136 replies to this topic

[TheFirstEvil100]

Well what we all need to remember as well is that Naruto is a hypocrite since he does have a habit of demonize and look down on people for their actions, yet he gave Sasuke a freebie because he was his best friend.

[sushi.]

Well what we all need to remember as well is that Naruto is a hypocrite since he does have a habit of demonize and look down on people for their actions, yet he gave Sasuke a freebie because he was his best friend.

it doesn't have to be Sasuke, as long as Naruto can relate to someone, he is cool in his eyes no matter what. Has he ever demonized anyone?

Yyubie; I like Sasuke, that doesn't mean I think he's a good person or a good parent.

Edited by sushi., 19 September 2015 - 10:17 PM.

[FireFox]

it doesn't have to be Sasuke, as long as Naruto can relate to someone, he is cool in his eyes no matter what. Has he ever demonized anyone?

Yyubie; I like Sasuke, that doesn't mean I think he's a good person or a good parent.

Danzo , Oro  , Itachi (at the beginning) for hurting his precious Sauce . But no worries they're all the Coolest guys ever now !!! .

[sushi.]

Danzo , Oro  , Itachi (at the beginning) for hurting his precious Sauce . But no worries they're all the Coolest guys ever now !!! .

I don't think he demonized them more then they were demons, he just cuddled others.

[FireFox]

I don't think he demonized them more then they were demons, he just cuddled others.

True but still  he sure forgive them quite easily after he got his Sauce back . But that was the point to begin with , everyone gets a pardon no matter how much they were demonized by their actions right !?

 

Those who left are pardoned (Sauce & Oro) and the others are pretty much dead but still glorified  ( Itachi,Obito , etc ) . You can basically pull a Hitler and in the end you'll be pardoned and viewed as a hero/cool person bc you're either  Naruto's "best friend/lover"    or bc he can relate to you in some ridiculous way . Words like justice ,taking consequences for your actions doesn't exist . Why !? Bc every Villain was a misunderstood sick puppy  who was hurt so he can do whatever he likes who cares about the victims and their families right !? . Just thinking about this is making my brain hurts .   

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 19 September 2015 - 11:00 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

True but still  he sure forgive them quite easily after he got his Sauce back . But that was the point to begin with , everyone gets a pardon no matter how much they were demonized by their actions right !?

 

Those who left are pardoned (Sauce & Oro) and the others are pretty much dead but still glorified  ( Itachi,Obito , etc ) . You can basically pull a Hitler and in the end you'll be pardoned and viewed as a hero/cool person bc you're either  Naruto's "best friend/lover"    or bc he can relate to you in some ridiculous way . Words like justice ,taking consequences for your actions doesn't exist . Why !? Bc every Villain was a misunderstood sick puppy  who was hurt so he can do whatever he likes who cares about the victims and their families right !? . Just thinking about this is making my brain hurts .   

Very true I mean when you think about it and look at Gaidan it seems all Naruto ever cared for was Sasuke and only Sasuke is on Naruto's mind, and that just pisses me off so much as Naruto likes to live in his own little world and will just ignor all the problems that would come his way. Unless its to deal with Sasuke.

 

I mean with other shows comics films and games the Villains are either very insane or are out for money or just following orders, this is why Naruto as a story fails. I mean come on he think he can get peace all around the world, the fact is there is no such thing as peace.

 

I mean as what was said in a game I payed today. "There's no peace to be found, anywhere. And so we can only keep on hoping. Hoping for the illusion that we call peace."

[FireFox]

Very true I mean when you think about it and look at Gaidan it seems all Naruto ever cared for was Sasuke and only Sasuke is on Naruto's mind, and that just pisses me off so much as Naruto likes to live in his own little world and will just ignor all the problems that would come his way. Unless its to deal with Sasuke.

 

I mean with other shows comics films and games the Villains are either very insane or are out for money or just following orders, this is why Naruto as a story fails. I mean come on he think he can get peace all around the world, the fact is there is no such thing as peace.

 

I mean as what was said in a game I payed today. "There's no peace to be found, anywhere. And so we can only keep on hoping. Hoping for the illusion that we call peace."

Only Gaiden !? That has been happening since the beginning and what resulted in Naruto's character destruction . Sakura suffered from the same thing too , actually that happened to every character Sasuke came into contact seriously he's like a cancer (along with Boob - Sama). Every character had to be downplayed/.regressed  by praising him for things that had no foundation or some other ridiculous bs in order for him to shine . And that's how you destroy your MC  and "Hero"  of your story .  

 

Yeah I know what you mean .

[rocci]

@narutofirefox
He love his dead family so he should love his own family.

Kishi need to show contrast between sasuke (a winner) and naruto (a loser) in order to emphasize their rivalry. And even then kishi still do a bad job that make sasuke more mc than the manga own mc. In other word, kishi doesn't make them equal than it should be.

Edited by rocci, 20 September 2015 - 04:35 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Naruto is still the worse father.

You know why? Because he should know better.

You think not being there for your child is the worse thing a father can do? My father wasn't apart of my life for the first 26 years. Just me, my brother, and my mom. In the end we didn't really need him and we did just fine without him.

You know what is worse than a father who isn't there? A father who is there, but is abusive, oblivious, and demeaning. A father who, despite being in the same room, won't even interact with his kids unless they are acting up. I never did see Sasuke as a good father and considering what he has done to his "wife." Salad got off easy. Meanwhile, Naruto hits bolt, tells him to suck it up, and refuses to even spend a moment with him that when all Bolt wants is his father to be "there."

The worst part about all of this is...when Bolt acts up saying he wishes his father was home more....everyone blames Bolt and calls him a spoiled brat.

So again, why are you all keep talking about "responsibility" when people refuse to blame Sasuke or Naruto for their problems? Bolt is acting up because Naruto refuses to spend time with him and everyone calls him a spoiled brat. "naruto is so busy as Hokage. He can't see how his father works hard just for him." Yeah right. Meanwhile I watch movies about boys being upset because despite being wealthy, they rather have their parents home and be broke. Gee, wasn't this brought up in part 2 when Sakura said  how Naruto was lucky he had no parents because he was basically free to do whatever? Sasuke called her very annoying because she was so stupid to the reality that a parent's love is important to a child. But if Bolt says his father doesn't love him because he is not there...well, Bolt is just being a brat. *facepal*

The whole fandom is full of hypocrites and the rules keep changing either for love or hatred of certain characters. Still Naruto is the worse father because, unlike Sasuke, he should know better.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 September 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Initially, Sasuke did want to resurrect the clan, as in actually physically bring it back (but it was clearly a very, very, very distant second to gaining power and killing Itachi), The whole "restoring the Clan's 'honor'" thing didn't come up until after Sasuke learned the "truth" from Obito.
 

Naruto is still the worse father.

You know why? Because he should know better.

You think not being there for your child is the worse thing a father can do? My father wasn't apart of my life for the first 26 years. Just me, my brother, and my mom. In the end we didn't really need him and we did just fine without him.

You know what is worse than a father who isn't there? A father who is there, but is abusive, oblivious, and demeaning. A father who, despite being in the same room, won't even interact with his kids unless they are acting up. I never did see Sasuke as a good father and considering what he has done to his "wife." Salad got off easy. Meanwhile, Naruto hits bolt, tells him to suck it up, and refuses to even spend a moment with him that when all Bolt wants is his father to be "there."

The worst part about all of this is...when Bolt acts up saying he wishes his father was home more....everyone blames Bolt and calls him a spoiled brat.

So again, why are you all keep talking about "responsibility" when people refuse to blame Sasuke or Naruto for their problems? Bolt is acting up because Naruto refuses to spend time with him and everyone calls him a spoiled brat. "naruto is so busy as Hokage. He can't see how his father works hard just for him." Yeah right. Meanwhile I watch movies about boys being upset because despite being wealthy, they rather have their parents home and be broke. Gee, wasn't this brought up in part 2 when Sakura said  how Naruto was lucky he had no parents because he was basically free to do whatever? Sasuke called her very annoying because she was so stupid to the reality that a parent's love is important to a child. But if Bolt says his father doesn't love him because he is not there...well, Bolt is just being a brat. *facepal*

The whole fandom is full of hypocrites and the rules keep changing either for love or hatred of certain characters. Still Naruto is the worse father because, unlike Sasuke, he should know better.

Yeah, when you look at Sasuke throughout the whole story, and thought about him or Naruto being parents, any logical person would never expect Sasuke to be a good father. Maybe not horrible, but certainly not the first or even second or third choice either, so when you see him in Gaiden, can anyone honestly say it's surprising to see him turn out this way? If you have any brains, then no, he's exactly as what one would expect after following his path.

When you saw Naruto much of the time, you would expect him to be someone who would do everything in his power to ensure that his child(ren) would be happy, to give them everything that he didn't have throughout his childhood while whoever the wife was (most likely Sakura) would be there to keep him balanced, to keep him from being too much just the "best friend" and not enough "responsible father". The way Naruto turns out, as opposed to Sasuke, is quite surprising (at least before The Last came out) and unexpected. As brought up a bunch of times here, the Naruto we originally knew would have most likely just laughed off Boruto vandalizing the monument and probably even help him while they're being yelled at by Sakura or whoever.

[FireFox]

@narutofirefox
He love his dead family so he should love his own family.

Kishi need to show contrast between sasuke (a winner) and naruto (a loser) in order to emphasize their rivalry. And even then kishi still do a bad job that make sasuke more mc than the manga own mc. In other word, kishi doesn't make them equal than it should be.

Like I said it doesn't necessarily needs to mean that  bc his mentality is different twisted and damaged , he didn't care about others but himself he doesn't know how . I already gave the explanation why , the author can sugarcoat it as much as he wants that he does but as we see he ultimately fails bc his character wasn't about that  and it twisted to massive proportions with zero consistency .

 

You usually show the MC beating his rival in the end by sheer will and power not always put them on equal ground and overglorify  the rival in every turn to the point of giving him the Hero's status and reduce/regress the real one . But that's what you get when the kittening author is the biggest fangirl for him there is . 

Initially, Sasuke did want to resurrect the clan, as in actually physically bring it back (but it was clearly a very, very, very distant second to gaining power and killing Itachi), The whole "restoring the Clan's 'honor'" thing didn't come up until after Sasuke learned the "truth" from Obito.

By resurrect you mean bringing the dead ones (his family and all ) right !? If so that could also been the case bc he did kind of mentioned that (in the panel a brought previously) but it was never the case of him starting a new . As for the honor thing I don't think we can look at it like that either as an after thought , when Itachi was pushing him for that from the very beginning with playing mind games with him , you can say the issue of reviving the clan (by that panel in P1) was introduced there and cleared up later  bc the means for how he's gonna do it were never established , so you get the answer much later (When Kishimoto still had a bit of brain and Yahagi by his side) and it works like that from a story/writing perspective. 

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 20 September 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Not literally resurrect in that sense, but as in actually having children and such (of course, that doesn't mean "love" would necessarily be involved). But like I said, it was a very, very, very distant second behind gaining power and killing Itachi. Funny thing being that putting power and Itachi first meant a good possibility that he would die, thus he would never get the chance.

[FireFox]

Not literally resurrect in that sense, but as in actually having children and such (of course, that doesn't mean "love" would necessarily be involved). But like I said, it was a very, very, very distant second behind gaining power and killing Itachi. Funny thing being that putting power and Itachi first meant a good possibility that he would die, thus he would never get the chance.

But in that case it makes no sense whatsoever . A 13 year old thinking of getting in bed with bunch of girls is ridiculous as it is (though this is Kishi but still) not to mention it defies his character completely  who was completely asexual bc love or not he had zero aspiration for any girl otherwise it makes no sens him refusing every single one of them . Its OOC  Its a major contradiction if that was the case and you can't just view those scenes as something separately when there's clear evidence that those scenes are connected . Doing that is no different then retconing something that was foreshadowed much like this ending .

 

That's true but I think he was literary asking for death when he was asking Itachi  "just why...why didn't you killed me !? . I got the impression that he wished for death too . This also doesn't align that he wanted that kind of "resurection" but not like it matters anymore. 

[Tiller]

True but still  he sure forgive them quite easily after he got his Sauce back . But that was the point to begin with , everyone gets a pardon no matter how much they were demonized by their actions right !?

 

Those who left are pardoned (Sauce & Oro) and the others are pretty much dead but still glorified  ( Itachi,Obito , etc ) . You can basically pull a Hitler and in the end you'll be pardoned and viewed as a hero/cool person bc you're either  Naruto's "best friend/lover"    or bc he can relate to you in some ridiculous way . Words like justice ,taking consequences for your actions doesn't exist . Why !? Bc every Villain was a misunderstood sick puppy  who was hurt so he can do whatever he likes who cares about the victims and their families right !? . Just thinking about this is making my brain hurts .   

 

It's one of the major problems with the story. And it all comes to a head other the fact that Kishimoto tried to deal with "big" issues, but didn't have the talent to do it. Even in stories where we have a villain protagonist, that attempts to show why they have become an evil douchebag, it doesn't end with them being REWARDED for being evil. Kishimoto on the other hand does. Even Madara is shown to look at in pity despite the fact that he put into motion the major events the ruined the lives of millions of people. It was themes that Kishimoto simply was not talented enough to address, which is why he feel back on that "Sasuke is just cool" angel.

 

Sasuke is "pure" he doesn't see the world in the realm of good and evil......

 

Well that's just kitten insane. Selfishly being willing to kill millions in order to reach your goals, and later enslave the entire world population doesn't suddenly become ok just because Sasuke's drive was but into action because of his "tragic" backstory. There is nothing pure about it, Sasuke isn't in some "gray" area that people don't understand.  Just because he isn't laughing maniacally when he talks about taking over the world and enslaving mankind for his own desires, he isn't somehow "good". You can't even call him a well intention extremist since that entire arc was just thrown in at the end to make Naruto fight Sasuke without Sasuke purely just being an asshat. 

 

How this story was changed to attempt to make Sasuke and what he did as "good" is just mind boggling. The only good thing about it is that it shows other creators what not to do.

[Atheck]

I'm of the opinion that Sasuke's actions could be justified to a certain degree up until Itachi's demise. His days at being the helm of Hebi were disputably the only ones where he may have been deemed "neutral" since he actively chose to remain outside the affairs of the villages. Had his personal demons and need for vengeance not clouded his judgement, I may have argued that he should have been allowed to remain independent from Konoha. Under any other circumstances they would be obligated to assassinate him. However, you could loosely attribute the death of his family to the political machinations of the government. One could argue that their death was necessary because of their intention of starting a civil war. Still, there's two sides to the story. Annihilating the Uchiha Clan may have helped avert possible conflict both internally and with other countries, but it left a child orphaned with no one to take care of him and deep emotional scars left by his brother who must have been traumtised in his own right in having to kill his own family for Konoha. 

 

So while I don't believe a defence can be made to justify mass murder of civilians or his worldwide revolution, wanting to be separate from the institution that fostered his tragedy should be permissible, in my opinion. Sasuke could renounce his citizenship and become a wanderer alongside Hebi. Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi might object to the idea at first, especially Naruto who acts under the impression that his "best friend" should be kissing the ground of the people who tried to "save" him, but hopefully they would recognise that the situation isn't as black and white like they initially thought and respect Sasuke's decision of not wanting to serve or live under the government that is the root for many of his woes. 

[James S Cassidy]

 

It's one of the major problems with the story. And it all comes to a head other the fact that Kishimoto tried to deal with "big" issues, but didn't have the talent to do it. Even in stories where we have a villain protagonist, that attempts to show why they have become an evil douchebag, it doesn't end with them being REWARDED for being evil. Kishimoto on the other hand does. Even Madara is shown to look at in pity despite the fact that he put into motion the major events the ruined the lives of millions of people. It was themes that Kishimoto simply was not talented enough to address, which is why he feel back on that "Sasuke is just cool" angel.

 

Sasuke is "pure" he doesn't see the world in the realm of good and evil......

 

Well that's just kitten insane. Selfishly being willing to kill millions in order to reach your goals, and later enslave the entire world population doesn't suddenly become ok just because Sasuke's drive was but into action because of his "tragic" backstory. There is nothing pure about it, Sasuke isn't in some "gray" area that people don't understand.  Just because he isn't laughing maniacally when he talks about taking over the world and enslaving mankind for his own desires, he isn't somehow "good". You can't even call him a well intention extremist since that entire arc was just thrown in at the end to make Naruto fight Sasuke without Sasuke purely just being an asshat. 

 

How this story was changed to attempt to make Sasuke and what he did as "good" is just mind boggling. The only good thing about it is that it shows other creators what not to do.

Exactly and to put it simply, Kishimoto could let Sasuke walk up to that line of "being evil," but never actually cross it. Whenever there was a chance for Sasuke to truly turn down that path....oh look Deus Ex Machina Itachi just so happens to randomly cross his path and change everything.

In reality, Naruto didn't really do anything. Did Naruto achieve peace? No, technically Obito was the one who did it. Yeah, he started a Fourth Shinobi War, but it was the means to end all conflict because after that no one argued. Did Naruto change Sasuke? No, it was technically his brother Itachi who changed him each and every time. Yes, it makes sense why only Itachi got to Sasuke, but to credit Naruto for it is just a huge lie.
 

 

Initially, Sasuke did want to resurrect the clan, as in actually physically bring it back (but it was clearly a very, very, very distant second to gaining power and killing Itachi), The whole "restoring the Clan's 'honor'" thing didn't come up until after Sasuke learned the "truth" from Obito.
 

Yeah, when you look at Sasuke throughout the whole story, and thought about him or Naruto being parents, any logical person would never expect Sasuke to be a good father. Maybe not horrible, but certainly not the first or even second or third choice either, so when you see him in Gaiden, can anyone honestly say it's surprising to see him turn out this way? If you have any brains, then no, he's exactly as what one would expect after following his path.

When you saw Naruto much of the time, you would expect him to be someone who would do everything in his power to ensure that his child(ren) would be happy, to give them everything that he didn't have throughout his childhood while whoever the wife was (most likely Sakura) would be there to keep him balanced, to keep him from being too much just the "best friend" and not enough "responsible father". The way Naruto turns out, as opposed to Sasuke, is quite surprising (at least before The Last came out) and unexpected. As brought up a bunch of times here, the Naruto we originally knew would have most likely just laughed off Boruto vandalizing the monument and probably even help him while they're being yelled at by Sakura or whoever.

 

Again, exactly. We thought of Naruto was going to grow up and be a fun father because it was part of his personality. He was always a fun loving hyperactive ninja....now, he is just boring ass boring man. As you said, I am not surprised by Sasuke behavior in leaving for 12-15 years and not even talking to his family. He didn't really care about anyone except for maybe Naruto and it really didn't bother him to leave Konoha. Sasuke is a man who is basically indifferent to things he feels are of no importance. (Sakura, Salad, the rest of the ninja world save for Naruto.)

I never expected him to hold a family bond close or even cherish it. So Sasuke is actually behaving as expected and we know Sakura has no impact on his personality whatsoever.

Naruto on the other hand....this was a guy who preached how lives were important, hatred should stop, and having bonds with people are important. He couldn't share that bond with his son? Why? That is the most surprising part. The only thing Naruto did that didn;t surprise me was him dropping everything because his boyfriend best friend Sasuke sent a message.

Everything feels so backwards. I would have been more surprised if Sasuke actually was a great father.

Know what to expect. If I met a person who doesn't like peanut butter, I would not expect them to work at a peanut butter factory. It would be more surprising if they did.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 September 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Only Gaiden !? That has been happening since the beginning and what resulted in Naruto's character destruction . Sakura suffered from the same thing too , actually that happened to every character Sasuke came into contact seriously he's like a cancer (along with Boob - Sama). Every character had to be downplayed/.regressed  by praising him for things that had no foundation or some other ridiculous bs in order for him to shine . And that's how you destroy your MC  and "Hero"  of your story .  

 

Yeah I know what you mean .

Myt bad on that part was very tired when I added it but yeah whole story Naruto was all about Sasuke, and they all had to be downplayed or Kishi would cry that Sasuke was not getting all he should be getting, if that makes sense but lest face it this story stopped making sense a long time ago. But he is cancer only it does not kill him it kills all the others around him and makes the worse, for readers well pro enders are kittening stupid as kitten. (Boob-sama lol that's a good one and true as well.) but yeah I see your point I mean no other story does this, which makes me wonder why? Why does Kishi like the Uchiha the most what makes them so kittening good while the others are all just brushed away like nothing.

 

Yeah I mean say what you want about Kojima, Toriyama, Tolkien and many more are true story tellers and know what it is to make a good story that the fans will remember.

[Namikaze Clan]

Sasuke is a better father than Naruto because "he doesn't know better"? Oh please, that's the worst excuse you can make for him. Sasuke didn't need a role model to know how to be a decent father.

[sushi.]

Sasuke is a better father than Naruto because "he doesn't know better"? Oh please, that's the worst excuse you can make for him. Sasuke didn't need a role model to know how to be a decent father.

Yea , the disappointment may be bigger with Naruto as the expectations were higher, but that's beside the point. Sasuke may be more understandably a bad father, but I don't see how that changes the situation. Him having a reason to be a bad father doesn't make him better or worse.

[Narufan85]

Yea , the disappointment may be bigger with Naruto as the expectations were higher, but that's beside the point. Sasuke may be more understandably a bad father, but I don't see how that changes the situation. Him having a reason to be a bad father doesn't make him better or worse.

 

I agree that "Naruto should know better" is a terrible rationale. Why should he know better? Sasuke is the one who actually had parents to observe and learn from.