181 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

1. You don't know what Hinata did after giving ointment to Naruto. You can't tell me she didn't because you don't have a clue.

2. How is she not thinking about her clan but she's thinking about Naruto? Also, her clan didn't seem to care much for her when her own father left her to Kurenai and didn't care whether or not she died.

3. Yes, Naruto is someone she loves. After the war, she said she's going to stop chasing him. Why? Because now that she's confessed, and they had the "In Your Eyes" conversation, she feels confident. How is that selfish?

4. Her hand comment, as I said before isn't a reason to hate her either, or get all up in arms calling her selfish when she isn't.

5. I'm sure she's very thankful to Neji. She gave an entire speech that centered around reminding Naruto of Neji's sacrifice and such.

Yeah, I'm done arguing this because you find her actions during these moments selfish, I do not. You're right, nothing is going to change so why bother. As for Don-Kun, I understand lol. No worries.

Ah, well I do not necessarily say that she is selfish, but I do think that such a linear mindset makes her a character that is a bit annoying and not very intriguing or worth getting to know . But that's how I see it Pink Chidori. Although to be honest If people, are annoyed that Sakura had such a Sasuke based mentality, then this annoyance should extend to Hinata as well cause she is not really different. just saying if

I'm not saying she's selfish, I don't think she is selfish but I can understand why people would think so and the reason is because Kishi did a bad job she' s not supposed to be seen as selfish but the fact she is so obssessed with Naruto make some people think she is.
I was just responding to your post saying she did it to save Naruto which is wrong, she did it to confess because she knew she wouldn't have an other chance, not to save Naruto. Confessing under the circumstances was selfish, nothing to do with her wanting to have a relationship with Naruto and I don't know where did you get that from my post. Hope I was clear this time around.

Yeah, that's probably it. Kishimoto may not bey portraying her the way he intended. but the same could be said for Sakura. I mean, she's the heroine but feels like she is often neglected for some reason. Not bashing here but that's how I see it. Sakura is one of my favorites,which is why I'd like to see more of her, cause her development as a character is great but she is not focused on much which is the sad thing. With Hinata.. it is more along the lines of can't seem to have her not thinking about Naruto. it just makes one's character uninteresting is all.

Edited by Phantom_999, 31 March 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[Pink Chidori]

Ah, well I do not necessarily say that she is selfish, but I do think that such a linear mindset makes her a character that is a bit annoying and not very intriguing or worth getting to know . But that's how I see it Pink Chidori. Although to be honest If people, are annoyed that Sakura had such a Sasuke based mentality, then this annoyance should extend to Hinata as well cause she is not really different. just saying if

Yeah, that's probably it. Kishimoto may not bey portraying her the way he intended. but the same could be said for Sakura. I mean, she's the heroine but feels like she is often neglected for some reason. Not bashing here but that's how I see it. Sakura is one of my favorites,which is why I'd like to see more of her, cause her development as a character is great but she is not focused on much which is the sad thing. With Hinata.. it is more along the lines of can't seem to have her not thinking about Naruto. it just makes one's character uninteresting is all.

This is true. Sakura had a Sasuke based mentality, and if they feel that Hinata is the same, then it makes sense for the annoyance to happen on both or either side.

I really feel like Sakura is being trolled right now. I mean, people have been poking fun at her because Kishi drew a panel with Sakura being hit by a rock. I'm mad that Kishi hasn't shown her in a major fight since Sasori. She's your main heroine Kishi! Do Sakura some friggin justice! This powerhouse can smash large boulders and make craters in the ground for godsake, she should not be getting saved all the time. >_>

I love Sakura as a character and that's why I'm angry. She's the heroine, she's supposed to be awesome. I want to think that he's just following the "cherry blossoms bloom late" thing and have her somehow power up in this war, but I won't dare to believe it.

I'm not saying she's selfish, I don't think she is selfish but I can understand why people would think so and the reason is because Kishi did a bad job she' s not supposed to be seen as selfish but the fact she is so obssessed with Naruto make some people think she is. I was just responding to your post saying she did it to save Naruto which is wrong, she did it to confess because she knew she wouldn't have an other chance, not to save Naruto. Confessing under the circumstances was selfish, nothing to do with her wanting to have a relationship with Naruto and I don't know where did you get that from my post. Hope I was clear this time around.

I don't think it's really a matter of her being "obsessed" with Naruto (because I don't believe she is) as much as it is Kishi screwing up with his female characters yet again. Hinata is portrayed (or it looks this way to some viewers) as someone who seems to be obsessive and only cares about Naruto, because Kishi didn't bother to expand on her entire life story. Really, all we got was what happened between her father and her to make her have such low confidence and drive. We also saw a bit into the Hyuga clan troubles. But Kishi (in all honesty) hasn't shown Hinata doing much outside of things that involve Naruto in it.

And that is not Hinata's fault because she is generally not a selfish or obsessive character, but it's the fault of the author who didn't expand more on Hinata's relationships with others such as Kiba, Shino and Kurenai, so whenever she shows up and gets moments, Naruto is centered around it. But then look what happened with Kurenai! Got pregnant, faded into the background. Asuma got more screentime than her, and she's the same-level sensei as he is. It's just Kishi sucks at writing female roles. Rarely is there a time Kishi places Hinata into a moment without Naruto being pretty involved. I would have liked to see more with her relationship with Neji and the others. But I actually have to say the same thing about characters like Shino, Kiba and Tenten, who were the most severely neglected out of all the rookies.

[Beastbomb]

I mean, people have been poking fun at her because Kishi drew a panel with Sakura being hit by a rock. I'm mad that Kishi hasn't shown her in a major fight since Sasori. She's your main heroine Kishi! Do Sakura some friggin justice! This powerhouse can smash large boulders and make craters in the ground for godsake, she should not be getting saved all the time. >_>

What panel is this? Why would Kishi do this? Just doesn't make since.

Edited by Beastbomb, 31 March 2013 - 10:59 PM.

[Pink Chidori]

What panel is this? Why would Kishi do this? Just doesn't make since.

I believe it was this panel:

http://i6.mangapanda...uto-3747573.jpg

Upper left hand corner.

Now, I think the Juubi just blew her and the rest of them back and debris flew up along with it,
but the whole "hit by a rock" thing was joked about for a while. Still kind of is.

Edited by Pink Chidori, 01 April 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I believe it was this panel:

http://i6.mangapanda...uto-3747573.jpg

Upper left hand corner.

Now, I think the Juubi just blew her and the rest of them back and debris flew up along with it,
but the whole "hit by a rock" thing was joked about for a while. Still kind of is.

She wasnt hit by the rock people joked just because they are haters and i dont care.

[Sakura_Blossom]

Basically, I have nothing against Hinata, even like her but this is due more to my love of the Hyuga clan in general than just for his character. I really do not like their fans (with exceptions) and this is what makes me despise her even though I do not like to admit. For me Hinata had potential to be much more than what was shown, but by his own personality or sliding Kishimoto, she became like a simple character, without any shine.
I am not able to forgive her for not being able to lead the clan and this is really my biggest problem with it, this is one of its flaws, instead devoting himself to stay strong, she trained to impress Naruto, to be able to be with him. She never does anything for anyone other than Naruto, except for fillers, which are always trying to portray it better than it really is. Even during the Neji's death, she shed a few tears and then was apparently well, not bother me that she has not been thrown over her body, endless tears, after all is a war, but his thoughts were about Naruto. as usual.
What I mean is that whenever it appears Hinata about Naruto, his developments are always on Naruto, your thoughts, your attitudes. Just as Sakura was with Sasuke during Part 1. I do not approve of Sakura and she is my favorite character. All I can say Hinata is that her character is just that, its development began in Naruto and continues in it, there is nothing left to explore.

[Shadow1275]

Hinata is not a bad character, she is not developed well. She has some interesting plot points such as her relationship with Neji and her relationship with her father. These could have made her more of an interesting character. However, they are not fully explored as Hizashi is more interested in Neji and we never learn how Neji's opinion is because he sacrifices himself to save Naruto. Hinata had a lot more potential than just focusing on Naruto but for some reason Kishimoto never chose to focus on anything besides her crush on Naruto and if Naruto does not answer her feelings, you have to wonder where she can go from here?

[James S Cassidy]

I want to come back here and do a huge run down of Hinata's character or at least what I feel is a run down.

First of all, my huge problem is not with Hinata's character at all. I can understand her character completely. She is a slightly selfish fangirl who has grown in confidence, but not in skills. Before you say anything, keep reading because there is so much more to tell.

Let's break down Hinata for a moment.
Why is she selfish? (even in the slightest)
The answer is in the scenes that play out with her. In part 1, she was innocent, shy, and very fangirlish. While I understand this, I also understand that this has not helped her in the slightest. As I have pointed out on many occasions in part 1 she has shown to never put her feelings aside to really help Naruto. Yeah, you can argue that she gave Naruto the ointment, but this was help that Naruto didn't really need. While a nice gesture it's not something to be remembered for. However, she wasn't there when Naruto was alone and depressed. Again, the argument is that she was shy, but this very thing is the reason why it is bad. This is why Naruto never noticed her.

You know who was there? Sakura. Oh sure, she didn't love him then, but that's the beauty part about development. She eventually began to love and respect him and it grew bigger all the way through the entire manga. This is important. Meanwhile while all this is going on, shy Hinata, who should be the one there, is sitting back and watching praying on a magic star that Naruto notices her. (Even when he does, she ends up fainting the entire time.)

Fast forward to Shippuden and we have several moments where Hinata is more outspoken, but she is still a fangirl and selfish. How is she selfish? Well, I'll go by the more major parts of the manga. We have the confession which is a huge marker for her. The first time she asserts herself. (Meanwhile, we have tons of scenes of Sakura being a heavy influence on Naruto, her feelings changing for him, and etc. We know this, we see this. No need to explain it.) In Hinata's confession, however, we have her jumping in, confessing, and then getting owned by Pein. What's wrong with this? Several. Was it selfish that she jumped into a fight she knew she couldn't win? No, but what does make this selfish is that she didn't even attempt to help Naruto at all. She could have removed the spikes, created a distraction, anything, but she didn't. This is what makes her selfish. (The fact that the anime had to add to the scene to draw it out more is proof of it) We also got chapter 573 which again shows her selfish thoughts of wanting to be with Naruto and holding his hand and such. Meanwhile, everyone else shows how they want to support Naruto and support the war. Sakura herself shows an even bigger story altogether and says that she will be with Naruto and face everything with him. Again, Sakura is about Naruto, Hinata is about her own fantasy. To me, this is selfish and no, I am not changing my opinion about this. She may do selfless acts, but she does it for selfish reasons.

615 comes and again, Hinata shows how selfish she really is and funny enough the scene didn't start out that way. It started out in a way that seemed like a real scene, but then we have Hinata ruin it by commenting on how "big and warm" Naruto's hand is. *facepalm* That whole scene ruined again.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.

Sakura has her moments of stupidity too and moments that many look down upon, but the biggest difference is she didn't do it for Naruto's attention or some fantasy. She did it because she didn't want Naruto to suffer anymore. It wasn't about her, it was about him and she was willing to give up everything for his happiness. That is true love right there.

However, I understand all this. This doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the fanbases themselves. The fact that Sakura gets just dumped on for all her mistakes, but Hinata gets forgiven for hers when even she admits she made mistakes. Hinata has made some pretty big mistakes that many have gotten her out of. Naruto saved her, Neji saved her, even Sakura saved her, but I am supposed to believe she is a strong woman? Okay, actual strength alone doesn't make a strong woman, but the fact that Hinata has focused more on her love for Naruto than actually developing her own skills really puts a damper on her character. She has not won one fight in this entire manga. Not one. What does that say? She couldn't even take out Zetsu clones.

Why is Sakura so heavily criticized, but when Hinata does it, it is okay?
Sakura jumps in front of danger to protect Naruto: "Look how stupid she is."
Hinata does it: "Oh, that is so cute. She loves him so much to die for him."

Sakura, who Kishi says was honest, comes up with a plan to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden: "Wow, what a liar and a B***ch. I hope she dies."
Hinata jumps in the fray, nearly dies and causes Naruto to turn almost 9-tails almost killing everyone and everything in the Hidden Leaf: "Oh she is so precious. Look how devoted she is. She is so brave to sacrifice everything."

Sakura fangirls over Sasuke: "Wow, I hate fangirls. They disgust me."
Hinata fangirls over Naruto: "Wow, that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE. She is the best girlfriend ever. Naruto is a fool to pass that up. I'm crying."

This double standard just urks me to no end and it is by far worse than anything Kishi has done.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 02 April 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[AnaHatakechan]

Personally I am not a big fan of Hinata and I find her to be a bit of a Mary-Sue. Meaning that she seems to perfect from my perspective. I know her as a character has flaws but her fans make her out to be this goddess and they have ruined Hinata for me. I don't mind people favouring Hinata over my favourite characters but if they constantly compare Hinata to another character especially when Hinata does not interact with the said character then it becomes annoying.
Now I find that what drives Hinata's character is mainly Naruto. I wouldn't say that's the only thing though, but it sure looks that way. But that's my bias talking.
My respect for Hinata seems to go up and down like a yoyo. One minute I start thinking hey she's not all bad, but she'd prove me wrong somehow. Like chapter 615 for example. Her speech was inpiration for Naruto and gave him a confidence boost instead of it being the other way around. But the only problem here is that some Hinata/NaruHin fans forget that it was Kurama who restores Naruto's confidence, not that Hinata didn't. She did but Naruto still had his doubts. I have to admit that I liked that speech and my respect for Hinata was the highest it had ever been...right up to the point when she made that comment on Naruto's big warm hand it was shattered into tiny pieces within seconds after reading that one panel.
I felt that was uncalled for really. Her cousin died protecting her, sure she cried but she bounced back quite quickly...a little too quickly considering the two of them had developed a bond. I would have preferred it if Hinata had thought of something about Neji possibly avenging his death or something along those lines.
Hinata seems to be a character that a lot of people can relate to. Hinata kind of shows that if you work hard you can change yourself. This is a good thing, but not when it's for someone else. Hinata wants to change for Naruto. It would be a lot better if she wanted to change herself for herself and no one else. I would like Hinata's character if she had the goal to prove her father wrong and become head of the Hyuga household. Not for a crush on a guy who considered her to be a weirdo back in part one. She should be loved for who she is and she shouldn't have to change.
I also find that Hinata's love for Naruto is not really real. I find that she doesn't know him enough to actual accept him. I find that she only loves this strong confident shinobi who never gives up no matter what and doesn't know him well enough to truly love him. Despite what a lot of NaruHina fans say. I don't believe in love at first sight nor do I believe that someone could possibly fall in love with someone without knowing anything about them. Her love for Naruto is selfish and to me is she is in fact a fact a Fangirl.

Edited by AnaHatakechan, 01 April 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Gravenimage]

I want to come back here and do a huge run down of Hinata's character or at least what I feel is a run down.

First of all, my huge problem is not with Hinata's character at all. I can understand her character completely. She is a slightly selfish, fangirl who has grown in confidence, but not in skills. Before you say anything, keep reading because there is so much more to tell.

Let's break down Hinata for a moment.
Why is she selfish? (even slightest)
The answer is in the scenes that play out with her. In part 1, she was innocent, shy, and very fangirlish. While I understand this, I also understand that this has not help her in the slightest. As I have pointed out on many occasions in part 1 she has shown to never put her feeling aside to really help Naruto. Yeah, you can argue that she gave Naruto the ointment, but this was help that Naruto didn't really need. While a nice gesture it's not something to be remembered for. However, she wasn't there when Naruto was alone and depressed. Again, the argument is that she was shy, but this very thing is the reason why it is bad. This is why Naruto never noticed her.

You know who was there? Sakura. Oh sure, she didn't love him then, but that's the beauty part about development. She eventually began to love and respect him and it grew bigger all the way through the entire manga. This is important. Meanwhile while all this is going on, shy Hinata who should be the one there is sitting back and watching praying on a magic star that Naruto notices her. (Even when he does, she ends up fainting the entire time.)

Fast forward to Shippuden and we have several moments where Hinata is more outspoken, but she is still a fangirl and selfish. How is she selfish? Well, I'll go by the more major parts of the manga. We have the confession which is a huge marker for her. The first time she asserts herself. (Meanwhile, we have tons of scenes of Sakura being a heavy influence on Naruto, her feelings changing for him, and etc. We know this, we see this. No need to explain it.) In Hinata's confession, however, we have her jumping in, confessing, and then getting owned by Pein. What's wrong with this? Several. Was it selfish that she jumped into a fight she knew she couldn't win? No, but what does make this selfish is that she didn't even attempt to help Naruto at all. She could have removed the spikes, created a distraction, anything, but she didn't. This is what makes her selfish. (The fact that the anime had to add to the scene to draw it out more is proof of it) We also got chapter 573 which again shows her selfish thoughts of wanting to be with Naruto and holding his hand and such. Meanwhile, everyone else shows how they want to support Naruto and support the war. Sakura herself shows an even bigger story alltogether and says that she will be with Naruto and face everything with him. Again, Sakura is about Naruto, Hinata is about her own fantasy. To me, this is selfish and no, I am not changing my opinion about this. She may do selfless acts, but she does it for selfish reasons.

615 comes and again, Hinata shows how selfish she really is and funny enough the scene didn't start out that way. It started out in a way that seemed like a real scene, but then we have Hinata ruin it by commenting on how "big and warm" Naruto's hand is. *facepalm* That whole scene ruined again.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.

Sakura has her moments of stupidity too and moments that many look down upon, but the biggest difference is she didn't do it for Naruto's attention or some fantasy. She did it because she didn't want Naruto to suffer anymore. It wasn't about her, it was about him and she was willing to give up everything for his happiness. That is true love right there.

However, I understand all this. This doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the fanbase themselves. The fact that Sakura gets just dumped on for all her mistakes, but Hinata gets forgiven for hers when even she admits she made mistakes. Hinata has made some pretty big mistakes that many have gotten her out of. Naruto saved her, Neji saved her, even Sakura saved her, but I am supposed to believe she is a strong women? Okay, actual strength alone doesn't make a strong women, but the fact that Hinatw has focused more on her love for Naruto than actually developing her own skills really puts a damper on her character. She has not won one fight in this entire manga. Not one. What does that say? She couldn't even take out Zetsu clones.

Why is Sakura so heavily criticized, but when Hinata does it it is okay?
Sakura jumps in front of danger to protect Naruto: "Look how stupid she is."
Hinata does it: "Oh, that is so cute. She loves him so much to die for him."

Sakura, who Kishi says was honest, comes up with a plan to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden: "Wow, what a liar and a B***ch. I hope she dies."
Hinata jumps in the fray, nearly dies and causes Naruto to turn almost 9-tails almost killing everyone and everything in the Hidden Leaf: "Oh she is so precious. Look how devoted she is. She is so brave to sacrifice everything."

Sakura fangirls over Sasuke: "Wow, I hate fangirls. They disgust me."
Hinata fangirls over Naruto: "Wow that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE. She is the best girlfriend ever,. Naruto is fool to pass that up. I'm crying."

This double standard just urks me to no end and it is b far worse than anything Kishi has down.

This^ bravo James you just said what I have repeated several times before about her character. The only one to blame is Kishimoto for making her that way and not developing her into a correct character, then you add her fandom its complete utter chaos.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I want to come back here and do a huge run down of Hinata's character or at least what I feel is a run down.

First of all, my huge problem is not with Hinata's character at all. I can understand her character completely. She is a slightly selfish, fangirl who has grown in confidence, but not in skills. Before you say anything, keep reading because there is so much more to tell.

Let's break down Hinata for a moment.
Why is she selfish? (even slightest)
The answer is in the scenes that play out with her. In part 1, she was innocent, shy, and very fangirlish. While I understand this, I also understand that this has not help her in the slightest. As I have pointed out on many occasions in part 1 she has shown to never put her feeling aside to really help Naruto. Yeah, you can argue that she gave Naruto the ointment, but this was help that Naruto didn't really need. While a nice gesture it's not something to be remembered for. However, she wasn't there when Naruto was alone and depressed. Again, the argument is that she was shy, but this very thing is the reason why it is bad. This is why Naruto never noticed her.

You know who was there? Sakura. Oh sure, she didn't love him then, but that's the beauty part about development. She eventually began to love and respect him and it grew bigger all the way through the entire manga. This is important. Meanwhile while all this is going on, shy Hinata who should be the one there is sitting back and watching praying on a magic star that Naruto notices her. (Even when he does, she ends up fainting the entire time.)

Fast forward to Shippuden and we have several moments where Hinata is more outspoken, but she is still a fangirl and selfish. How is she selfish? Well, I'll go by the more major parts of the manga. We have the confession which is a huge marker for her. The first time she asserts herself. (Meanwhile, we have tons of scenes of Sakura being a heavy influence on Naruto, her feelings changing for him, and etc. We know this, we see this. No need to explain it.) In Hinata's confession, however, we have her jumping in, confessing, and then getting owned by Pein. What's wrong with this? Several. Was it selfish that she jumped into a fight she knew she couldn't win? No, but what does make this selfish is that she didn't even attempt to help Naruto at all. She could have removed the spikes, created a distraction, anything, but she didn't. This is what makes her selfish. (The fact that the anime had to add to the scene to draw it out more is proof of it) We also got chapter 573 which again shows her selfish thoughts of wanting to be with Naruto and holding his hand and such. Meanwhile, everyone else shows how they want to support Naruto and support the war. Sakura herself shows an even bigger story alltogether and says that she will be with Naruto and face everything with him. Again, Sakura is about Naruto, Hinata is about her own fantasy. To me, this is selfish and no, I am not changing my opinion about this. She may do selfless acts, but she does it for selfish reasons.

615 comes and again, Hinata shows how selfish she really is and funny enough the scene didn't start out that way. It started out in a way that seemed like a real scene, but then we have Hinata ruin it by commenting on how "big and warm" Naruto's hand is. *facepalm* That whole scene ruined again.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.

Sakura has her moments of stupidity too and moments that many look down upon, but the biggest difference is she didn't do it for Naruto's attention or some fantasy. She did it because she didn't want Naruto to suffer anymore. It wasn't about her, it was about him and she was willing to give up everything for his happiness. That is true love right there.

However, I understand all this. This doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the fanbase themselves. The fact that Sakura gets just dumped on for all her mistakes, but Hinata gets forgiven for hers when even she admits she made mistakes. Hinata has made some pretty big mistakes that many have gotten her out of. Naruto saved her, Neji saved her, even Sakura saved her, but I am supposed to believe she is a strong women? Okay, actual strength alone doesn't make a strong women, but the fact that Hinatw has focused more on her love for Naruto than actually developing her own skills really puts a damper on her character. She has not won one fight in this entire manga. Not one. What does that say? She couldn't even take out Zetsu clones.

Why is Sakura so heavily criticized, but when Hinata does it it is okay?
Sakura jumps in front of danger to protect Naruto: "Look how stupid she is."
Hinata does it: "Oh, that is so cute. She loves him so much to die for him."

Sakura, who Kishi says was honest, comes up with a plan to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden: "Wow, what a liar and a B***ch. I hope she dies."
Hinata jumps in the fray, nearly dies and causes Naruto to turn almost 9-tails almost killing everyone and everything in the Hidden Leaf: "Oh she is so precious. Look how devoted she is. She is so brave to sacrifice everything."

Sakura fangirls over Sasuke: "Wow, I hate fangirls. They disgust me."
Hinata fangirls over Naruto: "Wow that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE. She is the best girlfriend ever,. Naruto is fool to pass that up. I'm crying."

This double standard just urks me to no end and it is b far worse than anything Kishi has down.

Someone seems just a bit tired (typos and missing words and etc.). No worries though, you got your point across. Great post yet again.

[Shadow Wolf]

I want to come back here and do a huge run down of Hinata's character or at least what I feel is a run down.

First of all, my huge problem is not with Hinata's character at all. I can understand her character completely. She is a slightly selfish fangirl who has grown in confidence, but not in skills. Before you say anything, keep reading because there is so much more to tell.

Let's break down Hinata for a moment.
Why is she selfish? (even in the slightest)
The answer is in the scenes that play out with her. In part 1, she was innocent, shy, and very fangirlish. While I understand this, I also understand that this has not help her in the slightest. As I have pointed out on many occasions in part 1 she has shown to never put her feeling aside to really help Naruto. Yeah, you can argue that she gave Naruto the ointment, but this was help that Naruto didn't really need. While a nice gesture it's not something to be remembered for. However, she wasn't there when Naruto was alone and depressed. Again, the argument is that she was shy, but this very thing is the reason why it is bad. This is why Naruto never noticed her.

You know who was there? Sakura. Oh sure, she didn't love him then, but that's the beauty part about development. She eventually began to love and respect him and it grew bigger all the way through the entire manga. This is important. Meanwhile while all this is going on, shy Hinata, who should be the one there, is sitting back and watching praying on a magic star that Naruto notices her. (Even when he does, she ends up fainting the entire time.)

Fast forward to Shippuden and we have several moments where Hinata is more outspoken, but she is still a fangirl and selfish. How is she selfish? Well, I'll go by the more major parts of the manga. We have the confession which is a huge marker for her. The first time she asserts herself. (Meanwhile, we have tons of scenes of Sakura being a heavy influence on Naruto, her feelings changing for him, and etc. We know this, we see this. No need to explain it.) In Hinata's confession, however, we have her jumping in, confessing, and then getting owned by Pein. What's wrong with this? Several. Was it selfish that she jumped into a fight she knew she couldn't win? No, but what does make this selfish is that she didn't even attempt to help Naruto at all. She could have removed the spikes, created a distraction, anything, but she didn't. This is what makes her selfish. (The fact that the anime had to add to the scene to draw it out more is proof of it) We also got chapter 573 which again shows her selfish thoughts of wanting to be with Naruto and holding his hand and such. Meanwhile, everyone else shows how they want to support Naruto and support the war. Sakura herself shows an even bigger story altogether and says that she will be with Naruto and face everything with him. Again, Sakura is about Naruto, Hinata is about her own fantasy. To me, this is selfish and no, I am not changing my opinion about this. She may do selfless acts, but she does it for selfish reasons.

615 comes and again, Hinata shows how selfish she really is and funny enough the scene didn't start out that way. It started out in a way that seemed like a real scene, but then we have Hinata ruin it by commenting on how "big and warm" Naruto's hand is. *facepalm* That whole scene ruined again.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.

Sakura has her moments of stupidity too and moments that many look down upon, but the biggest difference is she didn't do it for Naruto's attention or some fantasy. She did it because she didn't want Naruto to suffer anymore. It wasn't about her, it was about him and she was willing to give up everything for his happiness. That is true love right there.

However, I understand all this. This doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the fanbases themselves. The fact that Sakura gets just dumped on for all her mistakes, but Hinata gets forgiven for hers when even she admits she made mistakes. Hinata has made some pretty big mistakes that many have gotten her out of. Naruto saved her, Neji saved her, even Sakura saved her, but I am supposed to believe she is a strong woman? Okay, actual strength alone doesn't make a strong woman, but the fact that Hinata has focused more on her love for Naruto than actually developing her own skills really puts a damper on her character. She has not won one fight in this entire manga. Not one. What does that say? She couldn't even take out Zetsu clones.

Why is Sakura so heavily criticized, but when Hinata does it, it is okay?
Sakura jumps in front of danger to protect Naruto: "Look how stupid she is."
Hinata does it: "Oh, that is so cute. She loves him so much to die for him."

Sakura, who Kishi says was honest, comes up with a plan to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden: "Wow, what a liar and a B***ch. I hope she dies."
Hinata jumps in the fray, nearly dies and causes Naruto to turn almost 9-tails almost killing everyone and everything in the Hidden Leaf: "Oh she is so precious. Look how devoted she is. She is so brave to sacrifice everything."

Sakura fangirls over Sasuke: "Wow, I hate fangirls. They disgust me."
Hinata fangirls over Naruto: "Wow, that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE. She is the best girlfriend ever,. Naruto is fool to pass that up. I'm crying."

This double standard just urks me to no end and it is b far worse than anything Kishi has down.

Now you know why I say that many of my debating skills have been learned from you man. Two words: Nicely done!

[Phantom_999]

I want to come back here and do a huge run down of Hinata's character or at least what I feel is a run down.

First of all, my huge problem is not with Hinata's character at all. I can understand her character completely. She is a slightly selfish fangirl who has grown in confidence, but not in skills. Before you say anything, keep reading because there is so much more to tell.

Let's break down Hinata for a moment.
Why is she selfish? (even in the slightest)
The answer is in the scenes that play out with her. In part 1, she was innocent, shy, and very fangirlish. While I understand this, I also understand that this has not helped her in the slightest. As I have pointed out on many occasions in part 1 she has shown to never put her feelings aside to really help Naruto. Yeah, you can argue that she gave Naruto the ointment, but this was help that Naruto didn't really need. While a nice gesture it's not something to be remembered for. However, she wasn't there when Naruto was alone and depressed. Again, the argument is that she was shy, but this very thing is the reason why it is bad. This is why Naruto never noticed her.

You know who was there? Sakura. Oh sure, she didn't love him then, but that's the beauty part about development. She eventually began to love and respect him and it grew bigger all the way through the entire manga. This is important. Meanwhile while all this is going on, shy Hinata, who should be the one there, is sitting back and watching praying on a magic star that Naruto notices her. (Even when he does, she ends up fainting the entire time.)

Fast forward to Shippuden and we have several moments where Hinata is more outspoken, but she is still a fangirl and selfish. How is she selfish? Well, I'll go by the more major parts of the manga. We have the confession which is a huge marker for her. The first time she asserts herself. (Meanwhile, we have tons of scenes of Sakura being a heavy influence on Naruto, her feelings changing for him, and etc. We know this, we see this. No need to explain it.) In Hinata's confession, however, we have her jumping in, confessing, and then getting owned by Pein. What's wrong with this? Several. Was it selfish that she jumped into a fight she knew she couldn't win? No, but what does make this selfish is that she didn't even attempt to help Naruto at all. She could have removed the spikes, created a distraction, anything, but she didn't. This is what makes her selfish. (The fact that the anime had to add to the scene to draw it out more is proof of it) We also got chapter 573 which again shows her selfish thoughts of wanting to be with Naruto and holding his hand and such. Meanwhile, everyone else shows how they want to support Naruto and support the war. Sakura herself shows an even bigger story altogether and says that she will be with Naruto and face everything with him. Again, Sakura is about Naruto, Hinata is about her own fantasy. To me, this is selfish and no, I am not changing my opinion about this. She may do selfless acts, but she does it for selfish reasons.

615 comes and again, Hinata shows how selfish she really is and funny enough the scene didn't start out that way. It started out in a way that seemed like a real scene, but then we have Hinata ruin it by commenting on how "big and warm" Naruto's hand is. *facepalm* That whole scene ruined again.

Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.

Sakura has her moments of stupidity too and moments that many look down upon, but the biggest difference is she didn't do it for Naruto's attention or some fantasy. She did it because she didn't want Naruto to suffer anymore. It wasn't about her, it was about him and she was willing to give up everything for his happiness. That is true love right there.

However, I understand all this. This doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the fanbases themselves. The fact that Sakura gets just dumped on for all her mistakes, but Hinata gets forgiven for hers when even she admits she made mistakes. Hinata has made some pretty big mistakes that many have gotten her out of. Naruto saved her, Neji saved her, even Sakura saved her, but I am supposed to believe she is a strong woman? Okay, actual strength alone doesn't make a strong woman, but the fact that Hinata has focused more on her love for Naruto than actually developing her own skills really puts a damper on her character. She has not won one fight in this entire manga. Not one. What does that say? She couldn't even take out Zetsu clones.

Why is Sakura so heavily criticized, but when Hinata does it, it is okay?
Sakura jumps in front of danger to protect Naruto: "Look how stupid she is."
Hinata does it: "Oh, that is so cute. She loves him so much to die for him."

Sakura, who Kishi says was honest, comes up with a plan to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden: "Wow, what a liar and a B***ch. I hope she dies."
Hinata jumps in the fray, nearly dies and causes Naruto to turn almost 9-tails almost killing everyone and everything in the Hidden Leaf: "Oh she is so precious. Look how devoted she is. She is so brave to sacrifice everything."

Sakura fangirls over Sasuke: "Wow, I hate fangirls. They disgust me."
Hinata fangirls over Naruto: "Wow, that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE. She is the best girlfriend ever. Naruto is a fool to pass that up. I'm crying."

This double standard just urks me to no end and it is by far worse than anything Kishi has done.

EXACTLY. I asked this a few days ago. If fans found Sakura annoying about her Sasuke obsession, then why isn't the same being set for Hinata? She isn't necessarily doing anything but thinking of Naruto on panel. If she has done something other than that, the times you can probably count with one hand, as in five fingers or less.

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 April 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[Awes9]

EXACTLY. I asked this a few days ago. If fans found Sakura annoying about her Sasuke obsession, then why isn't the same being set for Hinata? She isn't necessarily doing anything but thinking of Naruto on panel. If she has done something other than that, the times you can probably count with one hand, as in five fingers or less.

Maybe that's because Naruto treats Hinata decently, can't say the same for Sasuke.

[James S Cassidy]

EXACTLY. I asked this a few days ago. If fans found Sakura annoying about her Sasuke obsession, then why isn't the same being set for Hinata? She isn't necessarily doing anything but thinking of Naruto on panel. If she has done something other than that, the times you can probably count with one hand, as in five fingers or less.

I can't think of one moment where she stood for anything other than Naruto. Not in the manga anyway.

Sakura's obsession for Sasuke weighed her down heavily. As soon as she dropped it, she grew exponentially. She became stronger willed and a much better fighter and a lot more cunning. Sakura would not have grown as much as she did if she kept her entire focus on getting his attention.

Hinata's obsession over Naruto is the same. (She is obsessed. I am tired of trying to sugar coat this; she is obsessed with him.) It weighs her down from pushing her character to better things. She needs to drop it. Naruto is not the only thing in her world. She can still love him, but she needs to not revolve around him focusing all her attention to being with him. It would improve her character ten fold and showed that even if she doesn't get Naruto, she can stand on her own for once.

One problem though: Naruto is too kind to tell her off. He is unwilling to tell her: "You need to stop chasing after me and work on making yourself better." Instead he pats her on the head and says "You're good as you are. No need to change. You are already strong." Honestly Naruto, I know you don't want to be mean, but sometimes you have to be in order to help someone grow. Disappointment and failure is what makes us seek greater things. You know this Naruto. How many times have you failed and have never given up while being told how weak you are?

Honestly, her love for Naruto is what is killing her. Sadly, I can't say this to anyone because I end up being told that just because I am an NS fan I am being biased against Hinata. Which is sad, I can't even give a honest answer without someone saying "You're just saying that cause you are biased."

Maybe that's because Naruto treats Hinata decently, can't say the same for Sasuke.

Too much coddling and the person never improves. When I was growing up, there was no trophies for last place.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 April 2013 - 02:34 AM.

[Awes9]

I can't think of one moment where she stood for anything other than Naruto. Not in the manga anyway.

Sakura's obsession for Sasuke weighed her down heavily. As soon as she dropped it, she grew exponentially. She became stronger willed and a much better fighter and a lot more cunning. Sakura would not have grown as much as she did if she kept her entire focus on getting his attention.

Hinata's obsession over Naruto is the same. (She is obsessed. I am tired of trying to sugar coat this; she is obsessed with him.) It weighs her down from pushing her character to better things. She needs to drop it. Naruto is not the only thing in her world. She can still love him, but she needs to not revolve around him focusing all her attention to being with him. It would improve her character ten fold and showed that even if she doesn't get Naruto, she can stand on her own for once.

One problem though: Naruto is too kind to tell her off. He is unwilling to tell her: "You need to stop chasing after me and work on making yourself better." Instead he pats her on the head and says "You're good as you are. No need to change. You are already strong." Honestly Naruto, I know you don't want to be mean, but sometimes you have to be in order to help someone grow. Disappointment and failure is what makes us seek greater things. You know this Naruto. How many times have you failed and have never given up while being told how weak you are?

Honestly, her love for Naruto is what is killing her. Sadly, I can't say this to anyone because I end up being told that just because I am an NS fan I am being biased against Hinata. Which is sad, I can't even give a honest answer without someone saying "You're just saying that cause you are biased."

I think the problem is that you guys are looking at it from your perspective not from Kishi's perspective ; when Kishi implies Naruto's obsession and quest "to save Sasuke" is endearing, just , selfless and the right thing to do then I have a hard time thinking Hinata's obsessional love for Naruto is supposed to be seen as a bad trait to her character.

[James S Cassidy]

I think the problem is that you guys are looking at it from your perspective not from Kishi's perspective ; when Kishi implies Naruto's obsession and quest "to save Sasuke" is endearing, just , selfless and the right thing to do then I have a hard time thinking Hinata's obsessional love for Naruto is supposed to be seen as a bad trait to her character.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think Naruto's obsession for Sasuke is killing him as well. That's the whole point. Become too obsessed and you end up unable to accept reality. Look at Obito. He was so obsessed with Rin that when she died, he couldn't accept reality. He broke. I mentioned this in my Walls of Naruto if you want to go read this. Itachi even comments on his obsession because he says "If you don't accept the outcomes, then you are no better than Obito himself." The Uchiha are huge in this area with obsession and being unable to accept truths.

Like I said, why is Sakura's obsession in part 1 about Sasuke a "bad trait," but you have a hard time seeing Hinata's obsession as a "bad trait?" I know why and it is a common problem among many situations.

The obsession can be used as a weakness such as when Kakashi manipulated Sakura with his injured Sasuke disguise. It prevents people from thinking tactically in a situation that requires it. Again, Hinata's confession: She didn't help at all and in fact made the situation worse. Without Minato's safety protocols, not only would Naruto die, but so would everyone else in the village...all because she wanted to confess her love. That's why it is a bad trait...especially for Hinata who has pushed her love above everything else.

"I think the problem is that you guys are looking at it from your perspective not from Kishi's perspective"

I could say the same thing when people pick on Sakura despite Kishi making her a much stronger person. How many times do people push Sakura's obsession with Sasuke to the front of the row when Sakura has not been obsessive at all since part 1? How many times do people call Sakura a liar when Kishi has said on several occasions she wasn't? How many times has been Sakura looked at in ways all because people want Hinata to be a better girl?

I am Naruto fan first. I am reading this manga as such. I am a NS fan, but first and for most I am a Naruto fan. I am a manga fan. I have seen what fandoms can do to a manga and have destroyed some of the best manga ever simply because they "demand" a certain outcome.

If I go by what Kishi has written so far...NS is canon. He has developed this pairing since part 1 and supported it throughout the entire manga. Hinata barely gets any moments at all and are so few and far between that she fades as quickly as she shows up. This is the main argument NS have. We don't like the pairing because it "looks cute." We like the pairing because we saw these characters grow up together on screen since the beginning.

If Kishi's intention this entire time was NH, then he did a horrible job at it. If his intention is NS, then you can see how this is the most logical giving the writing elements he has done. Some even consistent with other canon pairings in other manga. As a whole, this manga supports NS.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 April 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[Saku-chan]

How many times do people call Sakura a liar when Kishi has said on several occasions she wasn't?

Sorry to kind of derail, but holy cow did he say this in an interview? Was this about the "confession?"



I'll just be the devil's advocate here and say that I don't think Hinata was being 'selfish' other than confessing feelings in the middle of a battle. That can be hella distracting girl. I guess she had resolved to die and this kind of shows that she had the courage to confess before dying. (I think it's courage. Confessing is hard.) Jumping in to try and help was pretty selfless. Maybe she didn't think she'd have time to remove the spikes or whatever. Maybe she thought that if she became a distraction, Naruto could free himself.

I don't think her love for Naruto is a bad obsession. I don't think love is a bad obsession inherently. It's how you deal with it that counts. I don't think she's the type to reject reality if Naruto were with someone else/dead. She's had good teachers and friends who talk about loss and how to accept it. Obito had Madara. Madara was his only source of information on how to deal with loss. It's no wonder he turned out like he did. Loving someone a lot does not automatically mean that they will turn into a murdering psychopath.

Sakura's fangirling was a different type of obsession. Sasuke was the epitome of success and prestige for her when she was little, so she idolized him and sought him out. I think her feelings for him got muddled after chapter 3 (dammit Naruto and you confusing her with your Henge!) and she developed feelings for him.

Her feelings have matured more and she's probably confused about what Sasuke means to her exactly. She thinks of him as a teammate, someone she likes/liked, and most importantly someone who is precious to Naruto.

I know some of this is kind of off topic, but I wanted to sort of address this word obsession as people are using it here. Hinata's "obsession" =/= Obito's "obsession" =/= Sakura's "obsession"

There are different connotations for all three of these uses.

[James S Cassidy]

Sorry to kind of derail, but holy cow did he say this in an interview? Was this about the "confession?"

2009 interview:
"As for Sakura... Sasuke... what about Sasuke? Naruto is close and she worries about Naruto as well, but as expected, she for.. Sasuke.

Because of this, she acted quite haughty towards that guy. She used Naruto's love for her and told him she loved him. - this is a comment from the anime team pointed out a by a transtator.

Kishimoto:
On the contrary.... I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression.
So... she became such a character, but... well... from here on, maybe I should draw her showing a bit more spirit.
I figured I had placed her in a heroin-like situation
But from the readers I was told harshly that she wasn't heroin-ish at all
Perhaps I should show depict her a bit more like a heroin
Because you say 'Hinata Hinata,' I say 'She's not Hinata'

I'll just be the devil's advocate here and say that I don't think Hinata was being 'selfish' other than confessing feelings in the middle of a battle. That can be hella distracting girl. I guess she had resolved to die and this kind of shows that she had the courage to confess before dying. (I think it's courage. Confessing is hard.) Jumping in to try and help was pretty selfless. Maybe she didn't think she'd have time to remove the spikes or whatever. Maybe she thought that if she became a distraction, Naruto could free himself.

I don't think her love for Naruto is a bad obsession. I don't think love is a bad obsession inherently. It's how you deal with it that counts. I don't think she's the type to reject reality if Naruto were with someone else/dead. She's had good teachers and friends who talk about loss and how to accept it. Obito had Madara. Madara was his only source of information on how to deal with loss. It's no wonder he turned out like he did. Loving someone a lot does not automatically mean that they will turn into a murdering psychopath.

Sakura's fangirling was a different type of obsession. Sasuke was the epitome of success and prestige for her when she was little, so she idolized him and sought him out. I think her feelings for him got muddled after chapter 3 (dammit Naruto and you confusing her with your Henge!) and she developed feelings for him.

Her feelings have matured more and she's probably confused about what Sasuke means to her exactly. She thinks of him as a teammate, someone she likes/liked, and most importantly someone who is precious to Naruto.

I disagree completely. Sorry, but I already said my peace on this. So agree to disagree. I see Hinata as selfish and find her obsession a huge deterrent to her development. Just as Sakura's obsession was her deterrent and, if Itachi's theory is right, Naruto's obsession might be his deterrent.

Selfless acts with Selfish intention.

I know some of this is kind of off topic, but I wanted to sort of address this word obsession as people are using it here. Hinata's "obsession" =/= Obito's "obsession" =/= Sakura's "obsession"

There are different connotations for all three of these uses.

Different in some parts and yet alike in others. Obsession is obsession. It can be in matters of love or object terms, but they all deter people from accepting a truth. Positive or negative, but in this case I find obsession to be negative and even in the manga it is shown to be a negative trait. Similar like how in Star Wars where Anakin was so obsessed with Padame dying he lost everything else including himself.

Obito loved Rin. When she died, he became so obsessed about her that he became evil (and I use this term lightly) and focused just on getting her back no matter what the cost.

Sakura's Obsession with Sasuke has gotten her into trouble and Kakashi has shown this where people can manipulate it.

Hinata's obsession has also gotten her into trouble and while, yes not all her moments has put Naruto in harm's way, it has done something to her. She neglected herself. As I said, this has caused her character to remain stagnant and feel like a broken record. Neji died? Who cares? She got to hold Naruto's hand. This is what makes me frown at her. This is all because she cared too much about holding Naruto's hand. This should have been the last thing in her mind and while it didn't make the situation worse, it made her character look worse. (BTW, just to show, if Sakura did that how many would be saying just as I am now? In fact, they did when Sakura thought about Sasuke during the Lover-nin scene.)

Obsession can be good if it provides a means to improve. Naruto was obsessed with being Hokage and thus it made him not give up. However, if his obsession with Sasuke overtakes him and he can't see anything or anyone else...then he loses himself. That's bad.

This is the point I am trying to make. I judge Sakura the same way. I judge Naruto the same way. I judge Hinata the same way. It is as fair as I can make it.

The Fountain movie has Hugh Jackman's character care more about finding a cure then spending time with his love. When she died, he regretting not spending time with her. That's what happens when you let obsession take control. You forget everything else that matters in the world.

Naruto....he might be so obsessed with Sasuke that he forgets to see Sakura and neglects her.
Hinata...might get so obsessive with Naruto that she forgets that she has to be the next in line to lead her clan.

It's not certain, but this is what could happen.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 April 2013 - 03:57 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Maybe that's because Naruto treats Hinata decently, can't say the same for Sasuke.

Treats her Decently? Hmm. Well can't argue with that, but that means they have a problem with Sasuke then not Sakura, yet they still bash her. Would they still toot heir horns if Sakura had liked someone else that wasn't so angsty? And Naruto treats Hinata no differently than how he treats his other friends, so it is not that much of a justification.