138 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Well just remember Naruto is an excitable guy and does have quite an ego but He would never become like Madara be cause he values his friends and doesn't want to lose them

[James S Cassidy]

I want to comment on a few things here.

First off, Kabuto cannot summon Minato because "in chapter 117 of the manga(not the anime), when Orochimaru first performs the technique, he tries to summon a third coffin. When the coffin is not summoned, he comments on its failure. Years later, in chapter 520, Kabuto explains that Orochimaru's attempt to summon the Fourth Hokage had failed due to his soul not residing in the "pure world"" (quote from wikipedia)

Second, even if Itachi killed kabuto, it won't end the Edo Tensei. I believe Kabuto said that even killing the user won't end the Jutsu.

Third, whether you think Itachi is a good guy or bad guy he does have one of the most tragic stories in the series. His actions are not good enough to be a goiod guy, but he is not totally a bad guy either because there is reason why he did what he did. Either way he is neither a good or bad guy.

[Anguyen92]

Third, whether you think Itachi is a good guy or bad guy he does have one of the most tragic stories in the series. His actions are not good enough to be a goiod guy, but he is not totally a bad guy either because there is reason why he did what he did. Either way he is neither a good or bad guy.

So, by that logic of Itachi not being a good or bad guy, he is an anti-hero right? Hmmmm, no wonder I could get behind this guy more than Sasuke, who should have been playing the anithero role, the whole time, as oppose of being a straight-up villain later in the story.

Edited by Anguyen92, 27 August 2011 - 12:12 AM.

[harry4e]

he knew that Naruto wouldn't be able to make the Kyuubi cooperate like Hachibi does, so he made something similar to compensate

I don't know where your idea that it's Kushina doing the Rasengan came from though O.o

My idea came from Gaara's expression, it didn't make sense for him to be so surprised about seeing Naruto, I'd assumed that like the slug on Naruto keeping him informed, Gaara also had a means to stay intouch with head-office and would have known about Naruto joining the battle and mastering the Kyuubi Chakra, so when I saw the facial expression and then the massive Rasengan held by the chakra cloak, along with Kabutomaru saying it's time to unleash his trump card, I thought it might be Kushina.....ofcourse I also realised that is could just be Naruto and Gaara was too busy with the Kage battles to stay in touch with headoffice and didn't know about Naruto joining the battle or him mastering the Kyuubi chakra, so i'm going to keep an open mind.

[tricksie]

Love all the good thoughts on Itachi. The different perspectives help illuminate his character.

I think at some level, Itachi taught Sasuke another (unwelcome) lesson. Itachi wiped out the entire clan (man, woman, and child) instead of just killing the leaders. As long as Itachi took the blame as a renegade Akatsuki, the Uchiha clan would have targeted him, not the Leaf. But Itachi did it anyways. Now we see Sasuke, who has killed Danzo, has (justified) hatred for the Leaf elders. Sasuke decides that he needs to wipe out every Leaf villager (man, woman, and child), no matter how small their involvement with the Uchiha massacre.

That's an irony I hadn't thought of. That Itachi tried to mold Sasuke's life into the savior with this horrible catalyst. But instead, Sasuke has become just like him (or the villain he was asked to be).

@codus, you're right, it's easy to forget he's supposed to be 13. Imo, he's drawn as late teens, at least. Thirteen is still a kid, emotionally and physically. But Itachi was illustrated as an adult. So his age difference with Sasuke is only five years? Hmmm...unfortunately for me this is where the imagery contradicts the story. A 13yo Itachi should have looked more like Part 1 Sasuke. Not a full grown man. That's one of the confusing things when thinking about Itachi's motives. A 13yo wouldn't be emotionally able to handle that burden, no matter how long he's been a child-soldier. But the man that Itachi looks like in those scenes should be.

More thoughts, esp, on TerrorKing and Nate's posts, but I'll have to write later.

[Super Boom]

First off, Kabuto cannot summon Minato because "in chapter 117 of the manga(not the anime), when Orochimaru first performs the technique, he tries to summon a third coffin. When the coffin is not summoned, he comments on its failure. Years later, in chapter 520, Kabuto explains that Orochimaru's attempt to summon the Fourth Hokage had failed due to his soul not residing in the "pure world"" (quote from wikipedia)

That's basically the gist of it, though I kind of find hard to believe Kishi planned out the technicalities of the Edo Tensei Technique all the way back in 117. The way I kind of saw it, he wrote the fight as if the Third Hokage was the one who stopped the technique (here and here). It was only until recently in 520, 400+ chapters later, where he claims the technique failed because Minato wasn't in the Pure World. I guess I just doubt that Kishi had the rules for the technique planned out back then, considering he went through the trouble of making it look like the Third stopped it. But maybe he did, I guess I'm not sure.

Second, even if Itachi killed kabuto, it won't end the Edo Tensei. I believe Kabuto said that even killing the user won't end the Jutsu.

That's true, but he also said this. When I first read that line, I assumed it would somehow tie in to Sasuke's redemption, since only a Sharingan user can end the Edo Tensei technique. But now that I think about it, if Itachi is going to fight Kabuto right now, it makes perfect sense for the technique to end that way. Though, like I said earlier, I doubt Itachi's gonna stop the technique until all the individual fights are conveniently finished, since I assume Kishi's gonna drag this thing out as long he can.

[ciardha]

@codus, you're right, it's easy to forget he's supposed to be 13. Imo, he's drawn as late teens, at least. Thirteen is still a kid, emotionally and physically. But Itachi was illustrated as an adult. So his age difference with Sasuke is only five years? Hmmm...unfortunately for me this is where the imagery contradicts the story. A 13yo Itachi should have looked more like Part 1 Sasuke. Not a full grown man. That's one of the confusing things when thinking about Itachi's motives. A 13yo wouldn't be emotionally able to handle that burden, no matter how long he's been a child-soldier. But the man that Itachi looks like in those scenes should be.

Kishimoto wasn't as consistent in portraying physical maturity of characters in part 1 as he is in part 2. Itachi was probably a bit closer to 14 than 13- he didn't become ANBU until after he had already turned 13, and 6 months+ went by after that before the massacre. But still, he should have looked more like Neiji at the end of part 1 than Sasuke in part 2. More part 1 physical inconsistancies- the Sound ninja in part 1 were almost all 14 but some of the guys look like late teens. Kabuto was an exception- he was 20 at the end of part 1, yet he looked possibly as young as 15-16. Kabuto is actually two years older than Itachi. (The ages are in the databooks.)

[James S Cassidy]

So, by that logic of Itachi not being a good or bad guy, he is an anti-hero right? Hmmmm, no wonder I could get behind this guy more than Sasuke, who should have been playing the anithero role, the whole time, as oppose of being a straight-up villain later in the story.

Pretty much. He did wrong things for the right reasons. He did what he thought he had to do and no doubt he could have easily joined the the coup. Sasuke was his only mistake and it looks like he even regrets that. I know some people think that Itachi is the bad guy, but to play devil's advocate here...if the village played nice in the first place and tried reason instead of force then it probably would not have the problem in the first place then you would not have needed the job done.

So to me, he is that Anti-hero that took the blame and did bad things so the world could be a little safer.

That's basically the gist of it, though I kind of find hard to believe Kishi planned out the technicalities of the Edo Tensei Technique all the way back in 117. The way I kind of saw it, he wrote the fight as if the Third Hokage was the one who stopped the technique (here and here). It was only until recently in 520, 400+ chapters later, where he claims the technique failed because Minato wasn't in the Pure World. I guess I just doubt that Kishi had the rules for the technique planned out back then, considering he went through the trouble of making it look like the Third stopped it. But maybe he did, I guess I'm not sure.

You never know. I don't think Kishi would just make up a technique and not provide some details to it or use for later. Especially one that is important to the series. There are alot of Forbidden jutsu that have yet to be revealed and I have to wonder how much Kishi has written in his own personal data book.

I rather go with a more recent word of mouth from Kabuto, because even if he didn't plan it out early, then why didn't Kabuto summon the fourth when we know he could have easily? We also know Kabuto has perfected the technique so we know no screw ups will occur. Perhaps the view of the Third preventing the 4th coming was a miss direction and the third didn't really do anything. He only tried and when it didn't work he felt he was the one who stopped it.

Chapter 117 was a long time ago written, so maybe Kishi edited the technique and is going by these new rules. There is possibly enough leeway for him to edit the technique without harming the canon. Either way, no matter how you look at it, I don't think Kabuto can bring back Minato.

Even Kabuto said he can't.
http://www.mangaread...t/naruto/520/11

He can bring back Jiraiya or he is at least trying to.

That's true, but he also said this. When I first read that line, I assumed it would somehow tie in to Sasuke's redemption, since only a Sharingan user can end the Edo Tensei technique. But now that I think about it, if Itachi is going to fight Kabuto right now, it makes perfect sense for the technique to end that way. Though, like I said earlier, I doubt Itachi's gonna stop the technique until all the individual fights are conveniently finished, since I assume Kishi's gonna drag this thing out as long he can.

Possibly, but I doubt Kabuto will fall for the Sharingan since he and Orochimaru knew how power the eyes could be. So, quite possibly he has his fields covered. I wonder if Kabuto could end the technique on Itachi after he has been freed from control. Even if he can't control Itachi doesn't mean he can't just end the jutsu. So it's a two way street on this on. This is not really specified.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 August 2011 - 03:11 AM.

[Super Boom]

You never know. I don't think Kishi would just make up a technique and not provide some details to it or use for later. Especially one that is important to the series. There are alot of Forbidden jutsu that have yet to be revealed and I have to wonder how much Kishi has written in his own personal data book.

I rather go with a more recent word of mouth from Kabuto, because even if he didn't plan it out early, then why didn't Kabuto summon the fourth when we know he could have easily? We also know Kabuto has perfected the technique so we know no screw ups will occur. Perhaps the view of the Third preventing the 4th coming was a miss direction and the third didn't really do anything. He only tried and when it didn't work he felt he was the one who stopped it.

Chapter 117 was a long time ago written, so maybe Kishi edited the technique and is going by these new rules. There is possibly enough leeway for him to edit the technique without harming the canon. Either way, no matter how you look at it, I don't think Kabuto can bring back Minato.

Even Kabuto said he can't.
http://www.mangaread...t/naruto/520/11

I guess I didn't really make myself clear, sorry about that.

I agree with you that it's doubtful Minato can be brought back, at least with the Edo Tensei technique. Even if Kishi was ret-conning with that scene (I suppose that's not the right word, but something in that vein), the more recent information still takes precedence. I guess I was going off on a tangent on why I didn't care for the use of 117 as evidence of this jutsu technicality, since it was written 7/8 years ago, and I didn't really see any evidence at the time that it would fail due to any other reason than the Third's intervention. But maybe he did plan it out that way, and just decided not to elaborate on it for 400+ chapters. *shrug*

I'm more leaning towards the bolded part of your statement. But I suppose that means all Kishi needs is another technicality to throw in there, and he can easily bring Minato back. Maybe something like, "To use the Hiraishin technique you have to put part of your soul in the Pure World" or "By impregnating a Jinchuriki you must sacrifice part of your soul" or something convenient to the story like that. I hope that's not the case, but there's always that possibility. Though I guess there's a difference between adding loopholes to 7/8 year old material and stuff that's not even a year old yet.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 27 August 2011 - 03:43 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I guess I didn't really make myself clear, sorry about that.

No, I understood completely. I just worded what I said wrong, so I didn't make myself clear enough. That was my bad. I was just reiterating to point out that there are three possible choices, but the question I have is what exactly did Third Hokage try to do to prevent the third coffin? All he did was stand there and I think was throw shuriken at the other two coffins. It didn't stop the other two, so how would have stopped the third? I mean, we don't even know if it worked or not. He only assumed it did. You think if the third really did do it, Orochimaru would have a different reaction than a Nonchalant "Oh well, it didn't work."

I would like to see what a failed Edo Tensei would produce, would the coffin come up and not retain the essence, or would it not even appear at all.

Regardless, like I said, even Kishimoto wrote that Kabuto can't bring the original Hokage's back because their souls are stuck in the death god.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 August 2011 - 12:56 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

No, I understood completely. I just worded what I said wrong, so I didn't make myself clear enough. That was my bad. I was just reiterating to point out that there are three possible choices, but the question I have is what exactly did Third Hokage try to do to prevent the third coffin? All he did was stand there and I think was throw shuriken at the other two coffins. It didn't stop the other two, so how would have stopped the third? I mean, we don't even know if it worked or not. He only assumed it did. You think if the third really did do it, Orochimaru would have a different reaction than a Nonchalant "Oh well, it didn't work."

I would like to see what a failed Edo Tensei would produce, would the coffin come up and not retain the essence, or would it not even appear at all.

Regardless, like I said, even Kishimoto wrote that Kabuto can't bring the original Hokage's back because their souls are stuck in the death god.

For some reason, I suddenly got the image of Orochimaru or Kabutomaru facing the Truth from FMA after their deaths.... XD
HUMAN TRANSMUTATION! Probably because I got it in me that a failed Edo Tensei would produce a mass of blobby flesh like in FMAB...

[naruto-z]

I guess for me, the question isn't whether it's Minato or not. I just find it hard to believe and a bit too obvious if the hidden Rasengan user is just Naruto. It just seems too boring for Kishimoto to do that. I guess I have trouble agreeing with just that and I'm hoping Kishimoto has something big planned for that

[harry4e]

I guess for me, the question isn't whether it's Minato or not. I just find it hard to believe and a bit too obvious if the hidden Rasengan user is just Naruto. It just seems too boring for Kishimoto to do that. I guess I have trouble agreeing with just that and I'm hoping Kishimoto has something big planned for that

That's why I keep saying it might be Kushina, Just because we never saw her use the Rasengan doesn't mean she doesn't know, we didn't know Kakashi knew the move until it came time to teach Naruto the wind element but turned out he knew but prefered to use Chidori for some reason. I would bet 100% cert that Kushina knew the Rasengan, if Minato taught his master and student, he'd teach the women who taught him the Uzumaki fuinjutsu secrets, also as I mentioned before the Rasengan and the Beast Bomb as in theory very similar to produce so who is to say Minato didn't learn the move after learning about the Bijuu bomb from Kushina.

http://mangastream.c...uto/48046013/18 Besides look at that hand, the claw like nails and it's obviously covered with the Bijuu Chakra cloak, so it can't be Minato, it's most likely Naruto which makes me wonder why the suspense, or Kushina, who wasn't sealed insider the Shinigami's stomach like Minato.

Edit: Damn it I just realised it isn't Gaara that's shouting at in shock, it's the Third Tsuchikage, the person who has never seen Naruto and has just witnessed a Rasengan armed Yellow Flash, the man who almost single-handedly defeated his forces. D'oh, The Tsuchikage thinks it's the Fourth Hokage, not Naruto.

Edited by harry4e, 27 August 2011 - 06:31 PM.

[Anguyen92]

That's why I keep saying it might be Kushina, Just because we never saw her use the Rasengan doesn't mean she doesn't know, we didn't know Kakashi knew the move until it came time to teach Naruto the wind element but turned out he knew but prefered to use Chidori for some reason.

Oh, f, I forgot he also knows the move as well, btw, can anyone inform me on where Kakashi is in the war? I keep forgetting.

Edited by Anguyen92, 27 August 2011 - 06:38 PM.

[harry4e]

Oh, f, I forgot he also knows the move as well, btw, can anyone inform me on where Kakashi is in the war? I keep forgetting.

Well he went all out with Sharingan so probably in a hospital bed for the next week from Chakra exhaustion...lol We don't know where he is at the moment, after his fight with Zabuza and the seven Swordmen, with Sakura at the medical tent at a later point, it would suggest that battle is over, so we don't know what he is doing now.

[naruto-z]

That's why I keep saying it might be Kushina, Just because we never saw her use the Rasengan doesn't mean she doesn't know, we didn't know Kakashi knew the move until it came time to teach Naruto the wind element but turned out he knew but prefered to use Chidori for some reason. I would bet 100% cert that Kushina knew the Rasengan, if Minato taught his master and student, he'd teach the women who taught him the Uzumaki fuinjutsu secrets, also as I mentioned before the Rasengan and the Beast Bomb as in theory very similar to produce so who is to say Minato didn't learn the move after learning about the Bijuu bomb from Kushina.

http://mangastream.c...uto/48046013/18 Besides look at that hand, the claw like nails and it's obviously covered with the Bijuu Chakra cloak, so it can't be Minato, it's most likely Naruto which makes me wonder why the suspense, or Kushina, who wasn't sealed insider the Shinigami's stomach like Minato.

Edit: Damn it I just realised it isn't Gaara that's shouting at in shock, it's the Third Tsuchikage, the person who has never seen Naruto and has just witnessed a Rasengan armed Yellow Flash, the man who almost single-handedly defeated his forces. D'oh, The Tsuchikage thinks it's the Fourth Hokage, not Naruto.

What I do remember however is that Tsunade said that Naruto's style and jutsu were more similar to Kushina than Minato which up to now no one can quite understand other than perhaps the Shadow Clone Jutsu. The Rasengan and Summoning Jutsu are both most certainly Minato's jutsus.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Maybe Naruto way of moving in battle is what they meant by his fighting style being like his mother's, wasnt she reckless when she fought too?

[harry4e]

What I do remember however is that Tsunade said that Naruto's style and jutsu were more similar to Kushina than Minato which up to now no one can quite understand other than perhaps the Shadow Clone Jutsu. The Rasengan and Summoning Jutsu are both most certainly Minato's jutsus.

No one is denying that, i'm just saying it would be foolish to assume just because they were Minato's moves, Kushina would not know how to use them in battle either, specially a move like Rasengan which would suit someone like Kushina who can use chakra chains to halt their movment and finish them off with the Rasengan. The Hirashin sounds like it was Minato only move but the Rasengan was not kept secret by him.

But as I commented earlier, after seeing the final page a few more times, I'm inclined to beleive that Oniki is the one who shouted out 'Is That!!' because he's not seen Naruto, he relates the Yellow Flash armed with a Rasengan as the man who rained terror on his forces in the last war...so he's probably thinking Minato has come back from the dead to finish the job, same way Chiyo mistook Kakashi for his old man.

[merryGOflava]

That's why I keep saying it might be Kushina, Just because we never saw her use the Rasengan doesn't mean she doesn't know, we didn't know Kakashi knew the move until it came time to teach Naruto the wind element but turned out he knew but prefered to use Chidori for some reason. I would bet 100% cert that Kushina knew the Rasengan, if Minato taught his master and student, he'd teach the women who taught him the Uzumaki fuinjutsu secrets, also as I mentioned before the Rasengan and the Beast Bomb as in theory very similar to produce so who is to say Minato didn't learn the move after learning about the Bijuu bomb from Kushina.

http://mangastream.c...uto/48046013/18 Besides look at that hand, the claw like nails and it's obviously covered with the Bijuu Chakra cloak, so it can't be Minato, it's most likely Naruto which makes me wonder why the suspense, or Kushina, who wasn't sealed insider the Shinigami's stomach like Minato.

Edit: Damn it I just realised it isn't Gaara that's shouting at in shock, it's the Third Tsuchikage, the person who has never seen Naruto and has just witnessed a Rasengan armed Yellow Flash, the man who almost single-handedly defeated his forces. D'oh, The Tsuchikage thinks it's the Fourth Hokage, not Naruto.

only looking at the last part of the comment :o it was gaara that shouted that, hes on his sand if you look closely the tsuchikage is next to him though.. but hes just flying.

and to add...does anyone know how to just quote little parts of pplz comments..cause quoting the whole thing is annoying especially if i dont want to reply about the whole comment!!

[naruto-z]

Yeah, it's not the tschuchikage. After looking closely, it's definitely coming from Gaara. Especially since the previous panel was of Gaara's surprise.