184 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

I think Kishi switched to NH some time after the Pain arc — probably about the same time he decided to extend the series into Boruto and the 'New Era Naruto Project.'

 

I feel like, up until the Pain arc, the series was going to end there. It was so good and cohesive. Unfortunately, I think the massive popularity made the series get extended. Kishi lost that first great editor, and the series drifted for a while. There were some good scenes, interesting story arcs, but on a whole I kept waiting for those individual plot threads to come together and make sense. It never really happened...they just then went into a war.

 

So at the time they decided to extend the series, they made the decision to launch Hinata into more of a lovey-dovey, worshipping girl to Naruto. Her character wasn't radically changed. She didn't become braver or play a more central role in the war. She didn't "shine." She just became more of a romantic lead, and a weak one at that. 

 

Kishi says he planned it all along, but that's just a lie to justify the 'bait and switch' that took place the across the war arc. Because if he admitted he'd pulled one over on his audience, no one would stick around for the next series!! But it's still a lie, whether he admits it or not. 

 

How do I know? Because it was a bombshell ending that Naruto wound up with Hinata. And it was only a bombshell because no one expected Naruto and Hinata to end up together. That relationship wasn't built up, and it wasn't supported by the character's actions or motivations. 

 

It wouldn't have been a bombshell ending if Sakura had ended up with Naruto, as was built up the whole series. That was what everyone expected, the story was built around, and the characters evolved into wanting. There would have been no big, suspenseful ending to build a new series on.

 

So when they decided to carry on with a new series about their children, the switch was made to NH. Purely to satisfy/keep/gain new fans.

 

Another point to consider, if Hinata had been unpopular, would they have still paired Naruto with her? If Hinata had been less overtly pretty, less sympathetic, had she been more like an Anko, for example, would fans still have hung around to watch what happened with their children? No. They wouldn't. 

 

If Hinata was not the sympathetic fan choice she never would have ended up with Naruto. There was no big 'planned from the beginning' sort of thing. No matter how many times they say it was there all along. Hinata was a plot device to move the story into the next gen. They determined that she was the female lead who would bring the most fans to the next series.

 

To me, the "True End" chapter is Kishimoto's true ending for the story. That's the one he planned out from the beginning stages. And that's why it's titled that way. Those are the true pairings and that's how he would have ended it. With their lives being saved by their two healer love interests, then going on to fight the ending battles and resolving the story. And there would have been no Boruto storyline.

 

But Hinata was needed for Boruto and the next gen. They needed a hook to bring fans over to the new series. And an NH ending provided just that. 

[BlackShirtGuy]

@Analyzer Yeah, well maybe your metaphors are BS.
Maybe the impression of the ending should be left to the people own judgement.
Maybe Kishi is a lyiing piece of shi t and you are just buying everything he tells you because you want to be on the "winning" side.
Maybe NH would have been ten times more believable if we at least ONCE have seen Naruto thinking about her post her "wonderful confession of love".
Maybe SS would have made more sense if Sasuke at least have showned mercy towards Sakura.
Maybe you are just here to piss people off.
Maybe you have zero sense of how storytelling should grasp.
Maybe when it comes to RELATIONSHIPS QUALITY IS NOT BETTER THAN QUANTITY.
Maybe, just maybe this was shoehorned last-minute because of a popularity contest or that Kishi gave up on Sakura and the manga.
Maybe you should leave for good, you are not gonna do anything productive here.

Over 500 posts and all tou do is whine, play the conspiracy and the stupid metaphor that doesn't make any sense, seriously just leave you are wasting everyone's time you are not gonna change anything here. You are not better than a bully that wants people to get mad at you

[Qia]

This doesn't really have much to do with the topic, but you know what's absolutely hilarious to me? Even if NH was planned from the start, nothing that Hinata did was what got Naruto to fall in love with her lmao. Like, not her confession, not the fact that she was kind to him back in part 1 and, in her own way, tried to help him when she saw that he might need it.  So basically it's either that it's just bad story telling or something inserted at the last moment in order to appease the fans and keep the series going. Either way, it's just so... 

 

But I guess if I had to choose where he made the switch, probably a bit before the Pein Arc ended and Hinata's confession. Considering we never saw much of her, it was just so random to me. She couldn't even look him in the face without fainting at the beginning of Shippuden and then BOOM BAM. 

Edited by Qia, 08 August 2017 - 02:59 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

This doesn't really have much to do with the topic, but you know what's absolutely hilarious to me? Even if NH was planned from the start, nothing that Hinata did was what got Naruto to fall in love with her lmao. Like, not her confession, not the fact that she was kind to him back in part 1 and, in her own way, tried to help him when she saw that he might need it.  So basically it's either that it's just bad story telling or something inserted at the last moment in order to appease the fans and keep the series going. Either way, it's just so... 

 

But I guess if I had to choose where he made the switch, probably a bit before the Pein Arc ended and Hinata's confession. Considering we never saw much of her, it was just so random to me. She couldn't even look him in the face without fainting at the beginning of Shippuden and then BOOM BAM. 

 

Exactly. And the "genjutsu scarf" is one of the all time LAZIEST plot devices I have ever seen. Horrendous storytelling.

[Qia]

 

This isn't true though. Though its not so much what she did, but who she was, I.E., moments like the Proud Failure are what started it. The hwole point of the Last was to show that Naruto did not understand love, nor his feelings to Hinata, in other words, he loved Hinata, but did not realize it.

 

It is a time saving device, getting something to happen within the constraints of the movie and the hand they were dealt with, notably of course, mocked, but all it does is show memories, and through it, Naruto gains understanding. The memories function as a mirror, allowing Naruto to see within himself.

 

Of course, those who do not understand that, or try to make fair understanding of it, classify it as lazy and horrendous story-telling, as to be expected.

How can he love Hinata...and not realize it...when we barely saw them together, to begin with??? I mean that whole memory with the scarf was never once hinted at before until the movie and, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't that the moment that was supposed to stand out? And how is it that Naruto doesn't understand love when the whole point of Naruto was for the character to spread love and peace in his harsh ninja world (cheesy, but obvious)? Even if you made the argument that it's romantic love, look back at the way he reacted in part 1 when Sakura came to him for help after Sasuke left. Despite feeling hurt because, of course, she doesn't know how he feels towards her, he decides to not be selfish and promises to bring him back. That was extremely mature of him, and I'm pretty sure he KNOWS how he feels/felt towards Sakura. So how can you possibly tell me he doesn't get love??? That's bs story telling 

 

Additionally, we were told from the start, and have been continuously told, that Naruto was alone as a child. No one would go near him, and all he really had was Iruka. Yet, somehow, Hinata gets pushed into this part of his story out of nowhere? And I'm supposed to just accept that easily? 

 

I don't really like the implication of your words here. So, because my opinion is different, I don't understand and I'm not being fair? As far as I'm concerned, your judgment appears to be more unfair, especially when my understanding is based off what we've been shown from part 1 of Naruto onwards: Hinata was just some girl that Naruto found weird at first but came to have some understanding of later on when he learned more about her and her family and the way it worked. After that, we really weren't shown anything more about their relationship. Yet, because I don't agree with you, I don't understand. Okay man. 

Edited by Qia, 08 August 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[sushi.]

It's in the synopsis of TL that Hinata's feelings still aren't recorpirated. Let's be real Analyzer you are empty of words and your intentions or apologies has zero weight when you continue doing what you're apologizing for.

[ThroughWithLove]

When a plot device serves no purpose beyond moving the plot along (i.e. have Naruto fall in love with Hinata), it is lazy and horrendous story-telling. The magical genjutsu scarf macguffin is just that. Why does Toneri set a genjutsu based trap? Why is the genjutsu set to trigger past memories? Why doesn't Kurama immediately dispel the genjutsu? Why limit himself to genjutsu? Why are there not more traps discreetly set around to keep the heroes at bay? Why is there only one gatekeeper? Why does Naruto just happen to see the memories needed to make him fall in love with Hinata? Nope, none of that matters. Plot device. Move along, audience and enjoy 10 minutes of pointless fan service.  It's like someone took some scenes out of multiple random fanfics and told themselves: "Hey, this would make a good movie!"

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[sushi.]

Where is this Synopsis?

You're right I shouldn't make statements without remembering the source, because I don't lol. Maybe a magazine summary idk.

 

Anyway to me Naruto is an open book, it's in his character to know himself and his desires. I want to be Hokage! I want to save Sasuke! I love Sakura! <- They were all equally consistent from beginning to end, and he rarely wavered in any of the decisions he made. Being confused about their feelings was more Sakura's thing, it was even stated in the databook and pointed out by other characters. I think Kishimoto may deem a woman's heart more complicated than a man's..

[BlackShirtGuy]

When a plot device serves no purpose beyond moving the plot along (i.e. have Naruto fall in love with Hinata), it is lazy and horrendous story-telling. The magical genjutsu scarf macguffin is just that. Why does Toneri set a genjutsu based trap? Why is the genjutsu set to trigger past memories? Why doesn't Kurama immediately dispel the genjutsu? Why are there not more traps like this set around to keep the heroes at bay? Why not use more gatekeepers? Why does Naruto just happen to see the memories needed to make him fall in love with Hinata? Nope, none of that matters. Plot device. Move along, audience and enjoy 10 minutes of pointless fan service 

 

Seriously, that scene is pretty stupid I would've preffered ten times if Naruto just sit on his bed remembering his "moments" with Hintata.
Or, you know, just talk with her, face to face, heart to heart something that Naruto was the best in.
Come on, memory genjustu, aren't genjustu's suppoused to be an illusion? Welp, I guess that explain the fake memories.
Flippin'g Naruto path of the ninja 2, a videogame who was nothing but a filler story, used this in a very clever way, and it made sense for a genjutsu to work like that.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Seriously, that scene is pretty stupid I would've preffered ten times if Naruto just sit on his bed remembering his "moments" with Hintata.
Or, you know, just talk with her, face to face, heart to heart something that Naruto was the best in.
Come on, memory genjustu, aren't genjustu's suppoused to be an illusion? Welp, I guess that explain the fake memories.
Flippin'g Naruto path of the ninja 2, a videogame who was nothing but a filler story, used this in a very clever way, and it made sense for a genjutsu to work like that.

 

 

The screenplay writers were terrified out of their minds of any notion of Hinata being perceived as a silver medal, so they came up with the most hair brained plot macguffin they could think of in order to justify the notion that Naruto didn't know what love was and that it's simply inconceivable for Naruto to not be immediately and automatically romantically interested in their precious and infallible Hinata-hime sama. Nope, the only POSSIBLE explanation for why someone couldn't be as head over heels for Hinata as them is that you simply don't know what love is. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[Derock]

I will have to say is this: why on earth that they pictured Hinata like a trophy (Silver medal? HA! MY ASS!!!) when the character is NOT even important to the storyline/franchise in the first place? First off, its definitely wrong, in misogynist levels. Women doesn't like to be or become trophies, that's a big no-no. She needed to be with the main character because the staff and the fans were all whining and crying like she was all that, when she actually wasn't. Loud and noisy, literally. This is why bias was played at hand, possibly the reason they were mad at Masashi (his own fault was that he should had pressure them even more, that's his works they're adapting but $$$ was in his eyes)  when they were working with RtN so they took the upper favor by persuaded him that "doing this route" will make tons and tons of money. Also the damn thing of watching Youtube videos from said loud "fans" was another stupid reason.

 

Result? A silly movie saying "Canon" destroying not only themes of the franchise but also the main titular character via straggling "red string of fate" (more like red string of doom) McGruffin, teaming up by retconing his developments and tossing out the main female to the side, saying it is wrong to move on from a person who don't even want her in the first place. And a spin-off that is not doing as good like the original did.

 

Possibly the staff doesn't know how love works but also doesn't understand women in general. Oh, wait, they don't, majority of them are obsessed otakus.

[Qia]

 

The last part was at @ThroughWithLove, if you read the above you could tell the latter part of my post was addressing what he was saying.

 

That said, I wrote somewhere about the development of Hinata's and Naruto's relationship, I can quote you back to it for a read. There's more to it than just part one, obviously, and further, there Relationship is different, here, in this part one arc, Hinata already acknowledges Naruto, already believing, while others are just getting there. And in the inverse, when people had thought Hinata was done, had fought as well as she could in the part one Neji fight, Naruto was still pushing her. There is this sort of mutual encouragement/saving eachother pattern that this arc establishes, that you see again in later arcs, namely the Pain and the War Arc.

 

Addressing what you are saying directly...how was Naruto hurt at Sakura's want for him to save Sasuke. Nothing showed this. As its shown later, Naruto -wants- to save Sasuke too. Naruto's attraction to Sakura was not a driving force of this, and this is clarified in the late 400s.

 

The third part is also not true, namely, because all it establishes in the Hinata angle was their first meeting, which drove an impression into Hinata. We know they met in the academy, as revealed in the Chuunin Exams, so it serves as to fill in that moment. It doesn't go against anything, and this is also false, namely, Iruka doesn't acknowledge Naruto until the end of chapter one.

 

The whole point of Naruto was gaining acknowledgement. What Naruto was spreading at the end wasn't love and peace, but unity and cooperation to achieve peace. That was Naruto's answer to Pain that he put in effect in the end, which a lot of people misunderstand and miss.

I couldn't really tell, sorry. Either way, the least you could do is explain how he misunderstood lol. Just makes you sound prejudiced otherwise. 

 

Wait...you aren't seriously trying to say that Hinata acknowledged Naruto before everyone. Surely that's not what you're saying. Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, during the chunin exams when the readers were introduced to the character of Hinata and when she actually got to have a sort of conversation with Naruto, she was worried that he would fail and offered her paper for him to cheat off of. Basically, she didn't believe he would be ok and took a huge risk in an effort to save him. However, Naruto's no coward or cheat. 

 

Sakura on the other hand? She knows Naruto, if he tries hard enough, could be Hokage and she was willing to almost forfeit the exam for him so he would still have a shot at his dream. But, just to have a little fun, let's just say this moment doesn't count and go to the third part of the exams when Naruto had to fight Kiba (intentionally ignoring the scene in the second part of the exam where she acknowledges that, unlike Sasuke, Naruto is extremely brave and doesn't give up even when facing a really tough and scary enemy). Everyone at the start of the fight when it seemed Naruto would lose, everyone but Sakura and Kakashi knew better. We even get to see her thoughts on it and then see her acknowledge and cheer him on. 

 

By the way, I'm not saying Sakura was the first to acknowledge Naruto's fortitude because she definitely wasn't. But no way were we ever shown that Hinata was either. Crushing on someone silently is not the same as acknowledging them because if she had acknowledged him she would not have doubted him not once but twice. 

 

I didn't mean he was hurt by her wanting Sasuke to be saved. He was hurt by the obvious strength of her feelings at the time. Which is why he says, with a fake smile, that she must really love him. 

 

Except...the reason why the movie scene depicting their first meeting is silly is because of the way  Hinata's introduced in the manga for me: A shy and dark weirdo that looks away when I look at her. That doesn't exactly imply, to me, that their first "meeting" was anything special. Yet the movie makes it into him protecting her from bullies. You'd think Naruto would remember at least that small detail, but it's almost like it was made up last minute IMO because its inconsistent to the way she's introduced by him. I guess you could make the argument that he simply forgot, but you'd think being the lonely kid that he was that something would have come of that much much earlier. I mean, considering he saw himself a little in her when he found out about about her clan and the relationship she has with her cousin, you would think that he would try to talk to her more or something or at least not having that much of a negative view of her. But no. 

 

So yes...it was bad story telling because it is random/inconsistent with what we knew of Naruto and Hinata at the beginning of the manga. 

 

As for the message that Naruto wished to spread, think back to way before Naruto Shippuden with the Zabuza arc. Zabuza refused to appreciate Haku, which had upset Naruto because he didn't show any appreciation for their friendship and didn't acknowledge the fact that Haku had loved him. Hear that? Naruto realized that Haku had felt that certain type of emotion towards him and from then on vowed to change the ninja system into one where ninjas weren't just emotional tools by first trying to be his own kind of ninja. 

 

So yes...it wasn't just about unity and peace, but also about love. Because Naruto, being the kid that rarely ever received that kind of appreciation from anyone, should be able to recognize such a new and strong emotion. 

Edited by Qia, 08 August 2017 - 08:47 PM.

[sushi.]

I couldn't really tell, sorry. Either way, the least you could do is explain how he misunderstood lol. Just makes you sound prejudiced otherwise. 

 

Wait...you aren't seriously trying to say that Hinata acknowledged Naruto before everyone. Surely that's not what you're saying. Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, during the chunin exams when the readers were introduced to the character of Hinata and when she actually got to have a sort of conversation with Naruto, she was worried that he would fail and offered her paper for him to cheat off of. Basically, she didn't believe he would be ok and took a huge risk in an effort to save him. However, Naruto's no coward or cheat. 

 

Sakura on the other hand? She knows Naruto, if he tries hard enough, could be Hokage and she was willing to almost forfeit the exam for him so he would still have a shot at his dream. But, just to have a little fun, let's just say this moment doesn't count and go to the third part of the exams when Naruto had to fight Kiba (intentionally ignoring the scene in the second part of the exam where she acknowledges that, unlike Sasuke, Naruto is extremely brave and doesn't give up even when facing a really tough and scary enemy). Everyone at the start of the fight when it seemed Naruto would lose, everyone but Sakura and Kakashi knew better. We even get to see her thoughts on it and then see her acknowledge and cheer him on. 

 

By the way, I'm not saying Sakura was the first to acknowledge Naruto's fortitude because she definitely wasn't. But no way were we ever shown that Hinata was either. Crushing on someone silently is not the same as acknowledging them because if she had acknowledged him she would not have doubted him not once but twice. 

 

I didn't mean he was hurt by her wanting Sasuke to be saved. He was hurt by the obvious strength of her feelings at the time. Which is why he says, with a fake smile, that she must really love him. 

 

Except...the reason why the movie scene depicting their first meeting is silly is because of the way  Hinata's introduced in the manga for me: A shy and dark weirdo that looks away when I look at her. That doesn't exactly imply, to me, that their first "meeting" was anything special. Yet the movie makes it into him protecting her from bullies. You'd think Naruto would remember at least that small detail, but it's almost like it was made up last minute IMO because its inconsistent to the way she's introduced by him. I guess you could make the argument that he simply forgot, but you'd think being the lonely kid that he was that something would have come of that much much earlier. I mean, considering he saw himself a little in her when he found out about about her clan and the relationship she has with her cousin, you would think that he would try to talk to her more or something or at least not having that much of a negative view of her. But no. 

 

So yes...it was bad story telling because it is random/inconsistent with what we knew of Naruto and Hinata at the beginning of the manga. 

 

As for the message that Naruto wished to spread, think back to way before Naruto Shippuden with the Zabuza arc. Zabuza refused to appreciate Haku, which had upset Naruto because he didn't show any appreciation for their friendship and didn't acknowledge the fact that Haku had loved him. Hear that? Naruto realized that Haku had felt that certain type of emotion towards him and from then on vowed to change the ninja system into one where ninjas weren't just emotional tools by first trying to be his own kind of ninja. 

 

So yes...it wasn't just about unity and peace, but also about love. Because Naruto, being the kid that rarely ever received that kind of appreciation from anyone, should be able to recognize such a new and strong emotion. 

I agree. During the chuunin exam Sakura was loudly cheering Naruto on while Hinata was secretly whimpering thinking he'd lose. She always worried for him but that is not equal to encouragement or acknowledgement. Sakura was always one of Naruto's loudest supporters, especially when it came to his Hokage dream. Many NH fans deny that but still ship them as friends. Offt;In the chuunin exam Hinata also gave ointment to Naruto who had a scratch, instead of to Kiba who had to be carried away. <- Always irritated me when she couldn't focus on anyone but him.

 

NS fans don't claim Sakura was the first to acknowledge him. We all know it was Iruka, Then Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi etc.. NH fans try to disrupt the order so Hinata is first of everything.

 

TL movie retconned NH's first meeting and also the moment Naruto unlocks his clone abilities, which was the first significant scene in the manga.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

What is a good plot device? Because a lot of your questions could be asked with any moment in any story, and are blatant over-thinking. Why aren't there not more traps discreetly set around to keep the heroes at bay? So what should a plot device actually do?

 

Also, again, restating, the memories do not make him fall in love with Hinata. The memories turn a mirror onto Naruto, so he can understand the context, and thus his own feelings.

 

A good plot device is one that does not scream plot device when you see it. For example, if the heroes have no means of getting to the bad guy's castle and this never before seen magic talking octopus pops out of nowhere, gives the heroes a ride and is then never seen again, that is a lousy plot device. Here, we something similar. 

 

I don't know what movie you watched, but the movie I watched had Naruto falling head over heels for Hinata after seeing the memories.

 

 

Right, as long as you understand that this is complete speculation

 

I think you meant to quote your talk of Naruto being unable to grasp his own emotions. If so, I'd agree. And I would add that it's contradicted repeatedly by the manga.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 09:35 PM.

[Qia]

In their first meeting, Naruto used the Kage Bunshin Technique to try and save Hinata 

In the first chapter of the manga, Naruto taught himself the Kage bunshin Technique and therefore could not have known it before 

Therefore the details of their meeting are a retcon and inconsistent with what we know from the manga. 

 

Valid enough for you? Haha I'm joking of course. But how about this instead: 

 

Hinata acknowledges Naruto and understands him (true, according to you)

Naruto, even after meeting Hinata, is socially isolated by his peers and begins to pull pranks to try and receive acknowledgment (true based on the manga) 

So, it follows from this that despite apparently understanding Naruto before her peers, she did nothing for him in his time of obvious need. 

 

Sad conclusion, right? Which is why I find it hard to look at it that way and it's better, for the sake of Hinata, to see it as the reason why she begun to have feelings for him rather than understand/acknowledge him. Also, it's more like that scene of her being bullied is mainly to be taken from her POV, as Naruto clearly didn't find it significant enough to remember her other than being "the weird dark girl" once she's seen again in the chuunin exams. I should also add that the chuunin exams, if the movie is to be taken as canon despite my first valid argument, was the second time we see her character. So, going by this, there was no evidence to suggest that at that point Hinata understood and acknowledged Naruto. Liked him? Obviously. But she definitely didn't understand him and, therefore, did not acknowledge all of his strengths before the rest of her peers. She couldn't have completely understood/acknowledged him when she had her doubts about his strength and determination against when facing Kiba especially. 

 

As for not being able to recognize love in himself, let's just assume I agree with this. When did Naruto start to feel that way for Hinata, in that case? Because you can go over all of their scenes up to that point and read it as him not liking to see people put down others they see as below them. Her being bullied by her cousin could have also reminded him of himself and the way he was treated as well. So...what then? Was it her confession? What about her confession would get him to fall in love with her? And why was it never once hinted that he felt that way towards her, even if he didn't recognize it as such? Because if Naruto can't recognize that kind of love himself, how could he have had it to begin with? It's not like romantic love is this invisible thing that gets inserted into people. It's an emotion that you can probably recognize based on someone's words or action. But at no point in the manga does Naruto act or say anything to suggest he views Hinata as more than a friend. 

 

And actually...she does believe. She calls it an impossible dream not because she doesn't believe he can do it, but because it would be extremely difficult for him to accomplish it. She doesn't want to see his chances completely taken away. She could have easily decided to not raise her hand and it would only be Naruto at risk of not being able to accomplish his one and only dream. However, she's willing to do over the exam again for his sake so that he actually has a chance. So how can you possibly say that she does not believe when she takes on a decision that would not have affected her to begin with but only Naruto. That...does not make any sense to me.  

 

Sure, let's say that she wanted to help him. If Hinata really understands Naruto however, she would have known already that he could never do that. Cheat his way into being Hokage just because things are tough. He never gives up, and by cheating in a way he would be. I get that she was trying to help though. 

Edited by Qia, 08 August 2017 - 10:02 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: How does this relate to the Last, because the plot device functions as a trap to ensnare them into memories, to stop their journey. It moves the chronic tension, but -not- the plot along. It actually stops the plot, which is to save Hanabi/stop the world from blowing up. It also function as a sort of shift in Naruto's actions, because he had that mirror look inside, he understood, and acted as what you saw!  Now I hope you understand.

 

2: No, I don't meant to do that, that was in response to your speculation. As long as you understand its just speculation.

 

1. Magic talking octopus = Magic Memory Inducing Dream Land. Both exist for one purpose and are discarded once they've accomplished said purpose. Get the heroes to the bad guy's castle. Make Naruto fall in love with Hinata. Lazy lazy lazy. Here, once that's done, the heroes commence with pursuing Toneri.

 

As to this self-mirror talk, that sounds like a lot of head canon to me.  Feel free to post what part of the movie you're talking about, but I watched the movie and Naruto falls in love after watching these memories. I made sure to rewatch the relevant scenes multiple times, but I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you mean to refer me to a fanfiction, tumblr post or something.

 

2. Oh so you do agree that other stuff speculation? Excellent. As long as we understand that, we're good.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[sushi.]

So Hinata did give kiba ointment? I only read on tumblr SNS army that she didnt but according to wiki she did so I might be wrong ;p

Good luck with analyzer guys im going to bed

[ThroughWithLove]

 

2: Not sure what you are talking about anymore, okay.

 

1: No, Magic Memory Inducing Dream Land, a.k.a, Genjutsu, is no octupus. It's a trap, so of course its not used again. No, it doesn't get the heroes to the bad guy's castle, it delays it. No, it doesn't make Naruto fal in love with Hinata, it helps him realize he already was. The mirror part is a metaphor, which you are taking literally, I guess? So you're not understanding Naruto's social paraih issues.

 

1. A curiously placed genjutsu trap that exist nowhere else, is guarded by a single minion that exist no place else,  that is not supported by any additional traps, happens to function in a way that can make Naruto fall in love with Hinata, that the genjutsu just happens to allow Hinata's scarf to somehow wrap around Naruto, that it happens to last long enough for Naruto to see the memories needed to have him fall in love and is never seen or used again at any point in movie is no better than the octopus. Hell, it's worse since the octopus can at least be amusing.

 

As to the mirror part, I'll ask again: Is this stated in the film? Metaphor or not, where is what you're saying explained to us in the movie or anywhere for that matter? I'm not seeing it nor am I seeing that Naruto has always romantically loved the Hinata according to the movie. I keep watching the relevant scenes and have posted the movie in its entirety, so kindly show me what I'm missing and I'll gladly take it into consideration. And if the best you can do is say "So you're not understanding Naruto's social paraih issues", then I think you've proven my point here and are in fact attempting to substitute your headcanon for what is actually shown and explained to us in the movie (badly written as it is). 

 

2. I hear yah loud and clear. *wink wink nudge nudge*

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: A curiously placed genjutsu trap that exists nowhere else...

 

Why the requirement of it existing someplace else? 

 

So that I don't get the feeling the writers are concocting a contrived means of furthering the plot. When I'm watching or reading a story, words like plot device, plot holes, retcons, padding, fan service and deus ex machinana should never enter my mind. I should be able to sit down and enjoy the story for what it is. But when you've got blatant plot devices like the genjutsu scarf, it's pretty hard to do that.

 

 

2: The Gatekeeper -is- an additional trap.

 

I've rewatched the scene and would invite you to do the same. It's all the same trap. The gatekeeper is producing the magical genjutsu bubbles or whatever the heck it is. Shikamarua cautions the team to avoid it so that they won't get trapped in the genjutsu again. 

 

 

3: There are other guards watching, which the party notes, but Toneri has commanded them to wait.

 

Then why even spring the trap in the first place? Especially if Toneri wants Hinata and feasibly has a means of getting what he wants and eliminating the opposition in one fell swoop. Maybe get some more crab dudes to lay down the genjutsu smackdown. C'mon. That's weak.

 

 

 

Even if Naruto was shown the memories a million times, -feelings- would have to exist for him to eliecit the next reaction. This isn't about it being stated, it is shown to you. Naruto is literally viewing his own memories, the metaphorical mirror upon himself is the Genjutsu. What, do you need Tell over Showing?

 

Okay, so you've just told me that your explanation isn't actually included in the movie, but is just an explanation. That's it's your own personal head canon to be precise. Speculation to be even more precise. Feelings would have to exist for him to elicit a reaction? Says who? The way I (and a heck of a lot of people) saw it, Naruto was touched by Hinata's feelings for him over the course of many years and fell in love. As Kishi describes it, she's always acknowledged him. Naruto notices it. Bada bing, bada boom, he's in love.

 

I don't need "tell over showing." I need scenes that actually support what you're saying. Like instead of the genjutsu scarf macguffin, maybe something happens to Hinata and Naruto becomes uncharacteristically worried. At that point, he has the lightbulb "OMG, I've been in love with her all along" moment. Something like that would be BS and cliche as hell, but it would at least support your explanation (which this movie doesn't do). 

 

 

4: Also again, doesn't make love happen. And this is why you state your next thing, because you don't understand 4:

 

Based on what you've told us, I don't understand your head canon. You're right. I do not. Though not for the reasons you think.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 08 August 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Head canon is a mistake. It made Naruto all too "forgiving."