has made it to the #1 spot on various popularity votes made and published, but it influenced the direction of the romance subplot. Now think to yourself on where the manga would be if Sasuke and the whole Uchiha plot concept had never been introduced. Would the series be better off? Many of us here would argue so. But how the core Japanese fanbase would interpret the series is a mystery. Personally, I think that the Uchiha has helped to raise interest for the series more than what it's taken away.
 

It's not difficult if he wants to piss his employers off or his reputation off.

Really? And constantly alluding to the significance of the employers' and editors' influence whenever this character or this concept was introduced isn't perceived as a breach of trust between just them?
 

Sure, he can word it nicely, but no amount of sugar-coating will be able to really cover up the fact that he's admitting himself to be a tool.

Neither will it do any good to pretend that neglecting the screen-time of important side-characters like Tsunade was a decision he personally wanted.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for Kishi to admit that he was unable to accomplish everything he hoped for in his ending or that that things didn't go quite according to plan with this resolution.
 

Again, that's only assuming his editors pressured him or held a gun to his head. It's entirely possible he just wrote NH and SS because he perceived them to be the bigger fanbase, ergo he is pleasing more fans.

Again, that begs the question of why and when he chose to side with the interests of popularity over consistency. Did Kishi allow NH and SS because he personally had the wishes of this "majority" in his heart or was it through the coercion of those he works with?

I want to understand just how much enthusiasm Kishi holds for this lacklustre ending to his manga and for the subject matter of this movie. Does it excite him to be asked about Hinata's love finally being requited in a movie that was tailor-made for her? Is Sasuke's out of character romantic epiphany for Sakura an intended plot device or was it a recent concept? Just analysing the tension, wording, and context of the sentences chosen for his responces in interviews could help shed some light on what Kishi is actually thinking.
 

Which is why I think some point between that interview and the beginning of the NH movie, Kishimoto effectively gave up on NS. If you confronted him about it, maybe he'd say his editors forced him, but it's more likely he'd say Sakura did get to defeat Kaguya along with Sasuke and Naruto.

Which ended up being a piss-poor attempt to try and salvage what value she had left as a fighter while making her appear not so obsolete beside her godlike teammates. Her succession of Tsunade and the role of her latent genjutsu potential playing deciding factor in her becoming a stronger shinobi was never brought up again in the manga. Instead we receive a brief caption from some spoiler pages out of the anime studio's movie informing us that she inherited Tsunade's skills and reputation as the greatest medic in Konoha. How does this prove who the superior kunoichi is? She never got the opportunity to properly and thoroughly showcase any stronger abilities or refined fighting styles. She hasn't proven herself to have better resilience than her teacher who was grossly mutilated and continued fighting as if it were nothing on two different occasions. Her precious Byakugou jutsu holds no discernible qualities that set it apart or make it better from Tsunade's. In terms of accomplishments in the medical field, Tsunade still holds that honour. All of what Sakura has learned came from Tsunade originally. It isn't like Naruto's Rasenshuriken which the toad sages noted was a unique ability they had never seen before.

In the end, Kishi was unable to make good on the assurances he made to Sakura, but I digress. If Kishi intended for NH to occur some time after the interview he gave of Sakura acting more heroine-like then he did a lousy job of building it up. In fact, instead of trying set the boundaries of NS's friendship, he took it one step further with the parallels made to Minato, Kushina, the dream for Hokageship, and the 4th Databook's contents concerning Naruto (as well as the lack of reference to Hinata).
 

It doesn't matter which fandom, whichever fandom he's heard from is what counts in the end. I still don't see why an author would want to sabotage his own career by admitting he's a sellout.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that Kishi state outright that he sold his manga. But an explanation for how he came to choose the characters and setting for the epilogue is wanted. The questions being asked could worded in a manner that he's normally accustomed to like when and why he made this character, what he intends to do to resolve this conflict, or how the story will pan out from this point in time. If he admits that this wasn't exactly what he originally intended to do then it's no better or worse for him now since he's already appealed to the masses with this ending and the movie.
 

Would you like me to reference my argument with citations from other people? Because again, it doesn't matter how Kishimoto says he changed the story due to editorial or fan pressure.

Information can be gleaned just the sentences and cryptic statements that Kishi gives in interviews. It's how his responce to the hope of seeing Hinata confess to Naruto is now being addressed in the movie (supposedly).

You may not see any value with this tactic, but I do.
 

Simply revealing that he is a tool is going to catch him flack and seriously undermine his ability as an author. Sure, the NH/ SS fans will watch the movie, but in the small manga publishing world, his editors do not want to be known as the terrible employers, and his movie doesn't want to be labelled as the unwanted bastard child of Kishimoto and Studio Perriot. Again, we can infer all we want, but him admitting to doing something "for the money" or "for the popularity" is not going to do him any good. It's career suicide.

I am not arguing for Kishi to self-denigrate himself and ruin his career by admitting how he bent to the crooked dealings of his employers. What I want to know is whether this ending was the motive he held all along for the characters. Does he wish he could have done more to convey this shift in the atmosphere and temperament? These questions can trace back to the possible influences of editors (something which Kishi has already admitted was real), but they're not incriminating anyone.
 

He's going to be singing praises for Hinata and naruhina all the way to the bank, because that's what good PR is.

Kishi may be toeing the party line, but that doesn't mean he's above expressing disapproval or regret over some of the choices he made with his writing. Whether it's loosely defined or directly commented on, he does express at least some of his opinions for the manga when asked questions during interviews.
 

He's already ticked off all of the narusaku fans of the world, he's not going to do the same for all the NH and SS fans of the world as well.

I can agree with you on this issue. If Kishi actually had an alternative in mind then he's not going to hint at any disagreement with the direction Pierrot is taking until at least some time down the road.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=14695

I'm not sure why this is necessary, in this thread alone we have been over this REPEATEDLY. We have also had people coming in to accuse us of harassing Kishi on twitter, something we have Also had no part in. 

Do we really need to have a "Civil war" among ourselves over kitten that doesn't matter? 

[milan kyuubi]

Lol! XD

 

I just twetted this to Kishi's assistant! XD

 

https://twitter.com/...881470604722176

[lupina]

Lol! XD

 

I just twetted this to Kishi's assistant! XD

 

https://twitter.com/...881470604722176

 

Yeah ... and what does it say?

[milan kyuubi]

 

Yeah ... and what does it say?

 

"This would be awesome!"

 

Wonder if he'll respond?

Edited by milan kyuubi, 13 November 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[lupina]

 

"This is awesome!"

 

Wonder if he'll respond?

 

You'll get the same nonsense answer as everyone else.

[milan kyuubi]

 

You'll get the same nonsense answer as everyone else.

 

I wasn't trying to ask any questions! Lol! XD

 

Just wanted to see his reaction to this scenario!

Edited by milan kyuubi, 13 November 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Narufan85]

Some random thoughts/annoyances on my mind this morning (yes, I'm still thinking about this garbage!)

 

1: Why was Naruto's development as a ninja so terrible? We never see him really develop any cool elemental jutsu. He never learns hirashin. It was pretty much variation on variation of the rasengan. 

 

2: Why didn't we ever see Sakura's skill with genjutsu? Moreover, do we ever really see genjutsu used effectively in combat? 

 

3: Does anyone else feel like Kishi started the manga out with a pretty interest and complex concept of chakra and different jutsu and whatnot, only to incorporate less and less of those neat concepts?