169 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

The only people Obito targeted were the Mist nin that were obviously what led to Kakashi killing Rin. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Obito saw what we saw -> Kakashi crying, and put that together with "Mist experiments" and the nins comments to not let the enemy get her body, and realized what we did - that Kakashi was forced to kill Rin. Hence why Obito doesn't blame him, but no longer cares if he lives or dies either.

I vehemently disagree with all of this, especially the bolded.

Naruto has suffered loss, and he most certainly has been tested. It wasn't "childhood taunting", it was being completely surrounded by hatred growing up. You don't need to suffer physical abuse for that to be enormously traumatic. By all accounts, Naruto didn't experience any actual semblance of affection until Team 7 - that's 12 years feeling not only as though no one gives a damn about you, but actively would prefer if you didn't exist at all. Naruto readily admitted in his thoughts that if it weren't for Team 7 and Iruka, he would have ended up just like Gaara - someone unstable and murderous - he talked about how he loathed everyone when he was younger.

Naruto was betrayed by the person that he considered a brother and looked up to - Sasuke was to Naruto what Itachi was to Sasuke - at least Itachi didn't try to actually kill him like Sasuke did Naruto, stabbing a chidori through his chest while grinning manically about it and taunting him.

Then of course there was finding a dead Gaara (and regardless of whether Gaara was revived, he still knows what that loss feels like - it didn't make the experience any lesser for it).

After that was Jiraiya's death, which even though he didn't witness firsthand, truly hurt him. He wanted revenge, and he was most certainly tested by Pein's questions to him, and then when he faced down Nagato. And Naruto chose to not go after revenge. He had no clue that Pein would revive all the villagers when he made his decision, so you can't say his decision was made any easier for it.

He also saw Hinata "die" right in front of him, and just like with Gaara, finding out afterwards that she actually survived didn't make his pain at the time of the experience any lesser, or the guilt he felt over not being able to save her.

Then he was tested further when they learned that Sasuke was part of Akatsuki and that other villagers were after him now, as well as the rookies. Literally everyone was telling Naruto that Sasuke needed to die, that he could no longer be saved - and we saw clearly how conflicted Naruto was. And he came to an answer at the summit, one that he received flak for from the rookies upon returning home.

So to say that Naruto hasn't suffered any consequential loss or experienced any comparable pain as the others you listed is completely untrue, as is your claim that Naruto has never really been tested.

Sorry, but none of the things you've listed compares to...
- Nagato witnessing his parent's death, then being the force that "kills" Yahiko.
- Sasuke coming upon his parent's murder scene just moments after their death, as well as the massacre of the rest of their clan.
- Obito witnessing his best friend plunge his fist into his love's heart.
- Gaara being the subject of assasination attempts by his own father.

Naruto has gone through trials and tribulations, but he has not experience death. Gruesome, heart-wrenching death. And I've not even touched on the f'd up psychological situations that surrounded their ordeals, like being targeted or being spared or having to live through the corpse of your best friend.

You could stretch and say Hinata wass the exception — that yes, Naruto did see her "die" and that sent him over the edge — but she was hit in the midst of battle. She was fighting back. The deaths that have motivated these villains have all been on victims, on someone who couldn't fight back, for whatever reason.

The more intense these storylines become, the bigger the disparity between Naruto and the villains he is supposed to face.

edit: And I'm sorry but the it's too much of a contradiction to accept that he heard the Mist nin explanation, FLIPS OUT and kills them all in the most horrific manner shown so far in the manga, then switches it all off when it comes to Kakashi who actually killed her.

Again, it would have been easier to accept of Obito had been catatonic and unable to respond. But he wasn't. He responded with appropriate rage but then he has a hiccup and says he no longer cares about Kakashi, then he flips back and proceeds to move on with some plan for world domination. It is a completely contradictory set of reactions.

[Nefertieh]

I'm guessing Tsunade's possible death may have an effect on Naruto, but having said that, I doubt we'll see more deaths that will affect him. Jiraiya served that purpose already, it was a long arc, and he told Sakura that now he understands Sasuke after losing Jiraiya.

Remember, unlike the 'villains' of the story, Naruto's role is to look past all of that. Right now, it seems like Obito is Kakashi's problem.

I understand that Madara came out of A coffin, not THE coffin.

Edited by Nefertieh, 18 October 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[tricksie]

I'm almost starting to get the feeling that the only way Naruto is going to be able to find any semblance of balance to where people might understand each other, is to deconstruct the entire culture of the ninja world. And by that I mean, try to end the society of requiring ninjas. It seems to me so many of these villains have tragic back stories from their youths. These tragedies stem from the society that has children, as we know as young as 12, fight and die as soldiers. Maybe for peace to really happen, Naruto has to find away to take the world in a different direction, because from what I've seen over the course of this manga, the very culture of the ninja world is a never ending cycle. The way the ninja world works, who's to say that another one like Obito isnt' going to come around again?

I have thought about this too after this chapter. I used to think it was just the cycle of violence, cycle of hatred.... But now I think it's more of a cycle of manipulation. Obito will go on from here to manipulate others to bend to his will, when ultimately he is being manipulated by Madara for his unknown goal. All of the villains have been used as pawns by the so-called "previous generation." And I agree, somehow Naruto's going to have to stop it all, otherwise there will just be more Obitos to be used by more Madaras in the future.

[Phantom_999]

I get this FOREBODING feeling we're getting a Sasuke Fest next. Now I Admit Sasuke is still one of my Favorite characters (feel free to disagree about liking him) but whatever PLOT HOLES are revealed with him are irrelevant and redundant to say the least, so if the story is switching to him I will be disappointed, to tell the truth.

Very good chapter, although I was hoping for more motivation for Obito to do what he does than just Rin's death... it's forgivable, though, because Kishi handled it well enough for us to buy it.

I don't see this flashback or the ones of Kabuto as trying to get us to feel sorry for the characters. Hell nah. I see them as just explanation as to why they do what they do. Forget feeling sorry for them, these are all about understanding. We may not agree with them, we may not even feel sorry for them, but we understand why they're doing what they do.

THAT is what makes a good and complex character. Not just having one generally well known side to their character and just sticking to it, which is boring but showing that they have both positive and negative traits to them. Oh, while we're on the subject I read what you said about Danzo and this statement applies to him for me. I don't like him any more that I ever did with the reveal of his back story, But I sympathize with his views more and see him as a more interesting character. So I never liked Danzo but I can understand and see his view on things more clearly.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 October 2012 - 02:57 AM.

[Nefertieh]

edit: And I'm sorry but the it's too much of a contradiction to accept that he heard the Mist nin explanation, FLIPS OUT and kills them all in the most horrific manner shown so far in the manga, then switches it all off when it comes to Kakashi who actually killed her.

Again, it would have been easier to accept of Obito had been catatonic and unable to respond. But he wasn't. He responded with appropriate rage but then he has a hiccup and says he no longer cares about Kakashi, then he flips back and proceeds to move on with some plan for world domination. It is a completely contradictory set of reactions.

Well the most obvious answer would be that Kishimoto didn't plan for Rin to be killed by Kakashi's hand in the start - otherwise Kakashi's famous "I won't let my comrades die" wouldn't be so hypocritical. Either way, killing him would cause a time paradox.

Maybe Obito spared him because he knew Rin loved Kakashi, or he himself still considered Kakashi a friend. Remember, Madara's paradise didn't just have Rin, but Kakashi too.

[tricksie]

Well the most obvious answer would be that Kishimoto didn't plan for Rin to be killed by Kakashi's hand in the start - otherwise Kakashi's famous "I won't let my comrades die" wouldn't be so hypocritical. Either way, killing him would cause a time paradox.

Maybe Obito spared him because he knew Rin loved Kakashi, or he himself still considered Kakashi a friend. Remember, Madara's paradise didn't just have Rin, but Kakashi too.

Oh! You're so right. I completely forgot about that line.

And about Obito's sparing of Kakashi, I kind of think it's another attempt on Kishimoto's part to make Obito a little more redeemable in the long run. After all, would we be feeling charitable toward Kakashi if Obito did make an attempt on his life, but failed? Or if he planned on his moon-dream-land, but Kakashi would be fated to be tortured as in Itachi's genjutsu...cause Obito, being an Uchiha, could do both. A kind genjutsu or a torturing one. If Obito had planned a terrible fate for Kakashi, then we certainly wouldn't be feeling sympathy for him.

[Codus N]

As for the bolded, it's interesting you'd choose that language because it's exactly what I was thinking when I read the chapter and then some of the comments here. The idea that there's anything sympathetic or benign about the desire to strip individuals of their freedom and replace it with control by some entity -- whether it be The Government or a benevolent overlord -- is repellant to me.

I agree completely that Obito's motivation is basically tyranny. It appears that to his thinking, his means -- to force a false existence on others -- justifies his end, which is to be with Rin. He doesn't care about the needs or feelings that anyone else might have or choose -- including Rin, apparently. I mean, is Obito really so desperate that he would take Rin any way he could get her, even if he has to construct a fantasy world where he can control her feelings as well as her existence? If that's the case, just... ick. Ick.

Perhaps he simply wants to construct a world in which she still lives. That would be a lot less creepy but no less misguided, and the methods he has used to pursue that goal would surely sicken Rin if she knew.


I agree that it must have been Obito's feelings that awakened the Mangekyo. To my mind, it would make no sense if Kakashi could influence the bloodline limit in that way. He can use the Sharingan, and control it to the extent his own chakra allows, but influencing its core functionality seems like a stretch. Just my opinion.

I think the fact that Kakashi was crying when he killed Rin was meant to show his personal feelings, whatever they may be, and meant to prove that he was deeply affected by what was happening. Limiting his reaction to tears, while Obito's reaction upgraded the Sharingan, would make more sense.



I think it's far more realistic (and likely) to assume Kakashi collapsed from exhaustion, not PTSD. The P in PTSD stands for post, right? Meaning the stress shows up later -- post-trauma, not in the middle of it. While trauma could possibly explain Kakashi's collapse, I disagree that it could be considered PTSD on the spot.

Exhaustion just makes more sense. We don't know how long he had been fighting by the time Obito arrived on the scene, and then the Sharingan went MS and may have quickly drained whatever energy he had left. Exhaustion is something we know Kakashi has consistently suffered from when using the Sharingan, so that would be consistent.

And as a side note (this isn't directed at you, Codus, but in general)... I don't see how on one hand Kakashi can be considered a cold, unfeeling, rule-bound SOB who was willing to abandon Rin, and then on the other hand could be thought of as being so traumatized by his own actions and Rin's death that he would suffer complete amnesia or forget he's capable of MS. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

If anything, for me this chapter separated the men from the boys, so to speak. Kakashi comes off as a lot stronger, centered, and aware of the requirements and responsibilities of a shinobi than Obito at the same age. Kakashi took the lumps from his difficult childhood and struggled to overcome them. He may have over-corrected in his zeal not to repeat his father's mistakes, but when he saw the error of being an over-correcting hard ass he worked at fixing that flaw as well.

Obito's response to his emotional lumps was to crumble in despair, and then indulge in a fantasy born from Madara's manipulation and his own psychotic break. I'll take Kakashi's flawed humanity over self-involved, whimpering Uchiha drama any day. But that's just me.

Yeah, quite honestly, I actually have mixed feelings on this chapter. Obito's motivation was extremely weak IMO, much like Sasuke's reasoning for destroying Konoha. But on the other hand, what made it work enough for me is how Kishi conveyed Obito's deep love for Rin, so I can't help but sympathize with him. I wouldn't agree with his methods, but I at least understand why he wanted to do this. I can at least understand how Obito's love corrupted him.

Another reason why I sympathize with him is the fact no one was able to give him another alternative, like Naruto did with Sasuke numerous times. what Obito truly needs is someone to give him another chance to make things right. And I'm hoping that someone will be Kakashi this time, not Naruto. Granted, Naruto is his parallel, but as the story seems to be focusing on Kakashi now, I want him to take Naruto's usual role. As I've explained before, I'll be satisfied if Obito is willing to reconsider others' opinions (specifically Kakashi and Naruto's). But I expect him to say something along the lines of him unable to back out from all this now that he's gotten this far.

As for Kakashi's MS, I do think it is possible that it was all Kakashi in awakening it. And also, on the matter of the reason Kakashi forgot MS, it could still be a mix of both, really. Maybe this will be explained when we see Kakashi's POV later.

On the bolded, would you mind explaining??

Lastly, I really would love it if someone revived Rin, I'd love to see what her reaction would be like. It'd make for the most heart-wrenching moment in Naruto history when she sees how much he's fallen.

It would be interesting to see how Naruto would react to Sakura's "death" in a genjutsu. Obito is one of the parallels to Naruto and he would likely surpass him by not going on a massive killing spree like he did and come out stronger. He'd gain some sort of understanding of what Obito went through and not be nearly as judgemental. I'm not sure though if Kishi would go through with it, to be honest.

I sympathize with Obito but I also don't somehow at the same time. On the one hand, nothing meant more to him than his teammates. So seeing his team fall apart before his very eyes when he saw Kakashi killing Rin, the girl Obito loved and wanted to protect. He was still a young kid then, don't forget. He couldn't face reality and he remained suspended in the fragile denial of his childhood self. Very much like Sasuke, he never truly grew up because the horrifying and traumitizing events that plagued him, causing him to be unable to move forward in life past that precious moment of Rin's demise (And, in Sasuke's case, the murder of his Clan at age 8). Apparently, Uchihas have this in common. On top of that, he was alone for so long and the only thing he had left was his teamates; that dream of being reunited was broken and discarded, thanks to Kakashi (who he now no longer cares about, love or hate) and Rin's death. But still, while it is selfish to play God and just assume everyone else wants what you want, in a odd, twisted way ... Obito's desire is no different than Naruto's: to have his teammates together again and bring happiness and harmony to the world (through very morally wrong means of course).

On the other hand, none of this excuses all the terrible murders and genocides he was part of and remain completely unforgivable, no matter how likable a character he once was or the circumstances surrounding his fall. He deserves to die. We aren't supposed to totally forgive him and just sympathize. Understand his reasons yes but not ignore them like they never happened with excuses. He's wrong, misguided, and deciding such massive life decisions for everyone is selfish and arrogant. However, I still do see Sasuke as less sympathic than Obito.

You summed up my feelings about this chapter perfectly. Thank you .

[Paptala]

Sorry, but none of the things you've listed compares to...
- Nagato witnessing his parent's death, then being the force that "kills" Yahiko.
- Sasuke coming upon his parent's murder scene just moments after their death, as well as the massacre of the rest of their clan.
- Obito witnessing his best friend plunge his fist into his love's heart.
- Gaara being the subject of assasination attempts by his own father.

Naruto has gone through trials and tribulations, but he has not experience death. Gruesome, heart-wrenching death. And I've not even touched on the f'd up psychological situations that surrounded their ordeals, like being targeted or being spared or having to live through the corpse of your best friend.

No, Naruto's pains aren't directly comparable, but I don't believe that the gap is nearly as big as you are making it out to be.

Naruto was the target of one the four people he considered closest to him, one of only two (perhaps 3 if you include Jiraiya) that he considered family. So just as Gaara was targeted by his father, Naruto has been the target of multiple murder attempts by Sasuke, his brother. Gaara himself said that Naruto experienced the same pain as him, and I don't think that he would be flippant with that claim.

Sasuke was surrounded by people who loved him both before and after the event - the event was horribly traumatic, but I do believe that Naruto's decade plus of living with nothing but hate on all sides is just as horrible. Obito too had people who loved him at least before the traumatic event of seeing Rin killed by Kakashi. Just as Obito did, Naruto likewise said that he was in hell (during the fight against Gaara remembering what it was like when he was all alone).

Those two have all the trauma focused on one event, whereas Naruto's was drawn out over a period of years, thus being less focused but no less emotionally damaging. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't have come out as recently as when Naruto was facing down Dark Naruto at the waterfall of truth. ("It's stupid! You're a fool for letting them fuss over you! Those guys lied to us all this time! They made up rules to exclude us, remember?! We suffered...it hurt! I'm the only one that understands you! Don't believe them!") and then after Naruto's response, Dark Naruto is on his knees ("Why...after all we suffered...").

I'll concede however that Nagato's pain is not really comparable to any of Naruto's experiences thus far; you'd be right on that account that Naruto was not tested in the same manner/extent that Nagato was (though there is somewhat of a mitigating factor in that he was almost at all times surrounded by people who loved him, whether it was his family or Yahiko and Konan).

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Naruto's experiences are exactly the same; I am simply arguing that he has experienced pain and been tested more than what I felt you were saying he did.

You could stretch and say Hinata wass the exception — that yes, Naruto did see her "die" and that sent him over the edge — but she was hit in the midst of battle. She was fighting back. The deaths that have motivated these villains have all been on victims, on someone who couldn't fight back, for whatever reason.

That wasn't a fight, it was a slaughter. Everyone knew Hinata didn't stand a chance against Pein (both hers and Naruto's words), and she was one-shotted in front of him trying to protect him.

Though I'll concede the emotional value is lessened as he is not nearly as close to her as any of the four was to the people they witnessed being murdered.

The more intense these storylines become, the bigger the disparity between Naruto and the villains he is supposed to face.

I don't really agree, as I think Naruto can compare to Obito's pain much more than he can to Nagato's. But we may simply have to agree to disagree here.

edit: And I'm sorry but the it's too much of a contradiction to accept that he heard the Mist nin explanation, FLIPS OUT and kills them all in the most horrific manner shown so far in the manga, then switches it all off when it comes to Kakashi who actually killed her.

Again, it would have been easier to accept of Obito had been catatonic and unable to respond. But he wasn't. He responded with appropriate rage but then he has a hiccup and says he no longer cares about Kakashi, then he flips back and proceeds to move on with some plan for world domination. It is a completely contradictory set of reactions.

Fair enough.

Edited by Paptala, 18 October 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Nefertieh]

Yeah, quite honestly, I actually have mixed feelings on this chapter. Obito's motivation was extremely weak IMO, much like Sasuke's reasoning for destroying Konoha. But on the other hand, what made it work enough for me is how Kishi conveyed Obito's deep love for Rin, so I can't help but sympathize with him. I wouldn't agree with his methods, but I at least understand why he wanted to do this. I can at least understand how Obito's love corrupted him.

Tragedy really romanticises a character, which is why the fandom is so forgiving to characters like Itachi, as opposed to Sakura.

Lastly, I really would love it if someone revived Rin, I'd love to see what her reaction would be like. It'd make for the most heart-wrenching moment in Naruto history when she sees how much he's fallen.

Yeah, I think only Rin can give Obito closure, like every other character who's been revived. We already know Obito probably learned Edo Tensei from Kabuto, and I doubt he'd cremate her body.

[KnS]

In addition, he does not look deep into it nor even question why Madara wants it himself. Madara's argument is incredibly weak. So weak, that I wonder whether it's even worthy of the term argument. He just accepts it as true. People call it manipulation, and it is to a degree. But really, Madara didn't really have to do much. He just gave a concrete plan to a guy looking for an escape.

I know what you mean. I was basically gobsmacked by Obito's immediate embrace of Madara's plan. I was talking to the panels as I read them, wondering why Obito never stops to ask any questions or analyze the potential consequences of his actions. I suppose that's in character, though, considering what we saw of him in the Gaiden and in the more recent flashback.

And I've called it manipulation but I agree it's not intense or artful; it's similar to convincing a child to have ice cream for dinner. It's only manipulation, theoretically, because Madara may be planning something else entirely and if Obito understood the real intentions he might not agree.

On the bolded, would you mind explaining??

Oh, it was more of the usual -- me going on about anti-Kakashi sentiment. First he gets downplayed for being a cold-hearted robot kid who was so intent on his nindo that he was willing to abandon Rin. But then theories start that he was so overcome by trauma that he fainted on the job and later suffered from selective amnesia for years? I mean, let's pick one -- either he's an unemotional robot or he's an emotional wreck/fainter. I don't see how he can be both.

It just seems that no matter what Kakashi does he's judged negatively, at least in terms of this story arc. Meanwhile, Obito -- whose pathology is truly weak and pathetic -- gets a pass because he's perceived as "sympathetic." I don't get the reasoning, that's all.

[Paptala]

Oh, it was more of the usual -- me going on about anti-Kakashi sentiment. First he gets downplayed for being a cold-hearted robot kid who was so intent on his nindo that he was willing to abandon Rin. But then theories start that he was so overcome by trauma that he fainted on the job and later suffered from selective amnesia for years? I mean, let's pick one -- either he's an unemotional robot or he's an emotional wreck/fainter. I don't see how he can be both.

It just seems that no matter what Kakashi does he's judged negatively, at least in terms of this story arc. Meanwhile, Obito -- whose pathology is truly weak and pathetic -- gets a pass because he's perceived as "sympathetic." I don't get the reasoning, that's all.

I don't get the Kakashi hate either - Kakashi was basically forced to kill Rin (or at least that's strongly implied what happened given his tears), and yet he receives no sympathy?

Personally, I think Kakashi has proven to be one of the emotionally strongest characters in the show. He's gone through the death of his father, the stigma associated with that, the death of Obito coupled with the failure of being unable to save him, being forced to/accidentally killing Rin, loosing Minato, failing to get there in time to prevent Sasuke from leaving, and then loosing Asuma (who was at the very least a friend of Kakashi's). And despite all of this, he remains steady and composed, and lives his life as best he is able, learning from his losses.

[Codus N]

I know what you mean. I was basically gobsmacked by Obito's immediate embrace of Madara's plan. I was talking to the panels as I read them, wondering why Obito never stops to ask any questions or analyze the potential consequences of his actions. I suppose that's in character, though, considering what we saw of him in the Gaiden and in the more recent flashback.

And I've called it manipulation but I agree it's not intense or artful; it's similar to convincing a child to have ice cream for dinner. It's only manipulation, theoretically, because Madara may be planning something else entirely and if Obito understood the real intentions he might not agree.


Oh, it was more of the usual -- me going on about anti-Kakashi sentiment. First he gets downplayed for being a cold-hearted robot kid who was so intent on his nindo that he was willing to abandon Rin. But then theories start that he was so overcome by trauma that he fainted on the job and later suffered from selective amnesia for years? I mean, let's pick one -- either he's an unemotional robot or he's an emotional wreck/fainter. I don't see how he can be both.

It just seems that no matter what Kakashi does he's judged negatively, at least in terms of this story arc. Meanwhile, Obito -- whose pathology is truly weak and pathetic -- gets a pass because he's perceived as "sympathetic." I don't get the reasoning, that's all.

So basically, you were miffed at people theorizing Kakashi was simply being a kitten when he killed Rin and then people say he's had selective amnesia for years?? I get the feeling that was really directed at me . Mind you, I never said Kakashi was being a bastard and then I suddenly flipped over to him being amnesiac. That did not happen with me. I stuck to the latter of the theories from the beginning. I never switched sides. Of course, i'm still confused at what you're trying to say, anyways.

I agree that the manipulation was too quick. It felt so rushed. Even Sasuke had better progression with his manipulation.

[merryGOflava]

Sorry, but none of the things you've listed compares to...
- Nagato witnessing his parent's death, then being the force that "kills" Yahiko.
- Sasuke coming upon his parent's murder scene just moments after their death, as well as the massacre of the rest of their clan.
- Obito witnessing his best friend plunge his fist into his love's heart.
- Gaara being the subject of assasination attempts by his own father.

Naruto has gone through trials and tribulations, but he has not experience death. Gruesome, heart-wrenching death. And I've not even touched on the f'd up psychological situations that surrounded their ordeals, like being targeted or being spared or having to live through the corpse of your best friend.

what is this the battle of who has the saddest past!? XD (i never got why having a sad past mattered)

naruto had a sad childhood, does it have to be like nagato's or sasuke's? NO!! XD

its naruto's world and when your world crumbles no matter how big someone elses problems is yours seem bigger to you.

same with obito :3

all it too was rin, some can say thats a bad reason but rin was obito's personal world and when it crumbled so did he.

so naruto doesnt need to experience a death all up in his face >:U he has had it bad enough.

jiraiya's death for him was bad enough
his absent parents were bad enough.

sure its not dramatic cause he didnt witness it, but it still affected him in his own way.

so naruto can still relate to his villains :3 i think XD

[KnS]

So basically, you were miffed at people theorizing Kakashi was simply being a d*ck when he killed Rin and then people say he's had selective amnesia for years?? I get the feeling that was really directed at me . Mind you, I never said Kakashi was being a bastard and then I suddenly flipped over to him being amnesiac. That did not happen with me. I stuck to the latter of the theories from the beginning. I never switched sides. Of course, i'm still confused at what you're trying to say, anyways.

I know you didn't, that's why I said it wasn't directed at you.

Honestly, it was meant to be a very general comment about the tendency of some to judge Kakashi harshly for whatever he does regardless of his personal demons, the bravery required, the correctness of his motives, or the personal cost to him. But Obito stages a horrendous assault on the world's freedom, murders indiscriminately at will, and gets buckets of tears and excuses.

I don't understand it, that's all I'm saying. I accept people choose Obito's suffering over Kakashi's because I am able to comprehend that people identify with different things for different reasons, but all the Obito love and sympathy doesn't compute in my brain. Not after this chapter.

[Dragunov]

Well, it looks like we have a lot of our plate with this chapter.

The fact of the matter is, Obito decided to take over the world and instill an illusion over it in order to recover the woman he loved. In my opinion, Obito's love for Rin is more of a craze. And besides that, why not just revive her? He seems happy enough with living with a false Rin in a false universe. As to Kakashi, all of his life has been a sort of emotional wreck. From the death of his father to the failure to save his friends, he's been on the edge for most of his years.

[Nefertieh]

I know you didn't, that's why I said it wasn't directed at you.

Honestly, it was meant to be a very general comment about the tendency of some to judge Kakashi harshly for whatever he does regardless of his personal demons, the bravery required, the correctness of his motives, or the personal cost to him. But Obito stages a horrendous assault on the world's freedom, murders indiscriminately at will, and gets buckets of tears and excuses.

I don't understand it, that's all I'm saying. I accept people choose Obito's suffering over Kakashi's because I am able to comprehend that people identify with different things for different reasons, but all the Obito love and sympathy doesn't compute in my brain. Not after this chapter.

I'm sure people will be more sympathetic to Kakashi if he had a good reason to kill Rin. Right now, nobody knows why he did it, but it seems like not killing your comrades is the first rule on the book.

[KnS]

I'm sure people will be more sympathetic to Kakashi if he had a good reason to kill Rin. Right now, nobody knows why he did it, but it seems like not killing your comrades is the first rule on the book.

Your choice of words reflects, perhaps unintentionally, the kind of bias I was talking about. What you're effectively saying is that Kakashi will gain/be worthy of sympathy IF it turns out he had a good reason to kill Rin. IF. The implication being that there is an actual, serious concern that he killed her for a cold and uncaring reason? A selfish reason? No reason? Really?

Kakashi has been an unqualified force of good throughout the story but his character, integrity, and ethics are now in question and he has to re-prove himself a decent man. The implication is, apparently, that Kakashi is guilty of something -- doesn't matter what -- until he's proven innocent.

Meanwhile we already know Obito is guilty of killing countless people and planning even worse -- all for a selfish, senseless reason that far exceeds any unproven negative motive Kakashi might have had for killing Rin -- yet he's seen as a victim and enjoys people's tears and sympathy.

Okay. I don't get it at all, but that's okay.

[TerrorKing]

I think the sympathy towards Obtio mostly stems from watching such a good person fall so far into darkness. That and the fact that he is obviously a Naruto parallel, so people see his situation as a "what if?" scenario, i.e. what would have happened had Naruto gone down the path of darkness.

At least that's how I feel. I don't really sympathize with as much as I understand him. There is a difference between understanding someone and feeling sympathy for them. I understand why Obtio did what he did, but I don't really feel any sympathy for him.

Then again, I can understand why he's doing what he's doing. As others have already mentioned, Obito's overall goal is a lot more sympathetic and noble than some of the other villains in the series. You could argue that all the blood on his hands diminish this sympathy, but since his overall goal is to basically create an artificial reality, this could be seen as evidence that to him reality simply doesn't matter anymore and really, why should it? "What does it matter if somone loses his life in the real world. In my new perfect world, not only will he be alive again, but he will be able to lead a perfect life".

So yeah, this is also where my sympathy with Obito ends. I can see where he's coming from and like I mentioned earlier, his goal is at least a little more sympathetic than the other villains, but not by much. He's more sympathetic than Sasuke, IMO.

I don't think Obito will live. He might be redeemed in the end, but I predict that he will basically pull a Darth Vader. Realize the error of his ways and then die in order to help Naruto and the alliance in some way.

[Nefertieh]

Your choice of words reflects, perhaps unintentionally, the kind of bias I was talking about. What you're effectively saying is that Kakashi will gain/be worthy of sympathy IF it turns out he had a good reason to kill Rin. IF. The implication being that there is an actual, serious concern that he killed her for a cold and uncaring reason? A selfish reason? No reason? Really?

Kakashi has been an unqualified force of good throughout the story but his character, integrity, and ethics are now in question and he has to re-prove himself a decent man. The implication is, apparently, that Kakashi is guilty of something -- doesn't matter what -- until he's proven innocent.

Meanwhile we already know Obito is guilty of killing countless people and planning even worse -- all for a selfish, senseless reason that far exceeds any unproven negative motive Kakashi might have had for killing Rin -- yet he's seen as a victim and enjoys people's tears and sympathy.

Okay. I don't get it at all, but that's okay.

Hey, I personally don't think Kakashi wouldn't be remorseful for his actions, he's just stuck in the unfortunate plot hole that Kishimoto has dropped him in - being the one who killed Rin. Now he's going to have amnesia to cover his lack of remorse and hypocritical nindo.

If it turns out he had killed Rin, the whole fandom will forgive him. If it wasn't the case, say his hand slipped, then people will obviously be disappointed. Killing defenseless little girls is unsurprisingly bad for your reputation.

Will it mean his character will be hurt in the long run? Extremely unlikely. Kakashi is a very popular character. Because of his mistakes, Obito 'dies' in the Gaiden, but people still sympathised with Kakashi. It's similar to Sasuke -- even though he's genocidal and insane with a matching maniac laughter, he's still the second most popular character on the series.

If anything this arc has done, it has shown how Kakashi is a more complex character than what we thought, and the same goes for Obito. I don't hate either of them, although it is a bit unfortunate that Rin was used as a "woman locked in the fridge" TVtrope.

You could argue that all the blood on his hands diminish this sympathy, but since his overall goal is to basically create an artificial reality, this could be seen as evidence that to him reality simply doesn't matter anymore and really, why should it? "What does it matter if somone loses his life in the real world. In my new perfect world, not only will he be alive again, but he will be able to lead a perfect life".

This.

Edited by Nefertieh, 18 October 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Your missing the point: If Obito is going to destroy the world as they know it because of her death, then why doesn't he start with the one who caused it? If Obito was so traumatized by Rin's death that he could no longer deal with look at Kakashi with any emotion at all, if he was so catatonic, then why is he instead turning his will on the rest of the world with such vigor?

Mistake number one right here is that Obito doesn't want to destroy the world. Just reform it. It's not like he wants mass extinction of the human race. Second, since when could Obito not be able to look at Kakashi and not deal with it? You're missing the point of "indifference." You have no emotion towards the person. No love nor hate. He says he didn't care either way. He is more focused on getting Rin back. If you can't look at someone because you're angry, that's not indifference. That's still an emotional attachment.

Not every villain is going to be like Sasuke bent on revenge. You will probably claim that he was getting his revenge on the Mist-nin, but I saw that as more of a "Obito Angry. Obito kill everything" rage. It is very possible to be traumatized and not lose your mind completely.

And there are villains who are insane, yet still retain a notion of straight forward thinking. Look at Legato from Trigun. He could go into any town and kill everyone in the blink of an eye. He even says this himself. So why doesn't he just do that? Again, he also says himself "Life is a wasted existence....I intend to wipe out every human being down to the last speck of dust...I spared you, but this is not an act of mercy, this is to show you how painful living really is...make use of the time you have left."

He doesn't just go on a murder-fest because he is going to wipe out everyone anyway in the end. Turning it all into productivity. I've even been say something to real life people saying to them. "Why are you sitting her complaining, when you could be doing something more productive?" I see your point on why someone would be like Sasuke and just kill everyone who did them harm, but Obito doesn't want revenge. He just wants Rin back and to end his pain.

I could say Sasuke is stupid too. What is killing Konoha going to do for you? How is doing such a think bring honor back to your clan when really it will just make things worse. It would be more effective to have the elders reveal the truth than it is to jut kill them right there wouldn't it? Sasuke is a loaded gun who keeps attacking anyone who talks bad about Itachi. What does this solve? Killing them is not the same as changing their opinion. That's what Naruto is trying to say to Sasuke.

If Sasuke succeeds what does he get in return? Nothing, but more bodies and bloodshed. Will he be satisfied? Doubt it. The entire ninja world knows about Itachi and what he did. What's he going to do? Kill everyone? At least Obito gets something in the end. At least he gets what he is after out of it without the misuse of a pointless thing such as revenge.

And punishment...That's a whole new ball game.

I'm saying Obito's actions don't match the character we've come to know as Tobi/Madara. His behavior is necessary for the plot, but it's ooc for him.

The character that he is or the character that you want him to be? Also, according to this manga Obito has a split personality with the "Tobi" persona mixed in with him. Whenever he is that child like being he is Tobi. When he is serious and straight forward, he is Obito.

Maybe the child like persona is messing with his mind, but does Obito himself seem like the kind of person bent out for revenge? I never saw that. I see someone who loves someone so much they are willing to go to the ends of existence for them. It's funny love can both create and destroy so much.

We got to stop thinking that every single villain is exactly alike, because they are not.

The more I reflect back on this chapter, the more dissatisfied I am. The reasoning is weak and motivation moreso.

5 people go through a similar event:
Guy A says "I am going to find the people who did this."
Guy B says "I am going to do whatever it takes to get my girl back."
Guy C says "I want to destroy the world."
Guy D says "I am going to cut myself."
Guy E says "I am going to kill myself."

Which reason is a lesser reason? What makes one person's logic weaker than the other? It's like you're saying that revenge is the only answer to this situation, but it's not.

And one more thing: another villain witnessing the death of their most beloved person right in front of their eyes only sets up more of a disparity for Naruto. Naruto, the perennially untested hero. Sasuke, Nagato, Obito, Kakashi, and many more, all have witnessed the death of a beloved (friend, parents, etc.), right in front of their eyes. But Naruto has not endured any of this kind of loss.

And if he does and doesn't do anything or show no hint of revenge because he wants to end hatred, are you going to say "Oh that is a weak reason?"

I stand with Sasuke here - how can Naruto understand what they are going through when he's never experienced it? Seeing this chapter only makes me more certain that Kishimoto needs to up his game around the main hero. (Remember him? Blond kid? Not an Uchiha?) I hate to say it, but for Naruto to really triumph over their despair, he has to have experienced it himself. He has to be an authentic hero, prevailing where they could not or chose not to.

So...I think Sakura has to die.

Why does Sakura have to die to prove this point? Was Jiraiya's death not enough? I am pretty sure Jiraiya's death got the message to him since he has been like a father to him. He also spent a good time training him, maybe showing life lessons. Not the best role model, but not a bad choice either. Like a fun Uncle. We also have the time when Kakashi died and Naruto experienced that. Also, when he thought Hinata died right in front of him.

He got to the point of emotional breaking. The only difference is is that Naruto managed to get everything back, but how could he know? Then he met his father who renewed his faith. The Pain Arc was even to show that Naruto didn't know what true pain was until Nagato showed him what it all meant.

Sasuke didn't lose the true love of his life either. He lost his whole family and clan by his brother's hand. So why have Sakura die to prove a point when the same point Sasuke got wasn't losing the love of his life, but his family? I think Naruto got that point when Jiraiya died and he had to learn to accept it. He couldn't forgive Nagato for it, but he said he wouldn't hate him either. Meanwhile other characters who experience such things bent their life on revenge or negative emotions.

Naruto's childhood taunting is looking pretty weak compared to Obito, Nagato, Gaara and Sasuke's debilitating traumas.

Childhood taunting isn't the only thing Naruto has gone through is it?

I think Gaara got the worst of it. He had the worse life out of all of them and was traumatized far more than Sasuke was. Imagine the only one you trust telling you that "You are nothing. You are nothing more than a monster. Your mother hated you. Your father despises you and the entire village wants you dead. "

This is why I love the images of Gaara slapping Sasuke being emo with him saying "Shut up will you. Shut up." Yet, Gaara still managed to become a good person in the end because Naruto showed him another path. Naruto who might not have experienced such harshness, still managed to show him that love conquers all. So, what's Sasuke's excuse? Probably a weak one. Probably weaker than Obito's if you really think about it. Yeah, your brother killed your entire clan, but you weren't hated or rejected. You weren't told you're worthless and that you're nothing.

Sasuke looks pretty weak compared to Gaara as well. As least Sasuke was loved and admired by the village and he gave it all up. He could have had everything, but look what revenge got him? Loneliness. Sasuke has spent so much of his life pushing everything away for revenge that it is even surprising how he still has people who cared about him even when he tried to kill them several times. Obito never even had that chance to go back to normal. Never got the chance to return to a normal life. He was pushed into Madara's corner right off the bat. If Kakashi knew Obito was still alive, he probably would have been chasing after him just like Naruto is chasing Sasuke now, but he didn't. Sasuke had more chances to have a better life than any other villain in this show and I'm supposed to be sympathetic to Sasuke? Screw that.

I feel bad for Obito because he was never shown the options. Gaara was shown options and he changed. Nagato was shown options and he changed. Sasuke was shown options and rejected them. So why should Sasuke be forgiven and Obito be dumped on? I am not even saying you need to excuse his actions, I am just asking why we should forgive Sasuke, but not forgive Obito? Cause right now, I want Obito to be saved more than Sasuke. I want Obito to find happiness instead of Sasuke because I know Obito would appreciate it.

Obito has bigger things than revenge on his mind. Revenge solves nothing and Sasuke has shown that so far. He got his revenge against Danzou and yet he still wants more. Obito instead says "Why bother? I rather go for what I really want."

Also, one last thing. If you're going to blame Obito for indirectly causing the deaths of a hundreds of ninja because he organized a group organization bent on killing people, then really the entire mastermind behind all of this is Madara. If Madara never got to Obito, then he would have died without causing problems. If Madara didn't orchestrate everything with bringing the Gedou Mazo, then none of this would have been happening in the first place. So, the true blame is on Madara. That's why I feel bad for Obito because without Madara's influence on taking advantage of Obito grief, Obito would not become the person he is now.

Should I bring up another argument that people use to excuse Sasuke? "Well, all those hundreds of Ninja were nobodies, so we can't count them." It's funny how people want to apply the logic to Obito, but excuse Sasuke for similar crimes.