216 replies to this topic

[ramenanmitsu]

One character I know Hinata can beat is Ten-ten. While I love Ten-ten, let's face it, weapons against a Hyuuga is like trying to throw toothpicks at a spartan shield.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that Tenten throwing weapons to Hinata is like throwing toothpicks?

If we follow the feats in the manga, we haven't seen Hinata having the Kaiten abilities in any of her fights. Without the Kaiten, exceptional speed and dodging skills how can Hinata dodge Tenten's weaponry attack?

[PachucoDesigns]

*sighs and pinches* You know, I realize now you are just trolling. Your logistics are full of contradictions, you are confusing war with bouts and brawls, you say the writer doesn't know what they are talking about when they are the one making the universe. You want him to prove a battle he can EASILY alter in anyway he can and are unwilling to take his word for it. I don't need him to prove anything by demonstration. If he says Sakura is better or anyone is better for that matter, I don't need an out of place battle to prove it.

Of course. Because anyone who disagrees with you is trolling. You keep saying she can handle herself on the battlefield. That denotes a war bout. And let's not forget, that is their main purpose now, is it not? I'm not saying Kishimoto doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm saying that if he has an idea in mind, then he needs to portray it accurately in the story itself. I am a writer, as well. And all planning aside, I know, just as he likely does, that the end result is all that matters. If your fans have to keep coming to you with questions, then you've either left something important out, or your fans are overthinking things. It's not your job to prove it. It's his. If he's going to say something, then he needs to back it up. He can tell me that there's life on Mars in his data books. If it doesn't show up in the story, what difference does it make? And why should I care?

The double-standard my friend is the fact that you go about criticizing Sakura for things that even Hinata has done, but yet say that when Hinata does it it's alright. I hated Sakura fangirling over Sasuke, but she doesn't do that anymore. She isn't striving to get his attention like Hinata does to Naruto anymore. And Hey, people make mistakes, that's part of growing up, but I am looking at the mental thinking. NOT the actions. You can have the right intentions, but make the wrong choices.

What have I "accused" Sakura of, let alone neglected the same reasoning for Hinata? I said nothing about her fangirling over Sasuke. The only way I even alluded to that is by bringing into question what she might do when faced with the task of fighting Sasuke. A moment of hesitation can cost you dearly in a fight, especially with someone as deadly as Sasuke. The same question falls on the Naruto's head. Hell, it falls on Ino's head, too.

Other times you deny the facts, but apply them to Sakura or any character saying they don't apply, but then apply them to Hinata. Whatever powers Sakura has, you outright deny them or think they have no significance. At least I compare and contrast the powers and put up an argument. You have done nothing to support your claim except put down everyone else's. And yeah, while you are right about something's your point of who is the most powerful is no where near answered.

What facts am I denying here? What powers does she have that are going to contribute to a brawl? I'm well aware of her stats. But like I said, you do not make the discrepancy between knowledge and intelligence. They are not the same thing. Her knowledge will definitely prove worthwhile, but more so as a medic than as a fighter. Shikamaru's true power is not in knowledge, but in intelligence. The ability to learn while in the battle, to make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy. I have not seen Sakura do this yet. If you have an example where she has, please show me. Shikamaru is not the only one who does this, although no one does it quite as well as he does. But I haven't seen Sakura do it.

You hate when people diminish Hinata, but then continue to diminish Sakura abilities claiming they do nothing. At least I compared and contrasted saying Hinata is a great defensive fighter and you keep talking like she is the best fighter out there. Sakura has been shown time and time again that she can handle herself in many situations and you deny these. At least she fought an Akatsuki and won. Hinata lost against Pein. You say Sakura's feelings are a liability yet Hinata defying Naruto claim to NOT interfere in a tough battle nearly got herself AND Naruto killed...and all because she loves him. Sakura did that too. She was going to kill Sasuke for Naruto's and like that as well it was a stupid idea. Both girls had to be saved by Naruto. Noble as they are, but at least Sakura didn't do it to get Naruto attention. She did it to relieve Naruto of burden.

I never said I hate it when people diminish Hinata. I hate it when they underestimate any character based on their bias, and that includes both Hinata and Sakura. Just the same, I hate it when they overinflate a character's worth because of their bias. I never said she is the best fighter out there, I said she is considerably more effective than people here are admitting. And further, Sakura did not fight an Akatsuki and win. She fought with Chiyo and won;, that victory was not hers alone. I say Sakura's feelings are a liability because they may lead her to make a bad decision not just for her, but a bad decision that could cause great trouble for the entire war. What Hinata did was reckless, but it did not complicate Naruto's situation any more than it already was. In fact, had she not jumped in, he might not have released the Nine Tails' power and escaped.

I'm not denying that she loves him. I'm denying that she truly knows it. And I am denying that her "confession" didn't have an ulterior motive. That confession was contrived, and she was doing it to make him stop trying to help Sasuke, not for the sake of confessing her love in and of itself. Her approach was disingenuous, and rather inconsiderate. In doing what she did, she assumed that he was only attempting to save Sasuke for her sake, not for Sasuke's or for his own. And so, she got shot down, as she rightly should have been. I have no doubt that she will confess again, but it will be more genuine next time, and Naruto will sense that.

You don't know anything about wars because you confuse a "bout" with a "war" and things they are the same thing. If it one vs one, it is a bout. If it is many versus many, then it is a war.

Let's play this then

Who is a better medic out K11? Sakura.
Who has the better Byakugan? Neji.
Who has the most power? Naruto.

I know plenty about war, and I am not making that mistake. You are. Their worth is completely different in those two scenarios. Which is why I don't believe that she could take Hinata one-on-one, but that her value on the battlefield would be significantly higher.

Yes, Sakura is the best medic. There is no doubt.
Yes, Naji does have the better Byakugan. And even if he didn't, he'd still know how to use it more effectively than Hinata.
Yes, Naruto is the most powerful. There is absolutely no denying that.

A million scenarios where I can think Hinata gets beat out in most of them. I bet you can think of a million more where Hinata might have a chance.

We can't compare battle records because we have only seen Hinata fight like what three times? And she lost every single one of them. We don't even know how many battles she has actually fought and won because Kishimoto never even focused. So while we can't deny her, we can't add her either cause she doesn't have enough info to go on. So we rely on the Databooks because tell us the things that Kishimoto has not or doesn't have to show in the manga. Possibly even telling us things that happened in the background or off-screen if he so chooses.

Yeah, you're probably right. So, if you're so certain, go ahead and list off some scenarios. I'm listening. Just don't expect me not to make a rebuttal if I find flaw in it. That, after all, is what this discussion is all about, isn't it?

Yes, exactly, you're right. So how, then, can we truly assess Hinata's strength if there is no point of reference for comparison? And once again, I find no value in the Data Books until their info is implemented in the story. Let me ask you this: if the data books are the final say on who is stronger, then why was this topic even created? If you think that there is already an indisputable authority, then what good does this conversation serve?

Ever see the movie Tommy Boy?
"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a**, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

Uh-huh. And what is your point? Certain things deserve proper discussion, especially if there is an interest and solid grounds for dispute. So, I reiterate. If you only intend to "take the butcher's word for it," then why are you even bothering to "stick you heard up a bull's a**?"

Oh and one last thing: Just because Hinata could be the weakest of the K11, does not mean she IS the weakest of all time. There is no denying Hinata has strength, but I can think of at least 5 characters out of the K11 not including Naruto or Sakura that could beat her out of either sheer force (as in speed of damage), logistics, or power.

Nor did I say she was. The entire K11 group is a force to be reckoned with, both collectively and individually. I simply see no reason to assume that she is the weakest of them all. Nor do I see any solid basis for your reasoning here.

Neji can beat her (and he has). Lee can beat her if he opens the gates. Sasuke can beat her. Temari can beat her. Shikamaru could beat her.

Neji and Sasuke go without saying. Lee, possibly. But remember how he couldn't defeat Neji? For those same reasons, I'm sure he'd have difficulty with Hinata. However, as far as Temari and Shikamaru, I think you're going to have to state your case.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 29 March 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Fenris]

Hinata had a chance to prove for her streng fighting against Pain. As we all saw, she got ridiculed, torn apart, and tossed away like an old rag, all in less than 20 seconds. Im sure Chouji and Ino would have lasted bit longer because of the fact that they wouldnt do the stupid kitten Hinata did, which was jumping straight at Nagato without any help. That was just plain stupid. I dont care if it was the heat of the moment or anything. kitten like that gets you killed, and she was just lucky that the bastard was feeling a bit merciful that day.

*Praises Dragon.*
*Worships Dragon.*

__________


In reply to the K11 thing about them able to take on Pain and would have the same outcome as her....

When KONOHAMARU, who's like 10, took on Pain by himself like Hinata did, and KILLED him.
And Hinata, who's a lot older and is a Chunin, got one hit KO'd.

And yes, it's cause of the rasengan, but like I said, Konohamaru is a lot younger, a lot less skilled, and was only just learning that jutsu. Hinata is supposed to be in different higher class than him yet he succeeded further than she ever did in that chapter.

I apologize for all the editing on this post I just don't want to seem rude or offensive to anyone, I'm not trying to be but sometimes I find that it's hard to tell whether someone's being harsh online or not, so was just trying to fix that up the best I could...

Edited by Fenris, 29 March 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Darth Krypt]

What facts am I denying here? What powers does she have that are going to contribute to a brawl? I'm well aware of her stats. But like I said, you do not make the discrepancy between knowledge and intelligence. They are not the same thing. Her knowledge will definitely prove worthwhile, but more so as a medic than as a fighter. Shikamaru's true power is not in knowledge, but in intelligence. The ability to learn while in the battle, to make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy. I have not seen Sakura do this yet. If you have an example where she has, please show me. Shikamaru is not the only one who does this, although no one does it quite as well as he does. But I haven't seen Sakura do it.

Dude, did you even pay attention to Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori's fight?

Sakura managed to get out of a very tight spot. She's willing to detonate an explosive kunai to clear the lethal gas and ends up not breathing it.

In such a short time, Sakura was able to analyze Sasori's attacks and counter them accordingly. In your words, "make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy." Chiyo even said that she didn't help Sakura, she just did it on her own.

If you say she is slow, Tsunade has been training her very hard on evasion. Since they are medics, they are not allowed to get hit in battle. Yes, medic nins in this story also participate in battles and not just staying behind and heal the fallen.

Since I've already shown you her battle intelligence, now I'm going to show you the importance of knowledge in battle. In this, Sakura was able to apply her knowledge in creating an antidote and healed herself. If she wasn't able to do that, the fight would be over and Sakura would be dead now. You have the misconception that medics just heal people and can't fight well but this fight clearly shows that even with her being a medic, she uses that ability to FIGHT better. She fights and heals herself at the same time. Now that is what I call an effective way to fight.

Since you emphasize the importance of demonstrations in supporting our claims, I took the trouble to show you all those links and by your belief, you shouldn't be able to deny it this time. Now I want YOU to show me how Hinata is better then Sakura in terms of battling one-on-one. All you've done in this thread is deny people's claims without supporting your own. You did the same thing, claiming something is right but you didn't even follow your own principles of showing manga events to prove that Hinata does not belong in the bottom tier of K11. All you did was talk. Now SHOW ME.

[ramenanmitsu]

Dude, did you even pay attention to Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori's fight?

Sakura managed to get out of a very tight spot. She's willing to detonate an explosive kunai to clear the lethal gas and ends up not breathing it.

In such a short time, Sakura was able to analyze Sasori's attacks and counter them accordingly. In your words, "make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy." Chiyo even said that she didn't help Sakura, she just did it on her own.

If you say she is slow, Tsunade has been training her very hard on evasion. Since they are medics, they are not allowed to get hit in battle. Yes, medic nins in this story also participate in battles and not just staying behind and heal the fallen.

Since I've already shown you her battle intelligence, now I'm going to show you the importance of knowledge in battle. In this, Sakura was able to apply her knowledge in creating an antidote and healed herself. If she wasn't able to do that, the fight would be over and Sakura would be dead now. You have the misconception that medics just heal people and can't fight well but this fight clearly shows that even with her being a medic, she uses that ability to FIGHT better. She fights and heals herself at the same time. Now that is what I call an effective way to fight.

Since you emphasize the importance of demonstrations in supporting our claims, I took the trouble to show you all those links and by your belief, you shouldn't be able to deny it this time. Now I want YOU to show me how Hinata is better then Sakura in terms of battling one-on-one. All you've done in this thread is deny people's claims without supporting your own. You did the same thing, claiming something is right but you didn't even follow your own principles of showing manga events to prove that Hinata does not belong in the bottom tier of K11. All you did was talk. Now SHOW ME.

I second this post.

[Derock]

What abilities, exactly, does she lack in order to take down Sakura? And as for intellectual prowess, everyone constantly speaks about how intelligent she is. But I have yet to see her put this to any actual use in a battle scenario. The only implication I've ever seen of this is her ability to do well on tests. But there is a difference between theory and application. And there is a MAJOR difference between knowledge and intelligence. I will admit that Sakura has a high degree of knowledge, but I have no reason to believe that she is particularly intelligent. Nor do I have any reason to believe that Hinata lacks a keen mind.

And, frankly, I do not care what the data books say. Nor do I care about Kishimoto's intention. This is not quantum physics. There is no peer review, no tests to be done, no need for mathematical accuracy. In spite of his intentions or what he has to say about his characters and their world, his creations are only what he makes them out to be in their development in the actual story. I make observations and deductions based on what I see, based on what is evident in the story itself. I do not defer to databooks or character archetypes, because they are rigid and useless for determining development and outcome. If Kishimoto is a storyteller of any merit, then we should not need him to explain everything he does.

Go to this post right and read it.

Dude, did you even pay attention to Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori's fight?

Sakura managed to get out of a very tight spot. She's willing to detonate an explosive kunai to clear the lethal gas and ends up not breathing it.

In such a short time, Sakura was able to analyze Sasori's attacks and counter them accordingly. In your words, "make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy." Chiyo even said that she didn't help Sakura, she just did it on her own.

If you say she is slow, Tsunade has been training her very hard on evasion. Since they are medics, they are not allowed to get hit in battle. Yes, medic nins in this story also participate in battles and not just staying behind and heal the fallen.

Since I've already shown you her battle intelligence, now I'm going to show you the importance of knowledge in battle. In this, Sakura was able to apply her knowledge in creating an antidote and healed herself. If she wasn't able to do that, the fight would be over and Sakura would be dead now. You have the misconception that medics just heal people and can't fight well but this fight clearly shows that even with her being a medic, she uses that ability to FIGHT better. She fights and heals herself at the same time. Now that is what I call an effective way to fight.

Since you emphasize the importance of demonstrations in supporting our claims, I took the trouble to show you all those links and by your belief, you shouldn't be able to deny it this time. Now I want YOU to show me how Hinata is better then Sakura in terms of battling one-on-one. All you've done in this thread is deny people's claims without supporting your own. You did the same thing, claiming something is right but you didn't even follow your own principles of showing manga events to prove that Hinata does not belong in the bottom tier of K11. All you did was talk. Now SHOW ME.

And I like this post! Well done!

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Tenten fanboy mode activate!

Tenten could totally win against Hinata, yes she may have palm rotation but that doesn't mean anything take whats his face the spider guy he got through Neji's defense with an arrow for crying out loud and Neji is stronger than Hinata. Tenten in my opinion could take Hinata out no problem with how precise she is with her ninja tools and seeing how she's on Neji's team she has enough info about the Hyuga clans taijutsu technique to have a fighting chance, enough said.

[PachucoDesigns]

Dude, did you even pay attention to Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori's fight?

Sakura managed to get out of a very tight spot. She's willing to detonate an explosive kunai to clear the lethal gas and ends up not breathing it.

In such a short time, Sakura was able to analyze Sasori's attacks and counter them accordingly. In your words, "make observations, find holes and implement a counter strategy." Chiyo even said that she didn't help Sakura, she just did it on her own.

If you say she is slow, Tsunade has been training her very hard on evasion. Since they are medics, they are not allowed to get hit in battle. Yes, medic nins in this story also participate in battles and not just staying behind and heal the fallen.

Since I've already shown you her battle intelligence, now I'm going to show you the importance of knowledge in battle. In this, Sakura was able to apply her knowledge in creating an antidote and healed herself. If she wasn't able to do that, the fight would be over and Sakura would be dead now. You have the misconception that medics just heal people and can't fight well but this fight clearly shows that even with her being a medic, she uses that ability to FIGHT better. She fights and heals herself at the same time. Now that is what I call an effective way to fight.

Since you emphasize the importance of demonstrations in supporting our claims, I took the trouble to show you all those links and by your belief, you shouldn't be able to deny it this time. Now I want YOU to show me how Hinata is better then Sakura in terms of battling one-on-one. All you've done in this thread is deny people's claims without supporting your own. You did the same thing, claiming something is right but you didn't even follow your own principles of showing manga events to prove that Hinata does not belong in the bottom tier of K11. All you did was talk. Now SHOW ME.

Ok, Darth Krypt. For the moment, I will concede defeat concerning proving Hinata's adequacy as a fighter, if for nothing else than I cannot find a solid point of reference for the research, and am in no mood to comb through every issue of the manga ever. lol

However, concerning the points about Sakura, I think you're not reading what I'm saying. I'm not saying she's useless, nor am I saying that she belongs at the bottum rung. I'm saying that there are fighters superior to her among the 11, and she does not belong at the top. I'm also saying that it depends on your definition of the word "strong." This is not dragonball. Strong does not mean how many planets you can annihilate with a single breath. There are many factors to be considered in a fight, one-on-one or in a war scenario, and they all have to be taken into account. For instance, she may have speed, but it's nowhere near Lee's. That alone would be enough to put an end to her.

And further, what did I just say? I could have sworn I mentioned that her knowledge would be useful, but not in terms of fighting capacity. And I could swear that I said a medic's value as an asset is much higher than that of any individual soldier, which is why she supposed to be kept away from the front lines.

The point is this: do not gauge based solely on what has been done, but also by the capacity indicated by the story itself. She was supposed to be knowledgeable before she ever even considered becoming a medic. Where the hell was all of that knowledge when it was needed?

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 29 March 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Ok, Darth Krypt. For the moment, I will concede defeat concerning proving Hinata's adequacy as a fighter, if for nothing else than I cannot find a solid point of reference for the research, and am in no mood to comb through every issue of the manga ever. lol

Sakura fanboy mode activated! (copying Leo)

Or u know there is no evidence.

Second, Sakura had training from the 5th hokage. If you think she isn't stronger than Hinata, go ahead and insult the Leaf Village's Hokage as well. Plus, Sakura is the pupil of Tsunade, so she is probably about to show off her Byukugou also. That's just me anyway, I mean, why would Tsunade be the only one to have it? If a medic ninja can only fight with Byukugou, then Sakura is a half useless pupil of her master Tsunade unless she gets it. When she does finally get it (or shows Tsunade that she learned it on her own), then Hinata will be even more below Sakura's fighting skills.

Edited by FoolishYoungling , 30 March 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Sakura fanboy mode activated! (copying Leo)

Or u know there is no evidence.

Second, Sakura had training from the 5th hokage. If you think she isn't stronger than Hinata, go ahead and insult the Leaf Village's Hokage as well. Plus, Sakura is the pupil of Tsunade, so she is probably about to show off her Byukugou also. That's just me anyway, I mean, why would Tsunade be the only one to have it? If a medic ninja can only fight with Byukugou, then Sakura is a half useless pupil of her master Tsunade unless she gets it. When she does finally get it (or shows Tsunade that she learned it on her own), then Hinata will be even more below Sakura's fighting skills.

Sure, FoolishYoungling, keep telling yourself that. Remember, the default position is neutrality. If there is no evidence to prove her effectiveness, then there is no evidence to prove her ineptitude, either. Keep your reasoning about the Pain fight. She was as outclassed as the rest would be, and Sakura would have been beaten and discarded just as easily. It proves nothing.

Do you not remember how Tsunade almost got herself killed by Kabuto? Strength has many forms, as does weakness. We talk about how Naruto is the strongest. In general, yes. But how many times has his recklessness almost gotten him killed? What he has in physical strength, he lacks in subtlety. Once gain, strength and weakness have many forms.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Sure, FoolishYoungling, keep telling yourself that. Remember, the default position is neutrality. If there is no evidence to prove her effectiveness, then there is no evidence to prove her ineptitude, either. Keep your reasoning about the Pain fight. She was as outclassed as the rest would be, and Sakura would have been beaten and discarded just as easily. It proves nothing.

Do you not remember how Tsunade almost got herself killed by Kabuto? Strength has many forms, as does weakness. We talk about how Naruto is the strongest. In general, yes. But how many times has his recklessness almost gotten him killed? What he has in physical strength, he lacks in subtlety. Once gain, strength and weakness have many forms.

You brought up the Part 1 Kabuto fight with her, you do understand she was dealing with one of the main villains now and plus she's facing off against Madara and is surviving. Now stay with me how would you react to seeing both your old teammates standing together getting ready to fight? She was probably emotional at this point. Now Naruto beat Kabuto and Tsunade was facing of against Orochimaru two different leveled Shinobi with Orochimaru being the stronger one at this point in time.

[PachucoDesigns]

You brought up the Part 1 Kabuto fight with her, you do understand she was dealing with one of the main villains now and plus she's facing off against Madara and is surviving. Now stay with me how would you react to seeing both your old teammates standing together getting ready to fight? She was probably emotional at this point. Now Naruto beat Kabuto and Tsunade was facing of against Orochimaru two different leveled Shinobi with Orochimaru being the stronger one at this point in time.

Yeah, I do realize that. She was facing off against one of the main villains before he developed into the formidable figure he has become. She didn't almost lose to him because he is a main villain. She almost lost to him because her main offensive ability, her strength, was trumped by his chakra scalpel. Sever the tendons, her strength goes out the window. That's why it doesn't always require mind blowing power to end a fight. Plus, he knew of her fear of blood, and that was a valuable weapon against her.

Really? She didn't seem too emotional when she was bashing Orochimaru's face in. Not emotional enough to be distracted, let alone lose. And even if she was emotional, that's just one more form of weakness, temporary of not. She didn't lose to Kabuto because she was emotional. She lost to Kabuto because his abilities were the perfect answer to hers.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 12:38 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Sure, FoolishYoungling, keep telling yourself that. Remember, the default position is neutrality. If there is no evidence to prove her effectiveness, then there is no evidence to prove her ineptitude, either. Keep your reasoning about the Pain fight. She was as outclassed as the rest would be, and Sakura would have been beaten and discarded just as easily. It proves nothing.

Do you not remember how Tsunade almost got herself killed by Kabuto? Strength has many forms, as does weakness. We talk about how Naruto is the strongest. In general, yes. But how many times has his recklessness almost gotten him killed? What he has in physical strength, he lacks in subtlety. Once gain, strength and weakness have many forms.

bro, Kabuto is strong. Very strong. BEST VILLAIN EVA!

[Broken Figurine]

Ok, Darth Krypt. For the moment, I will concede defeat concerning proving Hinata's adequacy as a fighter, if for nothing else than I cannot find a solid point of reference for the research, and am in no mood to comb through every issue of the manga ever. lol

However, concerning the points about Sakura, I think you're not reading what I'm saying. I'm not saying she's useless, nor am I saying that she belongs at the bottum rung. I'm saying that there are fighters superior to her among the 11, and she does not belong at the top. I'm also saying that it depends on your definition of the word "strong." This is not dragonball. Strong does not mean how many planets you can annihilate with a single breath. There are many factors to be considered in a fight, one-on-one or in a war scenario, and they all have to be taken into account. For instance, she may have speed, but it's nowhere near Lee's. That alone would be enough to put an end to her.

And further, what did I just say? I could have sworn I mentioned that her knowledge would be useful, but not in terms of fighting capacity. And I could swear that I said a medic's value as an asset is much higher than that of any individual soldier, which is why she supposed to be kept away from the front lines.

The point is this: do not gauge based solely on what has been done, but also by the capacity indicated by the story itself. She was supposed to be knowledgeable before she ever even considered becoming a medic. Where the hell was all of that knowledge when it was needed?

You'v been using a Hinata vs Sakura comparison, however, throughout most of your arguments, which can confuse people since we wonder where your big support for Hinata comes from, yet arguing against people who support Sakura.

We've seen Sakura "defeat" Lee, Sai and Kiba when she threw that sleeping gas. Call that what you will, but it was effective enough for her to run away. She let them fall asleep and went off, but what if it was a fight? She caught them off guard of course, and they weren't intending to fight her, but rather help her, so it can be said that if it were a battle situation it wouldn't happen, but we've seen her use her abilities and it is food for thought.

I've never really liked Hinata, mostly because people exalt her without really looking at her. You say you don't want to comb through every issue, but just by remembering she doesn't actually ever appear very strong, and not in any battle enough to properly gauge her ability. I honestly don't know where I'd put her, but if we're going based on what was shown in the manga, then I think Ino, Tenten and Hinata just don't have enough to properly rank. We can only hypothesize, and that's where it gets real tricky. How much of the informed ability can you attribute to the character? Hinata has her clan's background, but how much can you pull from that? She may not use everything that's shown. We know she has the byakugan, but would it translate well into battle? That's kind of up to you, and with biases against characters there's no objective way of doing that.

Sakura is in a better position to be judged, because you don't need to slavishly comb through the manga of instances where she pops up. She had a major battle, we've had characters talk about her ability, and she's shown her strength of character better than Hinata has, even if it is solely on the basis that she's had more panel time. By that alone, she gets put above the other girls. Anything else would be speculation. I put her near the top because she's just had more importance throughout the manga and more battle-time, and that she had put Lee to sleep and defeated Zetsu-Neji-Clone is the closest that any other Konoha 11 character has come to fighting these two and winning. Which... is not much. We haven't seen them fight each other since chuunin exams.

Shikamaru would probably be put on the top just because how favourably his abilities have been treated. He could "think of a way" to beat anybody, so is implied by Kishimoto. That too is hard to judge... How much do you feel it is right for his character to be able to create virtually any scenario where he is the victor?

This conversation really has to rely somewhat on personal interpretation. We don't have enough manga evidence to properly rank anyone. We know Naruto and Sasuke are on top, probably Shikamaru beneath them, Neji and Lee, and then we have Sakura and Choji, and then the rest just haven't had the same battle-panel time. Would Shino be stronger than Sakura? Insects against a medic with knowledge of poison? Idk. What about Kiba? Is he stronger than Choji and Sakura?

I don't even know where to begin trying to give fair criteria even if we only go for what's given to us in panels. I will say though, I can't take the comparison between Hinata and Sakura seriously. It's like comparing Ino or Tenten to her. She doesn't compare by what we've been shown, and that's just it. It sounds defeating if you like her, but there is only speculation when it comes to her. People will interpret her one way or the other, but Sakura has more evidence supporting her ability. That's the bottom line. Then, there is a database, which further supports her being stronger. How much are you willing to believe that? You said no, but that doesn't change that Hinata still doesn't have support for her being the stronger character.

Edited by Broken Figurine, 30 March 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

bro, Kabuto is strong. Very strong. BEST VILLAIN EVA!

You have yet to define "strong." And if you're telling me that he beat her because he is strong, then you're basically telling me that he is stronger than her. Is that right?

[FoolishYoungling]

You have yet to define "strong." And if you're telling me that he beat her because he is strong, then you're basically telling me that he is stronger than her. Is that right?

yes, Kabuto is stronger.

[PachucoDesigns]

yes, Kabuto is stronger.

Then, if that's the case, I have no problem dismissing the fact that she's the 5th Hokage, because it seems that the "the 5 Kages are the strongest in the ninja world" proposition is false. And I have no reason to give Sakura's training from her any merit, especially regarding "strength."

[FoolishYoungling]

Then, if that's the case, I have no problem dismissing the fact that she's the 5th Hokage, because it seems that the "the 5 Kages are the strongest in the ninja world" proposition is false. And I have no reason to give Sakura's training from her any merit, especially regarding "strength."

Of course the 5 kages aren't the toughest. Killer Bee, Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, Yahiko, Nagato, Pikachu, Konan, Tobi(masked man), Jiraya, Itachi. These are the big characters. The kages are tough as nails, but they are not as powerful as those people I listed there. For example, do you honestly think any kage could beat 8 tails, 9 tails, or any of the bad guys just 1v1? Of course not. Could the kages beat any of the K11, or any of the jonins? Of course.

On other thoughts, we all know that the new generation always passes the previous ones, so Sakura will surpass Tsunade, meaning Sakura will become very powerful, and probably become the best medic of all time. Even better than the first hokage's ability to heal without using seals. Nice little final touch to our heroine.

Edited by FoolishYoungling , 30 March 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Could the kages beat any of the K11, or any of the jonins? Of course.

Could they really? At this point, I severely doubt most of the Kages could beat Naruto. And that includes Tsunade.

[FoolishYoungling]

Could they really? At this point, I severely doubt most of the Kages could beat Naruto. And that includes Tsunade.

I didn't mean Naruto or Sasuke when I said "any of the K11". That's why I put them in the list I gave of the tough guys. I would also like to add that the 1st and 4th hokage would be a nice addition to the tough guys.