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Chapter 441


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#81 jworks

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 11:21 PM

wow, i've spent the last twenty minutes catching up on what going on here and have found some things you would have read from me if this guy had not already spoken:

QUOTE (Derock @ Mar 27 2009, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, don't you want the story to have a happy ending? I don't want to see an ending for Naruto not being able to achieve his goals and left the bad guys alone to continue what they're doing or better yet, he dies and story ends there. It will make things very depressing. Action stories like this needs some sort of happy ending.

As it said last chapter, Madara is the puppeteer. He can basically drop Nagato like a fly and continue on planning Akatsuki's goals as the mastermind.

I would also like to point out, as much as Pain was leader of the Akatsuki and acting "all God almighty by blowing up villages without any remorse", he's still a human being. More or less, coming to Konoha by attacking and capturing Naruto is a way of showing how Naruto can handle the battlefield by himself when the fight becomes too dangerous, plus showing that Pain wasn't the final villan of the series. I noticed that way back around the 300s when Kyuubi mentioned Madara's name (even though, we haven't heard of Pain's name yet back then). It brought certain theories that someone was behind all of this as the great mastermind which we now realize it was Madara.


yes. And...well...He said all that i really give a damn about.

QUOTE (Derock @ Mar 27 2009, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
EDIT: As much we are talking about Nagato about to die, and the drama with Hinata, this was a good chapter. As many people haven't reread, Naruto actually matured even more in this chapter. Scared that he thought he destroyed his village in 6-Tailed mode which Katsuyu reassured him that he didn't and then when Pain blurted out Sasuke's name, Naruto didn't respond like he usually did. Then he became badass in the fight (not that badass as Ichigo was in this week's Bleach chapter).


hell yes.

I beleive Naruto realized the magnitude of the situation, and in doing so, took it all upon himself for, what is seemed like, the sake of the village and its inhabitants.

Genius (Tensai)

Edited by jworks, 27 March 2009 - 11:25 PM.


#82 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 11:43 PM

QUOTE (Jenskott @ Mar 27 2009, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He constantly asks her out, he's tried spying her as she was naked, he was shocked/horrified when he learnt he'd hurt her and vowed never releasing Kyuubi again, he blushed when she stated she was going to feed him and he got very angry when they got interrupted...

Basically, his behavior towards her hasn't changed, but he's more mature.

He's the guy never gives up. Why should he giving up his goal when he's, in fact, SUCCEEDING? Sakura and he are closer than ever.

Do you want another example? The relationships chart tells Hinata feels admiration for Naruto, but her profile tells she yearns for him. The chart also tells Sakura likes Sasuke and is worried about Naruto, but her profile tells she didn't really love Sasuke and she's grown feelings for Naruto whose nature she's trying figuring out.

Sakura's confession and Lee's confession come to mind. There's no SasuSaku -in fact it got worse-, and there's no SakuLee so far in the story.

You speak such epic truth, that I simply had to quote you :3

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 12:57 AM

There is ONE possible explanation for Pain not killing Hinata outright...

Hinata managed to move just enough so he would miss her heart, or through his aim off with some kind of rotation technique. Granted, getting stabbed in the lung or kidney isn't something one can just shrug off, but they're not automatically fatal. Everyone is treating this as though twenty minutes have passed, when in reality probably only a minute passed in the manga.

Not to mention, Pain did give a brief monologue saying "This is what it was like when Konoha nin killed my parents right in front of me..." Usually, the villain gives the speech before killing the victim. So, I guess it's not THAT out there, but we need to see what happened from Hinata's point of view

#84 True

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:12 AM

QUOTE (True @ Mar 24 2009, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She gets blasted directly by a Shinrai Tensei.


Shes in no state to defend herself and looks knocked out. Pain goes for a stabbing right in front of her, but it is done off screen.

Can't really see how she survived that. I don't call it a plot hole, I see it as a cop out. We were lead to "believe" she had died, yet it was only done as a plot device to turn Naruto into the six tails.

Pretty sure she couldn't have dodged that. Even if it was done off screen, the implied effect is there.

#85 zig-zag-zombies

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:30 AM

You know, I really liked this chapter. When Naruto threw the second Rasen Shuriken in the shadow of the first, it reminded me of the very first fight they had with Zabuza. At first, Naruto had been too afraid to move! Compare that to now - Naruto is fighting an impossibly strong opponent and keeping a clear head. He is defending the entire village. It seems to me that he's really grown into his dream of becoming Hokage. As has been said in earlier posts, Naruto matured a lot in this chapter and I think that everyone should acknowledge that.

I'm really not too worried about NaruHina becoming a reality - I really don't think it's going to happen. I'm a bit perturbed that Hinata survived, but it makes sense with the fact that the younger generation is rising rather than falling. Still, I think that Hinata's confession was noble. She jumped out there and tried to fight for Naruto even knowing that she would probably lose her life. It was a growing experience for her and it needed to happen. After spending the entire story sitting on the sidelines just thinking about Naruto, she finally did something about it. I don't believe that Naruto reciprocates those feelings, but Hinata needed to tell Naruto how she felt in order to resolve her crush. At this point, she's tried and she can just move on now - before this, it wouldn't have made sense for Hinata to just suddenly drop her crush.

I think Kishimoto knows what he's doing, and either way, we really have no right to complain. We didn't come up with the story and we're not the ones writing it. I'm sure he has it all planned out and he wouldn't spend so long developing the relationship between Naruto and Sakura if he didn't plan on taking that relationship somewhere.

I think that the medic-nin they find to heal Hinata will be Sakura. It just makes sense with the flow of the story. I want to see Sakura's reaction.

#86 Cloud

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:39 AM

QUOTE (zman170 @ Mar 27 2009, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To be honest though, i think kishimoto is planing some sort of twist with this whole Hinata thing. Pain, one of the most deadly nin in the Naruverse, wouldn't leave someone as weak as Hinata alive UNLESS he had some sort reason for it. Maybe Pain's chakra will slowly eat at Hinata untill she dies, allowing Hinata to indure the full pain he felt in his life. Maybe Pain's chakra inside of Hinata will allow him to see what she sees, thus relaying info on Konoha to Pain. Maybe Pain was just so insulted by Hinata's weakness that he thought having her live with her weakness would more painful than dying a quike death.

Who is to know? But one thing is for sure. He wouldn't leave her alive unless he had a good reason and i have a feeling the answer will be revialed soon.



.....

Pain's chakra only disrupts another's. It won't give him uber mind control and mind seeing powers. The only reason he let her live was to trigger the nine-tails, since he wanted to see who was more powerful.

I don't think there's that big of a twist.

#87 Sora no Kitsune

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:49 AM

Well like i said, its hard to tell right now. I don't think him stabbing her was only a ploy to trigger kyuubi. Pain may be crazy, but hes not crazy enough to let a person like Hinata live. There has to be some bigger reason for her being stabbed and living then just her staying alive. Having her live, just to be turned down by Naruto and return to being a rarly mentioned secondary character would be a big waste of time. There has to be some meaning and relivence to her living and we probably won't find out till sometime in the next few weeks.

Edited by zman170, 28 March 2009 - 01:50 AM.


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#88 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:58 AM

QUOTE (zig-zag-zombies @ Mar 27 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that the medic-nin they find to heal Hinata will be Sakura. It just makes sense with the flow of the story. I want to see Sakura's reaction.

I'd love to see that as well happy.gif

#89 Cloud

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 02:01 AM

QUOTE (zman170 @ Mar 27 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well like i said, its hard to tell right now. I don't think him stabbing her was only a ploy to trigger kyuubi. Pain may be crazy, but hes not crazy enough to let a person like Hinata live. There has to be some bigger reason for her being stabbed and living then just her staying alive. Having her live, just to be turned down by Naruto and return to being a rarly mentioned secondary character would be a big waste of time. There has to be some meaning and relivence to her living and we probably won't find out till sometime in the next few weeks.



Clearly, you haven't been watching the signs. I'm not trying to sound mean here, but...

http://onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/

Kishimoto is copping out by NOT killing Hinata, and using her as another trigger to start the Kyuubi from taking over. It wouldn't be a big waste of time, having her live and seeing how Naruto reacts to her confession is part of the story telling.

You're looking way too deep into this, there won't be a major twist with her.

#90 Pite

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 02:59 AM

Ed. I think what he meant by shadow shurinek is that Naruto hid one RasenShuriken under/behind another. Because Naruto can be seen out of his sage mode in one of the frames.
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#91 Kyuudaime

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 03:51 AM

QUOTE (Sakura Blossoms @ Mar 27 2009, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd love to see that as well happy.gif

Yeah, and watch her be like "Oh, okay, good luck with Naruto!"
And Kishi just laughs at us...

Anyone else sometimes wonder if Kishi is completely oblivious to these pairing things?

#92 jworks

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:15 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Mar 27 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Clearly, you haven't been watching the signs. I'm not trying to sound mean here, but...

http://onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/

Kishimoto is copping out by NOT killing Hinata, and using her as another trigger to start the Kyuubi from taking over. It wouldn't be a big waste of time, having her live and seeing how Naruto reacts to her confession is part of the story telling.

You're looking way too deep into this, there won't be a major twist with her.


what is he 'copping out' of? this is not rhetorical, i really want to know what most everyone believes Kishi is copping out of.

And no, Hinata's survival may not be a twist, but it could be a large display of newly developed maturity for Naruto and Hinata to have a talk about this all. When wrapping up a story, the author usually will tie up loose ends. Hinata's sideline love for Naruto is a loose end.

#93 Cloud

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:18 AM

Copping out as he hasn't got the balls to kill off Hinata.

He's scared of the fan reactions. He's done this to a few of the Rookie Nine before.

#94 jworks

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:35 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Mar 27 2009, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Copping out as he hasn't got the balls to kill off Hinata.

He's scared of the fan reactions. He's done this to a few of the Rookie Nine before.


How do you know this? Its been my observation that every fan here wants her dead.

don't tell me because he has done this before and reading the manga informs you of something, when it can in no way justify an assumption such as yours.

It sounds like your believing only what you want to believe and what others are telling you to believe. That is only what it sounds like, if you don't want to believe that is what you are doing that is fine.

maybe I am doing it too, but when i consciously think about it, i feel like i am leaving most of it in the air and leaning towards the most logical.

#95 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:42 AM

QUOTE (Kurosaki Ichigo @ Mar 27 2009, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, and watch her be like "Oh, okay, good luck with Naruto!"
And Kishi just laughs at us...

Anyone else sometimes wonder if Kishi is completely oblivious to these pairing things?

Um, yeah right :rolleyes:

And he's not oblivious. The man doesn't live under a rock, and he's very much a part of the technological era, with doing stuff like going online and reading websites, so he's very much aware of what are the top pairings, for his fans in both the Eastern and Western part of the world. And not surprisingly in Japan, that means SasuNaru >.>

#96 Cloud

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 04:45 AM

QUOTE (jworks @ Mar 28 2009, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How do you know this? Its been my observation that every fan here wants her dead.

don't tell me because he has done this before and reading the manga informs you of something, when it can in no way justify an assumption such as yours.

It sounds like your believing only what you want to believe and what others are telling you to believe. That is only what it sounds like, if you don't want to believe that is what you are doing that is fine.

maybe I am doing it too, but when i consciously think about it, i feel like i am leaving most of it in the air and leaning towards the most logical.


In what way is my comment an assumption? huh.gif

Neji - Critical condition after Sasuke Retrieval Arc, not dead.

Chouji - Critical condition after Sasuke Retrieval Arc, not dead.

Lee - half dead after Chuunin battle with Gaara, not dead.

Not every fan here wants her dead, but we thought she would be deceased after Pain stabbed her. That's what Kishi copped out on.

Using her as another trigger to have the fox come out.

So if reading the manga doesn't help solve answers, then what am I doing? The manga is the source where we all go to clarify issues.

Edit: I don't want Hinata dead, but these "fatal injuries" are kinda getting old now.

Edited by Sakura Blossoms, 28 March 2009 - 05:00 AM.


#97 dl316bh

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 05:04 AM

Let's not forget to add Gaara to that list. Resurrection no jutsu. Yeah.

What epic failure.

Edited by dl316bh, 28 March 2009 - 05:04 AM.

bd5.jpg

#98 catsi563

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 05:23 AM

Hi Jworks Maybe I cna shed a little light on the topic for you.

bear with me a moment. Grnated this is my onw opinion but i think it covers things nicely.

the main issue msot people seem to be taking is that Kishimoto-sensei seems unwilling or unable for some reason to provide deaths for the members of the rookie 9 for some reason.

the common examples given above are Lee, Gaara, Choji, Neji, and now hinata.

Now the thing to understand from my perspective is that I dont believe him to have "copped out" myself.

My reasoning is that untill Hinatas sacrafice. all the prior mentioned people have had moments of near death (choji, neji), or near crippling (lee), or out right death (gaara). where they were saved or brought back with no consequences.

the key though to understand is that each of those moments as I see them though was actually a neccesary survival done in an appropriate context and also that none of those characters would have served the story by dying.

Neji and choji were critical but not dead, and their survival was easilly explainable by virtue of the medical teams sent out by tsunade to pursue the genin. in a way Tsunade assured their survival in that regard.

In Lees case the context was doen in two points. one being Tsunades skill as a medic, and two being lees determination to undergoe a surgery that could have killed him in order to pursue his dream of being a shinobi. LEes successful surgery was needed so he could resume his carreer and interfere in the fight with Kimimaro so Naruto could safely pursue Sasuke.

In gaaras case yes he did die. but he was brought back with a one time ressurection Jutsu that wont be repeated in the series. The point of bringing Gaara back was to showcase the theme of Narutos ability to change people (chiyo making a sacrafice of such magnatude for the kazekage) and to show the passing on of the will of fire and the oldergenerations legacy to the younger generation ((chiyo passing on to Sakura to surpass Tsunade, and for Naruto to become a hokage like no other)

so Gaaras death and subsequent ressurection had both context and emotional resonance.


Now we come to the problem child in this equation. Hinata.

I for one found Hinatas sacrafice perfectly in context with the themes of the manga, and an amazing and highly emotional moment as well as a strong and well written jump of development for a character that quite frankly had no relevance ot the plot since the chunin exam arc.

Had she died immediately or (((barring future chapters)) she dies in Sakuras arms. then the scene would carry a powerful emotional context and resonance for not just Hinata and Naruto, but for multiple characters (( the rookie 9 team guy etc)) but also Konoha as a whole ((especially the Hyuuga clan))

the moment becomes one chalked full of emotional ressonace and can be used as a powerful motviational factor and rallying cry for future chapters as they attempt to avenge Hinata a sweet gentle soul taken too early by a madman.

this would cement her relevance to the plot as well as jump start several plots in the story (naruto and Sakura , the rookie 9 growing up etc)

the issue in question lies in that If ((And thats still a big if)) Hinata survives this moment. then the entire scene becomes a meaning less plot device to send naruto over the edge, and renders her character ((who ahs jsut had this remarkable moment of courage)) into an irrrelevant secondary character whose sole use was as a plot device to make naruto go kyuubi.

the entire scene loses any emotional resoance it had and begins to feel tacked on jsut to give Hinata a chance to look fancy for a moment.

IF thats the case then any nameless chunin, genin or civivlian could have fallen under Peins sword and the effect would have been the same.

one could argue that Naruto was allready close to the edge at that moment. ((village destroyed, jirayia dead, friends hurt, Peins filling his head with doubt, no answers to his questions readilly avialiable))

all these thinsg would be overwhelming enough for anyone much less a poor guys whose been alone all his life. so a callous brutal murder right in front of him would be jsut the thing to push him over the edge.

but anyone would have filled the role nicely with no need for expositon ot emotional baggage added in.

however KIshimoto sensei deliberately drew an ENTIRE PAGE where Pein took his time and stabbed Hinata with a leathal implement.

this brings up another issue which is the stormtrooper syndrome. Where the bad guys can kill swathes of Normals ot seocndary characters, But god forbid they go up against the hero ro his friends, and suddenly they couldnt hit water if they fell out of a boat in the ocean.

So were left ((for the moment )) to beleive that Pein, one of the most powerful ninja in the village capable fo taking down Kakashi Hatake one of the most dangerous jonin in the world, and capable of beating Naruto in Sage mode ((he had him pinned and ready to be slaughtered at a moments notice)) somehow is incapable of stabbing HInata through the heart when she is down unconscious and likely suffering broken bones and internal injuries from being slammed into the ground at high speed?

this is where the main issue is lying with people right now. this sudden confession in an instance that should have the most emotional resoance of any scene in the manga to date.

has been reduced to a mere plot device of convenience.

this is whats driving many people ((myself included )) crazy. weve had an incredible story to this point and suddenly BAM were hit with this.


Now It shoudl be noted that I still am withholding judgement untill I see how he resolves this. she may still die from ehr injuries, she may survive but pass on her confession and will to sakura. either of which would be acceptable to me.

but what would not be acceptable to any reasonable fan would be for her to be cast back into obscurity again and for her sacrafice to go to waste as a mere plot device. its absurd honestly.

I hope this helps you understand a little better. and we can all hope Kishimoto sensei one ups us all in the next few chapters cant we?
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#99 ciardha

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 05:42 AM

QUOTE (UzumakiEdward85 @ Mar 27 2009, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sakura is probably still looking for Yamato anyways because as far as they know Naruto is still in 8 tails mode.


I figure it will be Ino that heals Hinata, sounded like her injuries were something any medic nin could handle and Ino wasn't worn out healing people like Sakura and even moreso Tsunade. I seriously doubt Tsunade will heal Hinata, she's in a deep healing sleep right now. Which is why Sakura is acting Hokage. As you said Sakura is looking for Yamato. Ino was still in the ruins and had just received the evacuation orders. That would make her the most likely one. And it would give Ino a bit of a spotlight with her medic nin abilities, giving her a chance to save someone when she couldn't save either Asuma or Shizune.

I'm hoping we'll see Hana (Kiba's older sister, the village vet) healing Shima (Ma frog). She hasn't been seen in part 2 (it was kind of strange she wasn't with Kiba and Tsume. But if she was busy healing all the injured animals, that would make sense.) Speaking of animals- where's Tonton?

I'm also hoping someone (Team Gai?) finds poor Kakashi. It hasn't been definitely stated that he's dead, and as he was shown talking to his father at a campfire after his supposed death, I think he's still alive- but at such a minimal level- in a coma with his body only supporting his autonomic systems that no one can sense him. I think the campfire was symbolic of the tiny amount of life force he has left. He may be so far down in a coma that his body will have to recover a bit of chakra before he can even be healed. (Somewhat similar to the state Sasuke was after Itachi beat him up in part 1 of the manga)
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#100 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 05:48 AM

catsi563, your above post epic rocked wow.png

You brought up all my major issues with the current manga plot and its characters, and expressed them perfectly happy.gif




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