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Slug Sage Mode: Is Sakura a likely candidate?

Sakura Haruno Slug Sage Mode

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#81 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:03 PM

Please read the rest of the topic. Better yet, read the original topic (Volume 66 cover) where we go into detail about Sage Mode's developmental steps and the reasons for why the seal can't be used as a supplement. In fact, just move the page back by one to "3" of this topic and you will notice an extract from the manga itself detailing why your suggestion contradicts how sage chakra is forged.
 

I get the distinct impression that you're not even reading our retorts for this which we have already given several times now. Let me reiterate my points again because either you haven't read them or you're just cherry picking certain pieces of information.

~~~

Sure it is, provided you read the entire explanation and then pay close attention to Naruto's chakra usage afterwards as he's fighting beside Minato. The two jutsu that were used both required the implementation of sage chakra after having already been formed. But why would this be necessary if sage chakra and Kurama's own supply were already combined together? It's obvious that despite Naruto having mastered control over simultaneously using the forms that he still needs to coordinate when to use chakra from each source instead of just premixing them together.

~~~

When Naruto first started using Kurama's chakra he needed to insulate it. This was clearly shown in the chapter you referenced. Because of Kurama's malicious nature, simultaneous usage of bijuu and regular chakra was impossible. But when they started to work together and Kurama was released from his prison, that restriction was lifted. Kurama is directly linking his chakra to Naruto now. It doesn't have to be isolated anymore and the bijuu chakra can be used at the same time when Naruto is moulding sage chakra from his own system.

Basically it's two different entities releasing chakra from the same body. Which is unlike before where Naruto was having to counteract the drainage of an actively hostile beast who was eating away at his chakra whilst juggling between two separated sources of power.

~~~

We discussed this in the chapter thread. The only variations in the chakra gathering process lie in the power Kurama is contributing to the form. He's willfully providing it instead of having it siphoned off to be shifted through from one form to the other. Sage Mode has remained the same. Natural energy is being mixed with physical and spiritual energy to create sage chakra which is being emitted simultaneously beside the bijuu chakra.


~~~
 

You know that this all is an assumption right?

Also if their supplies are combined, why Naruto doesnt worn out of chakra after running out of kurama's power couple of times on this battle?
Because when Bee explained even if the Kyuubi work with him together the fact that Naruto cant use two chakra remained, and Kishi broke that rule when Naruto entered the sage mode while on the kyuubi mode.

 

We get this 

"http://i20.mangaread...uto-4432177.jpg"

and this

"http://i31.mangaread...uto-4432183.jpg"

adding senjutsu or natural energy to his attacks when they are already formed, excluding the bijuu bomb part which can't see very well.

Kishi broke the senjutsu rule, and i think Sakura can learn SSM, but like you said, i doubt she will have it because i dont think Kishi has fights planned for her.

And her power-wise development is done, she's a medic ninja and her role is to be a strong support, Senjutsu is a offensive direction development power-wise.

 

And also the flashback came after her thinking about how she hated the fact that Naruto and Sasuke always had to fight protecting her.

 

TO finish up, the kyuubi chakra had an affinity with Natural energy like it's show when Naruto first entered on the chakra mode.

Would be more reasonable if Naruto could add senjutsu to Kurama's chakra instead of using his own supply, then he would not need, "let me put hermit power on this rasenga", "let me put hermit power on this bijuu bomb" and would go naturally like he did on Pain's arc.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 21 September 2013 - 02:17 PM.

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#82 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:25 PM

@atheck
Of course it can, and yes I believe she will perform byakugo or any variation of it in this arc, and maybe in the next arc by using her seal she will gain ssm

@kudos
I believe sakura will gain nature energy first than she will use katsuyu part to make it eternal just like what jiraiya did. And you give an ecchi idea where katsuyu attach to sakura. :fu:

 

The ability to manufacture large amounts of chakra quickly is a required trait on order to even begin Senjutsu training, Sakura does not have this ability, Jiraiya couldn't produce enough Spiritual Energy and Physical stamina to properly balance it with Natural Energy, so if Jiraiya someone who scored 5 out of 5 in his ability to manufacture chakra couldn't properly do it what chance does Sakura who scores only 2.5.

 

The 2.5 is from the third databook and even with how out of date this is if you go by the how much it has increased over from all three databooks that would still only put her at 3 out of 5, and just to put this in prospective Kakashi scores only a 3.5 in all databooks stated that Naruto (who scored 4 at the time) had five times (100 times when you count Kurama) as much chakra as he does.


Edited by Jake, 21 September 2013 - 02:30 PM.

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#83 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:43 PM

@jake
Well that's what her seal function, to add her chakra pool, albeit temporary.
That's why I believe she can only use sm once as soon as she release her seal.

@darkrest
I think sakura will fight orochimaru, I mean when saru seal his hand, all his fighting style always use spam snake or big snake or biggest snake or summon door. But now he has senju body(even so weaker) what he need next is sharingan. I mean why kishi creat danzou fighting style like that, because I believe orochimaru will become abomination or he already has.


Just my opinion.

#84 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:50 PM

@jake
Well that's what her seal function, to add her chakra pool, albeit temporary.
That's why I believe she can only use sm once as soon as she release her seal.

@darkrest
I think sakura will fight orochimaru, I mean when saru seal his hand, all his fighting style always use spam snake or big snake or biggest snake or summon door. But now he has senju body(even so weaker) what he need next is sharingan. I mean why kishi creat danzou fighting style like that, because I believe orochimaru will become abomination or he already has.


Just my opinion.

Orochimaru absorbed Kabuto's powers and is highly likely that he has snake sage mode now, if Orochimaru would fight someome, would be Sasuke.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 21 September 2013 - 02:50 PM.

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#85 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

@darkrest
Well it could be ^^, but I believe sasuke wouldn't do that because I believe sasuke need orochimaru to give him whatever power up he will get.
Or there will be no fight only naruto & sasuke.

#86 Atheck

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:01 PM

You know that this all is an assumption right?


The part from #645 where Naruto is augmenting his bijuu chakra created Rasengan and Bijudama with sage chakra is a fact. There was no prior intermixing in the chakra developmental process. Senjutsu was implemented after the bijuu's chakra had already been moulded to create the Rasengan and Bijudama. Which is the basis of my argument. Yes, it's technically just speculation but it's grounded in what the manga has depicted so far. And what the manga has demonstrated is Naruto providing the two different chakras separately to create one jutsu. Not that they're all mixed together.
 

Because when Bee explained even if the Kyuubi work with him together the fact that Naruto cant use two chakra remained, and Kishi broke that rule when Naruto entered the sage mode while on the kyuubi mode.

That stipulation only existed because Naruto needed to separate the two chakras from each other. Allow me to verify this with a scan from the manga.

rDdznQu.png
 
The information is proven to be true here. Naruto has distributed the chakra he gained to a remote area of his mind. Particulars about his ability to access that chakra and the repercussions are explored later on in this scan.

 0519-011.png
 
Take note of what Gyuki mentions here. 
 
Gyuki: "Just because you took the Kyubi's chakra doesn't mean you've tamed him. Bee and I used to be the same way - we went through the whole 'chakra trade phase'."
 
Notice how he's making a clear distinction between his situation and Naruto's. How they used to experience a similar predicament before this "taming" process occurred. What could that be referring to? To tame something means to either subdue or domesticate something; when speaking the word in its most common definitions that is. 
 
We know that Killer Bee and Gyuki are on amicable terms with each other. Because of the bijuu's geniality towards his jinchuuriki here, he was released from his cage and so his chakra became directly available for said jinchuuriki to use. That's the distinction here. Naruto and Kurama were still aggressive towards each other which is why the bijuu's chakra needed to be isolated. But when they finally reached an agreement with each other, that literally opened the same door which Gyuki and Bee entered through. They no longer had to rely on the chakra exchange system that was explicitly distinguished from the system that Bee and Gyuki use.  
 
That's what I've been trying to explain to you for some time now. 
 

We get this 
"http://i20.mangaread...uto-4432177.jpg"
and this
"http://i31.mangaread...uto-4432183.jpg"
adding senjutsu or natural energy to his attacks when they are already formed, excluding the bijuu bomb part which can see very well.


This was already explained above. There was no discrepancy with the Bijudama. It's a simultaneous usage of bijuu and sage chakra.
 

Kishi broke the senjutsu rule,


No, he didn't. Both Kurama and Gyuki separated the types of chakra from each other when they were presenting their explanations. When Naruto began to work together with his, he regained access to his usual reserves; hence the parts about "sectioning off the chakra to a different place" and "shelving your own chakra for the bijuu's" becoming a moot point. The only altered variable in all of this is the availability of two different chakras. Naruto can provide natural energy to his own reserves whilst Kurama streams his own bijuu chakra to maintain KM.
 

but like you said, i doubt she will have it because i dont think Kishi has fights planned for her.And her power-wise development is done, she's a medic ninja and her role is to be a strong support, Senjutsu is a offensive direction development power-wise, it doesnt match with Sakura's character after all, unless if it only improve her healing techniques.


This is the only segment in your post that I actually agree with. If for whatever reason Kishi chose to contrive this power up for Sakura, it would likely go almost completely unused since acting as the team medic is the most important priority for her. There is also what I mentioned previously about Kishi's predilection for his male characters.
 

And also the flashback came after her thinking about how she hated the fact that Naruto and Sasuke always had to fight protecting her.


They were interconnected with each other. In fact, that was one of the original motivations for Sakura seeking Tsunade out in the first place. You're just describing the reasons for her desire to acquire Tsunade's techniques.
 

TO finish up, the kyuubi chakra had an affinity with Natural energy like it's show when Naruto first entered on the chakra mode.


It's shown to have an affiliation with life energy, not natural energy. That would correlate with Kurama's chakra being Yang oriented. Yang which has been stated to instill life into the lifeless. That would account for Naruto's ability inducing a reaction from any nearby Mokuton or Senju based substances.
 

Would be more reasonable if Naruto could add senjutsu to Kurama's chakra instead of using his own supply, then he would not need, "let me put hermit power on this rasenga", "let me put hermit power on this bijuu bomb"


Possibly, but it's not shown that this is reasonable. For Kurama's chakra to develop senjutsu properties, Kurama would have to create the sage chakra himself. He assumes a meditative pose like a sage does when he is creating chakra but if it was the same as senjutsu then the Amaterasu powered Rasenshuriken would have damaged Tobi.

Edited by Atheck, 21 September 2013 - 03:09 PM.


#87 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:11 PM

@jake
Well that's what her seal function, to add her chakra pool, albeit temporary.
That's why I believe she can only use sm once as soon as she release her seal.

@darkrest
I think sakura will fight orochimaru, I mean when saru seal his hand, all his fighting style always use spam snake or big snake or biggest snake or summon door. But now he has senju body(even so weaker) what he need next is sharingan. I mean why kishi creat danzou fighting style like that, because I believe orochimaru will become abomination or he already has.


Just my opinion.

 

How many times do I have to say this, It is impossible to add Natural Energy to Chakra, trying to add Natural Energy to Chakra is like trying to add sugar to a cake after you baked it.

 

The seal does not increase the amount of chakra that she can produce, it only increases the amount of chakra she has on hand. she can not change said chakra into Senjutsu chakra and neither can Katsuyu, even if you use Jiraiya, Fukasaku and Shiima for an example, Jiraiya was already in Sage Mode before he summoned them.


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#88 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

@jake
Well it's not add sugar to baked cake but more like adding ice cream chakra made of physical chocolate energy and mind vanilla energy swirl with nature mint energy and you got nature-all chakra icecream.

Of course the seal didn't add her chakra produce, but only her chakra pool and I think it's still possible to perform ssm.

#89 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

@jake
Well it's not add sugar to baked cake but more like adding ice cream chakra made of physical chocolate energy and mind vanilla energy swirl with nature mint energy and you got nature-all chakra icecream.

Of course the seal didn't add her chakra produce, but only her chakra pool and I think it's still possible to perform ssm.

 

You can not add natural energy to chakra, once chakra is made you can not add anything too it.


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#90 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:41 PM

Well from my understanding chakra is physical and spiritual energy.
So you can add another energy to chakra.
That's why I use gamakichi icecream chakra analogy. You only need to add it.

#91 Atheck

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:45 PM

Well from my understanding chakra is physical and spiritual energy.
So you can add another energy to chakra.
That's why I use gamakichi icecream chakra analogy. You only need to add it.


You can add another energy to physical and spiritual energy. Chakra is those aforementioned energies already moulded together.

#92 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

It was stated in the manga that you can not add nature transformation (Wind release, Fire release, Lightning release ect.) to chakra so why would it be possible to add Natural energy?


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#93 Codus N

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:48 PM

No because with the Enton: Rasenshuriken, Sasuke is adding his Enton Chakra to Naruto's Rasenshuriken, it no different then the collab jutsu Naruto and Yamato used back during the Hiden and Kukaku arc.

 

While it maybe possible for Katsuyu to manufacture Senjutsu chakra like Fukusaku and Shiima it won't be Sakura entering Sage Mode it will be Katuyu, it would be no different then Jugo adding Senjutsu chakra to Sasuke's Susanoo, but it would only work if the Senjutsu chakra is added to the Jutsu otherwise Sakura could end up like the Pain body that absorbed chakra when it sucked up Naruto's Senjutsu chakra.

 

 

 

The ability to manufacture large amounts of chakra quickly is a required trait on order to even begin Senjutsu training, Sakura does not have this ability, Jiraiya couldn't produce enough Spiritual Energy and Physical stamina to properly balance it with Natural Energy, so if Jiraiya someone who scored 5 out of 5 in his ability to manufacture chakra couldn't properly do it what chance does Sakura who scores only 2.5.

 

The 2.5 is from the third databook and even with how out of date this is if you go by the how much it has increased over from all three databooks that would still only put her at 3 out of 5, and just to put this in prospective Kakashi scores only a 3.5 in all databooks stated that Naruto (who scored 4 at the time) had five times (100 times when you count Kurama) as much chakra as he does.

 

Actually, Naruto scored a perfect 5 in the 3rd databook.

 

Hmm.... Sakura's taijutsu works by building up chakra to her fists and legs and releasing it in an instant, what if she has Katsuyu gather or create Senjutsu Chakra and transfer it to her body, but before the effects even begin to take over her body, she releases the chakra in that instant.

 

Or much like how the Pain example works, the senjutsu chakra is transferred to Sakura, but unlike how the Pain body failed to keep all 3 energies in balance, Sakura uses her superior chakra control to balance it out. And again, going back to my previous point about the seal, if we're going by your explanation, then releasing the seal should allow her to use Senjutsu. Why? because releasing the seal means she is releasing chakra into her system. Much like how Naruto releases Chakra to create Rasengan.

 

And this is a bit farfetched, but what if it's also like this? Tsunade's seal allows her to heal beyond what is supposed to be a human's physical abilities. As noted before by Shizune, humans can regenerate and split their cells at a certain limit to recover. Tsunade's seal forces her to go beyond that. What if Sakura's seal can force herself to produce the physical and spiritual energy beyond her limits?

 

@jake
Well it's not add sugar to baked cake but more like adding ice cream chakra made of physical chocolate energy and mind vanilla energy swirl with nature mint energy and you got nature-all chakra icecream.

Of course the seal didn't add her chakra produce, but only her chakra pool and I think it's still possible to perform ssm.

 

Jake, let me handle this. Please forgive rocci for his lack of English, I think he's just confused. We're from the same country, and he's not quite as good as I am.

 

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#94 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

 

 

 

Actually, Naruto scored a perfect 5 in the 3rd databook.

 

 

Yes I know that Naruto scored a perfect 5 in the third data book but Kakashi said that during the Wave country arc, when Naruto only scored a 4.

 

Hmm.... Sakura's taijutsu works by building up chakra to her fists and legs and releasing it in an instant, what if she has Katsuyu gather or create Senjutsu Chakra and transfer it to her body, but before the effects even begin to take over her body, she releases the chakra in that instant.

 

 

I guess it is possible but the risk would still be their, remember the only way Fukusaku could stop Naruto's transformation was to hit him with his staff.

 

Or much like how the Pain example works, the senjutsu chakra is transferred to Sakura, but unlike how the Pain body failed to keep all 3 energies in balance, Sakura uses her superior chakra control to balance it out. And again, going back to my previous point about the seal, if we're going by your explanation, then releasing the seal should allow her to use Senjutsu. Why? because releasing the seal means she is releasing chakra into her system. Much like how Naruto releases Chakra to create Rasengan.

 

The problem with that is that the three energies were already balanced since they are already in the form of chakra, unless Naruto had them intentionally unbalanced :headscratch:.

 

Also for the Naruto releasing chakra thing, remember just because Naruto enters Sage Mode doesn't meen he is out of Normal chakra, he has just stopped producing normal chakra, but it's still in him just like Kurama's chakra is.

 

And this is a bit farfetched, but what if it's also like this? Tsunade's seal allows her to heal beyond what is supposed to be a human's physical abilities. As noted before by Shizune, humans can regenerate and split their cells at a certain limit to recover. Tsunade's seal forces her to go beyond that. What if Sakura's seal can force herself to produce the physical and spiritual energy beyond her limits?

 

I don't think it could because if it did then Tsunade would be able to constantly manufacture chakra at an ever increasing rate while it seal is activated, and if that were the case then she wouldn't have needed Dan to give her more chakra.

 

Jake, let me handle this. Please forgive rocci for his lack of English, I think he's just confused. We're from the same country, and he's not quite as good as I am.

 

translate

 

Thanks for the help :shake:.


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#95 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:14 PM

Because nature affinity(element) is not same with nature energy. Chakra is energy and by adding another energy it will make another chakra. In this case adding nature energy to chakra(psychical and spiritua energyl) thus gaining nature chakra.

Edited by rocci, 21 September 2013 - 04:18 PM.


#96 Atheck

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

Because nature affinity(element) is not same with nature energy. Chakra is energy and by adding another energy it will make another chakra. In this case adding nature energy to chakra(psychical and spiritual) this gaining nature chakra.


The sage charka is created as the chakra itself is being made inside of the person. There is no extended process, no additional steps, it all occurs as the building blocks of chakra accumulate. We've provided the diagram depicting this process countless times and there's nothing contradicting that. Why are you having such a difficult time grasping this?

#97 Jake

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

Because nature affinity(element) is not same with nature energy. Chakra is energy and by adding another energy it will make another chakra. In this case adding nature energy to chakra(psychical and spiritual) this gaining nature chakra.

 

No in both cases the third element must be present when you start to manufacture the chakra.


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#98 Codus N

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:00 PM

 

Yes I know that Naruto scored a perfect 5 in the third data book but Kakashi said that during the Wave country arc, when Naruto only scored a 4.

 

 

I guess it is possible but the risk would still be their, remember the only way Fukusaku could stop Naruto's transformation was to hit him with his staff.

 

 

The problem with that is that the three energies were already balanced since they are already in the form of chakra, unless Naruto had them intentionally unbalanced :headscratch:.

 

Also for the Naruto releasing chakra thing, remember just because Naruto enters Sage Mode doesn't meen he is out of Normal chakra, he has just stopped producing normal chakra, but it's still in him just like Kurama's chakra is.

 

 

I don't think it could because if it did then Tsunade would be able to constantly manufacture chakra at an ever increasing rate while it seal is activated, and if that were the case then she wouldn't have needed Dan to give her more chakra.

 

 

Thanks for the help :shake:.

 

-Hmm... I don't remember Kakashi saying that... As far as I remember, the only time he specified the amount of Chakra Naruto has is during the Rasenshuriken training.

 

-Well, I could see it as possible for her. If she were to surpass Tsunade, then it would be likely in this regard, where her chakra control is at the point where she can release Senjutsu from Katsuyu before the effects take part.

 

-The Pain part is definitely ambiguous at best. I always saw it as Naruto drawing in Nature energy and balancing it together with the other 2 energies, but since he knows Pain was absorbing his chakra, it wouldn't matter to him anyways because Pain wouldn't be able to balance the 3 energies together. The only reason why Naruto balanced it as usual is so that he won't transform.

 

As for the releasing chakra thing, that's the whole point really. By releasing chakra into her system, all she needs is to add Senjutsu Chakra into her body through Katsuyu.

 

-Which is why I made a distinction between Tsunade and Sakura. Tsunade's version allows her to heal beyond what is supposed to be possible for her body to be capable of. Sakura's version not only allows her to have the same healing factor as Tsunade's, but also allowing her to produce spiritual and physical energy beyond limits. But of course, this is only speculation.

 

   

Because nature affinity(element) is not same with nature energy. Chakra is energy and by adding another energy it will make another chakra. In this case adding nature energy to chakra(psychical and spiritua energyl) thus gaining nature chakra.

 

translate

 

Atheck, I know you're frustrated, but please keep in mind that some of the members don't have English as their first language. Put it simply, rocci is just confused, I think.


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#99 rocci

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

Still you can add nature energy to already existing chakra thus make nature chakra.

#100 Codus N

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:21 PM

No, Nature energy is different from Senjutsu Chakra. Senjutsu Chakra is what you get from adding nature energy to the 2 other energies. It is possible to add Senjutsu Chakra to your own chakra.

 

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