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QUOTE (Nate River @ May 21 2012, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He went after Danzou. That was not self-defense. And a claim of self-defense means you are justified in harming the person attacking you. That you have it doesn't say a thing about whether you are a good person.
Him killing them was a good thing because they were rotten people, but he wasn't doing it because it was the right thing to do. He's a "good guy" in those scenarios by virtue of not being the "bad guy." He's only good in the sense that they were worse people or in the wrong themselves when they tried to kill him.
Killing them really isn't oscillating to good.
Him killing them was a good thing because they were rotten people, but he wasn't doing it because it was the right thing to do. He's a "good guy" in those scenarios by virtue of not being the "bad guy." He's only good in the sense that they were worse people or in the wrong themselves when they tried to kill him.
Killing them really isn't oscillating to good.
Now that chapter 587 is out, NOW I will respond.
I didn't say he was the good guy. I said in those moments in a certain perspectives, Sasuke is the good guy. I am thinking how most people read this manga. Moment, by moment. It's stupid, but this is how people have been reading it.
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You're miss the point. I'm not comparing them. I am comparing fandom's willingness to accept their redemption.
I'm sorry that makes no sense right here. How can you compare the fanbase and not compare the characters linked? Why not just use any character besides Vegeta then to compare if you're just comparing the fanbase. What about Harry MacDougall? He was the villain in the series and got redeemed in the end. Didn't hear people complain about that.
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What difference does the order of their evolution make as to whether an audience should accept their redemption? I think time is a big reason why they won't.
It makes all the difference, dude. It's the difference between truly accepting their redemption, to accepting their redemption based on pity. If you redeem someone just because you feel sorry for them, then you didn't really redeem them or forgive them.
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Sasuke has been adamant as well. Almost from the moment of his introduction he has sought vengeance for his clan (and himself). That's still true. The only difference between now and then is the target, which changed when was provided new information about what they were slaughtered. I agree about changing tone (going from borderline psychotic to simply pissed off), but his objective has not changed and I don't think this fight will ultimately change it either. It can't without screwing up the story line.
Now that chapter 587 has come out, do you still think this is true? Do you still see this psychotic anger driven kid bent on pure revenge? Because at the moment, I don't. I see someone who is about to bend down and cry and ask for forgiveness.
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Specifically, if Itachi is able to redeem Sasuke or move him from his current objective then what right does Naruto have to continue his pursuit if Sasuke does not want to return? There is always the SOP regarding rogue ninja, but the series abandoned that as a significant reason long time ago. The reasons people are pursuing him are because of what he has done or what he seeks to do. They are specific to Sasuke the person not simply as his status as a rogue ninja.
Not if the entire time you are making Itachi do all the "heavy lifting." That's not Naruto redeeming anything because Naruto didn't show him the right course in the first place. Itachi did. Itachi is the one giving the talk-no-jutsu giving him advice and telling him what is right and wrong. "Changing and choosing your fate. Be true to yourself." This should have been saved for Naruto, not Itachi. Even you have to agree with that.
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None of those are true for me.
And yet you believe reason 1 is the primary reason. So you do believe it is true for you. Sorry, Nate, but you're contradicting yourself based right here.
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Your reason 1 is primarily why I'm confident that Sasuke will live. In addition, to succeeding where Jiriaya failed with Orochimaru, I think if Naruto only redeems him after he's delivered a fatal blow he'd call that a failure. It's my opinion that a Sasuke who only figures it out on the way out the door is still a Sasuke who died as a result if his hatred. The only difference between that and Orochimaru is Sasuke knows he was a dumbass when he dies. How is that saving him from it?
In the abstract, I have no issue with Naruto failing miserably. I just don't think it fits the story being told right now.
In the abstract, I have no issue with Naruto failing miserably. I just don't think it fits the story being told right now.
This is why you need the development with Naruto and him "growing up" as they say. If you gave the development where he accepted this truth that Sasuke might not necessarily be redeemed and that he accepts this reality as a possibility then you can have whatever ending you want for Sasuke without the fear of ruining the story. You said so yourself. The only reason why they don't want Sasuke to die is because they think Naruto is going to blame himself and feel like a failure and be a crybaby about it. If Kishi says that Naruto is not going to do this. If Naruto is not going to be an utter depressant if Sasuke cannot be saved at all, then no one will be afraid of Sasuke dying anymore and will accept any outcome easier.
And since you say you don't care either way, then this would be THE best outcome and Kishi would be free to make any ending he wants without being "forced" into an ending we know at least 2/3rds will hate.
The fact that the set up has become where Sasuke HAS to come back to the village. He HAS to be saved. He HAS to be redeemed is putting a huge crutch on the story where "No bad can happen to Sasuke in the end."
This whole "The latest generation must succeed the previous generation" is such a generalization and unrealistic logic. What do they mean by "succeeding?" The last generation has a Ninja world war....and now this gen. has one too. Is that succeeding where the past failed? If you think at it like that no, but the fact that all the ninja nations made peace to fight a common enemy. That is where they succeed. They manage to put aside their differences to fight a common enemy. That is where they succeed. They didn't prevent bad from happening, they just found a better way to handle it then blame each other for it.
So "succeeding" does not necessarily mean "No bad will happen." It just means that things will be different from the usual. If Sasuke self-sacrifices and dies protecting his former teammates and village, then Naruto will be successful. Naruto didn't promise he would bring Sasuke back "alive" did he? So there are many truths to this logic and people should accept a fact that just because Sasuke dies in a self-sacrifice does not mean Naruto is a failure.
I am not even saying the manga should end this way. I am saying this should remain a possibility. Sasuke being redeemed and living in the process should not be the only outcome that makes sense. I am tired of people refusing this idea and that this is the only way the manga can end.
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He needs to be redeemed because that is where all the major themes running throughout this story point. What's the point of following that with Nagato (as much as I hate that scene) only to see Kishimoto abandon it at Sasuke, unless Kishimoto decides he wants to change the themes and lessons he is trying to convey. It would be a way to convey something like "you can't save everyone" or "you can't help those who don't want it themselves," but that doesn't appear to be the goal.
I didn't know the goal was to make Sasuke the main character either, but apparently he is going down that route despite the manga being named "Naruto." Sasuke is A main character not THE main character. Let me ask you, what is wrong with the the ending where Sasuke gets redeemed, but dies in the end? What is so wrong with that ending? Like I kept saying, it is the Darth Vadar ending where he self-sacrifices to save the ones that deserve to be saved. That in turn would show he is redeemed because he put others before himself, but not escaping the punishment he deserves.
Sakura only going with naruto because Sasuke is dead? That can easily be solved by having Sakura development and have her change her heart towards Naruto for good with no questions. A simple solution to a complex problem. So why doesn't he just flesh Sakura out more?
Again, people want Sasuke to both be redeemed and to live at the end. Why? There is nothing wrong with the "self-sacrifice = redemption" ending. It has worked in many anime and manga before. Why not here? Harry MacDougall in Outlaw Star did it.
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I agree it actually hinders his development as a Hokage, but Kishimoto has already given the audience his answer: Naruto's statement about how can he be Hokage if he can't even save his friend. I was disappointed that two of the more obvious retorts to that were not brought up by anyone at the time (favoritism: would he do this for random ninja #56784 (to which Naruto would probably say yes, but which practically speaking is probably no); the amount of time and resources being dedicated to the search of one ninja). Sasuke turning into a world wide (and village wide) problem works out great because it creates a justification that would render both of those uncomfortable questions moot while at the same time taking Naruto's desire from a mission of selfishness to necessary protection.
It seems you major complaint is that other people have been neglected at the expense of his redemption not the redemption itself. My response is one: they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't see why Sasuke being redeemed requires thing you site be ignored or at least not developed to your satisfaction. Kishimoto may be writing it that way, but I don't think Sasuke being redeemed prohibits a lot of what you talk about. He hasn't done both, but it doesn't mean he couldn't have been done.
It seems you major complaint is that other people have been neglected at the expense of his redemption not the redemption itself. My response is one: they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't see why Sasuke being redeemed requires thing you site be ignored or at least not developed to your satisfaction. Kishimoto may be writing it that way, but I don't think Sasuke being redeemed prohibits a lot of what you talk about. He hasn't done both, but it doesn't mean he couldn't have been done.
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. Finally, someone gets it.
Here is the biggest responds I have to you. Can we have development that has nothing to do with Sasuke period? Can we have Naruto development as a character without Naruto bringing Sasuke into the picture and the answer is "No" unless Kishi becomes comfortable enough to have both Naruto and Sakura realize that saving Sasuke is not the only thing in the world that is important. Maybe he has already done it with Sakura, but with Naruto he is stuck with Sasuke on his mind and nothing and no one will deter him from it.
Here is another million dollar question: Is Naruto Sasuke's satellite character? From my view, the answer is yes. I believe it would be a lot more flexible if Sasuke was a part of the solution, but not the solution itself. Maybe this requires a little more explanation. Look at Sakura confession. Why did she do it? She did it for Naruto. Not for Sasuke. Sasuke was a part of it, but it wasn't the main reason why she did it. If this makes any sense let me know.
I would be much happier with this story if Sasuke was just part of the major solution and not the major solution. If Kishi continues to push for this idea that unless Sasuke is redeemed, then nothing can ever come to pass than that is the brick wall that prevents everything. No NaruHina, No NaruSaku, no Naruto the Hokage, No Sakura feelings, nothing. Nothing is more important than Sasuke redemption. Is that what this story is about?
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And the time you spend focusing on the development of NS growth doesn't do much to sway my belief that the objection to his redemption has strong roots in pairing wars.
Not NS growth. Naruto and Sakura growth. Big difference. I didn't say it HAS to be them that gets together. Even though I want it to be, Kishi could have development between Naruto and Hinata or Naruto and Ino or Hinata and Kiba. You're missing the point here. The more you focus on Sasuke, the less you focus on Naruto and HIS goals. If Naruto is supposed to redeem Sasuke, then let him do it. Stop with with whole Itachi crap and move it towards Naruto and lying to the audience by having Itachi say "You can handle it Naruto" meanwhile Itachi is using the talk-no-jutsu as we speak.
I am going to use this argument because it has more merit now. People would say that all of Team 7 are the main cast which means that Sasuke should get as much equal billing as Naruto, but So far most of the billing is going towards Sasuke and his damn redemption and the stupid Uchiha massacre. So in a reversal "Naruto is a main character just as much as Sasuke is. What about him? Sakura too. What about her?"
I could make the argument that Naruto is supposed to be THE main character, but I think we can throw this one out the window, right?
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As for me, I like Sasuke at this point, but I don't necessarily want him redeemed. I'm more interested in the tragedy surrounding his character (which is the part I think makes him interesting) than on whether he is redeemed. I simply think that it's necessary if Kishimoto plans on following through with his themes.
We already covered the tragedy around him. It's been done to death over and over again. How much more digging do we need? I thought the chapter when he laughed like a maniac was us hitting rock bottom, but I guess this wasn't enough. You want to dig even deeper into his psyche to do what? If not for redemption then for what? To understand him better? To know how he thinks? Again I thought we hit that several hundred chapters ago. Why do we need to keep digging? Dig anymore, we'll be burned by the lava.
I already know Sasuke enough. I already know he is a whiny baby who lost his family in a tragic way and I should feel sorry for him and Itachi did horrible things to him. I know Sasuke is a lost little boy who is crying for his mommy because he is more or less the last Uchiha left alive as we know of. I know he wants power to kill people and get revenge for his clan. We got that. We got that several times over. Non-stop. Every time Sasuke was screen, we got more into his psyche.
This is where I think Kishi is a fool. Kishi, if you hate people bashing Sakura, then flesh her out more. Make her out more than just a stupid fan girl whiner. Give her more character. You have plenty of room to do it no problem. If it is not about pairing wars, then this should be a piece of cake.
Cause I'll tell you I am more interested in Sakura than I am in Sasuke. Hell, I am more interested in Rock Lee than I am in Sasuke.
BTW, if the theme is that the newer generation will succeed where the previous generation failed, then NaruSaku is canon. You are basically saying that NaruSaku is canon based on the "theme" of the show. Obito loved Rin...failed. Jiraiya loved Tsunade.....failed. Naruto loves Sakura...succeed. Because Obito and Jiraiya failed.
And if I am wrong about all of this, I would be happy to be wrong. I would be happy to see anyone other than Sasuke get some development here.
