286 replies to this topic

[T XD]

I liked the talk between Obito and Kakashi. A cooperation between Naruto and Hashirama is interesting to see.

 

By the way, what's the number of this chapter in this current volume ?

[Nate River]

I gotta agree with you here. While the story is still overall a wreck for me right now, the one thing I held onto this whole arc was Kakashi's character. I really have to admit, Kakashi is by far the most human character in this story. Even far more than Sakura and her issues. This chapter simply proves it and why Kakashi is now my No.2 character in Naruto. The fact that he openly admitted to Obito that even he considered taking Obito's path at one point is the thing that really stood out to me. 
 
Here was a man considered to be great by the many, and yet he had once considered erasing all existence to escape his tortured existence.

I admit I used to hate Kakashi, but now he is one of my favorite and it is because of things like this. He has had every excuse to be Sasuke or Obito or Madara and he choses not to. I'd hate Obito regardless, but when I look at what he has done and been through, it makes Obito and Sasuke seem small and petty.

It feels like he choses to be the adult even when doing so is very hard and even when those around him don't. I liked that he has been ready to kill Obito despite his own misgivings about it because he felt it necessary to protect everyone else.

So, I'm where you are. I really hate some of the things being done right now, but I really like how Kakashi has been used.
 

ve pretty much given up on there being commiserate consequences to the actions of the villains here. But I am glad they showed the populus clamoring for blood/retribution. I think that's an expected response to situation. The fighters are looking for a payoff after their long battle. It was unfortunate that they were hand-waved away with Minato's quick explanation, and then we see them no more, but I get that it can't work in a manga. However, passionate, aggressive crowds are a dangerous thing. Explosive and uncontrollable. So it's perfectly reasonable to think that these soldiers and ninjas would want to see him finished off. But its ooc to think they'd be subdued so quickly.

Wish they'd hold Obito more accountable for his deeds. Not just talk about what's in his heart. I suppose it's a given at this point, still it's just hard to read Minato waxing even the tinest bit nostalgic about his old student without going "Dude! He killed you!"

I thought the same thing. But we know he'll die so nobody is forced to worry about or deal with that.

Con...se...quences...what are those? After reading Naruto, I am unfamiliar with this concept.

I agree that I was happy to see Sasuke and Kakashi move in for the kill with the everything cheering him on. An entirely normal and expected reaction. I was dismayed when TnJ started and they suddenly vanished. No protests. I don't recall seem them again. Of course, it's easy to do when all the war amounted was "Neji and the Great Mook Massacre. (it's not as catchy as Team Not Seven but I'm trying)" Victims with no names. Victims with barely any faces. It's wonderful because we the audience don't have to give a crap while we weep for poor Obito. We don't have wonder about uncomfortable questions surrounding or their sudden disinterest in their deceased comrades while people cry over Obito. This is why it just kills me to see the fandom group hug Obito gets. It's all about him, not his victims.

I see you point about about not working in a manga...but I can't just pretend that he didn't kill everyone.

I genuinely feel for poor Kakashi and he's is why I ultimately like this chapter.
 

A pay-off? You mean a body? The pay-off was that they won the war and stopped judgement day more or less. Just because they don't kill him does not mean they won't hold him accountable for his actions. There are other ways of punishment besides just the death penalty, but again, isn't this the point of Naruto? If you kill just because you are angry and feel you deserve retribution...then you are no better than them.

1. Such as..? What are your proposed alternative. I'm not sure rotting in solitary confinement for life really holds true to Naruto ideals. So, what are you suggestions?

2. But we would be. In executing Obito we would be eliminating the offender and only the offender. That is not what Obito has done.
 

Justice and vengeance are two different things. Revenge is not a valid motive; it's an emotional response and I think this is a problem many have comprehending. The way you are describing it sounds like you are saying the soldiers deserve to string him up because of the all pain he caused them and all the lives he took away from them, but that's really revenge and just calling it "punishment."

So what would justice be? I think executing a mass murderer is just. He took the lives of countless others in pursuit of enslaving the rest. He was ready to take everyone, and I do mean everyone, else's life from them one way or another. I think it is entirely just that he should pay for that sin with his own life and not under his terms.

You misunderstand the point on the soldiers as well. The point speaks to believability. Under almost any other circumstance you would expect that as the result regardless of what concept it is in rooted in. It shown, so at least Kishi sees it. But the idea that they would suddenly as a whole be satiated with what we just saw..? I find it more than a little fanciful.
 

If you think Obito deserves nothing, but death, then what does Sasuke deserve for his crimes? Banishment? Little leniant to just let Sasuke go to become a wandering samurai or something. As well, we have yet to see if Sasuke continues to do evil or not.

Obito does deserve nothing, but death. Anything else he gets is a unworthy gift. Please tell me what Obito has done that gives him the right to ask for anything. I really think the only place for legitimate argument is as to why those dispensing punishment should offer it to him. Talking about what he deserves at this point kinda makes we want to vomit a little because I just can't buy into the mentality that would ever allow me to ask what Obito deserves. Even if I cared about understanding him at this point, the answer to what he deserves would still be self-evident to me: Nothing.

Obito is not some run of the mill crook and I refuse to treat him like one.
 

That proves it. They don't want to kill Obito outright because they know it isn't right. Death brings nothing, but more death. It is life that needs to be preserved. Interesting how so many are willing to take the blame for Obito's actions and saying that if Obito truly trusted his friends more, he could be the different man he is today. So like I said, manipulated by Madara into doing evil.

This proves what?

Manipulated into doing evil? And what point do we become big boys and girls responsible for our own actions? For Obito, it seems the answer is never. Madara had been dead for what..at least a decade? This is why it would be a travesty if Madara were behind what Mist did. A cheap culpability saving excuse. And it sounds like from Obito's own words he saw the world and ultimately accepted Madara's ideal. So at some point he has to make a conscious choice to go forward and on the methods chose in furtherance of it.

Death begets more death? Who is going to seek revenge on behalf of Obito at this point? It'll be easier to find Waldo where everyone on the page is where the same striped hat, shirt, and glasses. I suppose Kishimoto can invent a new character if he needs to. Obito's long lost something or other... If they are that bent out of shape, I'm sure they'll just be a-okay with rotting in prison until he assumes room temperature.

I think you conflate with what people say they expect to happen with what you think they want to happen.

TRICKSIE: Abount Minato, an entirely Minato reaction, but yeah, it kinda hurt watching him apologizes to Obito when Obito behaves as if Obito's love life was his only obligation as a Hokage.

It Minato wants to do that on him...but it's why I always call Obito petty

[tricksie]

@Branden - yeah, I don't know that it will happen. Lots of things I think Kishimoto will do, he hasn't done.

 

It just depends on whether Kishimoto is going to throw Naruto a curve ball and really test him before it's all over, or if he's going to let him succeed with more easily surmountable hurdles. 

 

@James - a pay-off, a body, blood. Yes, that's what I meant. As I said, I think it's a normal reaction in a crowd mentality. Out-of-control crowds are dangerous and explosive. And these are soldiers who have been fighting. Very much like police officers or fighters who go too far, it is hard to turn off that adrenaline-fueled rage. So I'm glad that the crowd reaction was shown, and was shown to be different. Naruto not only has to convince Obito to give up, but he has to back off the crowd who wants to see someone pay. This was all swept under the rug in the Pain arc. Naruto never had to explain his choices to anyone. So it was good to see the crowd reaction here, even though Minato quickly hand-waved it away in the next panels. 

 

@Dark - I like your thoughts on NS. And yes, Obito and Naruto are stated to not be equal. I was pleased to see that Kishimoto broke his parallel there. And really, if Sakura was killed, I don't see Naruto taking Obito's path of killing everyone. He would move on, a shadow of what he once was, but he wouldn't take it out on the entire shinobi world like Obito did. (Interesting thoughts about Sakura, too. True, Naruto was her only light.)

 

On that note, Obito in this chapter is shown to be a character of extremes, someone who sees things only in black-and-white. He's pretty rigid and inflexible. Rin died, therefore he must exact his revenge on the whole world and all its future generations. Asking about Naruto and how Kakashi can be sure Naruto won't fail. He can't put his faith in one person because they might let him down. Again. He put his faith in one person, she died, and now his world has gone dark. His ray of light was snuffed out. Obito is thinking in black-and-white.

 

If anything, this is the way Naruto might have turned out, if he was so rigidly fixed in his goals that his passion ended up destroying him. I can't see Obito making the same decision Naruto did when he accepted Sakura's love for Sasuke and promised to go after him for her. (Obito's selfless act was made when he thought he was dying. But having to live with the consequences of your selflessness is an entirely different thing.)

 

edit:

 

@Nate - sorry, I didn't see your post when I was writing earlier. Absolutely agree on Obito. All points. It is almost hard for me to continue reading when these characters that I like (Minato) have to subvert their own history/feelings/relationships for Obito's one childhood love. And yeah, the fandom grouphug makes me want to gag.

 

In retribution for Rin, his only ray of light, Obito snuffed out countless other rays of light for other people. This includes Kushina, Minato and, lest we forget, that cold-blooded attempt to dash Naruto's newborn head against the floor. So yeah, it really bothers me to read about Minato, Obito's victim, talking about what's in Obito's heart. (You know what's there? Missed opportunities. Now it's time to pay the piper.) I don't mind when Naruto blathers on about this stuff - it's his role in the manga. But I would prefer others to stand firm about Obito. He may have had a change of heart, but he still has be accountable. 

 

I've always liked Kakashi, but I especially like him here. He does not back-pedal his way out of these situations. He will take the blood on his hands so others won't have to. In that way, he's surpassed the Third. 

[Shadow1275]

Though I've been disappointed by the recent chapters, this one was ok. The biggest plus was that Kakashi is back. Though I would've preferred that they finished off Obito, one of the best parts about Kakashi is he fluctuates between both paths of hero and anti-hero. For example, in the beginning of the story, he had no qualms about killing Zabuza seeing him as a cold murderer. However, mid-way through the war he grew to respect Zabuza. This is the only reason why I accepted Kakashi not killing Obito in this chapter. It's also why I feel that he resembles Naruto a lot more then Sasuke. In this chapter, he went through the exact same feelings as Obito but refused to give up hope and avoided becoming like him.

 

Unfortunately though, Kakashi was the saving grace because the rest of the chapter was a bit of a letdown. Especially since we won't get another chapter for several weeks.

Edited by Shadow1275, 13 November 2013 - 08:12 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

there's no naruto next week. It will return, via web, on 11/27.

Ok, thank you. What a Thanksgiving that's going to be.

 

I liked the talk between Obito and Kakashi. A cooperation between Naruto and Hashirama is interesting to see.

 

By the way, what's the number of this chapter in this current volume ?

8th chapter. So this begs the question: quick win over Madara or leading to new volume with Madara?

[sushi.]

Who's footprints are in the end?

 

btw, do you think Naruto really needs his own "Rin"? Obito had one light in his life. While that is somewhat understandable because he had no family, it is portrayed as something negative in this chapter. Kakashi marked the difference between Obito and Naruto this way. Naruto is possesses light/strength on his own, without seeking an outside source. I don't think we need to add more stuff to the conclusion now, Naruto doesn't need to be "tested" anymore. It's over. I don't think Sakura will be Naruto's Rin by getting her killed of/wounded.

It's Madara time.

Edited by sushi., 13 November 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[tricksie]

Though I've been disappointed by the recent chapters, this one was ok. The biggest plus was that Kakashi is back. Though I would've preferred that they finished off Obito, one of the best parts about Kakashi is he fluctuates between both paths of hero and anti-hero. For example, in the beginning of the story, he had no qualms about killing Zabuza seeing him as a cold murderer. However, mid-way through the war he grew to respect Zabuza. This is the only reason why I accepted Kakashi not killing Obito in this chapter. It's also why I feel that he resembles Naruto a lot more then Sasuke. In this chapter, he went through the exact same feelings as Obito but refused to give up hope and avoided becoming like him.

 

Unfortuantely though, Kakashi was the saving grace because the rest of the chapter was a bit of a letdown. Especially since we won't get another chapter for several weeks.

Yes, in the beginning I used to see him as much more like Sasuke. And even in his own team when he was a kid, Kakashi was the Sasuke figure. But he has transformed from the beginning of the manga and through the flashbacks of his team to be more like Naruto.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

@Branden - yeah, I don't know that it will happen. Lots of things I think Kishimoto will do, he hasn't done.

 

It just depends on whether Kishimoto is going to throw Naruto a curve ball and really test him before it's all over, or if he's going to let him succeed with more easily surmountable hurdles. 

 

@James - a pay-off, a body, blood. Yes, that's what I meant. As I said, I think it's a normal reaction in a crowd mentality. Out-of-control crowds are dangerous and explosive. And these are soldiers who have been fighting. Very much like police officers or fighters who go too far, it is hard to turn off that adrenaline-fueled rage. So I'm glad that the crowd reaction was shown, and was shown to be different. Naruto not only has to convince Obito to give up, but he has to back off the crowd who wants to see someone pay. This was all swept under the rug in the Pain arc. Naruto never had to explain his choices to anyone. So it was good to see the crowd reaction here, even though Minato quickly hand-waved it away in the next panels. 

 

@Dark - I like your thoughts on NS. And yes, Obito and Naruto are stated to not be equal. I was pleased to see that Kishimoto broke his parallel there. And really, if Sakura was killed, I don't see Naruto taking Obito's path of killing everyone. He would move on, a shadow of what he once was, but he wouldn't take it out on the entire shinobi world like Obito did. (Interesting thoughts about Sakura, too. True, Naruto was her only light.)

 

On that note, Obito in this chapter is shown to be a character of extremes, someone who sees things only in black-and-white. He's pretty rigid and inflexible. Rin died, therefore he must exact his revenge on the whole world and all its future generations. Asking about Naruto and how Kakashi can be sure Naruto won't fail. He can't put his faith in one person because they might let him down. Again. He put his faith in one person, she died, and now his world has gone dark. His ray of light was snuffed out. Obito is thinking in black-and-white.

 

If anything, this is the way Naruto might have turned out, if he was so rigidly fixed in his goals that his passion ended up destroying him. I can't see Obito making the same decision Naruto did when he accepted Sakura's love for Sasuke and promised to go after him for her. (Obito's selfless act was made when he thought he was dying. But having to live with the consequences of your selflessness is an entirely different thing.)

I can say that i like Obito, but being honest he's kind of injusticed some times, the manga obviously showed that he was capable of going far for Rin, he sacrificed his own life to save, Kakashi pointed out that too and even give his sharingan to Kakashi, he died without even declaring his love for her to not make things harder and entrusted Rin to Kakashi.

 

I only dislike the fact that he turned the whole war on a personal matter, he involved the whole world on a dispute between him and Naruto trying to prove that he's right and Naruto will fail.

He should have been talking about peace instead of saying Naruto will fail or that he will be alone.
The only downside on Obito was the fact that he had any other person other than Rin, and it's understandable how he lost his faith on the world.

Kakashi broke his promise, his teacher never protected them, and Rin died.
It's like Zabuza arc when Sasuke almost died fighting Haku.

 

"Previous Post"

About Minato, it's kinda obvious that Kakashi got the "i wont let my students die" from the fact Minato could not protect them.
Minato it's like the "The one who protects everything, protects nothing", Minato was much like Naruto during the war, he was trying to handle everything by himself and fighting on every single battlefields on which he could.

 

And because of that he failed on protecting his students, his own family and was going to fail on protecting his village too, until he decided to sacrifice himself to save the village.

 

 

Who's footprints are in the end?

 

btw, do you think Naruto really needs his own "Rin"? Obito had one light in his life. While that is somewhat understandable because he had no family, it is portrayed as something negative in this chapter. Kakashi marked the difference between Obito and Naruto this way. Naruto is possesses light/strength on his own, without seeking an outside source. I don't think we need to add more stuff to the conclusion now, Naruto doesn't need to be "tested" anymore. It's over. I don't think Sakura will be Naruto's Rin by getting her killed of/wounded.

It's Madara time.

 

It's already stated that Naruto doesnt have a Rin, Sakura is his love interest aswell but it's not his only source of strenght or the only light on his path, she may be a important one obviously but wont make him give up because there would still be people on his side.

It applies to other characters too, Sakura at some point on part 1, when on her confession she said that her life would be meaningless without Sasuke, but she could replace it with Naruto which became her new light.

Hinata is struck with Naruto and it prevents her from progressing.

Ino thought that her love for Sasuke was literally everything, and then she learned that her friends are more important than this.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 13 November 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I don't have much to say about this chapter, it's pretty much what I expected, but less than I would have hoped for. My thoughts are pretty much with Tricksie's on the handling of Obito and everything, I find it all hard to swallow that his wrongdoing is just brushed under the rug, trying to force the audience to feel sympathy.  It just doesn't cut it for me.

 

If nothing else, I'm glad that this arc is slowly but surely reaching it's conclusion.

 

Who's footprints are in the end?

 

btw, do you think Naruto really needs his own "Rin"? Obito had one light in his life. While that is somewhat understandable because he had no family, it is portrayed as something negative in this chapter. Kakashi marked the difference between Obito and Naruto this way. Naruto is possesses light/strength on his own, without seeking an outside source. I don't think we need to add more stuff to the conclusion now, Naruto doesn't need to be "tested" anymore. It's over. I don't think Sakura will be Naruto's Rin by getting her killed of/wounded.

It's Madara time.

 

Yeah, I pretty much agree. I don't think Sakura is going to play the role of Naruto 'Rin', in fact, I think that Kishi seems to be very consciously staying away from doing any such thing.

[LuckyChi7]

Ok, thank you. What a Thanksgiving that's going to be.
 
8th chapter. So this begs the question: quick win over Madara or leading to new volume with Madara?

I'm kinda leaning more towards next volume because there is still Madara's trump card which we still haven't seen yet. So maybe that's where the focus could be going.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm kinda leaning more towards next volume because there is still Madara's trump card which we still haven't seen yet. So maybe that's where the focus could be going.

Possible. I would say that if Madara still has his normal face, then something is up. If he admits that Naruto ruined everything, then well, time to end it.

[MangaReader]

I don't know about this one... I mean I guess it's cool to maintain this whole "every life is worth keeping, even those of scumbags", but I just don't know. Ah well, this half is over and done with, now onto Madara and then hopefully Sasuke. 

 

Decent chapter, but sucks that this one is the one before the break... (What issue are we on, because the translation says it'll return in issue #1)

[Codus N]

I admit I used to hate Kakashi, but now he is one of my favorite and it is because of things like this. He has had every excuse to be Sasuke or Obito or Madara and he choses not to. I'd hate Obito regardless, but when I look at what he has done and been through, it makes Obito and Sasuke seem small and petty.

It feels like he choses to be the adult even when doing so is very hard and even when those around him don't. I liked that he has been ready to kill Obito despite his own misgivings about it because he felt it necessary to protect everyone else.

So, I'm where you are. I really hate some of the things being done right now, but I really like how Kakashi has been used.

 

This. So much. The only redeeming point for me with this arc is Kakashi. That's it. I don't read the manga much anymore, aside from the occasional glances. But even then, the reason I do that is because I've been hoping a lot for Kakashi and really, that's the only thing that's kept me even mildly interested in the manga. And now that Kakashi's story is over, I can finally put down this manga for good, knowing at ease with Kakashi's resolution.

 

Time for me to switch my 100% allegiance to FT. toodles!

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, it's a good thing for a break, more or less. Next gen consoles are around corner. I'll return with a topic in mind but for now, rest easy.

[Lid]

I agree with what Nate and Tricksie were saying in regards to Obito.

 

This was the problem I had when i first found out that Obito was under the mask, because I knew that there would be a session including tnj and an attempt to get sympathy for his character.

 

Obito has destroyed so many lives, including Minato and Kushina's, and it was all because of the death of Rin, and now we are suppose to feel sorry for him?

 

Plus, forgive me if I'm wrong, but did he ever try to investigate why Kakashi would kill Rin at all?

 

 

He has had every excuse to be Sasuke or Obito or Madara and he choses not to. I'd hate Obito regardless, but when I look at what he has done and been through, it makes Obito and Sasuke seem small and petty.

 

I think you really hit the nail on the head here Nate. That was one of the positives of the chapter, and this arc, is seeing more of Kakashi's background, and seeing that he took the high road too.

 

 

I'm also hoping that the battle with Madara doesn't go too long, I'm getting a little burned out from this war.

[Codus N]

He did. And he still went ahead with the plan.

[Hanabi]

random 655 edit from mf

I thought this is pretty funny.

[Shadow1275]

Yes, in the beginning I used to see him as much more like Sasuke. And even in his own team when he was a kid, Kakashi was the Sasuke figure. But he has transformed from the beginning of the manga and through the flashbacks of his team to be more like Naruto.

It's one of the reasons why he's my favorite character. Well that and lightning blade. But if you want to analyze it a little further. In Kakashi Gaiden, after Rin confesses her feelings to Kakashi, He has this line where he says, "I don't deserve you I'm scum."

 

It reminds of Naruto and Sai's conversation where he says that he doesn't deserve Sakura bc he couldn't fulfill his promise to her. That's why I don't really see Kakashi as an effective parallel of Sasuke bc if you really dig deeper you see they don't have that much in common.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

It's one of the reasons why he's my favorite character. Well that and lightning blade. But if you want to analyze it a little further. In Kakashi Gaiden, after Rin confesses her feelings to Kakashi, He has this line where he says, "I don't deserve you I'm scum."

 

It reminds of Naruto and Sai's conversation where he says that he doesn't deserve Sakura bc he couldn't fulfill his promise to her. That's why I don't really see Kakashi as an effective parallel of Sasuke bc if you really dig deeper you see they don't have that much in common.

he didnt said "i dont deserve you", what he did was a wake up call he said

 

kakashi : "obito loved you"

Rin : But Kakashi my feelings...

Kakashi : "i was going to abandon you."

 

He simply rejected Rin not the other way around, he didnt felt that he deserved her but more likely the fact that how could he return her feelings when he was going to abandon her.

All the flashbacks of Rin/kakashi were of her admiring him because she thinks he's a greath shinobi and a great guy he did a wake up call on her by telling her that he's not a great shinobi and the great guy she thought he was.

 

Kakashi didnt loved Rin it was kind obvious when he was going to abandon her without hesitation, just like when Sasuke tried to kill Sakura without hesitation.

Dont even try to compare Kakashi abandoning Rin with Naruto's POAL, they give different resolutions.

 

What Kakashi did is comparable to Sasuke and the love-ninja.

kakashi at the same time told Rin that Obito loved her and he wasnt a great guy, the very same thing Sakura got over the summit + 540 combined.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 13 November 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[Nate River]

I've always liked Kakashi, but I especially like him here. He does not back-pedal his way out of these situations. He will take the blood on his hands so others won't have to. In that way, he's surpassed the Third.

I hated him originally because he fit a particular character type that I am not a huge fan of, but Kishimoto's development of him has been very good. My opinion of him really shot up during the one on one fight in the Kamui dimension when he decided that Obito needed to die. Kakashi had tried to dissuade him and failed, so now it was time to do the hard work, no matter how unpleasant it may be.

Speaking of the Third...that is what I want to happen to Naruto. I agree with you that Kakashi surpassed him in that he was ready (and already tried once) to do what the third would not. Unlike Naruto though, the Third paid dearly for this failure. He and many of those he was responsible for protecting died because he could not follow through.

This is part of what I mean when I say mercy is not risk free. What would Naruto say if Nagato did this or Obito killed Kakashi as they sat there and spoke? Death he could have prevented had he killed them when he had the chance. It's as if Naruto gets all of the benefits of doing that without suffering the costs. It's easier to stand behind a philsosphy that keeps working out for you.