211 replies to this topic

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Good moments, yes, though this sort of action is pretty much what is happening in Sakura's Confession. It's another moment of protecting Naruto, while not fully understanding him.

Damn, that is dumb thing to say.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Slightly rude, but I'll forgive you and elaborate:
 
Sakura's attempt at protecting Naruto fails because she misinterprets both why he is wanting to save Sasuke and the extent of the promise. Thus the manipulation fails, both because Naruto can see through the lie, and that Sakura, nor Sai for that matter, understood Naruto's motivations.

You can keep your forgivness to yourself, there is a extent to how badly one can understand what he/she sees. Keep writing such stuff all you want, your fanfiction is still only fanfiction.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

This dismissal is silly when you do not back up the claim.

Literally every person here did backed up on how you're wrong. But that's okay, keep the crusade, it's important to you, it seems.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 03 October 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Damn, that is dumb thing to say.

 

Yeah, since Sakura was thinking about Naruto and wanting to protect him after what almost happened, but Naruto was so adamant on saving Sasuke himself as well as keeping his promise he failed to see it, which is why I think things fell apart slowly; the fact Team Kakashi was losing its trust and not being able to have the kind of trust that they had when Sakura told Naruto about Orochimaru giving Sasuke the Curse Mark in the Forest of Death.

[Yyubie]

Aaaaannndd as expected , non debate thread turn into a debate thread because of Umbridge

[Bail o' Lies]

Aaaaannndd as expected , non debate thread turn into a debate thread because of Umbridge

And yet we are suppose to believe that she is an NS fan, because she says so. Despite spending the last few pages saying pretty much, "Sakura has never cared about Naruto in the slightest, and he never cared about anyone other then Hinata."

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 October 2017 - 06:47 PM.

[Kagomaru]

And yet we are suppose to believe that she is an NS fan, because she says so. Despite spending the last few pages saying pretty much, "Sakura has never cared about Naruto in the slightest, and he never cared about anyone other then Hinata."

Maybe in Analyzer's bizarro world,  demeaning and marginalizing NS moments is her definition of support (which corroborates with my theory that she is a cult worshipper of Cthulhu).

Edited by Kagomaru, 03 October 2017 - 07:08 PM.

[My Living Curse]

Maybe in Analyzer's bizarro world,  demeaning and marginalizing NS moments is her definition of support (which corroborates with my theory that she is a cult worshipper of Cthulhu).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

 
Yeah, which is the great thing about it for sure; she knew Naruto had been working hard since they became a team, and she just wanted to protect his dream, something no one else would do, just like when she performed CPR on him after Kurama was extracted from him and he was dying.

It's funny how, even though the war arc was written badly, we could still see very clearly how Sakura was thinking about Naruto most of the time. She was worried about him using a lot of chakra, she was healing him when talking with Minato and when went as far as to keep his heart beating, all while thinking only of him and what he aspired for.

Now that I'm a married man, I actually appreciate NS more than before, even though it may not be canon in the author's story. Why? Because in the end that type of friendship is the foundation of a long-lasting relationship.

[Illnevergiveup3]

My first post on this thread remains untouched besides a baseless claim of "revisionist theory'. I'm content with that.

Uhm, maybe because ThroughWithLove already said that this isn't a debate thread and most of us on here respects that. Believe me, if this wasn't on this thread I or any one of us would have already ripped that kitten apart like a Shark Attack.

[Illnevergiveup3]

You're welcome to copy-paste it onto the debate thread.

by all means, do the honors. It will become a feeding frenzy.

[ThroughWithLove]

If any of us bothered to address her revisionist history, it'd go a little something like this:

 

[rikakim94]

I have to admit I liked narusaku more before the land of iron arc. After the poorly written confession and other stupid stuff my love for naruto and narusaku started to slowly die down.  

[NarutoUzumaki01]

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.
 
It's still disappointing. Even all this time later.

I know that some people here maybe have read manga differently, but this is how I saw ending:
 
For Naruto: he was supposed to be MC who goes through troubles with his own streght, ties that he developed and etc. Even "child of prophecy" that supposedly contradicts "there is no fate" that Naruto vowed, was nicely fit in by previous generation, and Naruto really looked like revolutionary, he forgave Pein and didn't choose revenge, Nagato coudn't do that until the very end. So in the very end what did he ended up?
- Child of Prophency turnded from "he will change the world" to he was reincarnation of cool strong dude. [fail]
- Naruto's own streght and etc was corrupted by that plotline, in the end he only got all those as heritage from son of So6p. [fail]
- Jiraiya's legacy "find an answer to peace" - did Naruto really found peace? "You must endure as shinobi" is that answer? Jiraiya left village after a war and all his enduring. [fail]
- Romantic subplot - it primarily doesn't matter who Naruto ends up in this case, we got a character that Naruto loved since as early as ch. 3 be it Sakura, Sasuke, Ichigo, Goku or whoever it is. Where is resolve of this plotline? We never saw clear ending of it, either Naruto dropping his feeling altogether or his confession to a person be it succes or failure. [fail]
- Foreshadowing - tons, dozenth of moments, from Tsunade-Jiraiya dynamics, Jiraiya's romantic subplot where Naruto coud've succed as the story goes "he succeds where other fails", Obito that loved Rin, that got crush on "cool kid" Kakashi, mirroring Team 7, to the very Minato and Kushina, and to the very traits of Sakura being similar to Kushina/Tsunade, and famous speach "find somebody like your mother", Kishimoto greatly executed years of deveopment subtle plotlines by saying "lol it all was red herring", yeah, great writing right there <_< [grand fail]
- Jinchuriki/Biju problem - what? Who? Where? [Insert any information about 9 massive creatures that can destroy villages with one attack] [fail]
- Saving friend (Jiraiya's failure), well, Jiraiya coudn't save Orochimaru from going into darkness, Naruto in the end made to draw if fight with Sasuke. Is that it? [okay? I guess]
- Circle fo Hatred - an ill blood between Senju and Uchiha. In the end it was Naruto and Sasuke fight that ended up in draw. Going by the story that repeated itself, you can count by yourself how many members of Uchiha setled once their ass was beatdown by somebody, for those who are lazy, I will count: Madara after lose to Hashirama - created plan that nearly destroyed 5 nations, Obito after death of Rin - you know what he caused. Itachi - by authors logic, his almost saint, but he really didn't got conflict, as he was pictured to be shinobi first prior his clan/family. And Sasuke supposed to change because... ??? What prevents Sasuke from going to collecting all the Biju in himself or using them as chakra source to try and dominate world as he wanted? ["No answer given"]

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

1: The Child of Prophecy isn't really referring just to Naruto. Nagato fits it, and Minato, and even Sasuke. They all push it forward, merely, Naruto completes it. I do get the argument that it kind of takes away the hard work, augmented by powers he gets he didn't work for. That said, he did change the world, so your point is off.

2: Naruto did do this through his own strength ultimately. It was his will and ability to get through Sasuke that ultimately ended the conflict, not flashy new powers.

3: Yes, Naruto found peace. It's not "perfect peace" as some people had argue for. I'd counter it's impossible and impractical, and instead Kishimoto shows a practical approach, cooperation and unity to preserve peace to the best extent.

4: Honestly, we did. Sakura loved Sasuke, very clearly. We had clear foreshadow of NH happening, and this isn't even talking about the expanded material coming to detail the story explicitly. 

5: Okay, but these parallels are poor or not even indicators of that. Each triangle for one, ends differently, and both Naruto and Sakura parallel Kushina. Nor is succeed where I failed have anything to do with romance. Obito/Rin doesn't even fit. Obito goes mad. You -don't- want to parallel with Obito/Rin. 

6: They're free. There's zero indication they would continue their destruction. See end of cycle of hatred.

7: It is okay and built up to, yes. 

8: Because Sasuke changed. That -is- the answer. It's not that complicated. 

I'm glad that you gave an opinion, but I'm not intrested in it, okay? 

[Namaenash]

Yes - there were themes that Kishimoto was obliged to fill in hooking the reader in the premise of the story. Promises or 'contracts' he'd made with the reader. The problem is the promises were not fulfilled. And not by any of the characters. None of their arcs were resolved. And I don't mean that they were resolved counter to how I wanted them. The very themes the story was built upon were not resolved by Neji's death nor Naruto's pairing with Hinata nor Sasuke/Sakura's rekindling of a relationship and subsequent life paths.

 

The story ended, yes, and it ended in a way that made some people happy. But the main hero's goals and motivations were glossed over or forgotten. The dark hero's redemption story (which could have carried the underwhelming hero's journey) was half-hearted and ultimately unconvincing. Even Sakura's evolution might have saved it, as she was the last part of the three main characters, but she was abandoned completely. So there is no one left to connect the ending of the story to the motivations of the beginning.

 

It's still disappointing. Even all this time later. 

 

Precisely.

 

Though, I still think that the first part of this franchise up till Pein's Arc was quite cohesive. It has its narratives and structures; it has its pace and flow. One might get acquainted with this franchise when Pein's Arc started, and subsequently, when one clears the backlog to read backwards till chapter one, it'll still makes sense structure-wise and theme-wise. Up till Pein's Arc.

 

Sidetrack a bit, there's this romance novel that I fell in love immediately when I read it in 90's, called "The Notebook" by Nicholas Sparks. The theme of the story was something along the lines of "Every great love starts with a great story." Not sure the exact phrase, but it's something along these lines.

 

True enough, I think if you correlate such theme with the romance subplot that appears in many shounen manga; you'll start to realise that the romance subplot is almost always a side-effect of a good storytelling. It just flows naturally. Take a look at [Spoiler Warning!] FMA, Slam Dunk, Yu Yu Hakusho, Tekken Chinmi, Inuyasha, GTO, and many others... Romance subplot present not to dilute the main theme, but rather, a side-effect to enrich a well-designed story structure. (links were just for supporting my arguments, don't forget to buy the actual manga and support the author folks!).

 

My initial thought about Sakura's confession was "This teenage girl was so confused." From the initial build up part in the tent with Shizune, up till she gave her the sweet smile when Naruto sleep by the end of the arc. Of course, by the end of the manga, her confession came as "What on earth was that all about? haha."

 

I suppose "Show, don't tell" is a common guidelines to get the reader to experience the story through words, thoughts, and feelings rather than through the author's summarization and depiction. You'll get these a lot with NS.

 

With the ending and new generation manga, NH/SS fandom are constrained with canon depiction of unhappy marriages. Yuck. It is ironic that the publisher decided not to entertain NH/SS after the ending anymore. Kishimoto, was literally spitting on the face of NH/SS with the backstory he created right from the get go in Gaiden series.

 

How much build up, moments and fan services that NH/SS got after the ending? The author literally set a backstory of NH/SS as husband-wife and parents the exact opposite of what they wished them to be. Happy marriage? doesn't look like it. Happy family? nope, far from it. Presence husband and father figure? yeah right.

 

Is there any backdrop story in the new manga where Naruto show his affection to his wife (directly or indirectly, or anything remotely similar to the way Minato show his affection to Kushina)? Does Hinata's love to her children is anything remotely close to how Kushina was depicted? (in manga, or in Road to Ninja).  Is there any panel in the new manga where Sasuke thought about Sakura in whatever journey he set off to? I don't read the manga, but I won't be surprised if there isn't any of these instances.

 

Btw, I chose Minato and Kushina simply because they are the 'standard' that Kishi set as 'perfect couple' in the whole universe of Naruto manga. This is probably the only couple that was depicted as 'problem-free'.

 

As it stand today, I believe NH/SS will never ever get the luxury of build up that NS had in the past; not even when they combine it with the first 72 chapters of the series.

 

The reason is simple: the publisher has learned that NH/SS proven to be not important to the bottom line. Let alone the chance to help them get the series back to the top. Whether or not NH/SS present in the panels will not help their sales bottom line back to where it was, so, why even bother? Might as well stir the pot right? Who knows the old NS group will buy the series again.

 

There are various other means to spin off Boruto series; yet, they choose the 'unhappy family' route and 'uncaring parents' route. These nonsense are not needed if they want to get a fresh batch of readers. At most, similar tragedy that happened to Minato/Kushina would be the chosen route instead of showing Naruto's and Sasuke's miserable marriage life.

 

 

 

Reply for the bolded part: That was the reason. The pairings killed the franchise because of those fans who were whining and crying about a certain female character who didn't even do anything (but also blame the anime team for adding silly and unnecessary stuff for bias and favoritism for them to see fit) and somehow took advantage of that with a movie to knock the actual female character away from the spotlight. 

 

I'm going to have to say this and say this right now: these so-called "fans" are not really fans at all. Sure, they will be criticism (everything has that!), but who in their right mind wants to threaten an author just because a certain fictional character/event/pairing/plot, w.e. is in their dislikes and be mad about it to the point that violence somehow have to be involved? And you want things YOUR way by yapping/typing about said stuff?! That's what fanfiction is all about. If you want a specific person/pairing in mind as "somehow" the author doesn't see your line of thinking, go do your own thing instead of threatening/complaining about b.s. Write your OWN goddamn story, oh wait, most people don't like or have original ideas /sarcasm. All of this could've been avoided and Naruto could've been a "successful" cash-cow series and ended in a good note.

 

Initially, I came here for NaruSaku (as I said back in the day as main "coupling" but then I saw what they had for romance, development) however, I did said I came to this fandom not for my love of ninjas, Japan, etc. but for the themes that Masashi tried to elaborate. Goals and motivations for Naruto, the actual main character. However, themes of the story just went out the window for fandom/executive meddling from Pierrot love of Hinata for to this day, that so-called "popularity" is just word of mouth. I still do NOT see any thing popular about her. Anime shops I went, NO merchandise of her but still see the actual main female, Sakura here and there (though maybe but I don't see the New Generation b.s. yet in America but I could be wrong). If the character was indeed popular enough to make NaruHina "acceptable" and legit, why don't I see her front and center? All these years if your character is loved and popular, why she's not there like Shikamaru and Iruka? (and I had seen their merchandise til this day).

 

Also Sasuke was basically "dominating" the storyline during Part 2. Did NOBODY ever think that if you headed to that route, Sasuke could've had a spin-off at the time, to save not only time but make the story at least balanced so Naruto has his own stuff while the stuff on Sasuke will be in another manga/novel/w.e.? That idea should've been showing $$$ on BOTH ends, even Masashi since he's motivated for money.

 

But anyways, those choices they had made was the worst decision for the franchise and now its not even worth talking about because everyone DOESN'T know what to do and Masashi gave up literally, all because of favoritism, inside and out.

 

I guess anything can be told as a story. But not everything is worth storytelling. Now, if one have read the ending and tried to connect the dots backward till the Pein's Arc again; the whole thing doesn't add up. Let's not even bother to connect the dots with Sakura's confession I guess...

 

I recall I told my colleagues in Japan during Pein's Arc period that Naruto series had its chance to win the prestigious Shogakukan Manga Award (the likes of FMA, Slam Dunk, Dr. Slump, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others have made it). It was sometimes in 2009? I can't really recall. We all know Naruto never won these award. And now looking back at the ending, I know why the panelist never considered Naruto series seriously, from story-telling perspective. Btw, if you're looking for manga worth reading, those series that managed to won Shogakukan or Kodansha Award would probably worth your time and money.

 

Although it's anecdotal, I also experienced the phenomenon where Hinata's merchandise is rare to encounter, based on my visits to Japan in the past 3 years (I went there about once a year these days). By large, it's still the same old Team 7, even in the top level of Tokyo SkyTree where they sell SkyTree merchandise and mix it with pop-culture, such as One Piece, Naruto, etc. You can directly see it in the recent sales figure of the franchise.

 

 

It's funny how, even though the war arc was written badly, we could still see very clearly how Sakura was thinking about Naruto most of the time. She was worried about him using a lot of chakra, she was healing him when talking with Minato and when went as far as to keep his heart beating, all while thinking only of him and what he aspired for.

Now that I'm a married man, I actually appreciate NS more than before, even though it may not be canon in the author's story. Why? Because in the end that type of friendship is the foundation of a long-lasting relationship.

 

I'm married for years as well, and I'm blessed with children. A great relationship starts with trust and care. These attributes are quite centric to NS. To name a few, remember the Chuunin exam, Gaara's fight, Team 7 reunion, the war arc and many others. Now look at the ending and then try to correlate with Team 7 reunion panel, where Sasuke gives no damn of shoving a chidori or poisonous knife down to Sakura.

[Bail o' Lies]

In the Boruto manga is there any nH/SS so far? No. In the anime? Yes, because they have to pander to keep the lights on.

 

From what I recall Kishimoto only got awards after the manga finished as more as a celebration/reward for the entire series instead of one year of good writing that beat all the other manga in that year. The corporations always cared more about the fact that Naruto was an international seller then anything to do about the story.

[lupina]

 

Hell, he could have ended NH right when Naruto told Hinata "You don't need me to be strong for yourself." That could have been the moment that Naruto ended NH, but again, left it ambiguous. Then you have even more NS, NH, and even SK dangling keys that sent this whole fandom a blaze only to let someone else make up kitten to drop a bomb on the fandom.

 

This is exactly what annoyed me the most.

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm married for years as well, and I'm blessed with children. A great relationship starts with trust and care. These attributes are quite centric to NS. To name a few, remember the Chuunin exam, Gaara's fight, Team 7 reunion, the war arc and many others. Now look at the ending and then try to correlate with Team 7 reunion panel, where Sasuke gives no damn of shoving a chidori or poisonous knife down to Sakura.

Quite right and pretty much on the spot. And when we see MinaKushi in action, we can see that the chemistry we talk about is there. Heck, I could also make a brief case concerning Asura/Kurenai also having t, even though they do not resemble NS as Precisely as Mina/Kushi.

But anyway, trust and care are definitely two good aspects of a good relationship; and it is what makes NS set itself apart from the other shippings. For in comparison, not even with the current content we have seen the same level of trust and care between pretty much any other couple in the Naruto or Boruto manga apart from MinaKushi (and JyraTsu if things would have worked out).

And again, it goes back to my point of saying that the Confession was partially true, for they both cared for each other, even though the timing of said confession was not the appropriate one. In fact, if everything were to be a lie, I don't think they would trust each other again. At least I would not trust someone who would blatantly lie to me. And yet you can still see their care and trust throughout the rest of the manga, even with the decline in writing quality.

So in the end, yes, this Confession may not have been the best, but a few chapters dedicated to just Naruto and Sakura clearing this situation and talking about the bench scene would have cemented NS very easily.