9679 replies to this topic

[Strangelove]

You'll notice how I'm still in the kitchen. I have no problem with the heat. And yet, other people apparently do. "Guys, this particular point is not in agreement with the NaruSaku pairing. Let's stop talking about it. Who wants cookies?"



And yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact that media both reflects and affects our morality in the real world.

I hope you don't take morality out of the media, morality should come from your own self awareness, is what makes us living beings. Heck even rats have some sense of moral code.

[The Tax-Man]

You'll notice how I'm still in the kitchen. I have no problem with the heat. And yet, other people apparently do. "Guys, this particular point is not in agreement with the NaruSaku pairing. Let's stop talking about it. Who wants cookies?"



And yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact that media both reflects and affects our morality in the real world.

No, that's not the reason. For me, at least. I agree with you, yes. But really, it's naive and idealistic on your part to think that no one will ever make those things or that many people care about it. They don't. It's the sad truth. There can be no better answer because you're absolutely right.

@Strangelove
Good point. But again, media does affect morality. Just not as much as he says, what with the abundance of media now and the carefree nature of the manga we're talking about. (And most Shonen manga)

Edited by The Tax-Man, 03 April 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

You do know anime has something called a tsundere , right? Just making sure.

You do realize that I don't care, right? You do realize that someone's label for themselves does not justify their actions, nor does it excuse the moral implications, right? I do not accept the Tsundere argument, nor will I ever. In terms of character planning, Sakura treats Naruto the way she does because she is a Tsundere. From a moral perspective, she is a Tsundere because she treats Naruto the way she does. Would you ever accept someone saying to you "Oh, I had to knock one of your teeth out. I'm a douche. That's how I roll."

No, that's not the reason. For me, at least. I agree with you, yes. But really, it's naive and idealistic on your part to think that no one will ever make those things or that many people care about it. They don't. It's the sad truth. There can be no better answer because you're absolutely right.

If I am absolutely right, then why should I accept it just because everyone else seems to? Why should I refrain from making the point? Why should I accept people's defense of her actions at that time when they are full of fallacious garbage?

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[The Tax-Man]

You do realize that I don't care, right? You do realize that someone's label for themselves does not justify their actions, nor does it excuse the moral implications, right? I do not accept the Tsundere argument, nor will I ever. In terms of character planning, Sakura treats Naruto the way she does because she is a Tsundere. From a moral perspective, she is a Tsundere because she treats Naruto the way she does. Would you ever accept someone saying to you "Oh, I had to knock one of your teeth out. I'm a douche. That's how I roll."

Do you really take this that seriously or are you just playing devil's advocate? NO, it will certainly not be a mirror image of real life moral codes nor follow them. Problem? Don't read. That's all one can do.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 03 April 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Do you really take this that seriously or are you just playing devil's advocate? NO, it will certainly not be a mirror image of real life moral codes nor follow them. Problem? Don't read. That's all one can do.

Why don't you go ahead and explain to me why I shouldn't take it seriously?

NO, it will certainly not be a mirror image of real life moral codes nor follow them. Problem? Don't read. That's all one can do.

You are wrong, and that's the problem. You may not see women sending men flying in a comedic manner. But they generally do get away with abusing their husbands and boyfriends, and it's precisely because the social conditioning of the media condones it from the time they are old enough to understand what is happening. We do not form our basis of morality off of any means of logic. We base it off common sense, which is far from the same thing. We base it off of social tradition until that tradition is contested.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Strangelove]

You do realize that I don't care, right? You do realize that someone's label for themselves does not justify their actions, nor does it excuse the moral implications, right? I do not accept the Tsundere argument, nor will I ever. In terms of character planning, Sakura treats Naruto the way she does because she is a Tsundere. From a moral perspective, she is a Tsundere because she treats Naruto the way she does. Would you ever accept someone saying to you "Oh, I had to knock one of your teeth out. I'm a douche. That's how I roll."

Uhm her actions justify the label not the other way around.

What about Naruto's mother, i bet her label did not justify the kids she beat half to death. Yet she is a lovable character.

Edited by Strangelove, 03 April 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[The Tax-Man]

Why don't you go ahead and explain to me why I shouldn't take it seriously?

Because it is fiction, done in a comedic context(barely EVER, actually), and it only follows exaggeration patterns most art follows. Taking art that seriously is just calling for trouble.

Uhm her actions justify the label not the other way around.

What about Naruto's mother, i bet her label did not justify the kids she beat half to death. Yet she is a lovable character.

Great example of how conflict is exaggerated in manga.

You may not see women sending men flying in a comedic manner. But they generally do get away with abusing their husbands and boyfriends, and it's precisely because the social conditioning of the media condones it from the time they are old enough to understand what is happening.

Seriously? Seeing Sakura punch Naruto makes kids think it's fine to beat their husbands? I'm sorry, but I've seen kids grow up with Naruto. I myself spent my teenage years with it and no one I've ever seen has had that affect on their moral code with a damn cartoon. It isn't nearly as conditioning as you think.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 03 April 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Uhm her actions justify the label not the other way around.

What about Naruto's mother, i bet her label did not justify the kids she beat half to death. Yet she is a lovable character.

EXACTLY

Because it is fiction, done in a comedic context(barely EVER, actually), and it only follows exaggeration patterns most art follows. Taking art that seriously is just calling for trouble.

Do you not realize that art and entertainment have always been opinions reflective on the norms of society? Do you not realize that is precisely what makes art and entertainment relatable? Stories are not written on common formulas with common archetypes by accident. And I'll tell you this: if you plan to be successful as a writer, even in terms of fanfiction, you will have problems if you don't understand this.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[Strangelove]

EXACTLY

Then explain to me again how Sakura is different?

Do you not realize that art and entertainment have always been opinions reflective on the norms of society? Do you not realize that is precisely what makes art and entertainment relatable? Stories are not written on common formulas with common archetypes by accident.

Isn't Japanese society different than American society? I am pretty sure some social Norms are very different. Books being written today in the Western World would be consider sacrilege in the East.

Edited by Strangelove, 03 April 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Then explain to me again how Sakura is different?

She isn't. You just said, carbon copy, what I've been saying all of this time. She fits her label because of how she behaves, not the other way around. And that is exactly why I will not accept argument from her label as justification for her actions. She is a lovable character because she is presented that way despite how she behaved in the past, and precisely because that kind of behavior is not treated as wrong in our society. Or any society, for that matter.

[The Tax-Man]

Do you not realize that art and entertainment have always been opinions reflective on the norms of society? Do you not realize that is precisely what makes art and entertainment relatable? Stories are not written on common formulas with common archetypes by accident. And I'll tell you this: if you plan to be successful as a writer, even in terms of fanfiction, you will have problems if you don't understand this.

Which means that society is flawed. Really? We got a genius here. /sarcasm

But do you realize that just because it may have been a norm/perceived to be a norm, it doesn't mean it affects society much at all? Quick: name a few sensible people who think domestic violence is fine. Not many. Name some that do it. Many. It's a deep rooted emotion. Humans are the same as they were 100,000 years ago and it takes time to get rid of instinct. We are making progress on that, but do you not understand the concept of slapstick comedy? It doesn't care if you find it offensive. It just is. And it is the most innocent comedy possible outside puns.

This comedy is the Eminem or Marilyn Manson of art, and please understand that it doesn't care. That's all I'm saying.

She isn't. You just said, carbon copy, what I've been saying all of this time. She fits her label because of how she behaves, not the other way around. And that is exactly why I will not accept argument from her label as justification for her actions. She is a lovable character because she is presented that way despite how she behaved in the past, and precisely because that kind of behavior is not treated as wrong in our society. Or any society, for that matter.

Again, it's not perceived as fine. It is the exaggeration that makes us laugh, EXACTLY because we know that it's wrong in real life. It's an escape.

Morals are not black and white, and the human brain is not perfect. Don't try to pretend moral codes are set in stone or this punching around is a big issue.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 03 April 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Strangelove]

She isn't. You just said, carbon copy, what I've been saying all of this time. She fits her label because of how she behaves, not the other way around. And that is exactly why I will not accept argument from her label as justification for her actions. She is a lovable character because she is presented that way despite how she behaved in the past, and precisely because that kind of behavior is not treated as wrong in our society. Or any society, for that matter.

Here is another, let's say the roles are reversed and is Naruto hitting Sakura. Wouldn't that cause an outrage in our society. While being consider normal in the others.

Here is why our society can take it.

We see women as more delicate than men, the male has to be the one that shows he can take it. A strong armed male is seen as abusive. A strong arm female is seen as independent, that is why some of us enjoy the hits Naruto received from Sakura, while if Naruto hit Sakura, parents would be out in protest.


That is why I cannot take Hinata, she isn't independent, she is too weak. Naruto is the strongest in the universe




Still he can't do crap.

Edited by Strangelove, 03 April 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Here is another, let's say the roles are reversed and is Naruto hitting Sakura. Wouldn't that cause an outrage in our society. While being consider normal in the others.

Here is why our society can take it.

We see women as more delicate than men, the male has to be the one that shows he can take it. A strong armed male is seen as abusive. A strong arm female is seen as independent, that is why some of us enjoy the hits Naruto received from Sakura, while if Naruto hit Sakura, parents would be out in protest.


That is why I cannot take Hinata, she isn't independent, she is too weak. Naruto is the strongest in the universe




Still he can't do crap.

And that is precisely the crap moral reasoning that perpetuates this. It's double standards like this that makes true equality a pipe dream.

[The Tax-Man]

We see women as more delicate than men, the male has to be the one that shows he can take it. A strong armed male is seen as abusive. A strong arm female is seen as independent, that is why some of us enjoy the hits Naruto received from Sakura, while if Naruto hit Sakura, parents would be out in protest.

Hypocrisy right here. Females are generally not as muscular as men, it's a physical fact. However, that doesn't mean beating men to prove the point that females aren't slaves is right. It's about gender equality, not female betterment.

And that is precisely the crap moral reasoning that perpetuates this. It's double standards like this that makes true equality a pipe dream.

True. I just have a problem with you applying this to art.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 03 April 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Strangelove]

Hypocrisy right here. Females are generally not as muscular as men, it's a physical fact. However, that doesn't mean beating men to prove the point that females aren't slaves is right.

Who said that was right?

[The Tax-Man]

Who said that was right?

You did when you said "We perceive...". It's that perception that's the problem. I'm not saying you're a hypocrite, but that perception is.

[PachucoDesigns]

Hypocrisy right here. Females are generally not as muscular as men, it's a physical fact. However, that doesn't mean beating men to prove the point that females aren't slaves is right. It's about gender equality, not female betterment.




True. I just have a problem with you applying this to art.

Listen, man, I am an artist. And a writer. And a connoisseur of both, classical and contemporary. I know what art is, what defines it, and what its role is in society. And the fact is that if it doesn't have relatable context, then it does not gain popularity. It is also not given form without the artist's own moral sentiments, so one begets the other. You may think it doesn't need to be applied to art, but it is the very nature of art itself. I know you agree with me where it matters. But you seem to say it's ok to accept it because it's fictional and exaggerated, and that's where I disagree. Because if the genders were reversed, it wouldn't be. And that double standard is causing problems.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I like Sakura, because I do. In all of these arguments, I am speaking from a general point of view. And I am saying that the way she treated Naruto is going to sway some people's opinions for the negative, and it is justified.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[The Tax-Man]

Listen, man, I am an artist. And a writer. And a connoisseur of both, classical and contemporary. I know what art is, what defines it, and what its role is in society. And the fact is that if it doesn't have relatable context, then it does not gain popularity. It is also not given form without the artist's own moral sentiments, so one begets the other. You may think it doesn't need to be applied to art, but it is the very nature of art itself. I know you agree with me where it matters. But you seem to say it's ok to accept it because it's fictional and exaggerated, and that's where I disagree. Because if the genders were reversed, it wouldn't be. And that double standard is causing problems.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I like Sakura, because I do. In all of these arguments, I am speaking from a general point of view. And I am saying that the way she treated Naruto is going to sway some people's opinions for the negative, and it is justified.

Miscommunication, then. All I said was that art is not always morally or politically correct, and it is naive to expect it to be. Remember when they taught you the Odyssey or Hercules' story? Both men murdered hundreds in the name of heroism. That is a moral grey area art loves. My only point this whole time.

[Strangelove]

Remember that politically correctness in one part of the world is different than another part of the world.

What we perceived as wrong in the United States may be perceived as a norm in places like Amsterdam


If you don't know what I am talking about, go to Amsterdam, and be shocked.

Edited by Strangelove, 03 April 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Miscommunication, then. All I said was that art is not always morally or politically correct, and it is naive to expect it to be. Remember when they taught you the Odyssey or Hercules' story? Both men murdered hundreds in the name of heroism. That is a moral grey area art loves. My only point this whole time.

You're missing a couple of things. First of all, when art deliberately contradicts morality, it's most often in parody or irony. Much the way of Andy Warhol's work. I think we can agree that Kishimoto's work is not a parody of anything, seeing as how the same message is prevalent in all forms of media everywhere. Second, moral messages are relative to their time. When you talk about the Odyssey or Hercules, or the Iliad, you're speaking of thousands of years ago. Circumstances were different, and certain things we perceive as wrong now were not brought to light for a long time.

Remember that politically correctness in one part of the world is different than another part of the world.

What we perceived as wrong in the United States may be perceived as a norm in places like Amsterdam


If you don't know what I am talking about, go to Amsterdam, and be shocked.

In a general sense, yes. In this sense, no. This moral problem is everywhere in the 1st world.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 11:17 PM.