146 replies to this topic

[Miss Soupy]

I guess my biggest problem with the fainting is that kishimoto has gone out of his way to show how matured Naruto had become. I mean, against Pain he was like kage level, everybody loved him, he saved the village. And then this scene is so far the opposite of that; he faints under pressure. Yeah, he has a lot going on, a normal person would have a hard time coping. But kishi has sent Naruto from an extreme high to this extreme low. Does Naruto honestly look even close to hokage material right now? Not really. I would have preferred a more gradual climb rather than these huge jumps and falls in development.

But, I still think this is just a plot device for Naruto to get a clue within himself.

[RedDelicious]

I didn't like Kakashi calling Sakura's mission a death march.

I'm thinking three things here:
- Kakashi thinks that Sakura is so sad that Naruto didn't accept her love confession that she is committing suicide
- Kakashi was Sasuke's mentor, so he probably overrates him (and underrates her) a bit
- could the translation be a bit off ? Maybe it is a "deadly mission" instead of a "death march"?

So I guess Danzou was able to use genjutsu on the all mighty Sasuke?

As annoying as dark Sasuke can be, he's also good for the lulz. It never gets old seeing him smug and overconfident about winning a fight (against someone he considers weaker), then getting smacked around.

I would have preferred a more gradual climb rather than these huge jumps and falls in development.

It is a different topic, but Kishi did the gradual climb for Sakura falling out of love with Sasuke, and you get people claiming that they didn't see it coming, or that she must still be in love despite what she said.

I'm also thinking that reverting to 6-tails fox (during the Pein fight), although more dramatic and dynamic, is a similar to fainting, as Naruto is (subconsciously) escaping from emotional stress.

[Miss Soupy]

I'm thinking three things here:
- Kakashi thinks that Sakura is so sad that Naruto didn't accept her love confession that she is committing suicide
- Kakashi was Sasuke's mentor, so he probably overrates him (and underrates her) a bit
- could the translation be a bit off ? Maybe it is a "deadly mission" instead of a "death march"?

Well, Kakashi essentially said she has no chance and she would probably die. Which is like...uh, is Sakura really that stupid? Or, does Kakashi sincerely believe she is? Sounds more like part I Sakura in his mind than part II Sakura :/ But Kakashi never did get very close to Sakura, so I don't know, maybe kishi will actually develop their bond a little? Not getting my hopes up on that one XD

It is a different topic, but Kishi did the gradual climb for Sakura falling out of love with Sasuke, and you get people claiming that they didn't see it coming, or that she must still be in love despite what she said.

I'm also thinking that reverting to 6-tails fox (during the Pein fight), although more dramatic and dynamic, is a similar to fainting, as Naruto is (subconsciously) escaping from emotional stress.

I'm not sure how gradual Sakura's change of heart has been, honestly. Her feelings for Naruto have definitely been gradual, but her feelings for Sasuke are a bit more complicated at times.

And Naruto definitely did have a huge fall when he turned kyuubi against Pain, but think about how strong he was emotionally afterward. I didn't expect him to reach another breaking point after gaining such a huge boost from his father, the village, and Sakura.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I don't know, what's more evil, doing what you did to protect the lives of your village, or to seek out revenge on those who wronged you, even if it means the livs of thousands of innocents?

But I would agree Danzou is the evil of the two, as unlike Sasuke, he's the one making the decisions ordering the mahem, and even though part of him is doing everything to protect Konoha, his main purpose is to gain power himself, if he really cared for his village as much as he says he would not have abandoned it when Pain was invading.

Sasuke is a mere puppet in the show, his strings were being controlled by Itachi to make him stronger, then Orichimaru to get his body and now Madara to rule the world....he would have been great for Sasori's doll collection

I do think it's true to say. If anything, Sasuke is the lesser of two evils compared to Danzo, Harry, considering Danzo himself has all those Sharingan just so he can gain power for himself, and even if he wants to protect his vision of the Leaf, we know he has selfish ulterior motives, considering how he controlled Mifune just to be named the leader of the shinobi alliance at the Gokage Summit.

But in the long run, all Sasuke's life has been controlled by others; Itachi, Orochimaru, and Madara. He's never once chosen his own destiny... just had it driven by others. As you said, he's a puppet on a string. After killing Danzo, then trying to kill Koharu and Homura, what next? Is Danzo gonna have Sasuke sic vengeance on Naruto? I mean, let's face it, a lot of what Sasuke's done in the story up til this point has been because of his feelings of anger, hatred, and jealousy.

In the long run, I assume like in so many of Sasuke's fights, he's not gonna be able to win this one by himself. After all, he only bested Orochimaru because he was weakened, Deidara killed himself, Itachi was dying from his illness and his use of Susanoo, and the Kages just overwhelmed Sasuke from all sides and directions, and he was practically killing himself using Susanoo.

Hey, also, anyone get the feeling that Danzo's overpowered Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan with all those three-tomoe Sharingans he has? I mean, we saw Sasuke overcome Tsukuyomi when he battled Itachi, so what's to say having, like, 10 Sharingan means more power to counteract something as powerful as the Mangekyo Sharingan can be... and besides, we know that even as smart as he is, Sasuke, sometimes more than Naruto, is ruled by his emotions, and likely got overconfident and didn't think of Danzo managing to escape his clutches.

Also... just what does Madara WANT by killing Danzo? Revenge? Or something else? My guess is after this mess, Madara might take Danzo/Shisui's arm for himself to replace his own right arm after he had to tear it off thanks to Torune's nano Parasitic Insects.

And... could Danzo possibly have Mikoto and Fugaku's Sharingan on his arm??

Bryon

[Mugen no Neko]

And... could Danzo possibly have Mikoto and Fugaku's Sharingan on his arm??

That's a Sasuke mindphuck. Right there. That would be an interesting little twist

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

That's a Sasuke mindphuck. Right there. That would be an interesting little twist

I agree, and Danzo already has taken Shisui's eye after he was killed by Itachi. Besides, Danzo is the kind of man who would LOVE to mess with someone's head. Considering that he did that to his OWN subordinates with his Curse Mark.

Hey, I got something that may be a lil off-topic for you, guys. Do you think that Itachi only killed Shisui because Shisui found out about his passing information about the clan to the village, and to keep his secret, Itachi had to kill him?

Bryon

[Derock]

I agree that it looks unlikely Naruto will go back to Konoha now that he's passed out, unless Yamato carries him (which would make him vulnerable if enemies were to attack them on their way back). I'm not sure what will happen to Naruto now, but it's clear he needs a wise head or two to help put him back on track. I'm not convinced Kakashi will be able to stop Sakura in time, but we'll see.

If Naruto were to return to Konoha in that state, I'd put my money on Tsunade turning up (looking a little older), and giving Naruto some much needed maternal advice.

I highly doubt that Yamato will carry Naruto back to Konoha. As I said before, he fainted at a place where is very cold and its snowing outside (Iron Country). Not to mention he doesn't have the coat on. I don't know how long he stood outside right after Madara paid him a visit, but I do know is that staying outside without wearing something warm is not good. Plus, we had just seen him hyperventilating... carrying him back home which is very far away isn't the best idea because he will catch something far worse and there will be more issues. An unexpected scene indeed, but Kakashi and Yamato need to hurry up and take Naruto back inside.

[jinsterr]

Regarding Kakashi and Sai's comments, I personally don't see it as them belitting Sakura's ability. I think they're just more concerned for her safety.

I mean, think about it. A team-mate of yours is about to face a very dangerous opponent, and the likeliness of that team-mate surviving doesn't seem to be very high considering that opponent is quite powerful. I am not going after my friend because I think she's weak or that I am doubting her and her abilities. No, I am going after her because she is my friend and I don't want her to get hurt.

Edited by jinsterr, 18 December 2009 - 12:20 AM.

[True]

How many times has Naruto hit ‘rock bottom’ and supposedly supposed to mature? When he took a beating from Karui for the sake of Sasuke? When he got on his knees and begged the Raikage to ignore his crimes? Or now when he has actually fainted because he’s overwhelmed about having Sasuke on his mind? Kishi said himself that with the death of Jiraiya Naruto would ‘grow up’ and mature. He even showed signs of this when he didn’t kill Pain when he had the opportunity. His return from the sage training showcased his maturity and development as a character. Yet after that he has constantly downgraded with the mention of Sasuke. His development is severely inconsistent with the mention of Sasuke.

When he let Karui beat him up and take out her anger on what Sasuke had done he shows that he has no pride. He is willing to let someone else’s crimes and mistakes go and endure the punishment for it. When he got on his knees and begged the Raikage to not kill Sasuke. There’s the point that he is getting on his knees because he is a chunnin and showcasing his respect for a kage who is of higher level. But on the contrary he is getting on his knees not for his sake, but that of Sasuke’s. By doing this he is in essence showcasing Sasuke’s superiority over him and that he holds him in a higher regard that he is willing to sacrifice his own self respect for him. Not only does he lack pride, but respect for himself as well.

And now with this incident he passes out thinking of all the bad things happening to Sasuke. No it isn’t from the stress of everything that occurred prior to this event with Konoha/Sakura as all the panels mention Sasuke and his likelihood in it. He fainted because he can’t handle that everyone close to him doesn’t share the same opinion and put Sasuke on a pedestal as he has done for the last three years. When there is a threat of a war going on, his main focus is still on Sasuke. Naruto lacks pride, self-respect, and dignity. I have never seen a main character whose development has been hindered so badly whenever he shows glimpses of maturity and growth, they are instantly back tracked by instances such as this. He takes one step forward, only to take two steps back. Normally I would ignore this and just say its Kishi usual subtle yaoi fanservice for SasuNaru fans and having Naruto solidifying his role as the uke (the submissive person in the relationship) but I’ll get the ‘herp derp shounen manga’ excuse despite the numerous hints towards it.

But even barring that, this is not how a main character should be treated. He wants to be Hokage, a position that requires strength (which he has) and maturity (which he lacks). How many more times does Naruto have to go through phases in which his character and personality must be affected negatively that he realizes that there is a life outside of ‘saving’ Sasuke. When Sakura gave her confession to Sasuke in chapter 181 and the remark of “I’ll do anything for you” cemented her lowest state of maturity. Yet over the years she has developed and grown out of that fangirl state to now where she is able to put the righteous duty and justice over her own love. This is stable development. When it comes to Naruto the mention of Sasuke it causes his growth/development as a character to go so erratic and it’s gone on ever since part 2 started.

Kishi’s writing of his main character is really disappointing. He gets better occasionally but incidents such as this chapter prevent any real great progress of a character that was once someone I really liked, to now just wondering ‘how can he make it any worse?’. At this stage it is Sakura who has shown her maturity and growth, while Naruto is still stuck in the past. When will it be that he will become the child of destiny he is supposed to be and mature correctly. :True:

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

How many times has Naruto hit ‘rock bottom’ and supposedly supposed to mature? When he took a beating from Karui for the sake of Sasuke? When he got on his knees and begged the Raikage to ignore his crimes? Or now when he has actually fainted because he’s overwhelmed about having Sasuke on his mind? Kishi said himself that with the death of Jiraiya Naruto would ‘grow up’ and mature. He even showed signs of this when he didn’t kill Pain when he had the opportunity. His return from the sage training showcased his maturity and development as a character. Yet after that he has constantly downgraded with the mention of Sasuke. His development is severely inconsistent with the mention of Sasuke.

When he let Karui beat him up and take out her anger on what Sasuke had done he shows that he has no pride. He is willing to let someone else’s crimes and mistakes go and endure the punishment for it. When he got on his knees and begged the Raikage to not kill Sasuke. There’s the point that he is getting on his knees because he is a chunnin and showcasing his respect for a kage who is of higher level. But on the contrary he is getting on his knees not for his sake, but that of Sasuke’s. By doing this he is in essence showcasing Sasuke’s superiority over him and that he holds him in a higher regard that he is willing to sacrifice his own self respect for him. Not only does he lack pride, but respect for himself as well.

And now with this incident he passes out thinking of all the bad things happening to Sasuke. No it isn’t from the stress of everything that occurred prior to this event with Konoha/Sakura as all the panels mention Sasuke and his likelihood in it. He fainted because he can’t handle that everyone close to him doesn’t share the same opinion and put Sasuke on a pedestal as he has done for the last three years. When there is a threat of a war going on, his main focus is still on Sasuke. Naruto lacks pride, self-respect, and dignity. I have never seen a main character whose development has been hindered so badly whenever he shows glimpses of maturity and growth, they are instantly back tracked by instances such as this. He takes one step forward, only to take two steps back. Normally I would ignore this and just say its Kishi usual subtle yaoi fanservice for SasuNaru fans and having Naruto solidifying his role as the uke (the submissive person in the relationship) but I’ll get the ‘herp derp shounen manga’ excuse despite the numerous hints towards it.

But even barring that, this is not how a main character should be treated. He wants to be Hokage, a position that requires strength (which he has) and maturity (which he lacks). How many more times does Naruto have to go through phases in which his character and personality must be affected negatively that he realizes that there is a life outside of ‘saving’ Sasuke. When Sakura gave her confession to Sasuke in chapter 181 and the remark of “I’ll do anything for you” cemented her lowest state of maturity. Yet over the years she has developed and grown out of that fangirl state to now where she is able to put the righteous duty and justice over her own love. This is stable development. When it comes to Naruto the mention of Sasuke it causes his growth/development as a character to go so erratic and it’s gone on ever since part 2 started.

Kishi’s writing of his main character is really disappointing. He gets better occasionally but incidents such as this chapter prevent any real great progress of a character that was once someone I really liked, to now just wondering ‘how can he make it any worse?’. At this stage it is Sakura who has shown her maturity and growth, while Naruto is still stuck in the past. When will it be that he will become the child of destiny he is supposed to be and mature correctly. :True:

I do agree, True. I guess he still holds Sasuke as his friend in his mind, when he's seen the contrary so many times, like in the Final Valley, when they met again, and when Sasuke destroyed his Shadow Clone. I think it's mostly because he wants things to be the same again, when he should realize he can't have things the same. And it's because of that that it holds him back. Like with Sakura's confession. It wasn't just how she suddenly did it that pissed him off... it was the fact she wasn't how he wanted her to be, still madly in love with Sasuke.

Naruto is very mature at times, but when it comes to Sasuke, he's gotta wake up and smell the ramen. Sasuke's not gonna turn back into who he is. He just has shown his true face and dark side, and in the long run, all Naruto is doing is causing himself grief and pain, especially with the fact he feels anger for Sasuke, and yet he still tries to defend him AND to make excuses for his actions.

Bryon

[dl316bh]

*long post of things that are spot on*

You basically just said what I've been trying to for a while. In fact, if I have anything to add, it's that it feels like Naruto's gone backwards; his fixation on Sasuke isn't even moving or interesting anymore. It's getting downright creepy. Like a non-romantic version of an obsessive ex who won't let go despite the fact that you've moved on or changed. Unwilling to let that relationship change. Basically the "friend" equivilant of that. Sakura resembles more the person he should be than he does; he comes off as a kid with psychological issues who never grew up despite numerous instances where - as you mentioned - it looked like he would.

On top of all that, Naruto's even regressed in importance; this guy is supposed to be our hero, but he hardly even seems central to the plot moving forward anymore. The main narrative, fractured and scattered as it is, has moved forward without him having a lot of input for what feels like forever; even when he plays a central role in ending one threat, it's already spiraled into another that he'll have little to do with until it's time for said threat to be defeated. Even now, we've got other people holding down the world changing events on the front lines while Naruto is in the background angsting because the rest of the world will not conform to his view that Sasuke should not be taken out. At this point, it looks like the most he's going to do is drop in at the end - completely late to the party - to wrap up all the things that have been going on without him in the manga for the longest time, just like he's done at the end of the Team 10 arc and the fight with Pein. It's one thing to have a bunch of other characters involved in important events, but when your main character is absent for most of them - most of the time for silly reasons or because he's angsting - you've got a problem.

Naruto - the character and the manga - feels like it's all over the place to me.

Edited by dl316bh, 18 December 2009 - 03:25 AM.

[Prime]

Everyone on here is complaining so much as to what is going on. If you do not like it simply don't read it. I think the point is there is a much bigger picture. The story is about Naruto but there is a bigger problem in the background and that is Naruto/Sasuke Love/Hate Power/Pain Uchiha/Senju. I assume there is much more story to Sakura then we are aware of and will probably not learn of until later.

Sure Naruto is the hero he did stop pain. But is he ready to be Hokage yet? I don't think so. There are many strong armys in the real world but none of them matter unless peace is found and agree'd upon. You simply cannot live a life of war forever and not sacrafice things for the people living in that country. Also I think Naruto has been breaking down for a while and it has been kind of hinted at with Shikamaru saying they depend on naruto to much. I don't really see how people miss these simple plot devices then act all suprised as if something like this was not obvious.

As of right now it appears as if Sakura has no chances against Sasuke but we really never have saw much of her training so it is hard to know what has been going on in the background and kishi will simply fill us in when he feels like it. I suppose Naruto will end up in another sad state and have another big thing happen to bring him out of it. I assume it will be Sakura getting into trouble or something we cannot assume until the story has progressed more.

I don't think Sasuke is a bad person I just think he is confused. I think Danzo is deep down a good person also just he is willing to do things for peace others are not. Sometimes the worst enemy's are the friends with have and sometimes even ourselvs. The thing is the story pretty much outlines what will happen from the beginning. Naruto will save Sasuke as he has to because Orochimaru was not saved. Naruto will end up as hokage and of course get the girl. But nothing in life happenes without problems and Naruto is known for not giving up even when more problems face him.

[Hak]

On top of all that, Naruto's even regressed in importance; this guy is supposed to be our hero, but he hardly even seems central to the plot moving forward anymore. The main narrative, fractured and scattered as it is, has moved forward without him having a lot of input for what feels like forever; even when he plays a central role in ending one threat, it's already spiraled into another that he'll have little to do with until it's time for said threat to be defeated. Even now, we've got other people holding down the world changing events on the front lines while Naruto is in the background angsting because the rest of the world will not conform to his view that Sasuke should not be taken out. At this point, it looks like the most he's going to do is drop in at the end - completely late to the party - to wrap up all the things that have been going on without him in the manga for the longest time, just like he's done at the end of the Team 10 arc and the fight with Pein. It's one thing to have a bunch of other characters involved in important events, but when your main character is absent for most of them - most of the time for silly reasons or because he's angsting - you've got a problem.

Naruto - the character and the manga - feels like it's all over the place to me.

About the team 10 arc, despite Narutos input was short, it had in my opinion big input for the story in part 2, more than Pain fight. What I mean, it was really the first time in part 2 where it was shown just how much Naruto grew battle wise during his training trip with Jiraya.

[RedDelicious]

Also I think Naruto has been breaking down for a while and it has been kind of hinted at with Shikamaru saying they depend on naruto to much. I don't really see how people miss these simple plot devices then act all suprised as if something like this was not obvious.

Something about what you said made me think for baseball pitchers.
Occasionally you get these major league guys, who have proven to be among the best,
who suddenly can't even throw a strike (unless it is a lollipop down the middle of the plate).
It can go on for months. Its psychological, and sometimes these guys recover and become
aces again, sometimes not.

I guess it doesn't bother me as much to see Naruto break down, because (in my view) this
makes him more human/interesting, and less perfect/boring.

I've also met some people who react somewhat similar to Naruto and Sakura: calm/courageous/confident
during a crisis. But when everything is back to normal, they fall to pieces (for a short time) when it is safe
to release the fear/doubt/anger that was bottled up during the stressful times.

[Prime]

Something about what you said made me think for baseball pitchers.
Occasionally you get these major league guys, who have proven to be among the best,
who suddenly can't even throw a strike (unless it is a lollipop down the middle of the plate).
It can go on for months. Its psychological, and sometimes these guys recover and become
aces again, sometimes not.

I guess it doesn't bother me as much to see Naruto break down, because (in my view) this
makes him more human/interesting, and less perfect/boring.

I've also met some people who react somewhat similar to Naruto and Sakura: calm/courageous/confident
during a crisis. But when everything is back to normal, they fall to pieces (for a short time) when it is safe
to release the fear/doubt/anger that was bottled up during the stressful times.

Yep exactly. Sometimes I feel as if Naruto is directed to an age group unable to comprehend alot of it. Naruto is so metaphorical and once you follow all the signs it's pretty easy to understand what is going on. Like you said some of the pitchers come out of it basically "If you fall off the horse get back on". The writing of Naruto is amazing. The pool is just to deep for some people I think.

[Dreamer]

WSJ Naruto 477 preview translated by Shounensuki --Click here to view--

Preview:
Sasuke vs Danzō!! Is the darkness of Konoha being touched upon?

Edited by Uzumakikage, 18 December 2009 - 06:07 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

^ so if the preview says sasuke vs. danzou, we can probably expect the very opposite to happen

[True]

Yep exactly. Sometimes I feel as if Naruto is directed to an age group unable to comprehend alot of it. Naruto is so metaphorical and once you follow all the signs it's pretty easy to understand what is going on. Like you said some of the pitchers come out of it basically "If you fall off the horse get back on". The writing of Naruto is amazing. The pool is just to deep for some people I think.

Naruto is a shounen manga directed towards the demographic of young teenage boys. You go to a store in Japan and the only people who buy the Shounen mangas are little kids or otakus. So no the writing isn't something "deep" and "complex" that requires you to have a college degree to fathom. I'm allowed to criticize something I don't like. Very rarely do pieces of literature garner universal critical acclaim and I myself find faults in stories that I enjoy very much. The excuse of "don't like it, don't read it" is a poor response when you feel that someone is unjustifiably lambasting the story. Instead just counter argue my points that you feel are wrong and I will respond accordingly.

[Kyuudaime]

Dang True, you and your logical logic-ness.
Anyone thinking Danzou will win this?

[Prime]

Naruto is a shounen manga directed towards the demographic of young teenage boys. You go to a store in Japan and the only people who buy the Shounen mangas are little kids or otakus. So no the writing isn't something "deep" and "complex" that requires you to have a college degree to fathom. I'm allowed to criticize something I don't like. Very rarely do pieces of literature garner universal critical acclaim and I myself find faults in stories that I enjoy very much. The excuse of "don't like it, don't read it" is a poor response when you feel that someone is unjustifiably lambasting the story. Instead just counter argue my points that you feel are wrong and I will respond accordingly.

Yes exactly it's directed towards young teenage boys. But when you look at all the forums Naruto is on and read peoples comments you notice that people miss understand many many points of the story. I never said it took a college degree so I don't see where you come up with that comment. Sure you are allowed to criticize anything you wan't but people are saying they don't like Sasuke and that's fine you don't have to but without what is going on your missing the bigger picture without Sasuke and showing all the things there showing there is NO story. Because it is simply putting all the loose ends of the past together in an attempt to fix them now.

Think about what's going on for a second

-Sasuke/Madara talk
-Sasuke hates Konoha
-Naruto loves Konoha
-Naruto talks to father



All of these things tie together without one there is no reason for the other. I'm just saying if you don't like it don't read it because it's very simple you cannot criticize a main part of a story and say you don't like it. It's like saying you don't like the idea of pokemon. Well I hate to tell you if you don't like Pokemon you'r going to hate the story so why watch it? Same with Naruto people say they hate Sasuke but he's one of the main guy's in the story. So if you don't like him you'r going to be really disapointed if you continue reading the manga. Plus how can you only want to hear half of the story anyways? Some people are just into the fighting. Some are just into the NaruSaku. But EVERYONE should be into the main plot and that's what people are trying to down talk..