148 replies to this topic

[The Tax-Man]

so basically one is teleporting and the other is speed travel?

Yes. That's what it is. In simple terms.

[Phantom_999]

You think those three will Teach Naruto Hiraishin then?

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 November 2011 - 05:06 AM.

[RedDelicious]

You think those three will Teach Naruto Hiraishin then?

Unlikely. Oh, they'll try to explain it to him, and Naruto will gain the technique eventually.
But he needs to "feel" the answer, not be lectured on it.

"It's like ice cream, when they add in mint to a chocolate-vanilla swirl. That makes it even more delicious!"
"Don't make things more complicated, Gamakichi!"
"Aaaaah, now I get it!"

Edited by RedDelicious, 04 November 2011 - 06:45 AM.

[Codus N]

I somehow doubt the latter part. Yes, That jutsu is more or less the fastest thing possible (since you can't go faster than light), but by taking a shortcut, like you said, Minato essentially traveled to all distances in the same moment of time, no matter how far. Even with traps, she would need to predict Minato's every move to set up perfect traps. See the thing is, he's not a robot that's totally predictable and he could obviously manipulate time and space so he could obviously freeze time for himself as well. Even IF she set up traps and predicted his every move(impossible, btw), she would not be able to surprise him OR catch up with him, because she still travels at a finite speed, while Minato could essentially travel the width of the universe in the time taken to use the hirashin.

Actually, I think out of anybody in the Narutoverse, Mabui may just have a little bit more than 40% fighting chance than anyone else when going up against Minato. If you consider Minato's basic strategy when fighting 1-on-1, he spreads out his Kunai around the battlefield. Mabui, having intel on this would also set up her traps around the battlefield beforehand as well, once she catches him in her trap, all she has to do teleport him away to another position on the battlefield as well. And at the same time she can deal lots of damage to him too.

Her traps are related to her jutsu FYI. Since the jutsu seems to need some kind of seal circle or something, I don't know. Y'know that platform where Tsunade and Ei stood?? I'm betting there's some kind of seal formula formed into a circle. So all she needs to do form the seal formulas on the battlefield as her trap. Mabui, if I had to say, seems to be about as smart as Shizune. She just gives off that "intelligent" aura. So she should be able to play "chess with Minato pretty well.

I am saying this because this seems to be the biggest debate out of anything in the Naruto universe and people keep confusing speed with teleportation. Speed uses relativity. Teleportation throws that out the window.

You have to read the words a little carefully. You keep thinking I am using the word "Travel" as in where has he been and where did he end up. Point A to point B. That you literally go from point A to point B. Which is not wrong, but I am looking at the movement "traveling" from Point A to be Point B. The action. The time it takes to go from point A and point B which is why I said "If you think of the term "traveling" as "An object moving across space" then this does no such a thing."

Again, I said this is where the confusion is.

If you get into your car and drive to the store. You're moving across space.
Minato moves through it. He bypasses distance and literally goes right to the end point.

So yeah he DOES travel to the other point, but he doesn't go to the point. He brings the point to him instead. He doesn't move, the destination itself is brought to him. All the other jutsu (body-flicker, Heavenly Transfer) moves the object to the point.
I am not looking at where you are going. I am looking at how you get there and I am not exaggerating my point because Minato probably could do that if he has enough chakra to perform such a thing. Energy is neither created nor destroyed so it just recycles and the universe has an infinite amount of energy flowing through it.

This makes me wonder even more. If the ten-tails is on the moon and Tobi is going to the moon to unlock it, perhaps Naruto will use the FGT to get to the moon. Especially, if he uses the Nine-tails chakra as his energy source. We don't know how much energy it takes to transport that far because there are so many factors to what you are transporting to how far you are taking it.


Also think of this, if the scientist didn't believe it, would they have brought it up at all?

Here's another explanation to help clarify James's explanation.

Think of a wall in between you and, let's say cake. There's a door on the far right of the wall, far away from the cake. The Body Flicker and Heavenly Transfer can get you all the way to the door, through it, and then to the cake.

Hiraishin just tears a hole between you and the cake and you can just grab the cake or walk through a hole and pick up the cake. You don't even make the distance from your point -> door-> other side of the wall -> cake.

Great explanations from everyone and I love 'em But I will explain my stance here. I'm in the belief that Mabui's jutsu is a form of ST manipulation as well after all, since it was an attempt at copying Hiraishin, it would have to move from the same principle: ST manipulation. Of course, I'm only saying this until the next Databook proves it either wrong or right.

Unlikely. Oh, they'll try to explain it to him, and Naruto will gain the technique eventually.
But he needs to "feel" the answer, not be lectured on it.

"It's like ice cream, when they add in mint to a chocolate-vanilla swirl. That makes it even more delicious!"
"Don't make things more complicated, Gamakichi!"
"Aaaaah, now I get it!"

An easier way would be them teleporting him, so he gets the idea.

[harry4e]

I don't take this as a bad thing. I actually think it's a good thing because it means they have record of the technique and Naruto will learn it. It seems that no jutsu is ever unlearnable, but not everyone can use it effectively. I mean, even they said they can't do it by themselves, they have to combine themselves to effectively use it.

I bet Naruto will be able to use it as effectively as Minato can. Which I think makes all the difference.

As for why A has his left hand back: after all the time we seen people get their limbs ripped off and have them grown back the next chapter over, I don't really have a problem with this. Tobi has done it what....three times now?

I see your point but it's one of the things that really fustrates me about this Manga, how certain thngs are so shrouded in mystery until it is revealed and then people seem to pop out of the wood work knowing about it. Like Kushina thee was hardly any mention of her until she was revealed and then turns out she was quite well known specially in Kumo, The resurrection Jutsu, it was shrouded in mystery, yet all he Kages knew about it, and now the Hirashin, turns out he had taught it to others before..ugessting Naruto Naruto is going to use it soon.

While agree Nruto will be able to use is as effectively as Minato I think Naruto will have to use it differently to how Minato used it, if there is one thing Kishimoto has made blatently obvious Naruto cannot use a Jutsu like it's meant to. We first had the Clone Technique, due to the Kyuubi (I think or his Chakra levels) he can't do normal Clones, so he ended up learning Shadow Clones. Then came Rasengan again because of Control issues because of the Kyuubi he has to use Clones, Then RaseShuriken can't use if without being in Sage Mode, He can't stay in Sage mode like he's meant to, because The Kyuubi won't allow him to merge with Ma and Pa, So has to use Clones to gather Natural Chakra, Going into Bijuu mode is at the moment not possible lso different for him becaue the Kyuubi is not one to play nice and the effect being in Kyuubi mode also appears to be different, maybe because only the Ying Chakra is sealed in him. He can't use the Bijuu Bomb because again the Kyuubi won't help him so he will have to leanr another method to use it...I think the only Normal Jutsu he can do is the Summoning.

I'd be more surprised if Naruto used the Hiraishin same way as Minato than if he had to work a way round some sort of created Barrier, it will probably be more effective for him because he has more Chakra than Minato, probably will involve Clones and Kyuubi Mode, where Minato could defeat hundreds in seconds, Naruto will be able to defeat Thousands in half the time.

[tricksie]

I see your point but it's one of the things that really fustrates me about this Manga, how certain thngs are so shrouded in mystery until it is revealed and then people seem to pop out of the wood work knowing about it. Like Kushina thee was hardly any mention of her until she was revealed and then turns out she was quite well known specially in Kumo, The resurrection Jutsu, it was shrouded in mystery, yet all he Kages knew about it, and now the Hirashin, turns out he had taught it to others before..ugessting Naruto Naruto is going to use it soon.

Yeah, that is a bummer about the manga. Basically, nothing is sacred, and anything/anyone can be connected and/or resurrected. Minato's technique is built up to be so unique and powerful, that it's tacitly given as the reason he was made Kage at such a young age. It really takes the mystique out of it to learn that others knew, and practiced some form of it. Earlier on in the manga, much was made of not revealing your jutsus to other ninjas (remember Jiraiya scolding Naruto for blabbing about what he'd learned, even to other Konoha nins), recapturing rogue ninjas to control the spread of secret village jutsus, and destroying the bodies of fallen nins (like when a fallen anbu flickers out of existence) to keep the enemy from dredging the body for secrets. So to think that Minato's prized technique was known well enough by so many people turns the reader's perceptions on end.

Bystanders describe it as a "Yellow Flash." So no information would be gained just by observing him. Thus data about the justsu would either have to come from some large pool of information on how the technique works or by Minato teaching it himself.

Things like this destroy the myth of hidden knowledge within the manga.

It would be like Kishimoto touting the sharingan for so long, it's mystique and notoriety among other villages and the fear it instilled in enemies. Then we find out that there are several other groups that have cultivated similar occular powers based on the sharingan, and use them to the same effect. (Sort of like Danzo with his Pez-dispenser sharingan arm. But more like drawing on pooled knowledge and less like insane eyeball hoarding.) The bubble of mystery and power around the sharingan would burst.

It makes buying into the story a little harder, because as a reader you really don't know what will happen next. And not in a good way. Kishimoto could easily pull the rug out from under any number of situations and change up the whole plot, based on a single shabby flashback.

As for Kushina, and the village's treatment of the only other person in the village with her namesake, I've often wondered if she was ever really accepted into the village. The only perspective we're shown is from Minato and Naruto's pov, and they loved her. But she's not shown in an accepted light by anyone else. Sasuke's mom is cool to her (no matter how the fanfics show them as friends), and Ibwaki (the Third's wife - I know I've got the name wrongish) was irritate with her. So to me, her whole backstory — her role in the village, the hiding of her marriage, the hiding of her pregnancy — takes a pretty big suspension of belief.

Couple this with the addition of knowing that Minato had people close enough to him to help wield his most notable jutsu, it's hard to believe all these people would just disappear on the birth of his baby, and let the child nearly slip through the cracks. Because it's becoming more and more apparent that quite a few people did know the truth about Naruto's birth. Especially, as someone mentioned, if these people were his elite guard...they would have known about Kushina.

[Nate River]

Couple this with the addition of knowing that Minato had people close enough to him to help wield his most notable jutsu, it's hard to believe all these people would just disappear on the birth of his baby, and let the child nearly slip through the cracks. Because it's becoming more and more apparent that quite a few people did know the truth about Naruto's birth. Especially, as someone mentioned, if these people were his elite guard...they would have known about Kushina.

I agree and I'm left to chaulking up the whole thing to a giant plot hole because I cannot square the whole thing. As you mentioned earlier, all the villagers knew the Kyuubi was sealed within Naruto. It stands to reason that all the ninja did as well. In fact, anyone who knew of the third's law should have been able to make the connection. This would include ninja close to Minato (Genma and Company, his student Kakashi, Asuma, and so no). And despite the very obvious ostracization, nobody, except Iruka, appears to have lifted a finger. Iruka and Mizuki are the only two given explanations for this.

The impression makes them all look really bad either they knew of the evil and did nothing or they made super human efforts to ignore the problem. Either way, they would come off looking awful. Yet, not one thing in the story itself gives me the impression that Kishimoto intended any of those particular ninja to look that way. They aren't shown feeling bad and Naruto's not asking questions or confronting them about it. We just get one big release at the end of the Pain arc showing acceptance,

And that leads me to my other gripe about the handling of his past: How can you off screen the revelation of an event to friends he had such a hard time making when that event was a big reason why he had a hard time making those connections in the first place? How could he off screen them finding out about Kyuubi?

So, much wasted development.

The current chapter looks like a by-of-seat-of-your pants plot gap stuffer because he needs all the Kage's in one place and needs them there quickly.

[alexander]

I agree and I'm left to chaulking up the whole thing to a giant plot hole because I cannot square the whole thing. As you mentioned earlier, all the villagers knew the Kyuubi was sealed within Naruto. It stands to reason that all the ninja did as well. In fact, anyone who knew of the third's law should have been able to make the connection. This would include ninja close to Minato (Genma and Company, his student Kakashi, Asuma, and so no). And despite the very obvious ostracization, nobody, except Iruka, appears to have lifted a finger. Iruka and Mizuki are the only two given explanations for this.

The impression makes them all look really bad either they knew of the evil and did nothing or they made super human efforts to ignore the problem. Either way, they would come off looking awful. Yet, not one thing in the story itself gives me the impression that Kishimoto intended any of those particular ninja to look that way. They aren't shown feeling bad and Naruto's not asking questions or confronting them about it. We just get one big release at the end of the Pain arc showing acceptance,

And that leads me to my other gripe about the handling of his past: How can you off screen the revelation of an event to friends he had such a hard time making when that event was a big reason why he had a hard time making those connections in the first place? How could he off screen them finding out about Kyuubi?

So, much wasted development.

You know, because of that, even today I think the majority of the Leaf people are a bunch of hypocrites, it's incredible how after over 15 years of negligence and hate, they suddenly act as if nothing happened. There was no "I'm sorry for being an a**hole with you for your whole life" or "my bad for being such an bigot" after the battle with Pain. They totally ignored the fact. And somehow this really torns me up in the stomach.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

You know, because of that, even today I think the majority of the Leaf people are a bunch of hypocrites, it's incredible how after over 15 years of negligence and hate, they suddenly act as if nothing happened. There was no "I'm sorry for being an a**hole with you for your whole life" or "my bad for being such an bigot" after the battle with Pain. They totally ignored the fact. And somehow this really torns me up in the stomach.

Well, their acceptance of Naruto IS the apology for ignoring him his whole life. They don't see him as a monster anymore, but as a hero. For Naruto, that's all he really needs. Of course, if anything happens and Naruto becomes a scapegoat, they could easily turn against him.... So eh.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

During the whole Pain invasion when people were being questioned on where Naruto was they all kept saying he's apart of this village we wont tell you a thing.

[FoolishYoungling]

During the whole Pain invasion when people were being questioned on where Naruto was they all kept saying he's apart of this village we wont tell you a thing.

If I was one of them, I would just lie, be like "Oh he went to the so-and-so village the other day on a mission"...

[shadow_Uzumaki]

If I was one of them, I would just lie, be like "Oh he went to the so-and-so village the other day on a mission"...

Then you die anyway....

But it shows the depth of their acceptance that they were willing to die for the one they once thought was Kyuubi.

[Phantom_999]

You know, because of that, even today I think the majority of the Leaf people are a bunch of hypocrites, it's incredible how after over 15 years of negligence and hate, they suddenly act as if nothing happened. There was no "I'm sorry for being an a**hole with you for your whole life" or "my bad for being such an bigot" after the battle with Pain. They totally ignored the fact. And somehow this really torns me up in the stomach.

Yeah I feel the same way. but changing your mind is a choice not hypocrisy unless they turn on him again for such petty reasons then they don't MEAN what they say

[alexander]

Yeah I feel the same way. but changing your mind is a choice not hypocrisy unless they turn on him again for such petty reasons then they don't MEAN what they say

It IS hypocrisy because they change their attitude with Naruto without trying to apologize to him first. It's the same thing as if you are very rude to an person every day and sudenlly you start acting all nice and friendly without trying to make up for your behaviour firt.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

It IS hypocrisy because they change their attitude with Naruto without trying to apologize to him first. It's the same thing as if you are very rude to an person every day and sudenlly you start acting all nice and friendly without trying to make up for your behaviour firt.

But there acceptance was them saying sorry so it wouldnt matter if they apologize.

[CloudMountainJuror]

But there acceptance was them saying sorry so it wouldnt matter if they apologize.

It can be looked at in both ways, really. You can claim that their acceptance is their apology, or that it isn't a sufficient substitute for an apology.

[alexander]

But there acceptance was them saying sorry so it wouldnt matter if they apologize.

I disagree, acceptance is something they own to Naruto since he was born, after all he is an fellow villager. There is 0 need for Naruto to earn it. But say that they are sorry is something they need to do, otherwise, it will feel like all the bad things they did to Naruto never happened.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

I disagree, acceptance is something they own to Naruto since he was born, after all he is an fellow villager. There is 0 need for Naruto to earn it. But say that they are sorry is something they need to do, otherwise, it will feel like all the bad things they did to Naruto never happened.

Kishi could have easily had them all apologize off panel we may never know but im agreeing with Zac.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Hey, Naruto doesn't have a problem with it, in the end, we're just over-analyzing it.

In fact, if Naruto demands their apology, it'd be OOC.

To Naruto, their acceptance of him is much better than any apology. Remember Naruto's face when the entire village greeted him after the Pein Invasion Arc? That utter look of happiness that came from their welcome? He's fine with it. <- Understatement of the year....

[tricksie]

Hey, Naruto doesn't have a problem with it, in the end, we're just over-analyzing it.

In fact, if Naruto demands their apology, it'd be OOC.

To Naruto, their acceptance of him is much better than any apology. Remember Naruto's face when the entire village greeted him after the Pein Invasion Arc? That utter look of happiness that came from their welcome? He's fine with it. <- Understatement of the year....

You know, I don't think it's over-analyzing. I think it's just the pebble-in-shoe irritation of a poorly resolved issue.

Yes the village acknowledged him after the Pein attack. But time would show that Naruto wasn't ok with it. Remember in the waterfall when his true feelings came out? Some part of him was still deeply resentful. Their acknowledgement didn't touch him, not in his deepest heart. He had to forgive them before he could accept their change.

Which is all sunny and lovely, but it's a conditional acceptance of him. And it doesn't provide the clean resolution of an outright apology by someone...anyone. They acknowledge his as their hero, but Naruto rightly says that they didn't care about him before. He forgives, but it's never directly resolved on the villagers side. This is what remains troubling long after the fact.

And what's troublesome now is that Kishi is retconning the past by inserting all these shinobis into a history which completely excluded Naruto. It's hard to think of them as heroic when all I can think is "And where the hell were you?"

There two different issues here, but one unifying theme: Kishimoto is not resolving these situations cleanly. And now he's making the past even stickier by inserting shiny, happy shinobis into Naruto's crappy childhood.

As readers, we have to decide who's side we're on. And from the beginning, it's been Naruto's (because that's how the story was developed). So it creates a conflict in the mind of the reader when the development of the backstory is tweaked and warped. Now we are forced to accept that either the shinobis were around but too busy to deal with the boy — all of them — or that some major shift in the storyline happened off screen. Because Naruto would not only have to forgive the villagers for their stupidty, but also forgive the shinobis for their failure to do what they morally should have for their leaders son and the village's future powerhouse. (After all, power is why the villages had jinchurrikis.) It's these blurred lines which trip up the reader's faith in the storyline.

Edited by tricksie, 05 November 2011 - 02:52 AM.