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Well I'm asking you to prove how that Sakura was being impulsive. I'm no more convinced of your views than you are of mine. If you are not trying to convince me to your way of thinking, then don't expect or assume for me to do the same. But sure, if you want proof, I won't mind justifying my opinion. first lets take a look at the sequence of events: Sai tells Sakura Naruto loves her, Sakura cries, Shikamaru comes in and tells them of the decision to kill Sasuke, tries to reason with them that it's all for the best, Sakura finally complies but said that she will be the one to tell Naruto, Then told the rest of them to not tell Naruto anything, then traveled all the way to the land of Iron. Okay? Now In between the time that it took to get ready and reach Naruto, Do you not think that she would have at least thought things through, if not a little? Do you consider the possibility that She considered the consequences of her actions and what might happen to her and Naruto's relationship, or that it might be selfish of her to do this? Or do you think sh's the type that is reckless and doesn't think Of what she's doing? Like Naruto? While there has been an instance of that, it was right on the spot and she wasn't thinking cause someone's life was in danger. compare that to the situation of her going to Naruto. Was she in a rush? Was she calm enough to evaluate the situation? If you don't think so Prove it. Now if you are saying she considered this but did it anyways that is justified. Sai said she confessed to Naruto about Sasuke to make amends for making him keep that promise. And she plans to kill Sasuke for that same reason. Sai said she was willing to saddle of of that because She cares for Naruto. It was well intended but poorly played out as you said, but she has shown that she otherwise fully prepared for the consequences. It's not impulse when you understand and accept the consequences. Yes she knew It would cause Naruto to hate her, and yes she knew she was planning to kill her first crush/love, which was devastating but she was willing to deal with it when the time comes because Once again she failed to be independent and was relying on Naruto as usual. So she was prepared to for the negative out come that was to come even if she knew it was wrong, which to me does not sound like impulse but sound if rather flawed logic. There. Your answer? However after rereading that chapter I understand your reasoning more.
Impulsive is to act without thought, a rejection of your idea that thought was put into this before. It is not a claim in and of itself. The only "evidence" that I need here is the idea that no thought process regarding her love for him, let alone a time frame of its consideration, is presented. So I have no justifiable reason to believe you.
Based on the series of events that you just laid out, this does not suggest her giving her love for him any manner of thought. All it suggests is that she feels guilty for his pain, wants to opt out of her contribution to that pain, and to spare his feelings. It says nothing about whether her "I don't love Sasuke anymore, I love you" statement was completely true. In fact, it doesn't suggest that it is true at all. The only reason I even give it partial believability is from other interactions with Naruto that came before this, not from the reasoning you just gave me.
Once again, if I make no claims, I have nothing to prove. You say that she was in the state of mind to consider these things, and that she had to time, therefore she did and was honest. This is called begging the question, and it is a logical fallacy. You have based your reasoning behind your claim on blind assumptions which have not met the burden of proof themselves.
You show
me that she did have the time to consider it.
You show
me that she was calm enough to approach it, and had thought it through. Because the evidence is not plain for everyone to see, not without using logical fallacies in your reasoning. And my rejection of your claim based on those fallacies is not only reasonable, it's correct.
Her intentions were never the issue here. Her intentions were good. The issue here was whether or not her confession was purely honest. And there is a lack of evidence to suggest that it was.
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Yes, that is in fact, how it works. If you want someone to take your opinion seriously, then you have to provide some evidence to support it.
If you can't do that, then there is absolutely no reason for anyone to even consider your argument. Of course, there exist certain factors of uncertainty, such as subjective opinions and personal interpretations etc. etc. so not all arguments needs to be debated solely on hard facts. Sometimes it's just a matter of
"I interpret it this way and you interpret it this way", with neither side having any substantial leeway over the other.
As is the case here. You claim that the confession was impulsive and not well thought through, while others say it was and since no one knows the full extent of Sakura's feelings for Naruto, or indeed, where her personality is at at the moment, none of us can truly claim to be "right"...yet.
Besides, you've been making an awful lot of claims yourself, not just about the confession but also about Sakura's character/personality. In fact, wasn't it you who originally came in here and started this whole debate while simultaneously presenting the aforementioned claims? Then, by your logic, you're the one who has to prove the you're right, not us (and by "us", I mean just the people who disagree with you, not necessarily all of H&E).
Hell, even if that wasn't the case, the burden of proof still goes both ways. Again, if you wan't your opinion to be taken seriuosly, you have to present at least some kind of proof in order to back it up.
Oh and about your comment about Sakura calling Naruto an idiot and hitting him, you know the one you made a couple of pages back. Well, im sorry to say this, but that Tsundere argument pretty much
IS the reason why a lot of people don't really treat it as much of an issue. It's pretty much just an extremely exaggerated form of slapstick humour and as such, that's how it is treated most of the time. Besides, when looking at it from within this context, Naruto totally deserved it sometimes. You may not like it and you may think it's a double standard, but that's how it is.
So yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from here. In fact, I feel much the same way. I also hate how in modern society, it's okay for a woman to beat a man, but when a man does it to a woman, it is
always considered abuse. That's bullsh** and the sooner we get rid of this annoying double standard (and others like it) the better.
My point is that Sakura hitting Naruto is not to be taken at face value, as it is essentially a well known and widely used trope.
Now, as for calling him an idiot and such. Yeah, Sakura can be a little harsh at times, but that's just how her personality is and to be honest, just like the hitting thing, most of the time it's just a matter of her calling him out whenever he's acting like an idiot/pervert, like a true friend should. The only times I think there was ever any malice behind it was back in part one, but the truth is I don't really consider part 1 Sakura's personality to be relevant to the current Sakura's personality, at least not so much in terms of her faith/confidence in Naruto.
My opinion goes no further than the idea things are what they appear to be unless indicated otherwise. Therefore, the default without making claims or theorizing beyond the necessary. If someone comes and starts playing the role of the apologist, suggesting thoughts or intentions beyond what are evident, then it is up to them to present their reasoning, the logic behind it(yes, there is a difference), and evidence to back up their claims (preferably from the manga itself, as I am not interested in Kihimoto's intentions nearly as much as I am interested in the results). I have made no claim other than to reject that her plan was thought out, in other words, impulsive: to act without thought. The fan who suggests that this is not the case is the one who has the burden of proof. Yes, this is how it works. And if any fan who makes this argument intends to convince me otherwise, then it is up to that fan to state their case in a logical manner. There is no
my logic. Logic is objective, and it is either sound or fallacious.
What claims have I made that you believe I need to substantiate? Point me to them, and I'll do what I can.
Nobody ever deserves to be punched in the face unless he or she was the one who threw the first blow. If it is not acceptable when the genders are reversed, if it would not be acceptable for Naruto to punch Sakura in the face, then it is a double standard and I will not accept "that's just the way it is" as an answer. Logic lesson number #1: logical fallacies. These are instances where the logic of a statement falls through because it cannot be universally applied, and defeats itself. In this instance, a double standard is one such fallacy. As is special pleading, which seem to be used interchangeably in this sort of argument.
I don't see it as a double standard, it
is a double standard by the very definition of the term. And as for your "that's the way it is" argument? That's another logical fallacy. It's called "appeal to tradition."
I am well aware that a well designed character leaves room for speculation and the desire to read between the lines. But reading between the lines also opens the doors for apologetics, which is not acceptable. You cannot read between the lines when there is nothing to read, and you cannot artificially insert reasoning by begging the question (another logical fallacy) to defend a character's actions. It's much more noble to forgive a character for his/her faults rather than to try to justify them, because that indicates that you like them for who they are, and not who you wish them to be.
There is a reason why I do not accept the Tsundere argument. And it's because, while it explains structure and Kishimoto's intention for doing what he did according to her personality, it does not address moral content or what it contributes to the story as a whole. On a construction level, she hits Naruto because she is a Tsundere. On a moral level, she is a Tsundere because she hits Naruto. You would not accept someone smacking you across the face because they told you "I'm a Tsundere, I'm supposed to do this." No, archetypes like this don't truly exist in real life. And this is why. Because personality does not justify actions and moral character; actions and moral character define personality. And if we are supposed to be taking this story from a human perspective without having to consider its construction, then the Tsundere reasoning is irrelevant, because it does not lend to moral justification.
Edited by PachucoDesigns, 03 April 2012 - 06:10 AM.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
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