123 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Isn't Naruto's faction basically a World War 2 reference in that it's name is similar to the Allied Forces but with the word Shinobi added to it. I'm not sure what Kishimoto's stance on World War 2 is but you do have a point in that it could potentially cause a bit of controversy considering how things went down during and after the war I guess. I would really appreciate it if you could explain more in-depth about why you think it wouldn't be a good idea if Kishimoto wouldn't do that if you have a bit of prior knowledge about Japan during World War 2

Actually Allied Forces was used during WWI as well- when Japan was on the Allied side. (It was used late in the war- when the US joined the war in 1917.) The allies of WWI were: UK (then including Canada, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, Egypt and India), France, and Russia (until after the Russian Revolution in 1917 when they became essentially a neutral country), Belgium, Serbia, Japan (then including Korea), Greece, Romania, USA, Portugal, Brazil, China, Cuba, Haiti, Panama, Thailand (then still called Siam), Liberia, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica

The other side (called Central Powers) was made up of: Germany, Austro-Hungary (Austria and Hungary), Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire (by then a crumbling power), Poland, Azerbaijan, Finland, Ukraine, Lithuania

Italy kind of played for both sides but declared itself on the allied side. Neutral countries included: Norway, Sweden and Denmark, Switzerland, Spain, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Mexico, Argentina, Afghanistan, Persia, Bhutan


As far as WWII history goes, most Japanese have a negative opinion about what the leadership of Japan did during that time. The late Emperor Hirohito isn't included in that because the Japanese Emperor was (as now) a mere figurehead. He signed off on some rather questionable documents created by the political leadership, but that's the extent of his involvement (the more sympathetic take is that he was a hostage to them, the more realistic is that he just didn't emotionally involve himself at all- just rubber stamped whatever they brought him as what he considered his duty. Hirohito never really did step out of whatever role he was told to do, unlike his son the current Emperor Akahito- who has chosen to be a symbolic leader, in an understated way, more like the British royalty- visiting people in disaster struck areas, etc...

[The Tax-Man]

Isn't Naruto's faction basically a World War 2 reference in that it's name is similar to the Allied Forces but with the word Shinobi added to it. I'm not sure what Kishimoto's stance on World War 2 is but you do have a point in that it could potentially cause a bit of controversy considering how things went down during and after the war I guess. I would really appreciate it if you could explain more in-depth about why you think it wouldn't be a good idea if Kishimoto wouldn't do that if you have a bit of prior knowledge about Japan during World War 2. I am aware of the war crimes the Empire of Japan committed during the war but I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge on the subject, that's all.


On your second point. Thank you for pointing that out because now I can strengthen my argument and eliminate any confusion (to an extent). Of course Naruto wouldn't kill Sasuke out of rage because that would be out of character. If Sasuke killed Iruka or generally anyone close to Naruto he would be very upset at the unfortunate circumstances. He would then realize that saving Sasuke would just simply not work out and would have to go through what you described as an "Old Yeller situation" and put the Uchiha down like a dog with rabies while feeling great despair in the process.

Well for one Japan lost the war. It would be bitter. And the empire wasn't at its best.

[Otaru]

More seriously, i wouldn't like the "Madara took Obito's body" plot !

It was just a joke, but who knows...

[Paptala]

So... You guys don't think Naruto would be pissed as hell if Sasuke killed Sakura, Iruka or Kakashi? He would "sympathize" him? What the hell, he'd kick Sasuke's a$$! He wouldn't be like "Oh, Sasuke has no return," I think he'd be more then ready to kill his sorry butt. He's already witnessed Sasuke's change.

I cannot see Sasuke killing any of the rookies, Iruka, or Kakashi. This is for the simple reason that I cannot see the story ending without Sasuke's redemption when the entire second half of the story was built around saving him, and I can't see Naruto forgiving/redeeming Sasuke in the event that he killed someone so personally close to him.

In the event that Sasuke did kill someone like that, I can see Naruto raging, at both Sasuke and himself for not trying to stop Sasuke when he had the chance at the summit. Perhaps sympathizing, yet still being unable to forgive him (again, much like how he dealt with Nagato).

[al0eaz]

I've been on deployment so I'm not sure what I've missed (I saw that OVA today. Epic.) but I read backwards a bit (Though not all the way, I left sometime last October) and I used logic to figure out sakura hasnt shown up since... well... I can't even remember. So maybe with this latest installment it will be time to see sakura again? And I have a feeling we are going to get a nice romantic chapter. (At least we can wish right? )

In other words I'm glad to see Naruto is actually going to do something in this war besides looking at the undersides of animals. If anyone would be willing to school me up on anything I might have missed in the last like 7 months that would be awesome.

[Otaru]

Come on Kishi, give us NaruSaku at last

[The Tax-Man]

I've been on deployment so I'm not sure what I've missed (I saw that OVA today. Epic.) but I read backwards a bit (Though not all the way, I left sometime last October) and I used logic to figure out sakura hasnt shown up since... well... I can't even remember. So maybe with this latest installment it will be time to see sakura again?

We saw her like a million times after that. She doesn't have to show up for 5 chapters at least. We need some Naruto time yo! He hasn't had real action in forever!

[Darth Krypt]

We saw her like a million times after that. She doesn't have to show up for 5 chapters at least. We need some Naruto time yo! He hasn't had real action in forever!

He's gonna get some now that's for sure!

[TAMU Express]

Isn't Naruto's faction basically a World War 2 reference in that it's name is similar to the Allied Forces but with the word Shinobi added to it. I'm not sure what Kishimoto's stance on World War 2 is but you do have a point in that it could potentially cause a bit of controversy considering how things went down during and after the war I guess. I would really appreciate it if you could explain more in-depth about why you think it wouldn't be a good idea if Kishimoto wouldn't do that if you have a bit of prior knowledge about Japan during World War 2. I am aware of the war crimes the Empire of Japan committed during the war but I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge on the subject, that's all.


On your second point. Thank you for pointing that out because now I can strengthen my argument and eliminate any confusion (to an extent). Of course Naruto wouldn't kill Sasuke out of rage because that would be out of character. If Sasuke killed Iruka or generally anyone close to Naruto he would be very upset at the unfortunate circumstances. He would then realize that saving Sasuke would just simply not work out and would have to go through what you described as an "Old Yeller situation" and put the Uchiha down like a dog with rabies while feeling great despair in the process.

I'm glad I could help. For how WWII is handled in Japan, let me just say this. I'm not saying mentioning WWII in japan is taboo or forbidden. The problem is the country of Japan now is extremely different in many ways from the Rising Sun empire of the 1930s. They were extremely aggressive and militaristic to satisfy economic and resource needs such as oil and coal, and they embraced an ideology that they should control the Pacific. In the 1930s many islands around the Pacific were controlled by the British, Dutch, and French. Japan wanted these territories controlled by Japan not european powers. This aggressive ideology was kind of thrown away after WWII, and I think referencing the war can bring memories of that ideology. If you want to see how strong they believed in that ideology, look at their surrender WWII.

The U.S warned the Japanese at the Potsdamn Conference that Japan would face complete obliteration if they did not surrender. The U.S dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and still the Japanese would not surrender after so much destruction, prompting the bomb on Nagasaki. Just a lot of bad moments in that time period.

Edited by TAMU Express, 17 April 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[ciardha]

The U.S warned the Japanese at the Potsdamn Conference that Japan would face complete obliteration if they did not surrender. The U.S dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and still the Japanese would not surrender after so much destruction, prompting the bomb on Nagasaki. Just a lot of bad moments in that time period.

That's the western version of the end of the war- what actually happened was Japan was fearful of US going on an all out vengeance driven destruction of their country- mass rapes of women, etc...

They attempted to surrender to Russia on August 5, 1945. Because Russia was the only one of the Allied powers that hadn't yet declared war on Japan, so they hoped for a peaceful surrender with a peace treaty that wouldn't be too harsh. The Russians responded by declaring war on Japan on the same day the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. Information about the level of destruction in Hiroshima did not reach Tokyo until August 9th- the day the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

The Japanese government was in complete disarray by that point, no one could decide what to do after Russia declared war on the 6th, but the leader of the militarists- Tojo, was on the outs with just about all the factions- which is why the Japanese government so readily turned him over to the Occupation forces for trial after the war- he had been the ringleader of much of the most extreme decisions, and they were quite ready to rid themselves of his taint. The Japanese public and most the leadership were so relieved that the American's occupation was basically what they had hoped they'd get from the Russians it restored the generally positive opinion most Japanese had toward the US before the militarists took over (Surprisingly, even during WWII most of the Japanese government propaganda wasn't virulently anti American, mildly pro American statements were okay, so long as the Japanese war effort wasn't criticized- a lot had the attitude of "it's unfortunate we are at war right now, someday we won't be, and can be friends again".)

[TAMU Express]

Yes that is correct that the fear of occupation played a part, but that does not really encompass the ideology of their actions during WWII. Second, the idea that Russia declaring war on Japan was a shock to the Japanese is not accurate. Stalin made it fairly clear at Potsdam that they would declare war on Japan after Germany fell. They did that to have a late land grab at the end of the war to take North Korea and northern china, which is large part to why North Korea became a communist country.

Edited by TAMU Express, 17 April 2011 - 07:56 AM.

[naruto-z]

Interesting - I hadn't really gotten the WWII reference until then, but you're right about the allied forces stuff. I wonder if the literal words in Japanese are Shinobi Allied Forces or if that is our closest tranlsation. It may be intentional from Kishimoto, or it may be the translator has grabbed the easiest words, not really aware of historical significance.

On the completely-off-topic Madara/Tobi issue, I've been rethinking this lately. I've always figured Madara was Obito because of name similarity, looks and emotional significance to the story (the connection to Kakashi and all that. Madara would be just that much more villainous if he took sweet Obito's body.) But lately I've been wondering if he is in fact another Uchiha from the massacre.

Since Madara was involved, he could have certainly targeted and killed an Uchiha with a much more powerful sharingan and used his body as a shell. Like Shisui? (I know, there's a lot of problems with that choice, but just as a "for instance.")

But then again, Madara and Kakashi both use teleportation jutsu through the sharingan, so that's another mark for the eyes being from the same set. I wonder if the same sharingan, used against itself, would cancel it out or render it powerless? Sort of a fail safe for the division of the eyes. But then again, Madara has that "wall o'sharingan" to draw from. He could easily slip in another one, I suppose.

Alrighty. I'm done thinking about the logistics of stealing eyeballs.

see, that reminds me of something. When team seven finally meet up again and kakashi tries to end it all with his mangekyo, madara just says don't even try...it won't work on me.

[ShadowWolf]

Thoughts --Click here to view--

I think we are bound to see the revival of the 10-tails after Naruto gets his kyuubi extracted. Madara will succeed in getting the 2 other tailed-beast, retrieve the body from the moon and VOILA! Epic final battle at the near end of the series. But Naruto will still be strong enough to fight against it, probably with the help of Sasuke. And of course Sasuke will die hence redeeming himself. In the end Sasuke would be regarded as a hero and a legend in the ninja world. Omg I just thought of this a few moments ago!

I'm thinkin' that's where this is going, too. The story kind of doesn't have anywhere else to go...if it wants to live up to the amount of drama that Kishimoto cranks out every other chapter.

A few hundred chapters back, I would definitely agree with Naruto staying in hiding for the war. He really got on my nerves at times--throwing his emotional baggage around like some sort of a crazy. I disagreed with the methods that he chose to deal with them, too (barking up Sakura's "depressed and I don't want you now" tree, chasing after his lunatic teammate, etc.). Calling Sakura out and finally taking a stance on Sasuke has made him more discerning and, overall, more mature. He deals with stuff differently now, which will allow him to (hopefully) control his emotions on the battlefield. I loved the last picture of the chapter, because Naruto finally looked like a young man. I used to hate this series because it seemed shallow and superficial, but because of moments like this, I've realized that this guy's incorporated so many connections and deep meaning into it.

When you go out to the "battlefield" in the real world (college, new friends, love life), you have to be ready to control your emotions, or you'll end up in a ditch. Even if your personality type is spontaneous, you must be able to contain yourself and know your limits. Sometimes I wish that other people's "Irukas" would keep them at home for a little while longer...But I digress.

Is Naruto disrespecting the wishes of his friends? Or is his escape really for the best? I'm not too sure if anyone from Konoha actually believed that they could keep Naruto from jumping into the fray.

[The Tax-Man]

Thoughts --Click here to view--

A few hundred chapters back, I would definitely agree with Naruto staying in hiding for the war. He really got on my nerves at times--throwing his emotional baggage around like some sort of a crazy. I disagreed with the methods that he chose to deal with them, too (barking up Sakura's "depressed and I don't want you now" tree, chasing after his lunatic teammate, etc.). Calling Sakura out and finally taking a stance on Sasuke has made him more discerning and, overall, more mature. He deals with stuff differently now, which will allow him to (hopefully) control his emotions on the battlefield. I loved the last picture of the chapter, because Naruto finally looked like a young man. I used to hate this series because it seemed shallow and superficial, but because of moments like this, I've realized that this guy's incorporated so many connections and deep meaning into it.

"..."

Is Naruto disrespecting the wishes of his friends? Or is his escape really for the best? I'm not too sure if anyone from Konoha actually believed that they could keep Naruto from jumping into the fray.

--Click here to view--

True. Naruto has grown a lot. He has really gotten beyond his age in terms of that. Sometimes we forget that he is sixteen. But I doubt he'd control his emotions for long. I don't think he would fight fodder ninja for long, if at all. He is bound to fight the main antagonists soon enough. So he'll probably lash out and go all rage in a fight because he will probably fight Kabuto or Sasuke.

It is for the best. We can honestly stop bashing Naruto on how he doesn't care about others' feelings or how he hogs all the main villains. That's his job. He's the protagonist. Moreover, he wants to protect them. That's why he wants to fight. It's not that he doesn't trust them. And they know that too. Naruto is doing it for everybody and he doesn't want anyone dead. It's not the place to take chances. I doubt that they ever thought that Naruto would be fooled for long or stay caged for long.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 18 April 2011 - 03:41 AM.

[merryGOflava]

--Click here to view--

True. Naruto has grown a lot. He has really gotten beyond his age in terms of that. Sometimes we forget that he is sixteen. But I doubt he'd control his emotions for long. I don't think he would fight fodder ninja for long, if at all. He is bound to fight the main antagonists soon enough. So he'll probably lash out and go all rage in a fight because he will probably fight Kabuto or Sasuke.

It is for the best. We can honestly stop bashing Naruto on how he doesn't care about others' feelings or how he hogs all the main villains. That's his job. He's the protagonist. Moreover, he wants to protect them. That's why he wants to fight. It's not that he doesn't trust them. And they know that too. Naruto is doing it for everybody and he doesn't want anyone dead. It's not the place to take chances. I doubt that they ever thought that Naruto would be fooled for long or stay caged for long.

yup, naruto might be mature, but naruto is still naruto. its his attitude and way of life that that doesn't change even if he is older.

[Codus N]

--Click here to view--

True. Naruto has grown a lot. He has really gotten beyond his age in terms of that. Sometimes we forget that he is sixteen. But I doubt he'd control his emotions for long. I don't think he would fight fodder ninja for long, if at all. He is bound to fight the main antagonists soon enough. So he'll probably lash out and go all rage in a fight because he will probably fight Kabuto or Sasuke.

It is for the best. We can honestly stop bashing Naruto on how he doesn't care about others' feelings or how he hogs all the main villains. That's his job. He's the protagonist. Moreover, he wants to protect them. That's why he wants to fight. It's not that he doesn't trust them. And they know that too. Naruto is doing it for everybody and he doesn't want anyone dead. It's not the place to take chances. I doubt that they ever thought that Naruto would be fooled for long or stay caged for long.

Shikamaru said it's about time they (Konoha 11, Konoha) stopped relying on Naruto. Naruto going out there is completely against what the Konoha 11 decided. They want to take matters into their own hands this time. Naruto, by going out there would be trampling over his friends' feelings. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a crack in their friendship thanks to this. In fact, I want it to happen. Naruto is, in a way being selfish and ignorant of people's feelings. He thinks he's doing it for everyone. But not everybody thinks so. I think, that Naruto will be thought of as a glory hog. Trying to play as a hero in the eyes. I believe that this will actually completely backfire on Naruto this time. Hopefully Shikamaru can wake him up from his ego trip.

[Zin]

Shikamaru said it's about time they (Konoha 11, Konoha) stopped relying on Naruto. Naruto going out there is completely against what the Konoha 11 decided. They want to take matters into their own hands this time. Naruto, by going out there would be trampling over his friends' feelings. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a crack in their friendship thanks to this. In fact, I want it to happen. Naruto is, in a way being selfish and ignorant of people's feelings. He thinks he's doing it for everyone. But not everybody thinks so. I think, that Naruto will be thought of as a glory hog. Trying to play as a hero in the eyes. I believe that this will actually completely backfire on Naruto this time. Hopefully Shikamaru can wake him up from his ego trip.

I agree that Naruto is immature, but not for the reasons you've stated. The fact of the matter is Naruto is so far above his friends in terms of power that it's laughable. Pain destroyed Konoha almost without even trying. Naruto was the only person that could go toe to toe with him. Honestly, Naruto's friends are the ones being arrogant. The belief that they'll ever be able fight anywhere near Sasuke's, Madara's, or Kabuto's level is just delusion of grandeur...

[Codus N]

Actually, they're not being arrogant. Of course they would know they wouldn't stand a chance against Madara/Pain/Itachi. But what they do know is that there are things they can do that Naruto doesn't need to do. The problem here is that Naruto is planning to do those things that the Konoha 11 can accomplish. If Naruto goes straight for Kabuto or any bigwigs, I'll be fine. But if he's not, well I think it makes look like he's trying to play hero.

[Zin]

Actually, they're not being arrogant. Of course they would know they wouldn't stand a chance against Madara/Pain/Itachi. But what they do know is that there are things they can do that Naruto doesn't need to do. The problem here is that Naruto is planning to do those things that the Konoha 11 can accomplish. If Naruto goes straight for Kabuto or any bigwigs, I'll be fine. But if he's not, well I think it makes look like he's trying to play hero.

The real issue here is that Naruto is, frankly, absurdly simple-minded. Friends. Danger. HULK SMASH. That's essentially his thought process. It isn't that Naruto is egotistical. It's that his thought process never reaches the level of complexity required to actually consider how his friends would feel about him entering the war when they're trying to protect him. It's unbelievably exasperating... I'd hoped Naruto would learn to be patient and use a little forethought as the story moved along but so much for that. Not trying to bash Naruto but I'm seriously tired of all this cookie cutter bull****.

Edited by Zin, 18 April 2011 - 05:21 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Hang on, does Naruto even know that his friends want to stop relying on him? That seems like the elephant in the room at this point in the discussion. Sure, his friends don't want to keep on relying on Naruto, and there is logic in Naruto rushing ahead to the fight without consideration of his friends' feelings, but is he even sure of what his friends' feelings are? We all know Naruto's matured quite a bit, but he's still dense. He's a shonen hero, they're usually not geniuses except in the middle of a fight. Especially in light of his decision towards Sasuke (killing him to end the cycle of hatred), seeing the destruction that Nagato caused that led to the deaths of millions of people, a desire to fulfill his master's, father's and fellow chosen one's desire to end war and suffering all culminates in Naruto rushing out to try and prevent the deaths of his friends. Naruto is not one to sit around while his friends fights even through his friends' protests, he's a man of action, he knows he may have the power to end this war and damn it, he's gonna do it!

Answer this question, would YOU (to no one specific), if you're as strong as Naruto, stand idly by while your friends fight a war dedicated to protecting you?