9679 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Well, SS is one of those speculations that has a 50% of happening. Because, if Sasuke becomes a good guy in the end. How much will this have a impact on her relationship with Naruto if she chooses Sasuke over him? Yet I feel no matter how many sins Sakura may commit in the future like for an example; breaking his heart with sleeping with many guys. Naruto will not forsaken her. She can cheat on him many times as she wants, and Naruto would never resent her. Naruto after all is mister nice guy and a messiah.

To my beleive, Sakura has a lot to make amends to Naruto before deciding to hook up with Sasuke. Otherise she will not only be bashed by fans but disowned by her peers and own people.

But let's look at the other 50% chance that there won't be a SS ending the manga. There is this unexpected pairing ally of ours.,. SasukexKarin. On other forums, some NS fans are speculating that Sasuke sudden surprise of her heritage may lead Sasuke to marry More than restoring his clan. The Uzumaki Bloodline will be beneficial for his children, but the main thing is that Karin being an Uzumaki will help him be legally by law a relative of Naruto's. See, he has two reason to marry Karin while all the other girls only has one.

A good Sasuke would do everything in his power to prevent Naruto from suffering. I bet he knows Naruto loves Sakura, which is why I think this will be one of the reason he won't date Sakura because of Naruto's sake. Second reason is that she is a commoner born without special abilities and blood limit, which he won't benefit from. That is my saying^_^

50%? I do not see SS as 50% mind you. I see it MUCH less than that because Sakura does not seem happy thinking about Sasuke these days. Does she have feelings for him? I wouldn't doubt that. But Is it something she treasures and daydreams about fondly like she did before? Heck no. Not to mention she heard him Blatantly saying he would KILL everyone she cares about. Is that an ideal partner one would choose? Not unless you like that kind of thinking, which Sakura does not of course.For her to pick Sasuke after all this time would be for those shallow superficial feelings she had during early part I, and even if she reasoned out why she should be with him it will reflect her values as a person and it will not look good to the fans or Kishimoto. Now We already know Naruto would never see Sakura negatively but that's not the point. It's the message she's spreading to the audience that will receive negativity and what Bashers say about her will be justified AND true.

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 March 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Broken Figurine]

I'm not a Sasukarin shipper, but when I see a writer doing things that points toward a couple, even if it's not a ship that interests me, I will point out what is actually there in the manga. As catsi has said before there are, unlike with Sakura, actually manga canon evidence that Sasuke was attracted to and had some feelings for Karin. Note, the only people he's acknowledged that his bond to them "distracted" him from his goal is Naruto and Karin. He uses nearly the same words too when he talks about that to them. Sasuke's reaction to Karin's come on when they are alone is what I'm talking about when I say attraction- note how unlike with Ino and Sakura when they were fangirling him, Sasuke reacts with anger, disgust or indifference. With Karin he stutters that she's "too close". He never really shows a negative response to her come ons, the most "negative" he gets is a "this is not the time for that" type reaction. Note as well Suigetsu's comment about what he noticed about Karin and Sasuke....

Is it really fair to compare Sasuke when he was 13 to the Sasuke of later times? You can say that he didn't show disgust, but I don't remember attraction. That's a bit of a stretch for me. He also called anything that distracted him away from his goals as a distraction, and whatever he may have felt for her, much like whatever bond he felt for Sakura way back when (unless you'll just deny there was one, which I'm against) also disappeared in the wake of other circumstances. The only person he has shown to acknowledge on a deeper level, beyond his own personal agenda, is Naruto. The Sasuke that was calm about Karin was an overall calmer, cooler character than his thirteen year old self. At that point in the manga it was his lack of emotion that defined him, and when he had "feelings" for Team Not-7, who did he think about? Team 7. Karin's attraction was always one-sided, and the evidence that SasuKarin fans give to dispell that is a tad bit too vague for me. "I need you." Is very much focused towards what he actually needs her for--to hunt down Itachi. It's always been about Itachi. Then, what did he do later? He tried to kill her.

I don't see why, as people opposed to SasuSaku because he's "not good" for her, it's OK for SasuKarin. I've heard the very honest opinion that they would rather Karin go to Sasuke than Sakura, which is why I think a lot of NaruSaku fans do support SasuKarin, even though it is very, very similar to SasuSaku. I'm more suprised you didn't draw the parallel and the significance of when Sakura and Karin were crying together. They are both in the same position. SasuKarin IS SasuSaku in principle.

Sasuke had said he "needed" both of them at one point
Sasuke had shown concern about both of them being hurt (Sakura in more instances)
Sasuke had shown being OK about being in contact with them
Sasuke had saved them both at one point (Karin bear, Sakura via cursed seal)
Sasuke tried to kill them both.
Sasuke betrayed them both.

I've heard SasuKarin fans say that they prefer Karin because she "doesn't take as much garbage" from Sasuke as Sakura does. The problem is, Karin is older than twelve year old Sakura was. Sakura has also shown anger and has yelled at Sasuke, but instead of saying "YOU IDIOT!" as Karin has, her points have been more significant because she doesn't take Sasuke's signs of betrayal, such as when he insults Naruto. She's not weaker in spirit than Karin in. Karin also doesn't "know him" better than Sakura does. Karin had hero worship of him--the reason why she fell in love with him was because he saved her from a bear. It wasn't their similar pasts, there was no flashback of anything else. She wanted to "see him smile again". She fell in love with the thirteen year old boy, just as Sakura did, and been manipulated and betrayed by him when he grew up. Do you know what she said?

"I'm done with him"

Yes, there is possibility of them being together. It's just I don't see how SasuKarin was more significant than SasuSaku. Given the Team 7 focus of the majority of the manga, which may be my own bias but I prefer that side of the story than Team Change Their Name that was formed so contradictory to Sasuke's whole spiel about "no bond, don't need anybody" mantra he fed early on. I don't like the downplay of Sakura's involvement in Sasuke's life, over Karin's supposed superiority. Can they develop a relationship? Sure. Sasuke has to change though. I don't believe he's shown any romantic interest in anybody. It's always been about Naruto and Itachi for him. Karin, I would hope, wouldn't just run back into his arms. I don't think she should be the one to play in his "redemption", because that cheapens Team Seven's role in it. No, if there is interaction between them, it should be after he's changed. However, that being said, in the same vein that possibility stands with Sakura too. If he's able to change and be worthy of love, who's to say that Karin is the more likely one?

Because we are NaruSaku fans. However, if NaruHina were to happen, so we're just comparing SasuSaku and SasuKarin, wouldn't the odds of Sakura going to Sasuke be balanced? Would he necessarily choose Sakura over Karin? Maybe because Karin is an Uzumaki. It still feels like a shallow comparison. Then you have the significant weight of our main heroine's feelings, which I think due to her importance in the story takes precedence over Karin's.

It's a tricky subject. I don't ship either, because their issues are the same and anyone who says otherwise I don't feel is being honest in comparing the two. I don't like the idea of it happening in the manga, even though it may happen, probably will if Sasuke lives and we get the NaruSaku ending, but it is still very much SasuSaku to me, and it defeats our objections to that pairing. We've all said "SasuSaku can't/shouldn't happen because of this", but if SasuKarin is possible than so is SasuSaku. That's my beef with the pairing.

[Dragunov]

SasuKarin wont happen. The pairing was one sided to begin with. After her closeness to death by Sasuke's hand, Karin gave up. So, its pretty much obvious that the paring isnt going to happen.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I know this is suppose to be a debate for NaruSaku but I would like to debate the AntiSasuKarin points .

Contrary to popular belief, it wouldn't KILL a character to forgive someone else. Yes Sasuke has done some horrid things but he hasn't done anything irreversible. If he works for it, I'm sure he could earn Karin's forgiveness. And yes I mean WORK for it. It would be an insult to Karin's character if she forgave him from the get-go I agree, but not if time passes and Sasuke proves that he wants her forgiveness.

Ever heard of the phrase 'time heals all wounds'? Besides they're teenagers.

Also I don't think it would be a MASSIVE U-turn because the recent fight with Itcahi shows Sasuke slowly regaining his sanity it looks like.

He did it because the person he wanted to kill was RIGHT there. Think about his mindset at the time. The person responsible for the massacre of his clan AND the person who he believed hurt his beloved brother was standing right there and could be easily killed.

Sasuke, despite everything, is still human. And some humans have less self-control than others. Sasuke has proved time and time again that when he's angry, he will forget everything except the object of his anger. That's what happened there.

He didn't attack Karin for the sake of attacking Karin. He attacked Karin because he wanted to kill Danzo and she unfortunately happened to be in the way. You can tell he wasn't thinking right because of the ridiculous excuse he gave(NO ninja would EVER harm their medic. Sasuke being a genius should know this so it's entirely possible he was trying to justify in his own mind why it would be okay to hurt someone he cared about. He did the same with Naruto back in part 1 when he said he needed to kill him to kill his brother. See?).

Seriously replace Karin with anyone else including Naruto or a blank wall and Sasuke would've done the same thing. I think of it as purposely forgetting she was there . Think of it this way, what if Karin hadn't been standing in the way? Would Sasuke have abandoned her then? Probably not.

And what exactly does his expression have to do with anything? He looked pretty calm during Team 7's first reunion when he was trying to kill them. He looked calm when he was stabbing Naruto at the VoTE. He looked calm cutting up the Zetsu's. What is your point here?

I'd actually say SasuSaku's is worse because at least that couple is also threatened by Sakura's feelings for Naruto. Sakura has someone else to fall for. Who would Karin have?

They're teenagers. He almost murdered her, but it's fine because he's just a teenager, after all. If Karin fully forgives him at ANY point in time, then it will kill respect for her. By all means, get with the guy who treated you like an ant. Wonderful message.

It would be a massive U-turn because, for one, his recent calmness doesn't make sense at ALL. It's out of nowhere. He went from absolutely psycho to not insane in a matter of one or two chapters. That's outrageous and rushed characterization.

You're missing the point entirely. You're justifying what he did, saying "oh, it's ok because revenge is totally worth killing those you supposedly care about". What his current mindset was at the time doesn't matter; he did it. It'd be outright foolish and stupid of Karin to ever consider getting with him again.

My point is that, at those times listed, those were his enemies (except for the Zetsu, but that's easily explainable and, honestly, a laughable comparison. Sasuke was off the deep end and didn't have any reason to give two s**ts about Zetsu). Karin was his ally, yet he nearly killed her with absolutely no hesitation.

Who would Karin have? Hopefully, Karin would have common sense and a functioning brain.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Didn't he stabbed a chidori to Naruto too and yet he still feels attached to him, I wouldn't be surprise if he's still attach to Karin as well.

Actaully, Sasuke never hit Naruto with the Chidori. It was his albow that lunged into Naruto. But I do agree Sasuke display his feelings for Karin in the previous chapter, and to why he hesistated in finishing off Karin when she was weeping, but he surelly never hesitated with Sakura. He still sees her as an annoying fangirl versus Karin being an attractive woman maybe because of Karin's red hair resembles tomato color. And he loves tomatoes.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Actaully, Sasuke never hit Naruto with the Chidori. It was his albow that lunged into Naruto. But I do agree Sasuke display his feelings for Karin in the previous chapter, and to why he hesistated in finishing off Karin when she was weeping, but he surelly never hesitated with Sakura. He still sees her as an annoying fangirl versus Karin being an attractive woman maybe because of Karin's red hair resembles tomato color. And he loves tomatoes.

Where did he hesitate finishing her off? Actually, nevermind. It doesn't matter if he hesitated finishing her off or not. He didn't hesitate nearly murdering her.
Where did he see Karin as attractive? Are we kidding here?

[Darth Krypt]

I think people who say Sasuke have feelings for Karin are grasping at straws. What I see when Karin is seducing Sasuke is just that, yet another girl trying to go for him.

[ciardha]

well actually that true but what suigetsu said really do intrigues me

Yeah, that added more canon weight to the sasukarin argument. And the way Sasuke reacted with the most strong emotions to Kabuto's casual mention that Karin happens to be an Uzumaki just didn't come across as a throw away scene either... Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Kishimoto keeps building in things that make Sasuke's bond to Karin more and more comparable to his bond to Naruto. I didn't ship it because I knew from what Kishimoto was saying in interviews and in the manga where Sasuke was heading would end up being a bad thing for Karin, but I could tell from the start Kishimoto was building something between them.

Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Don't be so quick to dismiss sasukarin shippers like catsi. I don't, because Kishimoto has indeed continued to make story points that show the difference between Sakura's one sided crush and the build up of the emotional connection between Sasuke and Karin.

I also will point out about how catsi was the first to be certain of the significance of the bench scene for Naruto and Sakura. I thought it was just a minor point, that yes would need to be addressed by Naruto to Sakura, but not a absolute core point of plot. Then we had the Kushina arc and the complete parallel with how Minato found the very physical point that others tormented Kushina about beautiful, and his stating so was the final point that made Kushina fall in love with Minato, and what she says to Naruto when he calls his mother's hair beautiful. As soon as that arc came out I knew catsi had totally called the importance of the bench scene. Naruto will absolutely have to tell Sakura it was himself henged as Sasuke. Sakura already is in love with Naruto, but his confession (and likely finally following through with that forehead kiss he wanted) will help free Sakura from some of the pain and shame she feels about her remnants of her bond to Sasuke. Knowing it was actually Naruto that told her she had a beautiful forehead will help her let go of a mistaken idea (due to Naruto's henging as Sasuke) that Sasuke had told her that.

Catsi tends to catch subtle plot points quite well, and yeah I do tend to agree with catsi that Karin will play a role in Sasuke's likely redemption. If Kishimoto doesn't have Sasuke die saving Naruto (thus giving Sasuke a final redemption), catsi's idea about Karin's role in Sasuke's redemption will likely happen. I'll let catsi go into the details on that, and answer Broken Figurine's post- because I think it's better answered by a sausukarin shipper than a nonshipper like me, who just happens to agree that sasukarin looks like canon because Kishimoto showed some mutual attraction between them, and keeps dropping in things that adds weight to that. I'm just saying don't casually dismiss it, there's manga canon evidence...

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I never once liked the SasuKarin pairing, really becasue it reminded me way too much of SasuSaku. For those of you that say Sasuke liked Karin romantically, what
proof do we have of that cause I'm drawing a blank here. Sasuke displayed indifference and annoyance towards Karin, just like he did with Sakura and every other
girl. It was always one-sided and the most we saw from him was concern over her well-being, but nothing much else. I never hated this pairing as much as SasuSaku
(Because at least Sasuke had respect for her, and Karin never had a false, perfect image of Sasuke like Part 1 Sakura did. Not to mention she was never afraid to insult
him when he did something stupid.), but once Sasuke stabbed Karin I was mad and hate this pairing just as much as SasuSaku.

I have difficultly seeing Sasuke in any romantic relationship. He just seems too OOC for him and I would much prefer Sasuke to be single at the end.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 31 March 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Yeah, that added more canon weight to the sasukarin argument. And the way Sasuke reacted with the most strong emotions to Kabuto's casual mention that Karin happens to be an Uzumaki just didn't come across as a throw away scene either... Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Kishimoto keeps building in things that make Sasuke's bond to Karin more and more comparable to his bond to Naruto. I didn't ship it because I knew from what Kishimoto was saying in interviews and in the manga where Sasuke was heading would end up being a bad thing for Karin, but I could tell from the start Kishimoto was building something between them.

Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Don't be so quick to dismiss sasukarin shippers like catsi. I don't, because Kishimoto has indeed continued to make story points that show the difference between Sakura's one sided crush and the build up of the emotional connection between Sasuke and Karin.

I also will point out about how catsi was the first to be certain of the significance of the bench scene for Naruto and Sakura. I thought it was just a minor point, that yes would need to be addressed by Naruto to Sakura, but not a absolute core point of plot. Then we had the Kushina arc and the complete parallel with how Minato found the very physical point that others tormented Kushina about beautiful, and his stating so was the final point that made Kushina fall in love with Minato, and what she says to Naruto when he calls his mother's hair beautiful. As soon as that arc came out I knew catsi had totally called the importance of the bench scene. Naruto will absolutely have to tell Sakura it was himself henged as Sasuke. Sakura already is in love with Naruto, but his confession (and likely finally following through with that forehead kiss he wanted) will help free Sakura from some of the pain and shame she feels about her remnants of her bond to Sasuke. Knowing it was actually Naruto that told her she had a beautiful forehead will help her let go of a mistaken idea (due to Naruto's henging as Sasuke) that Sasuke had told her that.

Catsi tends to catch subtle plot points quite well, and yeah I do tend to agree with catsi that Karin will play a role in Sasuke's likely redemption. If Kishimoto doesn't have Sasuke die saving Naruto (thus giving Sasuke a final redemption), catsi's idea about Karin's role in Sasuke's redemption will likely happen. I'll let catsi go into the details on that, and answer Broken Figurine's post- because I think it's better answered by a sausukarin shipper than a nonshipper like me, who just happens to agree that sasukarin looks like canon because Kishimoto showed some mutual attraction between them, and keeps dropping in things that adds weight to that. I'm just saying don't casually dismiss it, there's manga canon evidence...

1. Suigetsu is Suigetsu. Suigetsu is not a serious character. He jokes, makes sarcastic comments, and trolls. That's not canon evidence of SasuKarin, that's Suigetsu being an ass.

2. There's been very little emotional contribution to the pairing on Sasuke's side. A little panel here and there is hardly anything, especially when you consider the negative action he's taken against her. People seem to be completely forgetting what he's done to her.

[AzureWaters]

Guys, don't be hypocrites. I've seen numerous claims of SasuSaku not being possible because Sasuke has tried to kill her, he hates her, he ignores her,...etc, etc. Yet he's also tried to kill Karin,he's behaved rudely towards her, especially in Kage Arc where he over-talked her suggestions and threw her to the ground with Susanno, and actually got around to stabbing her. He has treated her in much the same way, if not worse, and honestly, Karin was Sakura put up to eleven regarding her crush for Sasuke.

Edited by AzureWaters, 31 March 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Guys, don't be hypocrites. I've seen numerous claims of SasuSaku not being possible because Sasuke has tried to kill her, he hates her, he ignores her,...etc, etc. Yet he's also tried to kill Karin,he's behaved rudely towards her, especially in Kage Arc where he over-talked her suggestions and threw her to the ground with Susanno, and actually got around to stabbing her. He has treated her in much the same way, if not worse, and honestly, Karin was Sakura put up to eleven regarding her crush for Sasuke.

Exactly.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Yeah, that added more canon weight to the sasukarin argument. And the way Sasuke reacted with the most strong emotions to Kabuto's casual mention that Karin happens to be an Uzumaki just didn't come across as a throw away scene either... Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Kishimoto keeps building in things that make Sasuke's bond to Karin more and more comparable to his bond to Naruto. I didn't ship it because I knew from what Kishimoto was saying in interviews and in the manga where Sasuke was heading would end up being a bad thing for Karin, but I could tell from the start Kishimoto was building something between them.

Karin's bond with Sasuke is different than Sakura's one sided crush on Sasuke. Don't be so quick to dismiss sasukarin shippers like catsi. I don't, because Kishimoto has indeed continued to make story points that show the difference between Sakura's one sided crush and the build up of the emotional connection between Sasuke and Karin.

I also will point out about how catsi was the first to be certain of the significance of the bench scene for Naruto and Sakura. I thought it was just a minor point, that yes would need to be addressed by Naruto to Sakura, but not a absolute core point of plot. Then we had the Kushina arc and the complete parallel with how Minato found the very physical point that others tormented Kushina about beautiful, and his stating so was the final point that made Kushina fall in love with Minato, and what she says to Naruto when he calls his mother's hair beautiful. As soon as that arc came out I knew catsi had totally called the importance of the bench scene. Naruto will absolutely have to tell Sakura it was himself henged as Sasuke. Sakura already is in love with Naruto, but his confession (and likely finally following through with that forehead kiss he wanted) will help free Sakura from some of the pain and shame she feels about her remnants of her bond to Sasuke. Knowing it was actually Naruto that told her she had a beautiful forehead will help her let go of a mistaken idea (due to Naruto's henging as Sasuke) that Sasuke had told her that.

Catsi tends to catch subtle plot points quite well, and yeah I do tend to agree with catsi that Karin will play a role in Sasuke's likely redemption. If Kishimoto doesn't have Sasuke die saving Naruto (thus giving Sasuke a final redemption), catsi's idea about Karin's role in Sasuke's redemption will likely happen. I'll let catsi go into the details on that, and answer Broken Figurine's post- because I think it's better answered by a sausukarin shipper than a nonshipper like me, who just happens to agree that sasukarin looks like canon because Kishimoto showed some mutual attraction between them, and keeps dropping in things that adds weight to that. I'm just saying don't casually dismiss it, there's manga canon evidence...

With all due respect ciardha, aren't you overthinking things a little? Sasuke really didn't care for Karin that way, and this couple didn't look canon at all. The only canon part of it was Karin's feelings not Sasuke's. You are right though, Karin's relationship with Sasuke was different from Sakura's, because he had respect for Karin and saw her as a worthy asset to him until she served no use anymore.
He saw Sakura as the weakest link of the team(Which was true in Part 1), and though grateful for her concern for him, it wasn't like truly respected her, especially when she rarely did anything useful.
SasuKarin was more positve than SasuSaku at first but when Sasuke became bipolar, batsh*t crazy it became just as negotive as SasuSaku. The end result was the same. I doubt Karin will run into Sasuke's arms after anattempted murder attempt if Kishi wants to do her character any justice, and besides that Karin has too much pride and respect in herself to so easily forgive him. Comparable to the SasuNaru?! There is no comparison to that bond besides Itachi but he's his brother so what do you expect? SasuNaru is the most focused bond and there aren't many things that can rival that, beside ItaSasu(Brother bond) and NaruSaku(Second most focused relationship).

[Darth Krypt]

And the way Sasuke reacted with the most strong emotions to Kabuto's casual mention that Karin happens to be an Uzumaki just didn't come across as a throw away scene either...

Come on. Who wouldn't be surprised of the reveal that Karin is an Uzumaki. Of course Sasuke will be surprised. That idiot who has been chasing him all these while is also an Uzumaki. This is just another case of over-analysis, blowing a small detail out of proportion.

[catsi563]

Actually no shes not and i appreciate the support C its always good.

And there is ample evidence that he did inf act feel mroe for her. Karin is the only one of team hebi/Taka that Sasuke actively on panel DIRECTLY states that and I quote here. "I need her." he doesnt say this about Juugo, or Suigetsu. He sasy this about Karin the one of the trio everyone so Worngly and quite frankly incorrectly dismisses as a fangirl which she is patently not.

I doubt Karin will run into Sasuke's arms after anattempted murder attempt if Kishi wants to do her character any justice, and besides that Karin has too much pride and respect in herself to so easily forgive him

Now here I do agree with you, as Ive stated elsewhere I still hold to the belief that the end game will be Naruto and Sasuke switching places in some fashion. With Naruto having all the respect/girls/acknowledgement etc.

And with Sasuke being the outcast pariah, and having to reaern the trust of everyone inclduing the girl he likes. while it wont be an exact mirror I do see Sasuke pursuing Karin and her making him re-earn that trust they once had.

Also on one note it is Implied by no less then Suigetsu, and Now Kabuto that these two have had a relationship far deeper then just any teamate bond. What that is has yet to be revealed though recent events suggest it will be sooner then we think.

And to those who doubt Sasukes commitment to the emotional side they are forgetting the Hachibi fight and focusing all to much on the Danzo climax.

It as ive said before the one time that Sauske trully embraces the core concept of the manga. But unlike his fight with orochimaru in the forest of death where Sakura basicaly prodded his pride, his reaction to Karins peril is one of emotional attachment. His pride isnt challenged in fatc Juugo absicaly says shes finished but Sasuke doesnt listen and gains new power which he uses to save her.

And on one point no one is comparing Sasuke and Karins bond to the bond between Naruto and Sasuke, or the bond between itachi and Sasuke. they are separate and completely different bonds and have different purposes through the story. Karins bond was to show a human side of Sasuke that he wasnt just hyper revenge driven he still had the basics of the concept of bonds within him. But it was also to show that he was falling into darkness and we saw this with her eyes and words. It is her character which brings us this narrative and at the end is the final victim of his fall.

Thats why she will also be a part of his redemption as I believe. Naruto will of course be the final step of it, But Karin will be one of his most egreggious sins revisisted. the Shinobi fo betrayals past so to speak.

Thats how Im coming to think Sasuke will be redeemed. He'll be confronted with the bonds hes broken and set aside including quite possibly Itahci beign involved in some fashion.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I'm starting to see again why I vowed several times before to stop discussing things like this with people on here because they just don't get it. I'm going to stop here, not because I can't argue your points, but because to do so and then immediately say "I'm done" would be an incredibly unfair move. Go ahead and keep believing that Sasuke sees her as anything other than a good but expendable asset. Think that you won the argument, if you wish.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 31 March 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Broken Figurine]

Actually no shes not and i appreciate the support C its always good.

And there is ample evidence that he did inf act feel mroe for her. Karin is the only one of team hebi/Taka that Sasuke actively on panel DIRECTLY states that and I quote here. "I need her." he doesnt say this about Juugo, or Suigetsu. He sasy this about Karin the one of the trio everyone so Worngly and quite frankly incorrectly dismisses as a fangirl which she is patently not.



Now here I do agree with you, as Ive stated elsewhere I still hold to the belief that the end game will be Naruto and Sasuke switching places in some fashion. With Naruto having all the respect/girls/acknowledgement etc.

And with Sasuke being the outcast pariah, and having to reaern the trust of everyone inclduing the girl he likes. while it wont be an exact mirror I do see Sasuke pursuing Karin and her making him re-earn that trust they once had.

Also on one note it is Implied by no less then Suigetsu, and Now Kabuto that these two have had a relationship far deeper then just any teamate bond. What that is has yet to be revealed though recent events suggest it will be sooner then we think.

And to those who doubt Sasukes commitment to the emotional side they are forgetting the Hachibi fight and focusing all to much on the Danzo climax.

It as ive said before the one time that Sauske trully embraces the core concept of the manga. But unlike his fight with orochimaru in the forest of death where Sakura basicaly prodded his pride, his reaction to Karins peril is one of emotional attachment. His pride isnt challenged in fatc Juugo absicaly says shes finished but Sasuke doesnt listen and gains new power which he uses to save her.

And on one point no one is comparing Sasuke and Karins bond to the bond between Naruto and Sasuke, or the bond between itachi and Sasuke. they are separate and completely different bonds and have different purposes through the story. Karins bond was to show a human side of Sasuke that he wasnt just hyper revenge driven he still had the basics of the concept of bonds within him. But it was also to show that he was falling into darkness and we saw this with her eyes and words. It is her character which brings us this narrative and at the end is the final victim of his fall.

Thats why she will also be a part of his redemption as I believe. Naruto will of course be the final step of it, But Karin will be one of his most egreggious sins revisisted. the Shinobi fo betrayals past so to speak.

Thats how Im coming to think Sasuke will be redeemed. He'll be confronted with the bonds hes broken and set aside including quite possibly Itahci beign involved in some fashion.

That's the problem I find--this really high importance for a character who has only recently joined us in the manga, and her apparently being significant enough for "mutual attraction" for a character who's sworn not to involve himself in ANYTHING . His most egregious sin revisited? Really? He didn't even kill her. Betraying his team, betraying his village, joining the Akatsuki, trying to kill Bee and subsequently help Tobi who is plotting world takeover? Karin is not the only one who shows Sasuke's human side. She ALONG WITH the rest of the team, in the fight against Bee, showed that he had those feelings for people still... and who did he think of? His old team. Team 7. He was reminded of those times. I keep hearing "mutual attraction, mutual attraction" but that's really not enough. He hasn't shown that.

I already said the deal with "I need you". He had said something along the same lines for Sakura during the Chuunin exams. Why? Because he's manipulative. He didn't need to say that to Suigetsu and Juugo because they were following him for different reasons. He needs her ability. He saved her, yes, but he showed that same companionship to the other members of his group. Weren't you the one saying he needs his medic around and he knows better than to do whatever? There is not ENOUGH evidence to support that he "likes" her like that. Just in the same way we've argued that he didn't have time to pursue a relationship with Sakura, it's A OK for Karin?

Implied by Suigetsu and by Kabuto? That is wishful thinking. One, Suigetsu was teasing them because that is in his character--unless you don't understand the concept of jibes or humour. Kabuto? He just mentioned that he had certain abilities thanks to the research on Karin, and he mentioned she was an Uzumaki which is indeed a startling piece of evidence considering that NARUTO IS AN UZUMAKI. That name would be nothing to him if it weren't associated with his rival. Call it what you will, that face didn't look pleased. Given his hostility toward Naruto at that point, it might be a bad point for him that Karin is associated with his enemy. He wants to go kill Naruto, last I checked.

Where is this "ample evidence"? I could say that SasuSaku has "ample evidence" and guess what? It does. Sakura's feelings. Much in the same that SasuKarin has Karin's feelings. Who is missing in this equation? Sasuke. There is NOT ample evidence to suggest his romantic intentions. He may have some in the future, and it may well be a SasuKarin ending, but if Naruto does not get with Sakura, and Sasuke is OK for dating or whatever... We're pitting the main heroine's feelings against that of Karin's. That Sakura's bond to Sasuke is less significant than Karin's is really irking considering the huge Team 7 focus of the entirety of part one and the beginning of part two. Then, I'm still baffled how people see a difference between the two pairings, when I though the most OBVIOUS of clues that they are the same thing was that time Karin and Sakura were together, crying over Sasuke. Karin HERSELF acknowledges it (though her fans don't seem to) and it was a crowning moment for her. It was where my respect for her actually came into existence.

Yet people insist they are different. SasuKarin and SasuSaku fans are fans of the same type of pairing, just with two different, BUT VERY SIMILAR females. Everything Sasuke has done toward Karin he has done some shades of it to Sakura in part 1 and 2, save for biting her (which seemed once again a one-sided point, considering it was Karin who enjoyed it).

[ciardha]

But I disagree with this notion and now it looks to me like some just don't want to support the couple because they think 'if I support this couple then I HAVE to support SasuSaku because they are practically the same!' which in my humble opinion isn't true. I mean I've managed to support that couple while arguing against SasuSaku. It isn't that hard.

Yeah, and I don't even ship sasukarin and I can see the difference. I think it also comes from their hatred of Sasuke's character. I've never been in any way a fan of Sasuke, even at his best his arrogance made him unlikeable and boring to me. But Sasuke humbled of his arrogance and redeemed might finally turn him into a decent character, he had moments when he actually worked with team mates (both with Team 7 and with Hebi/Taka) that showed a spark of humanity. It's that part that Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi have the bond to, the same goes for Karin, Jyuugo and even though he'd deny it, Suigetsu.

The characters aren't strict black and white- even the villains. Kishimoto said in an interview about part 2 of the manga that every character would have complexities in them: that he would present their stories that way- everyone has shades of gray- even Naruto. He wanted to make it harder for readers to simply and quickly judge a character. Likely because it reflects reality more.

About the only characters Kishimoto hasn't yet presented much of a gray side is some of the Akatsuki (Hidan, Kakazu, Tobi Madara) and some of the characters that were only briefly "on stage" during this arc like the Kin/Gin brothers. Even Orochimaru's grayer side was shown. Kabuto has always been a gray character, but we haven't yet been given anything in the story to elicit any sympathy for him.

[Broken Figurine]

Yeah, and I don't even ship sasukarin and I can see the difference. I think it also comes from their hatred of Sasuke's character. I've never been in any way a fan of Sasuke, even at his best his arrogance made him unlikeable and boring to me. But Sasuke humbled of his arrogance and redeemed might finally turn him into a decent character, he had moments when he actually worked with team mates (both with Team 7 and with Hebi/Taka) that showed a spark of humanity. It's that part that Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi have the bond to, the same goes for Karin, Jyuugo and even though he'd deny it, Suigetsu.

The characters aren't strict black and white- even the villains. Kishimoto said in an interview about part 2 of the manga that every character would have complexities in them: that he would present their stories that way- everyone has shades of gray- even Naruto. He wanted to make it harder for readers to simply and quickly judge a character. Likely because it reflects reality more.

About the only characters Kishimoto hasn't yet presented much of a gray side is some of the Akatsuki (Hidan, Kakazu, Tobi Madara) and some of the characters that were only briefly "on stage" during this arc like the Kin/Gin brothers. Even Orochimaru's grayer side was shown. Kabuto has always been a gray character, but we haven't yet been given anything in the story to elicit any sympathy for him.

No, I'm a fan of Sasuke. I'm not a fan of his pairings, and I'm especially not a fan of people simply "saying" that there is this vast difference between SasuSaku and SasuKarin, but then not providing this evidence that seems so apparent. His humanity is a seperate issue from his pairings. I've never said that "it won't happen" that Sasuke and Karin will get together, but I am critical of the ship as much as I am of SasuSaku, because the same issues are still present. Then, I hear all this mention about these little, little scenes and panel times, but no one has yet addressed the fact that it has been outlined that Sakura and Karin are in a similar situation.

Sakura can also see that Sasuke isn't himself, just like Karin could.
http://i27.mangaread...uto-1210379.jpg
In that same panel, look, from Sasuke's own words.
Actually, you're a medical ninja, aren't you Sakura? This works out perfectly... you can take her place
It is also, kind of like how it is between Naruto and Sasuke, a case of "how easily one could have been in the other's shoes". What if Sakura had gone with Sasuke, like she had wanted to part 1? But, like Karin, he doesn't really need her. That's a pretty hefty line right there. I bit more clearer in intention over "I need you."

Karin on Sasuke's "cold chakra" not being the same as she(Sakura) used to know
http://i12.mangaread...uto-1219236.jpg

They fell in love with the same Sasuke, even Karin can see that she "knew" him at one point, but now they both can tell in which direction he's gone.

Karin empathizes with Sakura, even though they are enemies
http://i15.mangaread...uto-1219228.jpg

"This is too much" Karin does recognize she had some role in Sasuke's life "a little" but it's overwhelming. The memories Sakura have are similar. They are remembering a time when he was human, and they both cling on to memories of that humanity.
http://i14.mangaread...uto-1226717.jpg

They are both in each other's place, and that Karin the character shows empathy on this level, I don't know how such a big indicator of the pairings similarity can be looked over. They are similar. SasuKarin has it's evidence, but its evidence is unfortunately similar to SasuSaku's, and I have yet to see anything that is really unique to SasuKarin. She doesn't take his attitude? Sakura doesn't at this point either. She has a better reason for loving him? Not really, compare Karin's memory of Sasuke before she was nearly killed to Sakura's. Sakura has more memories presented of Sasuke.

Karin has resolved to let go of Sasuke before Sakura has? Yes. Sakura is still holding on to her connection with Sasuke, but in a team 7 kind of way. She still loves him, in what way we aren't 100% sure, but I know Sakura loves Naruto too, definitely cares about him deeply, enough to have wanted to kill Sasuke in his stead. My issue is I don't agree with arguing against one pairing, but the same things being present in another are just glossed over. Say what you will about the little, highly vague stuff that supposedly differentiates them, but I'm seeing similarities in every example. That whole part with Sakura and Karin is significant in that respect. It's not an "Oh, I as Karin loved him actually and you and him don't work". We didn't see jealousy, we didn't see the claws come out, we didn't even see her thinking about her love for Sasuke until she was alone, but she sympathized. She knows the feelings, she knows what it is like to know somebody and be betrayed by them. How do you overlook this scene nyaaaaaagh XD

Show me where they are different, and how that trumps the theme that they are the same. This pairing is similar in the now. It is what happens LATER, after Sasuke is redeemed, that's the big question. The problem is, accepting that based on what we have now, the two pairings are too similar to say one is valid and the other is not. Sasuke is the one that has to change. He has not shown his love for Karin anymore than he has for Sakura. Sasuke is a team seven issue. When team seven resolves it, Sakura will (hopefully) be able to accept Naruto as a lover, and maybe... maybe Karin can be one for Sasuke. This is after climactic plot-story stuff. The issue in that is, by that logic it can as easily go to Sakura, who as the heroine I want to say has more significant weight with what her feelings are. Sasuke has to clearly show he prefers Karin, but I doubt that if NaruSaku does not happen, SasuKarin still would, leading me to say that SasuKarin is an alternative pairing for Sasuke in a story where Sakura is not an option.

Ahem, in case you haven't noticed, I'm more of a proponent of Sakura x Karin friendshipping than I am of SasuKarin. I just can't see how SasuSaku and SasuKarin are different, and if I'm to accept the possibility and validity of one I have to the other. Unless I say "Because I am a NaruSaku fan, I would prefer SasuKarin" which is a bit true, but not quite right.

Edited by Broken Figurine, 31 March 2012 - 05:59 AM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

No, I'm a fan of Sasuke. I'm not a fan of his pairings, and I'm especially not a fan of people simply "saying" that there is this vast difference between SasuSaku and SasuKarin, but then not providing this evidence that seems so apparent. His humanity is a seperate issue from his pairings. I've never said that "it won't happen" that Sasuke and Karin will get together, but I am critical of the ship as much as I am of SasuSaku, because the same issues are still present. Then, I hear all this mention about these little, little scenes and panel times, but no one has yet addressed the fact that it has been outlined that Sakura and Karin are in a similar situation.

Sakura can also see that Sasuke isn't himself, just like Karin could.
http://i27.mangaread...uto-1210379.jpg
In that same panel, look, from Sasuke's own words.
Actually, you're a medical ninja, aren't you Sakura? This works out perfectly... you can take her place
It is also, kind of like how it is between Naruto and Sasuke, a case of "how easily one could have been in the other's shoes". What if Sakura had gone with Sasuke, like she had wanted to part 1? But, like Karin, he doesn't really need her. That's a pretty hefty line right there. I bit more clearer in intention over "I need you."

Karin on Sasuke's "cold chakra" not being the same as she(Sakura) used to know
http://i12.mangaread...uto-1219236.jpg

They fell in love with the same Sasuke, even Karin can see that she "knew" him at one point, but now they both can tell in which direction he's gone.

Karin empathizes with Sakura, even though they are enemies
http://i15.mangaread...uto-1219228.jpg

"This is too much" Karin does recognize she had some role in Sasuke's life "a little" but it's overwhelming. The memories Sakura have are similar. They are remembering a time when he was human, and they both cling on to memories of that humanity.
http://i14.mangaread...uto-1226717.jpg

They are both in each other's place, and that Karin the character shows empathy on this level, I don't know how such a big indicator of the pairings similarity can be looked over. They are similar. SasuKarin has it's evidence, but its evidence is unfortunately similar to SasuSaku's, and I have yet to see anything that is really unique to SasuKarin. She doesn't take his attitude? Sakura doesn't at this point either. She has a better reason for loving him? Not really, compare Karin's memory of Sasuke before she was nearly killed to Sakura's. Sakura has more memories presented of Sasuke.

Karin has resolved to let go of Sasuke before Sakura has? Yes. Sakura is still holding on to her connection with Sasuke, but in a team 7 kind of way. She still loves him, in what way we aren't 100% sure, but I know Sakura loves Naruto too, definitely cares about him deeply, enough to have wanted to kill Sasuke in his stead. My issue is I don't agree with arguing against one pairing, but the same things being present in another are just glossed over. Say what you will about the little, highly vague stuff that supposedly differentiates them, but I'm seeing similarities in every example. That whole part with Sakura and Karin is significant in that respect. It's not an "Oh, I as Karin loved him actually and you and him don't work". We didn't see jealousy, we didn't see the claws come out, we didn't even see her thinking about her love for Sasuke until she was alone, but she sympathized. She knows the feelings, she knows what it is like to know somebody and be betrayed by them. How do you overlook this scene nyaaaaaagh XD

Show me where they are different, and how that trumps the theme that they are the same. This pairing is similar in the now. It is what happens LATER, after Sasuke is redeemed, that's the big question. The problem is, accepting that based on what we have now, the two pairings are too similar to say one is valid and the other is not. Sasuke is the one that has to change. He has not shown his love for Karin anymore than he has for Sakura. Sasuke is a team seven issue. When team seven resolves it, Sakura will (hopefully) be able to accept Naruto as a lover, and maybe... maybe Karin can be one for Sasuke. This is after climactic plot-story stuff. The issue in that is, by that logic it can as easily go to Sakura, who as the heroine I want to say has more significant weight with what her feelings are. Sasuke has to clearly show he prefers Karin, but I doubt that if NaruSaku does not happen, SasuKarin still would, leading me to say that SasuKarin is an alternative pairing for Sasuke in a story where Sakura is not an option.

Ahem, in case you haven't noticed, I'm more of a proponent of Sakura x Karin friendshipping than I am of SasuKarin. I just can't see how SasuSaku and SasuKarin are different, and if I'm to accept the possibility and validity of one I have to the other. Unless I say "Because I am a NaruSaku fan, I would prefer SasuKarin" which is a bit true, but not quite right.

This^^. SasuKarin is on par with SasuSaku. I don't even think Sasuke will be with anyone in the end. I do like Sasuke too and hate almost any pairing involving him(Except two crack pairings SasuHina and SasuIno but those are crack after all).