9679 replies to this topic

[Rainy Daze]

Wahh there's a lot being discussed here. There were things I wanted to say, but as I continued to read they were all covered! Great! You guys are like super awesome investigators (: I like this thread!

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Wahh there's a lot being discussed here. There were things I wanted to say, but as I continued to read they were all covered! Great! You guys are like super awesome investigators (: I like this thread!

Yep. It is the greatest isn't it?

[T XD]

Yep. It is the greatest isn't it?

yup so much to discuss with a lot of excitement XD

[PachucoDesigns]

You know, I really do have to wonder how these pairing debates manage to come so far. And it really is only the unholy trinity of NaruSaku, SasuSaku, and NaruHina. The others are mildly discussed, maybe laughed over or pondered for a moment, but the moment passes. This has become one of the most brutal anime fandom wars I have ever seen, and the fire just continues to rage. They say that you blow out oil well fires with nitro. Well, I really don't think that's working in this case. lol I'm curious what's going to happen when the cat is finally let out of the bag, and the canon pairing is finally, clearly and undeniably stated. Will the war just finally die out, and we'll bury the casualties? Or will it take on a new face, arguing what should have been instead of what is. At this point, I think the biggest troll move Kishimoto could possibly make would be to end the entire series on a speculative note as to who ended up with whom. Then, there will never be an end to this.

I mean, really, on all fronts, it's basically just a bunch of wishful thinking, trying to rationalize theory from conclusion, and apologetics. No side really has a leg up, and yet they all think they do. I've been a long time away from the pairing debates, and I thought they might have died down by now. Seems that they've only intensified the closer we get to the climax of this series.

Personally, I am of the belief that the NaruSaku pairing will happen. Not because I like the idea. Not because I like Sakura, or because I think she deserves him. Not because I think Naruto deserves to be rewarded for his valiance. But because that is the only pairing out of this whole dispute that can happen without a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina and throwing the show's logic right out the window.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 31 March 2012 - 09:16 AM.

[T XD]

You know, I really do have to wonder how these pairing debates manage to come so far. And it really is only the unholy trinity of NaruSaku, SasuSaku, and NaruHina. The others are mildly discussed, maybe laughed over or pondered for a moment, but the moment passes. This has become one of the most brutal anime fandom wars I have ever seen, and the fire just continues to rage. They say that you blow out oil well fires with nitro. Well, I really don't think that's working in this case. lol I'm curious what's going to happen when the cat is finally let out of the bag, and the canon pairing is finally, clearly and undeniably stated. Will the war just finally die out, and we'll bury the casualties? Or will it take on a new face, arguing what should have been instead of what is. At this point, I think the biggest troll move Kishimoto could possibly make would be to end the entire series on a speculative note as to who ended up with whom. Then, there will never be an end to this.

I mean, really, on all fronts, it's basically just a bunch of wishful thinking, trying to rationalize theory from conclusion, and apologetics. No side really has a leg up, and yet they all think they do. I've been a long time away from the pairing debates, and I thought they might have died down by now. Seems that they've only intensified the closer we get to the climax of this series.

Personally, I am of the belief that the NaruSaku pairing will happen. Not because I like the idea. Not because I like Sakura, or because I think she deserves him. Not because I think Naruto deserves to be rewarded for his valiance. But because that is the only pairing out of this whole dispute that can happen without a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina and throwing the show's logic right out the window.

you know, i really do think and i'm sure of it that when the series ends and there is a real pairing at the end there will be some shippers that will make points and some comments about whom should really be with whom and i do think at the same time that kishi will leave us speculating which pairings happened if he didn't tell the readers the real ones but i doubt this could happen at the same time and for me NS is the only logical and clear pairing that will be in the future

Edited by T XD, 31 March 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[BlackLightning]

you know, i really do think and i'm sure of it that when the series ends and there is a real pairing at the end there will be some shippers that will make points and some comments about whom should really be with whom and i do think at the same time that kishi will leave us speculating which pairings happened if he didn't tell the readers the real ones but i doubt this could happen at the same time and for me NS is the only logical and clear pairing that will be in the future

THAT or there will be people who are jumping the bandwagons as in "I don't mind because its actually my (second/third) fav pairing" or prob even "I actually support this pairing the most but I have to hide because my friends support the other." Honestly? I think the best thing Kishi can do is just finish the damn thing without any pairing if anything so that I can imagine him sitting back, watching the neverending debate while sipping his tea, pointing at the screen and laugh his ass off. I'd pay to have a photo of him doing JUST THAT

[PachucoDesigns]

THAT or there will be people who are jumping the bandwagons as in "I don't mind because its actually my (second/third) fav pairing" or prob even "I actually support this pairing the most but I have to hide because my friends support the other." Honestly? I think the best thing Kishi can do is just finish the damn thing without any pairing if anything so that I can imagine him sitting back, watching the neverending debate while sipping his tea, pointing at the screen and laugh his ass off. I'd pay to have a photo of him doing JUST THAT

The ideal thing would be for people to look up at the sky, realize most of them are grown adults, and that it doesn't really matter because it isn't real. But, in this age of media, we love our happy fantasies. I mean, the way I figure it, if you're going to like or hate a pairing, then do so because of what it represents in reality, not because you want the characters to be happy together.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Let's cool down everyone. We're here for the same reason: to support NS. Friction and difference is always there, so, let's deal with it gracefully. I am positive that no one in this forum is trying to lable anyone or trying to accuse anyone.

The problem is that the posts in the last few pages have been addressed in this thread before, and I think to some of us, it is really tiring to answer the same doubts/questions with the same arguments...

Keep in mind that nothing is canon yet and the story is not finished yet.

I'm all cool.

50%? I do not see SS as 50% mind you. I see it MUCH less than that because Sakura does not seem happy thinking about Sasuke these days. Does she have feelings for him? I wouldn't doubt that. But Is it something she treasures and daydreams about fondly like she did before? Heck no. Not to mention she heard him Blatantly saying he would KILL everyone she cares about. Is that an ideal partner one would choose? Not unless you like that kind of thinking, which Sakura does not of course.For her to pick Sasuke after all this time would be for those shallow superficial feelings she had during early part I, and even if she reasoned out why she should be with him it will reflect her values as a person and it will not look good to the fans or Kishimoto. Now We already know Naruto would never see Sakura negatively but that's not the point. It's the message she's spreading to the audience that will receive negativity and what Bashers say about her will be justified AND true.

I like your logic compared to several members. I wish I had your confidence. But I'll keep it 50% because we are not out dark yet. I just hope Kishi does not derail a possible Sasu/Kar pairing because clearly Sasuke has never hold any love for a female since his mother was alive. I hope the good Sasuke won't change Sakura's personality to part 1 and finally pry Hinata out of Naruto's arm and declared to Hinata that Naruto is her man *smirks evilly*

Where did he hesitate finishing her off? Actually, nevermind. It doesn't matter if he hesitated finishing her off or not. He [b]didn't hesitate nearly murdering her.
Where did he see Karin as attractive? Are we kidding here?

Oh boy... That came out wrong. Hesitate was not the word to describe what I was saying. Apologizing for my lack of grammar. I meant to say it was more like a delay attack compare to Sakura. And I was being skeptical in the favor of NS with the SK pairing. Funny thing is I find people trolling here stating that Sakura has fallen in love with Naruto from chapter 3. Or maybe is a simple misunderstanding on my part ( not the very first time). But I troll with SK pairing--it's like everyone gets gloomy and touchy about the subject lol

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 31 March 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[lord287]

Same applies to relationships. Not even NaruSaku's parent parallels, JiraTsu and MinaKushi are exactly the same. How do I know this? I don't care too much for JiraTsu lol but it's supposedly the exact same as NaruSaku. Yeah nope. SasuKarin and SasuSaku may have their similarities but they aren't the same.

i tried to understand this podt of yours but could not can u explain in little more simpler way! And r u saying narusaku is different from jiratsu and minakushi or similar to them???

[Broken Figurine]

I'm saying they are similar but they still have enough differences to make them unique.

For example MinaKushi, as far as we know, didn't have a third party love interest to threaten the couple like JiraTsu and NaruSaku do/did.

And JiraTsu is different from NaruSaku in that Sakura is showing some pretty early signs of returning Naruto's feelings whereas Tsunade didn't show her feelings for Jiraiya until the very end.

But the main difference is that Minato, Naruto, and Jiraiya are all different characters and Sakura, Kushina, and Tsunade are all different characters so you can't really say the relationships are EXACTLY the same.

Same with SasuKarin and SasuSaku. For all of the similarities, Karin and Sakura are different characters. Like for example, Sasuke attacks Karin, Karin says she's done and makes it clear that if Sasuke wants her forgiveness he'll have to work for it. Sasuke does a bunch a kitten and it was still completely clear until very recently that Sakura would accept Sasuke back with open arms if he said a simple 'I'm sorry'. Sakura and Karin also act differently in similar situations and have different reactions to similar things etc.

So yeah I mean I like parallels and all, but it annoys me when people say one couple is interchangeable with the other. They're not. None of them are.

EDIT: It's like saying NaruIno would be EXACTLY like NaruSaku if you switched Sakura with Ino throughout the course of the manga. But it wouldn't be because Sakura and Ino are different characters and thus their relationships with Naruto would be different even if they went through the same situations. I dunno maybe it's because I love and respect the characters themselves and see them as two people in a relationship rather than just the relationship but that's what I think.

Sorry for all the EDITs. I'm tired lol

No, you're right, they are different pairings in different circumstances, which is why I will always point out that the Sasuke who treated Sakura a certain way was a lot less calm than the one Karin is exposed to, but even reading that manifesto it brings me to the same feeling of irritation that the evidence, in my opinion, favours their similarity. SasuKarin and SasuSaku are similar because few other pairings have had the same general make-up as others. They both fell in love with Part One Sasuke, they both idolized him, they both had feelings on a deeper level, they both noticed him going off on the deep end, they both had their hearts broken and nearly killed by him. I posted what I think was an incredibly blatant scene that showed hey, we're in the same situation. The characters connected in this way. Both SasuSaku and SasuKarin have little in the way of mutual development going on. Sasuke has shown his concern about both characters, but we've already debated a thousand times why for Sakura, it was a matter of companionship. If I were to read a SasuSaku manifesto you can bet there would be plenty of those scenes where they claim he had feelings for Sakura too.

I'm saying it's hard for me as an anti-SasuSaku fan to wholly embrace SasuKarin, because I see too many similarities vs the differences. In these pairings, Sasuke tends to be the issue, and he's a pretty common element in both. He is such a character that his romantic dealings are shady, so I find it quite odd how people who argue that hey, it doesn't work in one pairing, look to the other, who also has these vague indicators, and says "yeah, ttly liked/loved her". Not at this stage of development. He feels things for PEOPLE on a human level. At that point he didn't bother killing even innocent people, he just hurt them to the point they couldn't get up, so he was choosy about his violence. He was cool and collected. I don't know, Karin does have a different personality, maybe people just like the idea of them together better. I'm just of the mindset that it is really hard to disregard how similar these pairings are, and I haven't yet heard anyone talk about that. It's all insistent that this is some unique little situation SasuKarin has, when a significant scene like that, and then individual comparisons from a broader perspective, like the trends, there is a similar pattern. SasuSaku had that deeper relationship too, but we put it on a friendship basis because a lot of us claimed that SASUKE wasn't interested.

Liking them based on their individual little quirks is fine, it's why I can understand why some people prefer some pairings over others, regardless of how canon they are. If NaruSaku became canon, I doubt people would all suddenly come to prefer it. I understand why people like it, but I am saying that for those who argue its canon and validity, then have to go and re-examine their arguments against SasuSaku because a big part of it is that hey, he's too busy hunting down revenge. I suppose if you want to look at it that he's only been on friendly terms with Sakura, but is attracted (I still haven't seen proof of that) to Karin, fine, but that means all along he was indeed capable of "that" kind of relationship... even though he kept saying that he's not--oh Sasuke you hypocrite XD

I'm more in favour of looking at their similarities. I think there is more substantial evidence to be had there, and they are a unique pairing pair (oh that was fun) because no other have their scenario. NaruIno and NaruSaku would have kind of similar females, except Ino hasn't fangirled over him, been in love with him, managed to be on a team with him in the same "medic" type position, and nearly killed by him just as Sakura has. I know that SasuKarin and SasuSaku aren't exactly the same, and I know I overemphasized that point, but it was due to a lack of underemphasis that I've seen. There's all this analysis going on that I feel the obvious that is right there in people's face is overlooked. Karin and Sakura bonded over this. No relationship with Sasuke atm is healthy, or obvious, or anymore canon than the other because his character has really gone the oppposite way of that. SasuKarin fans forget that whole part about him disregarding bonds and I can't blame them considering he did something that to this day has some going "what?" when he went ahead and created another team. Okay there, buddy, so you are acknowledging you need people? Karin, and the rest of Team Not-7 did do something for him--they showed he had hope, which made his fall into darkness all the more apparent/significant, because just when you think he's showing his HUMANITY again, and then attempting to kill someone who loved him so much, and was loyal to him... We had that same effect when he tried to kill Sakura early part one, but we attributed it to his complete loss of comradary. Insert comrades again, the second wave of his descent is once again fresh, instead of being like "well what did you expect from a guy whose sworn off of everyone?".

That's what I think she and her team did for Sasuke, really. That's what I thought their purpose was for. Now to take that and put it into a pairing perspective...? I don't know, again it's very much what I think SasuSaku goes off of--taking his bonds to his teammates and molding it into a romance that just doesn't really have any two-sided basis. Can he develop these later, when all is said and done, and to Karin? Yeah, I've said it many times. The pairing isn't impossible, I'm just critical of it. To favour it means reworking the Sasuke issue of SasuSaku, you have to admit that. You can't say "he could never develop, therefore" in one, and then say "But for Karin, it's okay." Hey though, we're all pairing fans here, I get that. We all look at things with that bias and every scene, unfortunately, is vague enough to be interpreted one way or the other. NaruHina fans accuse NaruSaku fans of the same thing that I am accusing SasuKarin fans of, so I get it--it is possible, it is valid, and perhaps I was a bit too forceful in saying that you can't have one but not the other (SasuSaku vs SasuKarin), but I ask the fans to step back and appreciate another side of it, one I think just makes more sense, and that's how they are similar.

I mean, we could totally have a SakuKarin ending--
I kid. :3
SakuNaruKarin clearly.
Again, I kid.
SakuNaruSasuKarin is the obvious one here. Throw Hinata and Ino a bone every once and awhile, and we can't forget about Sai. He is that +1 to this party.

In the end though, we all agree that NaruSaku is the reigning pairing in our hearts (I think? I know some people say otherwise), so if we don't want Sasuke to die alone (we don't?) or get between these two (I think SasuSai is the closest to MUTUAL attraction there harharhar) then Karin is the only sane option. I just like to think of it as the pairing that's there when all has been said and done, because present Sasuke is too nyah for pairings. It's the alternative, and yes, the preferred option to SasuSaku, since we want our heroine to end up with Naruto. I just respect SasuKarin more on the basis of, again, its similarities to SasuSaku, and how those issues will have to be resolved by a changed Sasuke.

Right now both don't work for the same, hefty reasons, and when Karin even says "I'm done" that just shows the pairings problems. I see no mutual anything. They are not on equal footing(that is solely for Naruto and Sasuke), there is not this respect for her (how come nobody mentions Suigetsu saying "HAH, he told you!"), and Karin is not unique on the front of standing up against him. Even part one Sakura, in that moment we like, when she defended Naruto and was like "at least he's not a coward!". Karin is a more apparent Tsundere than Sakura is--you know, rough on the outside but being soft and loving on the inside? Sakura was trying to be nice and sweet on the outside but was actually temperamental and opinionated on the inside. Sakura and Karin's genuine feelings and personas are more alike.

I will give that Karin being an Uzumaki is a convenient way for there to be an Uchiha x Uzumaki pair that can reproduce. I will also give that now, after she has resolved being done with him, it would be interesting to see how she would go about accepting him again, if he's able to finally embrace the humanity that he's tried to shun but has crept up on him all this time, and see what mutual development for Sasuke actually is for once (that is not SasuNaru of course, who by far has the biggest edge XD).

Okay, hope this sounds a little better. I will fully admit I could be wrong, and Kishimoto could come out and be like "yeah, loved her all along" which would blow everything I've said out the water, but hey he could do that to any pairing. I'm just saying again and again right now the pairings don't have enough of that two-sided quality, and I look at it from the perspective that they are both in the same boat, so to speak, and it needs more to tip the favour to SasuKarin being a "healthy" (HAH not now that's for sure!) relationship where both parties are present and active (and not murderous).

[tricksie]

Hmmm...

Weighing in on the SasuSaku vs. SasuKarin debate:

My problem with the whole 'they are equal relationships/situations' arguments is that...they are, in fact, not. Regardless of Sasuke's feelings past or present toward Karin, the bond he shares with Sakura through Team 7 is older and, if we believe Kishimoto and Naruto, deeper. And Sakura's involvement in his Part 1 life is as central to Sasuke's bond as Naruto's rivalry.

The drive of the story is to restore Sasuke to his Part 1 bonds. And part of resolving that breech is going to be resolving the attack on Sakura (as well as Sakura's need to kill him). (However, I don't think Sakura would make an attempt on his life again, so I think that's resolved from her end. She would let Naruto handle it. However I think he would still make an attempt on her life if something could be gained from it.)

For Sasuke to be redeemed, he needs to not only mend fences with Naruto, but be accepted back into the village fold. If not, Naruto's going to look like a big idiot for pursuing this guy who has turned out to be a criminal — whether he is one in the end or not. If only Naruto knows he's changed his heart, the rest of the world will still see him as a criminal...so it makes Naruto's victory worthless.

And for him to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader, we are going to have to have some satisfactory resolution of his attempt on Sakura's life. She is both Naruto's love and the reader's window into the manga. And Sasuke apparently tried to snuff it out. So the reader's impression here is important. It needs to be resolved, and not just because of some weak SasuSaku argument, but because he tried to wipe out on of the primary characters.

If he had successfully killed Karin, as he intended, the story wouldn't have skipped a beat. If he had killed Sakura, the story would have derailed into Naruto's rage and grief, as well as the fury and vengeance of the rest of the Rookies and Tsunade.

So the weight and value of the two relationships is vastly different. It can be measured by their impact on the story. Sakura and Karin are not interchangeable, neither in their impact in Sasuke's life nor on the rest of the story.

Ultimately, Naruto may have excused away Sasuke's attempt on Sakura's life, but the audience is not on board. For Sasuke to be redeemed in the end, these injustices will have to be atoned for. If he explains his actions with Karin or not...nothing changes. But if he patches things up with Naruto and still harbors murderous feelings for Sakura and everyone else...then he's not truly redeemed.

Another thing, I often see the argument of weighing Karin's relationship nuances with Sasuke against Sakura's, and I'll just say that though Sasuke may have reacted to protect both, the motives of the girl's feelings and how they developed from them is very different. Sakura came from a place of genuine hope and team bonding, with all the youthful flaws that went along with it. Karin's came from an opportunistic place. Sakura's personal development from her relationship was to strive to work harder; Karin had no personal development from her relationship with Sasuke. She is shown pointedly as very much the same person she's always been. You get the feeling she's moving on and not looking back.

Yet, Sakura still can't kill the boy she once knew. All these years later. And after the murder attempt, thinks of him with regret. So the relationship still weighs on her. Again, this illustrates that the Team 7 bonds run deeper than the other bonds that have followed.

Anyway, I have a feeling that Kishimoto will resolve the breech in Team 7 trust by showing some flashback exonerating Sasuke in that moment with the raised dagger. Either he had to act that way because Madara was there, or that he could feel Naruto rushing in on him.

At this point, to me, resolving the murder issue with Sasuke is as important as resolving the bench scene with Naruto. Sakura thinks of Sasuke with pain. She will not be able to forgive him and move on unless that issue is resolved. And the Sasuke issue is clearly a cloud hanging over her relationship with Naruto. In a perfect world, when someone asks Sakura about the man in her life, she should be able to answer without any regrets. Until she can, Sasuke stands in the way, however subtly, of her happiness with Naruto.

That's why SasuSaku is vastly different from SasuKarin.

Edited by tricksie, 31 March 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Hmmm...

Weighing in on the SasuSaku vs. SasuKarin debate:

My problem with the whole 'they are equal relationships/situations' arguments is that...they are, in fact, not. Regardless of Sasuke's feelings past or present toward Karin, the bond he shares with Sakura through Team 7 is older and, if we believe Kishimoto and Naruto, deeper. And Sakura's involvement in his Part 1 life is as central to Sasuke's bond as Naruto's rivalry.

The drive of the story is to restore Sasuke to his Part 1 bonds. And part of resolving that breech is going to be resolving the attack on Sakura (as well as Sakura's need to kill him). (However, I don't think Sakura would make an attempt on his life again, so I think that's resolved from her end. She would let Naruto handle it. However I think he would still make an attempt on her life if something could be gained from it.)

For Sasuke to be redeemed, he needs to not only mend fences with Naruto, but be accepted back into the village fold. If not, Naruto's going to look like a big idiot for pursuing this guy who has turned out to be a criminal — whether he is one in the end or not. If only Naruto knows he's changed his heart, the rest of the world will still see him as a criminal...so it makes Naruto's victory worthless.

And for him to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader, we are going to have to have some satisfactory resolution of his attempt on Sakura's life. She is both Naruto's love and the reader's window into the manga. And Sasuke apparently tried to snuff it out. So the reader's impression here is important. It needs to be resolved, and not just because of some weak SasuSaku argument, but because he tried to wipe out on of the primary characters.

If he had successfully killed Karin, as he intended, the story wouldn't have skipped a beat. If he had killed Sakura, the story would have derailed into Naruto's rage and grief, as well as the fury and vengeance of the rest of the Rookies and Tsunade.

So the weight and value of the two relationships is vastly different. It can be measured by their impact on the story. Sakura and Karin are not interchangeable, neither in their impact in Sasuke's life nor on the rest of the story.

Ultimately, Naruto may have excused away Sasuke's attempt on Sakura's life, but the audience is not on board. For Sasuke to be redeemed in the end, these injustices will have to be atoned for. If he explains his actions with Karin or not...nothing changes. But if he patches things up with Naruto and still harbors murderous feelings for Sakura and everyone else...then he's not truly redeemed.

Another thing, I often see the argument of weighing Karin's relationship nuances with Sasuke against Sakura's, and I'll just say that though Sasuke may have reacted to protect both, the motives of the girl's feelings and how they developed from them is very different. Sakura came from a place of genuine hope and team bonding, with all the youthful flaws that went along with it. Karin's came from an opportunistic place. Sakura's personal development from her relationship was to strive to work harder; Karin had no personal development from her relationship with Sasuke. She is shown pointedly as very much the same person she's always been. You get the feeling she's moving on and not looking back.

Yet, Sakura still can't kill the boy she once knew. All these years later. And after the murder attempt, thinks of him with regret. So the relationship still weighs on her. Again, this illustrates that the Team 7 bonds run deeper than the other bonds that have followed.

Anyway, I have a feeling that Kishimoto will resolve the breech in Team 7 trust by showing some flashback exonerating Sasuke in that moment with the raised dagger. Either he had to act that way because Madara was there, or that he could feel Naruto rushing in on him.

At this point, to me, resolving the murder issue with Sasuke is as important as resolving the bench scene with Naruto. Sakura thinks of Sasuke with pain. She will not be able to forgive him and move on unless that issue is resolved. And the Sasuke issue is clearly a cloud hanging over her relationship with Naruto. In a perfect world, when someone asks Sakura about the man in her life, she should be able to answer without any regrets. Until she can, Sasuke stands in the way, however subtly, of her happiness with Naruto.

That's why SasuSaku is vastly different from SasuKarin.

I agree with all of this. In order for Sasuke to be fully redeemed, he needs to somehow make it up to all the people he betrayed which won't be easy for him. Sasuke betrayed many
people and you can't simply wish that alway with a simple sorry. For instance, him being accepted back into the village will be especially difficult, since his former home has forsaken him as "a criminal/ someone who needs to be elliminated" but he does deserve it right now. I have already seen the signs in his fight with Itachi against Kabuto, that he is slowly regaining pieces of his sanity
and former self before Itachi's secrets were revealed. But of course Naruto will be the turning point.

The Team 7 bond is still very deep and even Sasuke hasn't severed it fully. Really the Team 7 bond is probably a major reason why I don't want Sasuke dead. Your analyis on SasuKarin vs. SasuSaku I agree with.

[Broken Figurine]

Hmmm...

Weighing in on the SasuSaku vs. SasuKarin debate:

My problem with the whole 'they are equal relationships/situations' arguments is that...they are, in fact, not. Regardless of Sasuke's feelings past or present toward Karin, the bond he shares with Sakura through Team 7 is older and, if we believe Kishimoto and Naruto, deeper. And Sakura's involvement in his Part 1 life is as central to Sasuke's bond as Naruto's rivalry.

The drive of the story is to restore Sasuke to his Part 1 bonds. And part of resolving that breech is going to be resolving the attack on Sakura (as well as Sakura's need to kill him). (However, I don't think Sakura would make an attempt on his life again, so I think that's resolved from her end. She would let Naruto handle it. However I think he would still make an attempt on her life if something could be gained from it.)

For Sasuke to be redeemed, he needs to not only mend fences with Naruto, but be accepted back into the village fold. If not, Naruto's going to look like a big idiot for pursuing this guy who has turned out to be a criminal — whether he is one in the end or not. If only Naruto knows he's changed his heart, the rest of the world will still see him as a criminal...so it makes Naruto's victory worthless.

And for him to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader, we are going to have to have some satisfactory resolution of his attempt on Sakura's life. She is both Naruto's love and the reader's window into the manga. And Sasuke apparently tried to snuff it out. So the reader's impression here is important. It needs to be resolved, and not just because of some weak SasuSaku argument, but because he tried to wipe out on of the primary characters.

If he had successfully killed Karin, as he intended, the story wouldn't have skipped a beat. If he had killed Sakura, the story would have derailed into Naruto's rage and grief, as well as the fury and vengeance of the rest of the Rookies and Tsunade.

So the weight and value of the two relationships is vastly different. It can be measured by their impact on the story. Sakura and Karin are not interchangeable, neither in their impact in Sasuke's life nor on the rest of the story.

Ultimately, Naruto may have excused away Sasuke's attempt on Sakura's life, but the audience is not on board. For Sasuke to be redeemed in the end, these injustices will have to be atoned for. If he explains his actions with Karin or not...nothing changes. But if he patches things up with Naruto and still harbors murderous feelings for Sakura and everyone else...then he's not truly redeemed.

Another thing, I often see the argument of weighing Karin's relationship nuances with Sasuke against Sakura's, and I'll just say that though Sasuke may have reacted to protect both, the motives of the girl's feelings and how they developed from them is very different. Sakura came from a place of genuine hope and team bonding, with all the youthful flaws that went along with it. Karin's came from an opportunistic place. Sakura's personal development from her relationship was to strive to work harder; Karin had no personal development from her relationship with Sasuke. She is shown pointedly as very much the same person she's always been. You get the feeling she's moving on and not looking back.

Yet, Sakura still can't kill the boy she once knew. All these years later. And after the murder attempt, thinks of him with regret. So the relationship still weighs on her. Again, this illustrates that the Team 7 bonds run deeper than the other bonds that have followed.

Anyway, I have a feeling that Kishimoto will resolve the breech in Team 7 trust by showing some flashback exonerating Sasuke in that moment with the raised dagger. Either he had to act that way because Madara was there, or that he could feel Naruto rushing in on him.

At this point, to me, resolving the murder issue with Sasuke is as important as resolving the bench scene with Naruto. Sakura thinks of Sasuke with pain. She will not be able to forgive him and move on unless that issue is resolved. And the Sasuke issue is clearly a cloud hanging over her relationship with Naruto. In a perfect world, when someone asks Sakura about the man in her life, she should be able to answer without any regrets. Until she can, Sasuke stands in the way, however subtly, of her happiness with Naruto.

That's why SasuSaku is vastly different from SasuKarin.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I am more in favour of having Sakura weigh in more on Sasuke's life because yes, as a reader with my own personal biases I care more about the team 7 bond than I do his bonds to Karin, and yes, if she died the story could have moved on, but Sakura' impact would have been far greater because she is the main heroine, and I do care more about her feelings being resolved, and team seven's issues being resolved, than I do the romantic pairings with Sasuke. The team seven triangle fit more with the story than the outliers, SasuKarin and NaruHina do, because they are outside this big focus. I support NaruSaku as the only pairing I really ship because I feel it is the only pairing that has actually shown that mutual attraction within our big, primary characters.

Same is not the "same" as similar, and I think from if we're looking at it from a romantic perspective they are, but I am beginning to agree with your post and BabyVee's that they're not quite as interchangeable as I felt them at first, in my more exasperated state over the pairing, but I do believe a big thing between them is that Karin and Sakura did bond over similar situations. It's when you delve deeper and consider their roles in the story and start to really weigh in the details that you can see and debate every which way about how different they are. That's probably what turns me away from these pairings where there isn't that more open, mutual feelings.

Bringing it back to NaruSaku, we too have one character, Sakura, who is iffy about what her feelings actually are. We know Naruto loves her, is attracted to her, would like to make her happy (even at the expense of giving her to another) but what of Sakura's feelings? Well, compared to the other iffy people in our popular pairings (NaruHina, SasuKarin/Saku) she does show her feelings, and her attraction for Naruto. She blushes when he's doing something impressive. She is always thinking about his well being. Yamato and Sai have commented on her feelings for him, and Naruto doesn't treat her with this hero worship. They are the ones that stand on more equal footing when they are alone together. There is a chemistry between them that isn't as vague as the others, which I just prefer. Then when I ask for the same for NaruHina, SasuSaku/Karin it's not the same, and I do believe like Tricksie pointed out a big part of it is because they aren't the primary characters who are at the heart of the story. It has always been about Naruto and Sasuke, and Sakura is closely linked to the both and is a character more suitable to be paired than Sasuke is, and so is Naruto. Thus, NaruSaku just is more appealing...to me. XD

That's probably where my whole "they are similar" stems from, because I have the same sort of feeling toward NaruHina as well, even though the situations are different, but I look more positively on the bonding scene between Sakura and Karin which makes me feel they understand the main situation better than Hinata does for Naruto. I think Karin does understand Sasuke, I'm not sure that she does more than Sakura, but again, agreeing with Tricksie, her character hasn't changed too much as a result of Sasuke, and she could more readily move on from him and be done with her role in the story than Sakura could. Does this mean that Karin won't be with Sasuke? Again, no, but she would be more likely to move on from him, whereas Sakura's feelings are too deeply invested not to be part of his life anymore. Sakura wouldn't be able to move on to Naruto if this whole Sasuke issue is resolved, but Karin could start her life up again. We don't know what she has resolved now, I'm interested in seeing it.

Maybe I'm just secretly more of a friendshipper than I am a pairing shipper XD Sakura and Karin could be good friends gaiz! Sakura and Sasuke make good friends (after he is "redeemed" if he is). NaruSaku is an awesome pairing! XD Yeah, I'm learning more about myself and my tastes, thanks guys XD. It's true, I like pairings that have that touch of mutual comradery and affection, which I don't think the other pairings equally measure as NaruSaku does. Maybe that's just from what I've seen, and maybe if I go back and reread after the manga is all done and our speculations put more or less to rest, I could see the SasuKarin side.... but hopefully I'm not fuming that some other pairing happened instead of my OTP. XD

[Don-kun]

I need to take this out my chest.
I'm a die hard NaruSaku fan but I have to be honest, with the latest revelation I start building up some negative hope like others here...
What keep me strong is the fact that Naruto likes Sakura and she deeply care about him, plusYamato speech and that confession, why the confession? I just cannot see why on earth Sakura will do something like that if she didn't have any romanti feeling for him, if she were joking about loving him something I really doubt and the fact Sakura would actually risk hurting him by doing so will be something very cruel by her Naruto would be so crushed, so only for that simply matter I really doubt that she did have the nerve to break his heart in a moment like that is really hard to beleive, that for Sakura will be the worstest betreyal and in the worst way possible.

I think that you have to be a real Sakura hater to beleive that she will hurt Naruto that way even with the fact that Kishi and his love for Sasuke really help a lot in putting Sakura in a bad spot.

That fact plus all the NS development is what made me still belive in NaruSaku after all the craps the author is writing about Hinata loves for Naruto in the most Recents chapters.

[catsi563]

Dont get me wrong I actually do see and somewhat agree with where BFs coming from. I would merely weigh inon one thought though. We talk about how Sakura has this weight on Sasukes life and Yet I see one fact being ignored,.

In the Great reunion chapter Sasukes acknowledgement of this so called weight is reduced to a fat whopping one word. "Sakura huh" I say one word because can you really call what amounts to a monosyllabic grunt a word?

Her literaly sees her and dismisses her form his mind almost as soon as Naruto appears. Naruto on the other hand he practicaly hugs in greeting and engages in a full on conversation with.

Now Karin on the other hand there is something that again gets forgotten.

And it is this. We have a 2 and half year time skip in which we know very little about and in which once again no less then Suigetsu implies that Karin ""Ddi something"" with sasuke. We also ahve Kabuto in the latest chapter impliing amore then casual relation ship as well, not specificaly outright I grant you but its a case once again of the wording being curiously chosen for the adversarial situation.

I very much would like to get some isnight into this 2 and half year jump and whatn occured there in because if it has the signifigance I think it might, I think we could all be in for a shock.

the wording here is very specific, and I stand again on one indisputable fact. In a manga based on bonds and connections. Sasuke whose suppsoed strongest bond is with a guy he nearly killed __ie Naruto-- states VERY clearly and succinctly that Karin is the One he NEEDs.

That in and of it self is a very signifigant moment in the story. Sasuke Mr. I dont need anyone bonds are for losers. States very clearly that he Needs Karin. Not her abilities. Needs her. this is a specific and very interesting choice of words no matter how you view the actual pairing.

its as signifigant in ways as Naruto saying I like people Like you. Not I like you. its a very specific choice of wording and phrase that tells us something specific about the character. in this case naruto likes people like Hinata, which by proxy includes other underdogs Lee, Sakura, and so on.

In Sasukes case he is stating that he needs a specific person. and stating that person by name.

Maybe I'm just secretly more of a friendshipper than I am a pairing shipper XD Sakura and Karin could be good friends gaiz! Sakura and Sasuke make good friends (after he is "redeemed" if he is). NaruSaku is an awesome pairing! XD Yeah, I'm learning more about myself and my tastes, thanks guys XD. It's true, I like pairings that have that touch of mutual comradery and affection, which I don't think the other pairings equally measure as NaruSaku does. Maybe that's just from what I've seen, and maybe if I go back and reread after the manga is all done and our speculations put more or less to rest, I could see the SasuKarin side.... but hopefully I'm not fuming that some other pairing happened instead of my OTP. XD

Oh I definatley agree Sakura and Karin can and I think WILL be friends at the end of the story. heck I wrote an entire --smidge funny-- story about it.

[merryGOflava]

well after reading 4 pages of sasusaku and sasukarin stuff....

i have to say none seem logical.

and karin should try suigetsu



sasuke doesnt like any of them....BUT i guess....he liked sakura a little better ONLY because he knew her longer and wasnt TOO crazy on revenge back then

so yea

i dont know if karin will give sasuke a second chance.

[FoolishYoungling]

karin should try suigetsu

Suigestu is evil too.. Karin has to give her clan a good name, or just die.. can't have the Uzumaki clan looking dirty, plus, everyone has to have a climax.. Karin, Sakura, Jugo, Suigestu, Tobi, Kabuto, Sasuke.. etc.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Suigestu is evil too.. Karin has to give her clan a good name, or just die.. can't have the Uzumaki clan looking dirty, plus, everyone has to have a climax.. Karin, Sakura, Jugo, Suigestu, Tobi, Kabuto, Sasuke.. etc.

Well Suigetsu is evil but not pure evil. He's the type of "funny evil" that doesn't seem evil until he threatens to kill someone. I don't normally like evil characters, but Suigetsu cracks me up.
Gotta love his personality

Sasuke needs a resolution with both Team Taka and Team 7, as well as finally stop being in league with Tobi. They do all need a climax. I wonder though, will Karin ever become a leaf ninja? She's
less evil out of all of them and seeing her joining Konoha I love for some reason. But then, again, I do like Karin's personality.

[merryGOflava]

Suigestu is evil too.. Karin has to give her clan a good name, or just die.. can't have the Uzumaki clan looking dirty, plus, everyone has to have a climax.. Karin, Sakura, Jugo, Suigestu, Tobi, Kabuto, Sasuke.. etc.

hes not totally evil he wouldnt stab her thats for sure XD i think suigetsu has a good heart, i mean he did risk his life for the team at one point.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

hes not totally evil he wouldnt stab her thats for sure XD i think suigetsu has a good heart, i mean he did risk his life for the team at one point.

Exactly.