9679 replies to this topic

[PachucoDesigns]

Um.... Naruto has no hatred? Check the manga again. That's why he had to go through that waterfall of truth. Because he had unresolved hatred in his heart.

While some of the above is true, it's not responding to any of my points or any of your previous arguments. And if you're not going to stay on point, then *claps hand likes a Vegas dealer* I'm out!

Yeah, Naruto did have hatred. When, in that entire montage, was there mention of hatred for Sasuke or Sakura?

Let's break this down, shall we?

1 - Sakura comes to realize that Naruto's promise to her contributes to his pain.
2 - Sakura concludes that she must abide by the powers that be, for the sake of the entire ninja world.
3 - Sakura concludes that she must show Naruto her abandonment of her connection to Sasuke so that, when she kills him, he will at least know that she was truthful that she absolves him of his promise.
4 - Sakura uses a contrived confession as a "thank you" to Naruto, and a statement that she still loves him even after everything that has happened, and after everything that will happen.

Have I hit the major points? Ok, then, let's address these.

1- Sakura is correct that the promise has contributed, but acknowledges his persistent hope in Sasuke in spite of the promise. If this was the main problem, why did she not address this directly instead of side stepping it and trying to take matters into her own hands despite him?
2 - If her attempt to show him her abandonment of Sasuke is to the end of reconciling his feelings with the sentiments of the village, then that would mean she puts these things on an equal platform of importance. What ever happened to "stand by your man?" This, to me, implies that she does care for Naruto as a friend and as a comrade. But in her reconciling actions, she has no special feelings for him that she does not have for the rest of her friends.
3 - There can only be two outcomes to this act. 1) Naruto is convinced, concedes that he must acknowledge him as a traitor and abandon him as a friend. She has successfully manipulated him, and she used a promise of love to do it. 2) He does not accept it, he turns her down. She goes after Sasuke with the intent to kill him anyway, prepared to accept Naruto's anger and hatred toward her for the act. In addition to the loss of Sasuke, she has now added to his list of feelings regret for being unable to prevent it, and betrayal from the woman he loves. She has just made matters worse.
4- In doing this, she has caused two problems. 1) Her dishonesty forced a rift of distrust between them, however momentary, and escalated any conflict that was already there. She has shown that she does not trust in his respect for her, and that his actions are only guided by his infatuation for her. 2) She has just demonstrated that she does not have his best interests at heart, even if she thinks she's doing what is best for him.

I have addressed your points. She was not wrong in her intentions or in her feelings. She was wrong in her approach, and she has only herself to blame for the way he reacted.

I see what you mean, I suppose just in the circumstances being what they were, I feel sorry for both of them XD Yeah, she was a bit inconsiderate, but like you I do think she loves him and I suppose was just desperate to have the issue resolved because Naruto is burdened by so much. I can't say for certain what was going through her mind when she gave that confession, but I do think she had good intentions with it. It certainly wasn't the best way of going about it. I don't think that Naruto "hates" her or anything as some people say she does, I think he was just angry about her dishonesty more than he was about the confession as a whole, really. He holds the team 7 bond in very high regard and knows her true feelings. I think it really shows that he does know her a lot better than maybe she knows herself, considering when she had the chance to inflict harm she couldn't. She kept trying to lie to herself, and since I do love both characters dearly maybe I just am conditioned to regard them in a better light, where I think even in that situation he's not thinking about his own hurt, but rather about the foolish thing Sakura's doing. He doesn't want her trying to hide and lie to herself, and accept him because it is the "right" thing to do in her mind or whatever. Maybe that's why his words were harsh, because the stressful situation and the implications that Sakura has stopped believing in him and in team seven.

Her whole plan was in the wrong, anyways, even without that confession. She couldn't take Sasuke on by herself. She would have gotten herself killed and subsequently burdened Naruto even further by her loss and the pain of having one friend responsible for the death of another. That could have been catastrophic if it did happen. The Konoha 11 would have had an even greater issue leaving Sasuke alone if he was responsible for the death of their teammate, and one that's pretty well-developed in relation to everyone else to boot. Just thinking about the what-if outcome is quite bad XD Thankfully her team, and Naruto, was there to help her out. But, she was going off of the possibility and again, I say the desperation of the situation, in the belief that even if it caused her great pain and even the loss of her life, she wanted Naruto to be able to move on from Sasuke because at that point, with everything looking dire, and considering Naruto just had to fight against Pain and everything, I can understand where the "inconsiderate" nature of her plan comes from. I just don't think he was that angry with HER as it may seem. More, like her, they were affected by the stress and emotional strain of every issue around them, and the fact that Sasuke is a touchy subject.

Exactly. I'm not painting her as a villain. Desperate, yes. Inconsiderate, but not intentionally trying to hurt him. Self-sacrificing for his sake, but failing to understand the potential consequences of her actions. She does love him, and I know this. But that's not what she was thinking about when she confessed to him. She had an agenda, even if that agenda was to relieve Naruto of his burden because she cares for him. But it doesn't change the fact that she went about it all wrong.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 01 April 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[Gravenimage]

So what are you a SS fan? NH? or SS and NH? why make does kind of comments...

I know I hear you but I won't continue with this rant, whether if some people here are or pretend to be NS fans this forum is for all fans of different pairings. Let them speak their ideas and opinions and we should respect them.

[PachucoDesigns]

I know I hear you but I won't continue with this rant, whether if some people here are or pretend to be NS fans this forum is for all fans of different pairings. Let them speak their ideas and opinions and we should respect them.

I am a NS supporter. I just don't think a fan is someone who believes that Sakura can do no wrong. I don't think a fan is someone who treats any criticism of her actions or character as bashing, refusing to hear conflicting opinions.

[Gravenimage]

I am a NS supporter. I just don't think a fan is someone who believes that Sakura can do no wrong. I don't think a fan is someone who treats any criticism of her actions or character as bashing, refusing to hear conflicting opinions.

Whoa whoa I'm not saying Sakura has done no wrong or that she's a saint, but she has tried hard to protect and support Naruto. She's not perfect I know that even if she has done the wrong things for the right reasons, she's aware she has made many mistake, mistakes she's not proud of. This is why I like her character she's human, she makes mistakes showing her faults and she acknowledges them. Unlike Hinata her fandom sees her as the most perfect, angelic, flawless person who is the only one for Naruto.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah, Naruto did have hatred. When, in that entire montage, was there mention of hatred for Sasuke or Sakura?

Let's break this down, shall we?

1 - Sakura comes to realize that Naruto's promise to her contributes to his pain.
2 - Sakura concludes that she must abide by the powers that be, for the sake of the entire ninja world.
3 - Sakura concludes that she must show Naruto her abandonment of her connection to Sasuke so that, when she kills him, he will at least know that she was truthful that she absolves him of his promise.
4 - Sakura uses a contrived confession as a "thank you" to Naruto, and a statement that she still loves him even after everything that has happened, and after everything that will happen.

Have I hit the major points? Ok, then, let's address these.

1- Sakura is correct that the promise has contributed, but acknowledges his persistent hope in Sasuke in spite of the promise. If this was the main problem, why did she not address this directly instead of side stepping it and trying to take matters into her own hands despite him?
2 - If her attempt to show him her abandonment of Sasuke is to the end of reconciling his feelings with the sentiments of the village, then that would mean she puts these things on an equal platform of importance. What ever happened to "stand by your man?" This, to me, implies that she does care for Naruto as a friend and as a comrade. But in her reconciling actions, she has no special feelings for him that she does not have for the rest of her friends.
3 - There can only be two outcomes to this act. 1) Naruto is convinced, concedes that he must acknowledge him as a traitor and abandon him as a friend. She has successfully manipulated him, and she used a promise of love to do it. 2) He does not accept it, he turns her down. She goes after Sasuke with the intent to kill him anyway, prepared to accept Naruto's anger and hatred toward her for the act. In addition to the loss of Sasuke, she has now added to his list of feelings regret for being unable to prevent it, and betrayal from the woman he loves. She has just made matters worse.
4- In doing this, she has caused two problems. 1) Her dishonesty forced a rift of distrust between them, however momentary, and escalated any conflict that was already there. She has shown that she does not trust in his respect for her, and that his actions are only guided by his infatuation for her. 2) She has just demonstrated that she does not have his best interests at heart, even if she thinks she's doing what is best for him.

I have addressed your points. She was not wrong in her intentions or in her feelings. She was wrong in her approach, and she has only herself to blame for the way he reacted.



Exactly. I'm not painting her as a villain. Desperate, yes. Inconsiderate, but not intentionally trying to hurt him. Self-sacrificing for his sake, but failing to understand the potential consequences of her actions. She does love him, and I know this. But that's not what she was thinking about when she confessed to him. She had an agenda, even if that agenda was to relieve Naruto of his burden because she cares for him. But it doesn't change the fact that she went about it all wrong.

You just contradicted yourself there. She only sees him as a friend and then SHE DOES LOVE HIM? Did Sakura do it out of love for Naruto or not? And you're making her sound stupid. Like she did not consider the consequences. Sai said she already KNEW the consequences and was willing to accept Naruto's hate for hurting him. And "STAND BY HER MAN"? Do you think she's still that love struck fan girl in part I that agreed to everything that the target of her affections said, even if she knew it was wrong? You think she's that shallow? And you're saying this as a fan? Excuse me for saying this, but you should get your get your arguments straight before responding. I also would like to point out you avoided what tricksie was asking. She asked if you ACTUALLY thought Naruto had no hatred. Pein/Nagato? Check. The village to a certain extent? Check. Therefor how can he not have hatred? You said "Naruto HAS NO HATRED". Unquote.

Edited by Phantom_999, 01 April 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

You just contradicted yourself there. She only sees him as a friend and then SHE DOES LOVE HIM? Did Sakura do it out of love for Naruto or not? And you're making her sound stupid. Like she did not consider the consequences. Sai said she already KNEW the consequences and was willing to accept Naruto's hate for hurting him. And "STAND BY HER MAN"? Do you think she's still that love struck fan girl in part I that agreed to everything that the target of her affections said, even if she knew it was wrong? You think she's that shallow? And you're saying this as a fan? Excuse me for saying this, but you should get your get your arguments straight before responding. I also would like to point out you avoided what tricksie was asking. She asked if you ACTUALLY thought Naruto had no hatred. Pein/Nagato? Check. The village to a certain extent? Check. Therefor how can he not have hatred? You said "Naruto HAS NO HATRED". Unquote.

I think you fail to make the distinction between what is currently evident and belief about what is to come. Right now, I think she is conflicted, and is not admitting to herself how much she cares for him. As a result, her actions can show that conflict. Sometimes, her emotional response will paint him as special to her. But sometimes, as in this case, her actions don't quite show it. Not necessarily because it isn't true, but because the chaos and desperation of what is happening demands action before she has the time to properly process it. No, not "Stand by your man" concerning Sasuke. "Stand by your man" concerning Naruto. If she is already over all conflict about loving him, and if she truly does, then she would ride out his ambitions with him. She would not let him be alone, and she would not betray his feelings for the sake of the greater good. If anything, she would come to the decision with him as to what the greater good is, but she would be honest and stand by him; stand by her man. No, I'm not saying that she's shallow. I'm saying that the confession is shallow. Not shallow as in lacking true love or consideration. Shallow as in not well thought out, and used as backing for an ulterior motive. Shallow as in not given the contemplation that it deserves before she says it. Shallow as in rushed and premature.

I think you need to understand words in context instead of seeing a buzz word and lighting up with anger.

I did address this. I addressed it right at the beginning of my reply to her. Yes, he has hatred. Or, rather, had hatred. But his hatred was neither for Sakura, nor for Sasuke. And therefore, in this instance, it is irrelevant.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 02 April 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[Don-kun]

I know I hear you but I won't continue with this rant, whether if some people here are or pretend to be NS fans this forum is for all fans of different pairings. Let them speak their ideas and opinions and we should respect them.

Sorry but I never ask him/she not to post what he/she thinks about the pairing...
I just say that him/she speaking about NS fans are in denial is wrong you don't speak like that.
We can always say NH and SS are in denial or SS and NH fans can say that NS fans are in denail...

But a NS fan should never use that expression with another NS on less you really are a NH or SS fan or both.

[tricksie]

Phantom's right: Pachuco, you did contradict yourself. A few times.

Unfortunately, numbering items is not addressing points. It's still all over the place. Not sure where you're going with these diatribes, but best of luck on your journey, dude.

Edited by tricksie, 02 April 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Phantom's right: Pachuco, you did contradict yourself. A few times.

Unfortunately, numbering items is not addressing points. It's still all over the place. Not sure where you're going with these diatribes, but best of luck on your journey, dude.

I have not contradicted myself. You are not reading my posts. If there is a point you think I am missing, feel free to tell me what it is, and I'll be happy to address it.

Sakura's intentions and feelings were right, but her approach was wrong.

But a NS fan should never use that expression with another NS on less you really are a NH or SS fan or both.

Are you serious? You're treating this like it's a war. That's absurd. Do you have any idea what you sound like? You're treating me like I'm a double agent, or a spy. You take this way, way too seriously.

I say NS fans are in denial about this because they are the only ones I've seen who defend the approach she took, and that includes the neutral parties. They are the only ones who try to defend every little thing Sakura does, as though she can absolutely do no wrong. It's foolish.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 02 April 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[merryGOflava]

I have not contradicted myself. You are not reading my posts. If there is a point you think I am missing, feel free to tell me what it is, and I'll be happy to address it.

Sakura's intentions and feelings were right, but her approach was wrong.



Are you serious? You're treating this like it's a war. That's absurd. Do you have any idea what you sound like? You're treating me like I'm a double agent, or a spy. You take this way, way too seriously.

I say NS fans are in denial about this because they are the only ones I've seen who defend the approach she took, and that includes the neutral parties. They are the only ones who try to defend every little thing Sakura does, as though she can absolutely do no wrong. It's foolish.

hey i agreed with you >:T (regarding sakura's confession)

and i also agree that sakura cant do everything right.

[PachucoDesigns]

hey i agreed with you >:T (regarding sakura's confession)

and i also agree that sakura cant do everything right.

It's ok, merryGOflava. I know, I saw that you agreed. Perhaps I speak to generally. I'll just say that most of the NS fans I've encountered so far defend her actions, and they tend to do it on the same pretenses.

[merryGOflava]

It's ok, merryGOflava. I know, I saw that you agreed. Perhaps I speak to generally. I'll just say that most of the NS fans I've encountered so far defend her actions, and they tend to do it on the same pretenses.

i know what ya mean

i guess people have bashed sakura so much that they are just tired of hearing anything bad about her now


i always knew sakura's confession was to get naruto to come back so he wouldnt be in danger.

but she must care about him alot to sacrifice her love life for naruto's sake.

it just shows how much she cares about him deeply without even knowing it

[PachucoDesigns]

i know what ya mean

i guess people have bashed sakura so much that they are just tired of hearing anything bad about her now


i always knew sakura's confession was to get naruto to come back so he wouldnt be in danger.

but she must care about him alot to sacrifice her love life for naruto's sake.

it just shows how much she cares about him deeply without even knowing it

Exactly. I'm not bashing Sakura. I like Sakura, and I want them to be together. I used to hate Sakura, but someone here made me rethink my position. She has that ability somehow. She's a special kind of girl. lol

After looking more closely, it is the ideal pairing. But I can't just overlook every mistake that's made. I know her intentions were in the right place, but she could have approached it better. I don't hate her for it, and neither does Naruto.

[merryGOflava]

Exactly. I'm not bashing Sakura. I like Sakura, and I want them to be together. I used to hate Sakura, but someone here made me rethink my position. She has that ability somehow. She's a special kind of girl. lol

After looking more closely, it is the ideal pairing. But I can't just overlook every mistake that's made. I know her intentions were in the right place, but she could have approached it better. I don't hate her for it, and neither does Naruto.

which makes me wonder.....why DID she confess??? i mean by what sai said.....she knew naruto wouldnt listen to her.....so why even try that???

[Darth Krypt]

Are you serious? You're treating this like it's a war. That's absurd. Do you have any idea what you sound like? You're treating me like I'm a double agent, or a spy. You take this way, way too seriously.

I say NS fans are in denial about this because they are the only ones I've seen who defend the approach she took, and that includes the neutral parties. They are the only ones who try to defend every little thing Sakura does, as though she can absolutely do no wrong. It's foolish.

There's a reason they call it "pairing wars" and some people are really involved in it. They get into "battles" with fans of other pairings and are very passionate about it. Personally I don't want to be involved because I just want to enjoy a story and be objective about it. The reason I support NS is because the developments in the story points to that ending and if there's any new developments concerning pairings I'll look into it objectively and try to remove any type of bias.

I don't think you said anything bad about Sakura. What you said was true, Sakura was sincere in her feelings for Naruto but she was wrong on her approach and most importantly, timing. And that problem is in the form of Sasuke. I'm sure most NS fans would agree with this. Her feelings for Sasuke will need to be resolved once and for all for NS to happen.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 02 April 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

There's a reason they call it "pairing wars" and some people are really involved in it. They get into "battles" with fans of other pairings and are very passionate about it. Personally I don't want to be involved because I just want to enjoy a story and be objective about it. The reason I support NS is because the developments in the story points to that ending and if there's any new developments concerning pairings I'll look into it objectively and try to remove any type of bias.

I don't think you said anything bad about Sakura. What you said was true, Sakura was sincere in her feelings for Naruto but she was wrong on her approach and most importantly, timing. And that problem is in the form of Sasuke. I'm sure most NS fans would agree with this. Her feelings for Sasuke will need to be resolved once and for all for NS to happen.

Yeah, well, it seems a little too close to religious wars. Beliefs that cause hurt feelings and shouldn't be taken so seriously. After all, there will only be one outcome regardless of what we all want. Until then, unfortunately, it's all just a lot of wishful thinking. And based on what you've said here, I think we support NS for the same reason. I have no particular allegiance toward the pairing, nor am I really a "fan." It just seems to be the most probable, and the only one that does not damage the integrity of the story.

Ultimately, most fans tend to forget that these are naive teenagers, young and inexperienced in life, however experienced as ninjas/soldiers. Kishimoto, however, has not forgotten this. That is why they behave the way they do. There is a clear distinction between adults and children here (even Shizune, who is about a year or two older than me. But she's still adorable, I don't care. lol). And that distinction must be made. This is the time of their growth, that malleable transience of the middle-teens that will decide who they are to become. And so conflicting emotions and mistakes are not only inevitable, they are necessary for believability sake. That is the mark of a competent storyteller.

which makes me wonder.....why DID she confess??? i mean by what sai said.....she knew naruto wouldnt listen to her.....so why even try that???]

It really doesn't make sense, but I will say this. Though I think it was a bad move for her character, it was a brilliant move for Kishimoto as a plot device. The thing about people is that we are unpredictable at times, often illogical and don't know why we do what we do. We often act on impulse. Her behavior here was a mistake, one she likely regrets. But it also made her human, and ultimately, it will make the audience identify with her even more.

[merryGOflava]

It really doesn't make sense, but I will say this. Though I think it was a bad move for her character, it was a brilliant move for Kishimoto as a plot device. The thing about people is that we are unpredictable at times, often illogical and don't know why we do what we do. We often act on impulse. Her behavior here was a mistake, one she likely regrets. But it also made her human, and ultimately, it will make the audience identify with her even more.

yea I'll take that answer.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Sakura either needs to make amends with Naruto, and be clear to him about her feelings that her heart belongs to Sasuke. Or whatever Sakura held for Sasuke in the past must be put to past. Obviously, Kishi wants to troll her character to make money off this pairing wars between NS and SS/NH.

[Phantom_999]

I think you fail to make the distinction between what is currently evident and belief about what is to come. Right now, I think she is conflicted, and is not admitting to herself how much she cares for him. As a result, her actions can show that conflict. Sometimes, her emotional response will paint him as special to her. But sometimes, as in this case, her actions don't quite show it. Not necessarily because it isn't true, but because the chaos and desperation of what is happening demands action before she has the time to properly process it. No, not "Stand by your man" concerning Sasuke. "Stand by your man" concerning Naruto. If she is already over all conflict about loving him, and if she truly does, then she would ride out his ambitions with him. She would not let him be alone, and she would not betray his feelings for the sake of the greater good. If anything, she would come to the decision with him as to what the greater good is, but she would be honest and stand by him; stand by her man. No, I'm not saying that she's shallow. I'm saying that the confession is shallow. Not shallow as in lacking true love or consideration. Shallow as in not well thought out, and used as backing for an ulterior motive. Shallow as in not given the contemplation that it deserves before she says it. Shallow as in rushed and premature.

I think you need to understand words in context instead of seeing a buzz word and lighting up with anger.

I did address this. I addressed it right at the beginning of my reply to her. Yes, he has hatred. Or, rather, had hatred. But his hatred was neither for Sakura, nor for Sasuke. And therefore, in this instance, it is irrelevant.

I'm not angry, only pointing out your contradiction. You said Sakura only saw Naruto as a friend and her feelings for him were not special compared to anyone else in Konoha 11 in one response, and then said said she does love him in another. Sounds like that argument wasn't well thought out, unless you mean by her actions. If so, I agree the what she did was not the best of choices, but if you say she did not consider Naruto's feelings at all that is where we disagree on the matter. Second I know what you meant by "stand by her man" And my response is exactly what I meant. "SHOULD Sakura just agree with Naruto about Saving Sasuke cause she loves the former, and still has attachment to the latter? Is she still that much of the fan girl she used to be to behave that way, when she's clearly intelligent enough to see that to have Naruto keep chasing Sasuke would not be right, in a sense and would have harmful repercussions? I'm questioning whether or not you see her development as a character. And her confession is where we also disagree because I don't see it as covering for an ulterior motive, It was to let her feelings be known as she was planning to kill the person closest to both of them and was willing to accept any hostility from Naruto for it cause of the guilt of having him keep that painful promise. And I don't see it as a hasty, rushed move with some hidden agenda cause she had several hours, if not days to reflect on things and to consider all of the things you pointed out, before they got to Naruto all the way in the land of Iron, so the impulse argument for me is nil. So It's agreed we don't see eye to with Sakura's intentions during that arc. Lets just leave it at that , alright?

Edited by Phantom_999, 02 April 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Gravenimage]

which makes me wonder.....why DID she confess??? i mean by what sai said.....she knew naruto wouldnt listen to her.....so why even try that???

Simple Sakura knew she doesn't stand a chance against Sasuke, she went on a suicide mission in a attempt to kill him. This is one of the reasons she confessed to Naruto with the other of removing the burden of the POTLT. Her confession was some sort" last will" better to tell him now how she really feels about him before she dies and if she does survive she was willing to accept that Naruto will hate her for her choice in killing Sasuke. It's that simple and anyone with logic can see that, Sai told Naruto clearly she confessed to lessen the burden of the promise but he NEVER said that she was lying about loving him, neither does Kakashi or Yamato told him that she was lying. It was all Naruto who assumed she was lying to herself, he's the one with the huge wall of denial that she will always love Sasuke no matter, and his thinking that the Uchiha is the only one who can make her happy he has acknowledge which explains his selfless nature.

It still surprises me that to this day there are still people who think that she was" using his feelings" to stop chasing Sasuke. No matter what deeds Sakura does in the manga her bashing fans will always find a way to twist her actions into something negative. She confessed and try to kill Sasuke herself to remove the burden of the promise, to protect Naruto and she was willing to accept him to hate her. Instead those bashers see her as a selfish, manipulative, no good b**** etc and seriously it get so tiresome. Now with Hinata it's completely the opposite, she does something that was wrong and her fandom will see it positive turning her actions into something an angelic saint will do.

Edited by Gravenimage, 02 April 2012 - 12:28 PM.