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#81 Atheck

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

I kind off edited my post some time ago...


That doesn't concern me. Your main argument was that Gamakichi and/or Gamabunta alone would be capable of defeating 100% Katsuyu. I was addressing that with my post.

How much difference would 50% of Kurama's chakra make? Naturally the Jubi would have to apply more effort in his feat of easily overpowering both of the bijuu but the end result is all the same. And I don't recall the Jubi ever needing to channel chakra into its finger to deflect the bomb. He simply flicked it away with sheer size alone.

We've seen similar events like this one take place like with Tobi using his foot and leg to redirect Kakashi's Raiton infused kunai at Naruto (an appendage I don't recall was ever stated to have been supplied with chakra to deflect the projectile so it was clearly managed with Tobi's body alone).
 

Well, because as I said, both Mokuton and the Slugs seem to have that in common, the healing property, thus making it similar.


Inherent restorative abilities aren't exclusive to Mokuton or the slugs. Sasuke noted in his mind that the power of the white snake (Orochimaru) expedited his recover and I believe the Uzumaki Clan was mentioned to have an exceptional healing rate as well.

Mokuton and the slugs are the pinnacle of healing, but the ability is manageable through independent means.
 

1. Yamato was just a replica of Hashirama's and he said he couldn't use it at Hashi's scale.
As for it being the source, I wouldn't call it that far-fetched. If you look at the tree and look at Hashirama's SM there are quite some similarities between them.
A tree that blooms which is similar to Hashi's blooming forest from which he puts to sleep people, sucks chakra, same with Hashi's being able to do so with the bijuus, also for the healing part, as we saw with Naruto, when he hit zetsu, is like trees came to live which could equal Hashi's SM healing properties.


What that basically describes is the effects of an element passed genetically from person to the other; evidenced by Yamato, Danzo, Tobi, and Madara achieving it despite having no original biological relation to Hashirama. If a senjutsu variation derived from Mokuton indeed existed then would it not be teachable to others? How does it have any sort of connection to a creature or its habitat that has no relation to Mokuton?
 

Plus, trees via the forests and slugs are related given that slugs live in the forest.


That's describing a location known as the humid bone forest, not a vegetative environment that would be conducive to Hashirama's technique.
 

So for me, I still hold my belief that it's a somewhat linked thing, however, different in some aspects and each with his SM.
But I guess we'll see it clarified later in the series. Not to mention, why woulnţt Kishi make a connection between the forest and Hashi by now, yet when it comes to that, it's only in the context with Tsunade/Sakura?

 
Why would Kimmimaro be related to Shikkotsu Forest or Hagoromo's mother despite having no affiliation with the slugs or the Sage? It's simply coincidence (as rare as it might be like the Nagato's paths being shinobi whom Jiraiya fought personally or Gaara having a unique mini bijuu transformation that's unlike the other shrouds).
 

2. True, there are some things here and there that need to be explained. There are multiple things I can guess.
It's either indeed SM but it begs the question, how did he get a contract with the slugs since he didn't have Byakugo seal as it was shown that you need the seal in order to be able to summon them.


Where was it stated that you needed the Byakugou seal to summon Katsuyu?
 

It's either Mokuton Senpou only that when you get into SM you get a special kind of "weaponry" aka the Senju Kannon statue and the self healing [because as we saw, without the SM activated he didn't heal]


Self healing is an existing ability used by others who have no affiliation to Mokuton though. I think Samehada is able to self restore itself using the chakra it eats from others. We know that linked healing is possible for the user at least.
 

OR
It's SSM and he got it through Mito who had that forehead diamond which could somewhat grant him access to the slugs via her.
But given the similarities I have seen, I tend to believe, as I said, that it has to do with the Mokuton itself. Otherwise, why haven't the slugs interacted with Hashirama till now?


Why didn't the frogs interact with Minato personally? Because the current circumstances are too stringent to allow for idle conversation.
 

3. Trust me, I did, but it doesn't fit. Hashi was never associated with Slugs till now, he never even spoke to Katsuyu till now. The one you can associate is rather with Mito than him as she had the Byakugo diamond seal.


There's an association between the seal and Katsuyu, but it's never been stated to be a prerequisite for summoning slugs. If it was mentioned then a chapter and page number would appropriately confirm it.
 

As for what it is, I know what it is, but going behind that, if you leave that up, the similarities between the tree and his mokuton is rather quite strong.

Think about it, he could very well have one because:
Three magic places associated with the 3 animals that was said to known/attain/whatever Senjutsu as in, Natural Energy.
But then, with the whole Bijuu transformation thing, in-between, we get another mention of Natural Energy. And that being TenTails... which surprinsingly transforms into a tree that has similar traits with Hashi's SM and techniques.

Thus, we have a 4th mention of Natural Energy which breaks the whole 3 magic places. Thus, we can conclude that besides those 3 magic places, there's an ultimate source of Natural Energy that is the Tree itself [somehow, dunno, this need to be further explained] which only leads logically to the idea that his SM is unique to him and has nothing to do with the Animal Trinity and their Natural Energy possesion/Sage Modes.


Again, I'm inquiring as to how Hashirama's Mokuton is somehow connected to his Sage Mode which is being ascribed to the bijuu now. We understand that Mokuton is transferable via genetics. Is it some form of mutation in Hashirama's blood alone which created the effects of this elemental combination and its affiliation to the bijuu? How did that occur in only Hashirama?

Furthermore, if Mokuton is related to the slugs, then why and how does that connection exist? Wouldn't it lend credence to the assumption that Hashirama's senjutsu is derived from slugs?

Kurama distinguished his own power from the sage arts despite the fact that his entire being is composed of natural energy; he's a fraction of the bijuu's power. If the forces of nature and the bijuu are one in the same, then why the distinction? Why was Naruto's Kagutsuchi Rasenshuriken powered by Kurama unable to hurt Tobi? The chakra used would technically classify as sage chakra, shouldn't it?

Hashirama's power is classified as sage arts, but is it the same power as the bijuu? That's the question.

#82 rocci

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:11 PM

Hashirama sm can be slug sm or tree sm.

#83 sushi.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

Thoughts..

 

Much better than last week's. And Sakura has the Byakugo! :excited: She might actually fight now because the rule can be broken, and she doesn't have to stay in one spot because we've got two healers now Shizune doesn't count.

 

However..the ending leaves me the same feeling in every chapter, it's the same cliffhanger. :arg: Naruto and Sasuke's attack fails, and we have to wait to next week for a new attack..which is probably gonna fail too. It has been like this for a while now, have you noticed? :fist:

 

I hope it won't go on for much longer, it looks like the climax is near. I also don't think Kishi coincidentally released Sakura and Tsunade's seal, now all of a sudden. :smug: Pleeeaaseeee...


Edited by sushi., 08 October 2013 - 01:16 PM.

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#84 StriderC

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

Now that Sakura has released her seal, she could possibly suffer a fatal blow that'll throw off Naruto and Obito plus bring forth the parallel. I don't think Naruto and Sasuke are gonna take down Obito. He may very well transform again and it'd be off if Kakashi isn't even back yetwhen this does happen so Naruto isn't gonna succeed I'm guessing.

#85 Paptala

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

I liked that we got to see Tsunade and Sakura team up, and that Sakura partially released her seal (the lines would spread all across her face if it were fully released, no?  Or am I recalling things completely wrong?).  I am a bit disappointed, however, that it was just to summon a bigger version of Katsuyu rather than actually fighting.  That being said, I understand that as far as tactics go, what they accomplished in this chapter was much more helpful overall to the alliance than joining the actual fighting (since it effectively nullifies the danger of the tree sucking their chakra dry), but it still felt underwhelming to me.  The chances of Sakura fully releasing her seal got bigger with this chapter, imo, and hopefully, it will be a grander moment.

 

The action in this chapter wasn't bad, but I was a bit annoyed with Naruto's answer to Obito.  So his answer for continuing to fight is simply that he doesn't give up (even though he was ready to do so in 615)?  I was expecting him to answer that he was fighting for all the people who believed in him, or something along those lines, but oh well.

 

There's also the fact that once Naruto said, "because that's my ninja way," I immediately thought of Hinata and connected it to her standing up during her fight with Neji :- /  I don't think its a hint for NaruHina or anything silly like that, it just made an already underwhelming answer slightly more irritating to me.

 

At least Naruto was showing the same resolve and determination that he used to.

 

I completely agree with NS4L3G - Naruto and Sasuke's attack is not going to succeed, or at least, not succeed completely, in the third chapter of this volume.

 

What I can't understand is why so many people think that Sakura isn't going to be in the rest of the arc - wat??? I don't see the connection at all here.  Just because she may not be as heavily involved in the actual fighting doesn't mean that we're not going to see her.  You think Kishi is going to completely omit her reactions to Naruto and Sasuke fighting Obito, especially if they are seriously injured?  We know how much Sakura worries about Naruto especially, and how much she wants to help him.  

 

Plus, I think its more likely that we'll see her seal fully released and get some action out of her in this fight rather than Naruto and Sasuke's fight (which is almost guaranteed to be a one on one fight).  I know some have predicted Taka v. Team Kakashi, but why would they fight each other?  The issue is purely a personal one between Naruto and Sasuke.  I don't think either team would interfere with it.  Fighting each other achieves them nothing, and there is no hostility between the teams either, especially given that Sakura saved Karin's life.

 

Overall, it was an alright chapter, if a little underwhelming for what transpired.  Here's hoping to get further along in the actual story progression next chapter, as well as Kakashi's return!


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#86 sushi.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:38 PM

Now that Sakura has released her seal, she could possibly suffer a fatal blow that'll throw off Naruto and Obito plus bring forth the parallel. I don't think Naruto and Sasuke are gonna take down Obito. He may very well transform again and it'd be off if Kakashi isn't even back yetwhen this does happen so Naruto isn't gonna succeed I'm guessing.

Well, Sasuke uses his susanoo to attack. And Tsunade crushed Madara's susanoo. I'm sure they can do some damage. :hehehe:


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#87 arian_rad

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:10 PM

To be fair @atheck, the comparison between all of katsuyu and one frog is an unfair one. There is a reason why katsuyu is the only one of her kind. The fair comparison would be all of the frogs from their origin vs all of katsuyu because technically we should be comparing 100% of all frogs vs 100% of katsuyu in this situation and we know that the frogs would definitely win in, since we know the comparison of frog>slug>snake. Of course gamabunta alone could not beat all of katsuyu because it's obviously not a fair comparison.

#88 Atheck

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:15 PM

To be fair @atheck, the comparison between all of katsuyu and one frog is an unfair one. There is a reason why katsuyu is the only one of her kind. The fair comparison would be all of the frogs from their origin vs all of katsuyu because technically we should be comparing 100% of all frogs vs 100% of katsuyu in this situation and we know that the frogs would definitely win in, since we know the comparison of frog>slug>snake. Of course gamabunta alone could not beat all of katsuyu because it's obviously not a fair comparison.


I'm aware of this. My conversation with Darkrest was focused on his belief that just a single frog could somehow defeat 100% Katsuyu.

#89 milan kyuubi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

So it's that time of the week...

 

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#90 sushi.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

Oh dear. -_-

 

Let people hate who they want, I know the Sakura-hate is very mainstream. But I come to H&E because I want to stay away from it.


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#91 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:38 PM

Kurama's chakra is used for the damn protection. Gezaz fu! People are really stubborn sometimes...


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#92 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:42 PM

180px-Young_Saiken.png

Does Saiken has connections with Katsuyu?

 

The Son Goku(Yonbi) refers himself as King of Sage monkeys.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 October 2013 - 02:43 PM.

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#93 sushi.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

180px-Young_Saiken.png

Does Saiken has connections with Katsuyu?

 

The Son Goku(Yonbi) refers himself as King of Sage monkeys.

If so then Son Goku will have a connection with Enma. But I don't think so because they root from different background unless you go way back to the Sage.


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#94 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:49 PM

If so then Son Goku will have a connection with Enma. But I don't think so because they root from different background unless you go way back to the Sage.

Kishi explained how the humans received chakra but never said anything about the animals.

It makes me feel that Madara's explanation is not the whole truth.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 October 2013 - 02:52 PM.

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#95 Luna

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

CHATTE!! WE should throw a lil internet party for you!! Your predictions are right like always. :D



 


#96 milan kyuubi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

 

If Kakashi and Yamato have to help Sakura fight Orochimaru then it degrades her in terms of power,

 

But if it is just Kakashi, it shows that he has surpassed his father who was said to be the equal of the Sannin, plus with Sakura she doesn't have anything that could help her against Orochimaru, All he has to do is use that snake skin thing before she lands a punch.

 

If Sakura is going to fight anyone from Taka it would ether be Jugo or Karin, as all of her attacks would be useless against Suigetsu.

 

Lol! :D She can always poison his water! :D


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#97 Atheck

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:05 PM

I had a thought just now. We know that it's possible for frogs and snakes to fuse with humans. Granting them the ability to mould sage chakra even as they're fighting. The only animal from the animal trinity that we have yet to see do this is the slug or Katsuyu. Now given what we understand of the slugs and their ability to incorporate humans into their body, is it possible that a regular human could fuse with Katsuyu as she (technically "it" but I'm starting to prefer the gender pronouns) at 100% full size? We know that she can meld with people regardless of their height, but I'm curious to see if fusion with the entire slug wouldn't be possible. What would the effects be like for the human? 


Edited by Atheck, 08 October 2013 - 03:08 PM.


#98 Codus N

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:16 PM

180px-Young_Saiken.png

Does Saiken has connections with Katsuyu?

 

The Son Goku(Yonbi) refers himself as King of Sage monkeys.

 

 

If so then Son Goku will have a connection with Enma. But I don't think so because they root from different background unless you go way back to the Sage.

 

I've always held the belief/hunch that Saiken has a connection with Shikkotsu Forest and Katsuyu. Think about it. Is it a mere coincidence that the only way to defeat the Juubi/Obito is through Senjutsu?? and since Hagoromo told the Bijuus about their primordial form, I can't help but think he passed on the knowledge of Senjutsu to Saiken in case the Juubi would be revived. In fact, I think he foresaw its revival and made contingency plans to make sure humans would be properly armed against it.

 

One of those would be the existence of Senjutsu. If the 3 sages knew of Hagoromo, then it's likely that the teachings of Senjutsu itself came from the Sage. Saiken, on the other hand was also armed with its knowledge. It's more than likely that Saiken practiced Senjutsu with Katsuyu. Why? because the Sage knew that Saiken would eventually gain Jinhuurikis as well. In order to arm humanity against the Juubi, what better way to power a Jinchuuriki with the knowledge of Senjutsu?? 

 

As for Enma and Son, it is possible that they're both acquaintanced with each other. But I doubt it. 


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#99 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

CHATTE!! WE should throw a lil internet party for you!! Your predictions are right like always. :D

Haha, well, a ninja sees underneath the underneath... :smug: :fan:

But, lol, really all has to do with Kishi's writing pattern. He's THAT obvious. :)


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#100 harry4e

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:30 PM

So are we going to see a Sage Mode Kurama combine with the Sasoono next week? that's what it looked like at the end (actually I wonder if it's possible for Naruto to link up with the Elder Toads now that Kurama is playing nice?). I am a bit worried that the First Hokage is also fighting with the aliance right now, it means Madara is off somewhere plotting something so pretty much gaurentees that no matter what the outcome of the current battle Madara will continue off where Obito left off. I

 

Can't say I was all that happy with Kakashi's monologue or what Obito was saying to Naruto, screw him, Obito had it easy compared to Naruto, he dealt with one major crisis his entire life, the death of Rin, his parent were still around for him, the girl he liked encouraged him from the start, (sad to say Sakura did not really do that until the Chunin Exams started) and His sensie actually encouraged him, unlike Kakashi who played Naruto and Sasuke against each other to motivate them, he was a crappy teacher until after the timeskip....and I still don't know if he taught Sakura anything other than tree walking, he had it easy compared to everyone else including the other villains. Kishi can't justify Obito's actions no matter how much he tries, they are weak reasons and so far is the only person who doesn't deserve redemption.

 

It was good to see Sakura get a good important role , ofcourse it will be interesting to see the haters try to blame her for affecting the Ninja's effectiveness. But damn both of them with their seal released only able to summon 10% of the slug, that's one big slug they have there.


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