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The Great NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#1021 Daidoji_Tangen

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 13 2007, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Question: How is it a mistranslation exactly? huh.gif


QUOTE
Oh yeah, there's the "I love you with all my heart" by the way. It was a mistranslation. The actual words used were 好きでたまらない (suki de tamaranai), which litterally translates as "I like/love you to the point of unbearable." However, "de tamaranai" is an expression, not a litteral meaning. It's used much like "to death" in English: "I like [something] to death." It's otherwise not on the same level as "daisuki" or "aikitteneru" which are more common forms of love confession. As even a SasuSaku fan who was arguing against me put it:

but "love" (ai kitteneru) would NOT be appropriate for the scene or the two characters in conversation per the social norms as I understand them as they are neither adults nor have been in a long-term relationship, which I'm pretty sure is the context in which that phrase is mainly used.

Well there you go. It was an expression appropriate for non-adults in a non long-term relationship. Said by a SasuSaku fan.


That quote is from Mizura's essay.

#1022 Rick (Bonta-kun)

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:11 AM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 14 2007, 03:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you misunderstood. There wasn't an argument or even implication that it was SasuSaku hint (although you aren't the only person to come away with that impression :\); Sasuke tied into it through plot relevance, not a pairing hint. The main argument was that it wasn't a romantic moment at all, but more about character development, and further progress of NaruSaku bond in general/teamwork. Maybe it wasn't written very well. unsure.gif

Hmm, you may be right, i read it a while ago, i think it was done by someone called Kyuubi475. Anyway, if thats what he was trying to say, isnt he agreeing with the NaruSaku fans, i mean furthering a bond between 2 people is definitely taking steps in the right direction for a romantic relationship.


#1023 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:47 AM

QUOTE (rick @ Sep 13 2007, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm, you may be right, i read it a while ago, i think it was done by someone called Kyuubi475. Anyway, if thats what he was trying to say, isnt he agreeing with the NaruSaku fans, i mean furthering a bond between 2 people is definitely taking steps in the right direction for a romantic relationship.


You probably just got kyuubi425's interpretation of the post then. He's not the one that came up with the idea.

#1024 kawarimi

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:49 AM

QUOTE (Daidoji_Tangen @ Sep 13 2007, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That quote is from Mizura's essay.


Ok, let me see if I have this right from reading that excerpt (plus more, it took me a while to find where it was in the essay). Because it's not "ai kitteneru" - a phrase pretty much only used by adults because younger people would consider it funny to use - it's not a pledge of eternal devotion. I never knew it was that, or I should say, that it had to be that based on the English translation (the one I remember, and think is accurate is "I love you so much!" So if I don't used the strongest phrasing possible when confessing my feelings, it makes them less valid? Isn't "I love you" still "I love you" even if it's not accompanied by "with all my heart, soul, and being for all eternity!"?

I've seen many times where the climactic confession only used "suki" - and yet it still adequately conveys the character's love, and not in the sense that it's not going to work out (I'm talking about the usual implied happy ending, although we rarely get a scene specifically showing them old and still together, but it's implied), or that he/she will fall for some other character later in the show and use a "stronger" phrase to show the difference. Trying to deduce that by the specific phrase is just....weird (imo). Do people do this when they read fiction in their native language? Sakura confessed love, you figure out what will come of it regardless of how it was phrased.

It wasn't a mistranslation, it doesn't have a direct translation into English, so "I love you so much" or "I love you with all my heart" aren't incorrect. Although I will say the example in the essay of "I like/love you to the point of unbearable" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and really isn't something you'd say to someone in English.

QUOTE (rick @ Sep 13 2007, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm, you may be right, i read it a while ago, i think it was done by someone called Kyuubi475. Anyway, if thats what he was trying to say, isnt he agreeing with the NaruSaku fans, i mean furthering a bond between 2 people is definitely taking steps in the right direction for a romantic relationship.


Maybe we're thinking of two different things then. Or what Nick said. tongue.gif

But just a general question: in order to be against a pairing, you can't want that relationship to progress at all, even as friendship? A bond can be furthered even if one believes it's not leading to romance in the future. While it's not specifically anti-, it's not for either in that context.

#1025 Power06

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:51 AM

To add my piece, judging from what Yamato said I can say that new doors will open for Sakura in terms of wanting to help Naruto more from the revelation of these new found feelings. I quote this from Mizura's essay in my own words, while she cannot stop the demon fox, or heal him of his biggest insecurities and pains, this new door that is opening for her will allow her to reach Naruto in ways that sometime may seem impossible, and her feelings will be the catalyst to start this...just sit back and watch NaruSaku fans!

#1026 Arcticfox

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Power06 @ Sep 14 2007, 01:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To add my piece, judging from what Yamato said I can say that new doors will open for Sakura in terms of wanting to help Naruto more from the revelation of these new found feelings. I quote this from Mizura's essay in my own words, while she cannot stop the demon fox, or heal him of his biggest insecurities and pains, this new door that is opening for her will allow her to reach Naruto in ways that sometime may seem impossible, and her feelings will be the catalyst to start this...just sit back and watch NaruSaku fans!


I really need to take this advice, it's so hard when you see such close moments. But as whoever said it way back and I'm sorry I don't remeber sad.gif if it is growing into something, I'd rather see it be cute little moments and sharing of feelings then watch Sakura just fall head head over heals for Naruto.

and if it does turn up NaruSaku, NaruHina, or SasuSaku I hope we all can be cool about it

work through the pain :love:

#1027 MagusKyros

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 02:17 AM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Sep 13 2007, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another reminder to stop stereotyping SasuSaku and NaruHina fans, such as ignoring sensible arguments. Just because they disagree with the argument doesn't mean that they're ignoring it.


I don't make the stereotypes, I just see them. I'm willing to bet that a good 1/4 of my total posts on NF (1600 or something) are just from pairing threads, probably even more.

I've exhausted myself trying to reasonably debate with them. Also, I said most, not all. Some of them are quite reasonable in accepting my reasons.

This is the real world Nick. Stereotypes are going to exist forever. I wish it didn't, because it really makes it hard for me to live than it already is.
A NaruSaku Manifesto - A presentation on the NaruSaku pairing using the manga.


#1028 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 13 2007, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, let me see if I have this right from reading that excerpt (plus more, it took me a while to find where it was in the essay). Because it's not "ai kitteneru" - a phrase pretty much only used by adults because younger people would consider it funny to use - it's not a pledge of eternal devotion. I never knew it was that, or I should say, that it had to be that based on the English translation (the one I remember, and think is accurate is "I love you so much!" I just find this attempt to break down how strong/lasting a character's feelings are by what specific phrase to express his/her love used is honestly silly. So if I don't used the strongest phrasing possible when confessing my feelings, it makes them less valid? Isn't "I love you" still "I love you" even if it's not accompanied by "with all my heart, soul, and being for all eternity!"?

I've seen many times where the climactic confession only used "suki" - and yet it still adequately conveys the character's love, and not in the sense that it's not going to work out (I'm talking about the usual implied happy ending, although we rarely get a scene specifically showing them old and still together, but it's implied), or that he/she will fall for some other character later in the show and use a "stronger" phrase to show the difference. Trying to deduce that by the specific phrase is just....weird. Do people do this when they read fiction in their native language? Sakura confessed love, you figure out what will come of it regardless of how it was phrased.

It wasn't a mistranslation, it doesn't have a direct translation into English, so "I love you so much" or "I love you with all my heart" aren't incorrect. Although I will say the example in the essay of "I like/love you to the point of unbearable" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and really isn't something you'd say to someone in English.


Saying that it's a mistranslation sounds more like it's claiming that the Japanese phrasing isn't the strongest possible even though it's been translated as arguably the strongest possible. It's not saying that because it's not the strongest possible phrasing that the feelings aren't genuine.

My own argument for that was based on what she did, not what she said.


QUOTE (MagusKyros @ Sep 13 2007, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't make the stereotypes, I just see them. I'm willing to bet that a good 1/4 of my total posts on NF (1600 or something) are just from pairing threads, probably even more.

I've exhausted myself trying to reasonably debate with them. Also, I said most, not all. Some of them are quite reasonable in accepting my reasons.

This is the real world Nick. Stereotypes are going to exist forever. I wish it didn't, because it really makes it hard for me to live than it already is.


You didn't say either most or all. That's what I mean about stereotyping because you aren't talking about a portion of the group.

And I gotcha beat on percentage of posts. tongue.gif It's gotta be at least 2/3 of my 900 posts (that count).

#1029 MagusKyros

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Sep 14 2007, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You didn't say either most or all. That's what I mean about stereotyping because you aren't talking about a portion of the group.


Ah, now I see where you got that from; however, at the bottom of my post is where I said it. I didn't say it at the beginning.

Well, in any case, nowadays its just fun to play with their heads now >.>

QUOTE
And I gotcha beat on percentage of posts. tongue.gif It's gotta be at least 2/3 of my 900 posts (that count).


Well I'll probably be catching up ;d.
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#1030 Rick (Bonta-kun)

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 07:33 AM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 14 2007, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe we're thinking of two different things then. Or what Nick said. tongue.gif

But just a general question: in order to be against a pairing, you can't want that relationship to progress at all, even as friendship? A bond can be furthered even if one believes it's not leading to romance in the future. While it's not specifically anti-, it's not for either in that context.

Yeah i may have interpreted Kyuubi425 wrong, i read it ages ago, or maybe it was another LAP that i didnt quite like, i dont remember lol

And what i meant was in that scene it shows they are getting closer, and while one may believe it might not lead to romance, it does improve the chances of romance, because im a firm believer that the closer you are to someone, the better chance of romance happening and lasting.

Btw, just out of curiosity, are you a SasuSaku fan? dont really care if you are, just i noticed your difference of opinion with everyone.


#1031 kawarimi

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Sep 13 2007, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saying that it's a mistranslation sounds more like it's claiming that the Japanese phrasing isn't the strongest possible even though it's been translated as arguably the strongest possible. It's not saying that because it's not the strongest possible phrasing that the feelings aren't genuine.

My own argument for that was based on what she did, not what she said.


I guess I don't see it translated as the 'strongest possible'. The main examples I found for the phrase (not in relation to feelings) translates in phrases like "I'm starving to death" vs. just "I'm hungry" (or "I'm dying of thirst" vs. just "I'm thirsty"). So something in the English phrasing should reflect that sense of 'to the point of being unbearable', or as I'm guessing in terms of feelings 'not able to keep inside' (if someone has found real examples relating to a love confession, let me know). I think how it's been translated in the anime/manga is accurate to reflect this since there isn't an English equivalent ("so much" works imo, and I can see "with all my heart" because from what I can get from the phrasing, if it's to a point of 'unbearable', since that word doesn't really make senese for feelings, my guess it's something along the lines of 'overwhelming' or 'bursting with feeling', which would mean you're full of that feeling, so "all of my heart" kind of reflects that, no? As I said, I don't see a direct translation, so there's a bit of flexibility in the actual phrasing, and I think the ones used, by those who know more of the language than me, and since I see nothing contradictory, are pretty good). I could see the argument if someone had translated it as "I'll love you forever!" because that's taking liberties that's not inherently present, but otherwise, I don't see how it's a mistranslation because I think they are pretty accurate in trying to convey the sense behind the phrasing in Japanese. If you think "I love you with all of my heart" means Sakura will always love Sasuke and can never love anyone as much ever again and if she ever makes another confession it won't be able to hold up against that, then I think that's a difference in connotation, not translation.

And as you said, the phrasing in English didn't affect your conclusions on the scene. I don't like it being called a mistranslation because that implies there's some new revelation of meaning on the scene, when I don't think anything has changed.

QUOTE (rick @ Sep 14 2007, 03:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah i may have interpreted Kyuubi425 wrong, i read it ages ago, or maybe it was another LAP that i didnt quite like, i dont remember lol

And what i meant was in that scene it shows they are getting closer, and while one may believe it might not lead to romance, it does improve the chances of romance, because im a firm believer that the closer you are to someone, the better chance of romance happening and lasting.

Btw, just out of curiosity, are you a SasuSaku fan? dont really care if you are, just i noticed your difference of opinion with everyone.


As I said, just because someone is against a pairing doesn't mean they have to be against the two individuals getting closer and gaining development in general. You can agree on what's in the scene, but still have differeing conclusions on what it'll mean for future development. I'm not disagreeing with you, just not sure I'm getting the point your trying to make. XD

Yes, I am. I've been trying to keep that out of my posts though and address points that are more pairing-neutral. I'm just here as a friend of Nick. wink.gif

#1032 Rick (Bonta-kun)

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 14 2007, 08:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As I said, just because one is against a pairing doesn't mean they have to be against the two individuals getting closer and gaining development in general. You can agree on what's in the scene, but still have differeing conclusions on what it'll mean for future development. I'm not disagreeing with you, just not sure I'm getting the point your trying to make. XD

Yes, I am. I've been trying to keep that out of my posts though and address points that are more pairing-neutral. I'm just here as a friend of Nick. wink.gif

I see what your saying, i guess what i was trying to say was with them getting so much closer day in day out, its quite easy and very understandable for them to develop romantic feelings for each other, or in Naruto's case, even stronger feelings lol. Anyway we may as well just agree to disagree or whatever the term is lol

Hmm, did nick bring you hear to try and clear out the crap NaruSaku arguments people believe? lol

Oh and this might be a weird question, but are you male or female? reason i ask is because i have yet to see a male SasuSaku supporter lol. I have thoughts on why, but they may be considered sexist so i wont post them.


#1033 Daidoji_Tangen

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 04:57 PM

I see your points about the translation. You may be right. Mizura may be right. Both of you may be right.

I don't know enough about Japanese to have an opinion. Mostly I argue the content anyways.

Anyways, I think I know how the confusion about you and/or someone else turning the 297 into a SasuSaku chapter/moment.

There was someone (I think a person was posting their arguements in this Thread actually) out there trying to turn it into a NaruHina moment. Because of that:

1. That post and yours merged in the mind of someone posting here causing the confusion.

2. After reading that post, we're a little wary of people turning it away from NaruSaku into some other pairing moment. Which could have caused the person

#1034 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE (kawarimi @ Sep 14 2007, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess I don't see it translated as the 'strongest possible'. The main examples I found for the phrase (not in relation to feelings) translates in phrases like "I'm starving to death" vs. just "I'm hungry" (or "I'm dying of thirst" vs. just "I'm thirsty"). So something in the English phrasing should reflect that sense of 'to the point of being unbearable', or as I'm guessing in terms of feelings 'not able to keep inside' (if someone has found real examples relating to a love confession, let me know). I think how it's been translated in the anime/manga is accurate to reflect this since there isn't an English equivalent ("so much" works imo, and I can see "with all my heart" because from what I can get from the phrasing, if it's to a point of 'unbearable', since that word doesn't really make senese for feelings, my guess it's something along the lines of 'overwhelming' or 'bursting with feeling', which would mean you're full of that feeling, so "all of my heart" kind of reflects that, no? As I said, I don't see a direct translation, so there's a bit of flexibility in the actual phrasing, and I think the ones used, by those who know more of the language than me, and since I see nothing contradictory, are pretty good). I could see the argument if someone had translated it as "I'll love you forever!" because that's taking liberties that's not inherently present, but otherwise, I don't see how it's a mistranslation because I think they are pretty accurate in trying to convey the sense behind the phrasing in Japanese. If you think "I love you with all of my heart" means Sakura will always love Sasuke and can never love anyone as much ever again and if she ever makes another confession it won't be able to hold up against that, then I think that's a difference in connotation, not translation.

And as you said, the phrasing in English didn't affect your conclusions on the scene. I don't like it being called a mistranslation because that implies there's some new revelation of meaning on the scene, when I don't think anything has changed.


The translation that I've heard used most often is Inane's which is the "I love you with all of my heart."

And the way that the translation usually gets used in debates is that it means that it's a forever-thing. dry.gif

#1035 Daidoji_Tangen

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE (rick @ Sep 14 2007, 07:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh and this might be a weird question, but are you male or female? reason i ask is because i have yet to see a male SasuSaku supporter lol. I have thoughts on why, but they may be considered sexist so i wont post them.


I supported SasuSaku back in the day. I was more of a NaruHina fan, but I did support SasuSaku on it's own merits and not just because it doesn't interefere with my pairing or the hurts another pairing.

Then I read Part II.

EDIT: A quick note. I didn't start liking NaruSaku because I thought it was more likely, but because it seemed sweeter, more realistic, and simply more pairing-like than my than my previous pairing choices.

#1036 Power06

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 05:16 PM

To sum it up, she blurted it out of desperation. She was coming to the realization that she was running out of options to get him to stay and she just became more desperate, by increasing her urgency.

#1037 Derock

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 06:06 PM

QUOTE (Power06 @ Sep 14 2007, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To sum it up, she blurted it out of desperation. She was coming to the realization that she was running out of options to get him to stay and she just became more desperate, by increasing her urgency.


Thats exactly the same thing I thought about it. Possibly its more like this from my point of view:

Sakura (mentally): He's leaving... I gotta do something... I'm running out of ideas for him to stay... *tells her desperation cry to Sasuke*

Sasuke (mentally): Nah. Still leaving... and your cries doesn't help either.

latest?cb=20140126021943

What's Happening with the Naruto series as of now!


#1038 Chidori Mistress

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 08:58 PM

Some people take the 'Goodbye scene' as a pause for SasuSaku others take it as the end.
Some people believe Sasuke has 'secret feelings' for Sakura and is in love with her, but have yet to back it with evidence that shows it is beyond just being a precious friend.

it's just the way you interpret things.

#1039 MagusKyros

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 09:54 PM

Sakura did have feelings for Sasuke. There is a heart next to her relationship bar from hers to Sasuke; however, Sasuke's to Sakura has nothing on it.

Proof 1 that SasuSaku was one-sided, and ain't gonna happen.

Proof 2 is the very same scene she admitted her love, she also admitted that Sasuke never tells her anything.
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#1040 Rick (Bonta-kun)

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 12:11 AM

I'm kind of undecided on whether Sakura loved him, im leaning more towards she did love him, but the only real doubt i have is that they hardly talked much and i hope this doesnt count as bashing, but i dont see what could have made sakura fall in love with Sasuke, they barely spoke enough to be friends, and i dont see any qualities that sakura could have found desirable, apart from looks and ninja skill, which are very shallow reasons. Anyway, the only reason i think she loved him is because she said it and databook said it lol





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