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H&E's NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#9241 Gravenimage

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bolded: Okay, when has that been stated to be his goal? Not even bothering with the rest.


-When Tsunade healed Sasuke and Sakura was hugging him crying (Naruto forcing a smile while on the inside he was heart broken).

-When he made her the promise of the life time wanting to bring Sasuke back for her even when he was forcing another smile when he asked her if she loves him. He was hurting again but he was willing to take that pain if bringing him back will make her happy.

-Wanting to bring Sasuke back to Konoha to make Sakura happy is only "one of the reasons" why he was doing this along behind his reason for making the promise.

-The same can be said when he chose to get beat up by Karui defending Sasuke and then begging the Raikage not to execute him (for Sakura and other reasons because he cares for Sasuke as his brother and best friend).

If Sakura still loves Sasuke with all her heart and Sasuke tells her he wants to be with her. Naruto won't argue he will let her be with him because even if he will be hurt he will be happy for her. Those sacrifices clearly makes he wants what's best for Sakura and her happiness it can be considered maybe not an official Naruto goal but still a goal because he wants to see her happy. We already know from what I mentioned above.

Now I ask you with a special question" do you think Hinata is willing to do the same for Naruto?"

Edited by Gravenimage, 27 January 2013 - 08:48 PM.

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#9242 Poison_In_Your_Coffee

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

QUOTE (MakeMoneyEatRice @ Jan 27 2013, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Their hand holding wasn't long and emphasised. To us, Yes it seemed like they held hands for a long time but let's look at it from their perspective them holding hands lasted for about thirty seconds heck even Neji's death was only about five minutes ago. The fact that you considered Hinata popping Naruto's shoulder back in place a NaruHina moment kind of baffled me and I doubt they will do anything together she'll only fight with Naruto like the rest of the Shinobi Alliance, but if they do! then I really won't be surprised.

This is what I mean. Kishi wrote and drew all those panels. From creator's POV, it took a long time, from the readers' POV as well. Kishi must have had a reason to draw so many panels of them holding hands and a reason of showing the highfives as very brief, only for a panel or so.

--

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Jan 27 2013, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
-When Tsunade healed Sasuke and Sakura was hugging him crying (Naruto forcing a smile while on the inside he was heart broken).

-When he made her the promise of the life time wanting to bring Sasuke back for her even when he was forcing another smile when he asked her if she loves him. He was hurting again but he was willing to take that pain if bringing him back will make her happy.

-Wanting to bring Sasuke back to Konoha to make Sakura happy is only "one of the reasons" why he was doing this along behind his reason for making the promise.

-The same can be said when he chose to get beat up by Karui defending Sasuke and then begging the Raikage not to execute him (for Sakura and other reasons because he cares for Sasuke as his brother and best friend).

If Sakura still loves Sasuke with all her heart and Sasuke tells her he wants to be with her. Naruto won't argue he will let her be with him because even if he will be hurt he will be happy for her. Those sacrifices clearly makes he wants what's best for Sakura and her happiness can be considered maybe not an official Naruto goal but still a goal because he wants to see her happy. We already know from what I mentioned above.

These are not examples of Naruto stating Sakura being happy as his goal, like being hokage is his goal. Of course Naruto wants Sakura happy, but is it one of his life goals like becoming a hokage is?

QUOTE
Now I ask you with a special question" do you think Hinata is willing to do the same for Naruto?"

Willing to let Naruto go so he can be happy with someone else? Without a shadow of a doubt, with 100% certainly, I can say "yes", yes she is. She was willing to die for him, after all. That much she is willing to do to make Naruto happy, give up her own life. Why would watching Naruto live happily with Sakura be a problem for her, when all she wants his is happiness and is willing to settle to nothing for herself?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 08:52 PM.

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#9243 Gravenimage

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is what I mean. Kishi wrote and drew all those panels. From creator's POV, it took a long time, from the readers' POV as well. Kishi must have had a reason to draw so many panels of them holding hands and a reason of showing the highfives as very brief, only for a panel or so.


It was only to give her chakra and even their hand holding wasn't the kind of hold couples would do sheesh give it a rest. It wasn't a NH moment it was character development disguise as a NH moment but in the end it's clear Kishi has trolled NH yet again. You must be the kind of NH fan that if you see Naruto and Hinata in the same panel you scream" canon!" or if she's standing behind him, or if she's next to him.
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#9244 Poison_In_Your_Coffee

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

QUOTE (T XD @ Jan 27 2013, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's something I noticed, that you're seeing Naruto always loving Sakura as forcing her.
Naruto always loving Sakura even from part 1 rejecting him doesn't mean he's forcing her. The guy just loves her. He isn't pleading her or worst to be with him.
It shows that he doesn't want to give up on her and in loving her.

So, getting together with Sakura is not Naruto's goal? No, I see Naruto forcing her only if he will always keep going after her, without any consideration for her feelings. I see it as forcing if he never gives her up as his goal. He has to give her up as his goal, if she does not want him, otherwise to keep trying to get together with Sakura is forcing. I'm speaking hypotetically of events that we don't even know will happen.

QUOTE
Again, what I said before. Plus, things can't be different for them. Sasuke won't magically fall for her, neither Sakura will love him back again.

Of course they can. Sasuke gets a chance to turn his life around. If Sakura still loves him, why can't Sasuke be interested in her? Same with Naruto, maybe he has fallen for Hinata. I am not saying that NH and SS will definitely happen, just saying that there is a chance that they will.

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Jan 27 2013, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was only to give her chakra and even their hand holding wasn't the kind of hold couples would do sheesh give it a rest. It wasn't a NH moment it was character development disguise as a NH moment but in the end it's clear Kishi has trolled NH yet again. You must be the kind of NH fan that if you see Naruto and Hinata in the same panel you scream" canon!" or if she's standing behind him, or if she's next to him.

Look, keep telling yourself that for all I care.

Bolded: I pretty much have to, yes.

--

So we have established that getting together with Sakura is not one of Naruto's goals, haven't we? At least you can't provide a chapter that has Naruto stating getting her being one of his goals, no? So how about providing that chapter where Naruto states that Sakura's happiness is one of his goals?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 09:03 PM.

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#9245 Zatheko

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, getting together with Sakura is not Naruto's goal? No, I see Naruto forcing her only if he will always keep going after her, without any consideration for her feelings. I see it as forcing if he never gives her up as his goal. He has to give her up as his goal, if she does not want him, otherwise to keep trying to get together with Sakura is forcing. I'm speaking hypotetically of events that we don't even know will happen.


Of course they can. Sasuke gets a chance to turn his life around. If Sakura still loves him, why can't Sasuke be interested in her? Same with Naruto, maybe he has fallen for Hinata. I am not saying that NH and SS will definitely happen, just saying that there is a chance that they will.


It would be more out of character than him actually becoming a good guy, at this point im seriously starting to wonder if sasuke swings the other way tongue.gif

#9246 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE (zatheko @ Jan 27 2013, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be more out of character than him actually becoming a good guy, at this point im seriously starting to wonder if sasuke swings the other way tongue.gif

Kakashi.
this is the reason why SS cant be canon.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2013 - 09:04 PM.

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#9247 Poison_In_Your_Coffee

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE (zatheko @ Jan 27 2013, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be more out of character than him actually becoming a good guy, at this point im seriously starting to wonder if sasuke swings the other way tongue.gif

No, sweetie, you think it would be out of character. It is no fact. Considering that there is absolutely no evidence about Sasuke being romantically into men either, I'd say there is as good a chance of SS happening than before.

Edit. I have to turn myself in for the night. Bye. love.gif

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 09:08 PM.

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#9248 Zatheko

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, sweetie, you think it would be out of character. It is no fact. Considering that there is absolutely no evidence about Sasuke being romantically into men either, I'd say there is as good a chance of SS happening than before.


I was joking bout him being in love with men, and yes it would be out of character for him to start liking her, it was stretching it for him to consider her a friend in part 1, now in part 2, he doesn't even acknowledge her as an acquaintance , now if you are saying that him making a complete 180 and going form "less than an acquaintance " to "i love you, sorry I tried to murder you..." is in character, then um... wow I don't know what to say.

Edited by zatheko, 27 January 2013 - 09:11 PM.


#9249 MangaReader

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, getting together with Sakura is not Naruto's goal? No, I see Naruto forcing her only if he will always keep going after her, without any consideration for her feelings. I see it as forcing if he never gives her up as his goal. He has to give her up as his goal, if she does not want him, otherwise to keep trying to get together with Sakura is forcing. I'm speaking hypotetically of events that we don't even know will happen.

Basically, your claim is Naruto won't end up with anyone... as he has not once shown any sort of feelings for Hinata outside of friendship. If he decides at the last minute to fall for her, I already told you that it would be hypocritical of him as he's not truly in love with her.

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#9250 Gravenimage

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

If I was Sasuke and I fall for Sakura after I got redeemed I would never be able to sleep at night or even see myself as worthy to love her because of the way I treated her not to mention tying to kill her twice.
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#9251 T XD

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 28 2013, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, getting together with Sakura is not Naruto's goal? No, I see Naruto forcing her only if he will always keep going after her, without any consideration for her feelings. I see it as forcing if he never gives her up as his goal. He has to give her up as his goal, if she does not want him, otherwise to keep trying to get together with Sakura is forcing. I'm speaking hypotetically of events that we don't even know will happen.


Of course they can. Sasuke gets a chance to turn his life around. If Sakura still loves him, why can't Sasuke be interested in her? Same with Naruto, maybe he has fallen for Hinata. I am not saying that NH and SS will definitely happen, just saying that there is a chance that they will.


--

So we have established that getting together with Sakura is not one of Naruto's goals, haven't we? At least you can't provide a chapter that has Naruto stating getting her being one of his goals, no? So how about providing that chapter where Naruto states that Sakura's happiness is one of his goals?

If you believe and your thought is like that than that is your opinion on the forcing stuff. Whereas, Naruto is not forcing her. Forcing her is him pleading her or threatening her. Naruto just loves her, and showing his affection. That's all. I don't know why you keep mentioning that Naruto wants to force her to be with him.

And about the goal, I said it before and I'll say it again he's showing that he loves her from the beginning and doesn't shift his love. If you want him to literally say " She's my goal" than hope for it but I'm pointing at the things that I said before which is he won't out of the blue stop loving her. It can't be that way.
I hope you understood the way you're bringing the goal thing.

And how will Sasuke will be interested in her, again, out of the blue. Plus, Sakura doesn't love him like before. Things have changed. If Sasuke returns to Konoha, it doesn't mean that Sasuke and Sakura can be together. Again, same with Naruto about Hinata. Kishi to make them canon, have to start from the beginning of shippuden.

Edited by T XD, 27 January 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#9252 Qia

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When did she find out about how serious those feelings were? I don't really know what scene you are talking about. The tent scene with Sai?


Yes. Look at her reaction! Look at how surprised she is to find out that he really really loves her.
QUOTE
She was under so much pressure. Sasuke was about to meet his maker because everybody wanted him dead. She knew this. Tsunade was out of it, in coma. Sai comes in and blames her for Naruto's pain. She knows that Naruto loves her and knows that she still loves Sasuke. No wonder she is crying.


But even before she started crying, look at her reaction! She's completely shocked when Sai blurts out that Naruto really loves her. If she already knew how he felt, then she wouldn't have been so shocked I think. The crying could have been the pressure, but with the way the page is put I really didn't see it like that. It shows flashbacks of him (and only him). The first and second one being when he made the POAL and when he said she understood how much she's suffering. That's when Sakura would have realized how much Naruto loved her, because he understood what she was going through. And then, the next flashback was him actually promising to bring Sasuke back, showing how selfless his love is too. And it was AFTER she started crying that Sai mentioned that she's the one that causes him pain too. Therefore, in my opinion, she wasn't crying because of Sasuke. She wasn't crying because of Tsunade either. She was crying because, at that moment, she realized Naruto really really loves her, and she hadn't even noticed it till Sai, of all people, told her.
QUOTE
I hope Kishi doesn't do any flashback to that. I want to see Naruto and Sakura talk "in real time". But in the end I just want to see them talk and everything made clear between them.


Same here.
QUOTE
Ha, I think it was ch 333.

Haha. Just kidding --Click here to view--
QUOTE
I don't know. Naruto is certainly a nicer person and has supported her much more than Sasuke. And yet, we still see Sakura wanting Sasuke. I guess there just is something in Sasuke that Sakura does not see in Naruto.


That's just it though. We haven't seen her WANTING Sasuke. Her feelings may be there, but it doesn't seem like, to me, that she's happy that they're still there or that she wants to pursue them. So no, her still having feelings for Sasuke doesn't mean that Naruto is second best. Her feelings are, simply, still there, whether she wants them to be there or not. I mentioned this on my Tumblr once but...I can see a Delena/Stelena thing (from the vampire diaries tongue.gif) being done where she realizes that she'll always love Sasuke because of the moments they did share, bad and good. However, she won't want to be with him because she simply doesn't want to, and because she feels something stronger for Naruto.
QUOTE
I take that back: she hasn't been shown thinking that she does not love Naruto. That is simply my own interpretion. But like I said earlier: how do you know that she does love him? We have no reason to believe that she does.


I believe that she loves him because of those moments you consider red herrings. YOU'RE the one that refuses to see them that way. It's that simple. smile.gif

Edited by Qia, 27 January 2013 - 09:21 PM.

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#9253 MangaReader

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Jan 27 2013, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I was Sasuke and I fall for Sakura after I got redeemed I would never be able to sleep at night or even see myself as worthy to love her because of the way I treated her not to mention tying to kill her twice.

3 times actually... once the first time they met after the timebreak and twice when the re-met up during the Summit Arc

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#9254 Enkai

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE (zatheko @ Jan 27 2013, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was joking bout him being in love with men, and yes it would be out of character for him to start liking her, it was stretching it for him to consider her a friend in part 1, now in part 2, he doesn't even acknowledge her as an acquaintance , now if you are saying that him making a complete 180 and going form "less than an acquaintance " to "i love you, sorry I tried to murder you..." is in character, then um... wow I don't know what to say.


^ This. Sasuke being nice to Sakura would be possible but that I think is probably stretching it. He doesn't even acknowledge, it's silly to even think somehow he would just randomly do a u turn from not giving a kitten about her and trying to kill her multiple times to loving her. It just sounds so stupid, I cant even begin understand how you think it wouldn't be out of character for Sasuke to magically come back to Konoha and then say he loves Sakura. To think such a thing is just delusional. mellow.gif

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#9255 redragon88

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But Sasuke is Naruto's stated goal, again and again and again Naruto mentions wanting to bring him back. Where are all the moments where he can't shut his mouth about how he needs to get it on with Sakura? Naruto wanting to be with Sakura and wanting to save Sasuke, respectively, are not presented as equal goals. It is possible that Naruto will forever be in love with Sakura but not getting together with her is not a big failure for him. Not becoming hokage and not saving Sasuke would be. (Anyway. When has Naruto even stated that Sakura is his goal?)

Considering how the issues with Sasuke affect his willingness to confess to Sakura, do you really find it surprising for him not to bring up his love for Sakura very often? Whether it's a goal or not Naruto wants Sakura's happiness, whether it's with him or not. The promise cemented this trait of Naruto very clearly. His love for Sakura is deep and selfless. Saying how much he wants to make Sakura love him would truly diminish the display of selflessness that defines him. So he rather keeps quiet about it.

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
God, I saw this mentioned in the Naruto Forums and honest, my first thought was:

"Sasuke is a terrorist and a murderer, Sakura is a girl who just doesn't fall for Naruto. Two hardest challenges? Totally on the same level, my ass. rolleyes.gif" laugh.gif

Sasuke is like the most important thing to Naruto. Saving him is more important to Naruto than becoming a hokage, and he has wanted that from the very beginning. Sakura is a girl he has romantic feelings for. Again, when has Sakura even stated to be one of Naruto's goals?

If you response towards me is to say "my ass" I don't know how seriously I can take you as a debater.

Could you elaborate why Sakura is not a high challenge. If you want to put Sasuke as the undisputed #1 that's fine, but it seems your trying to downplay the story with Sakura a little too much. Sakura is not some girl Naruto wants to take to ninja prom, his love for her is very serious. And the fact that we're still waiting to see if she might be with him in the end is what makes it a challenge.

When we say Sasuke and Sakura are the hardest challenges is because they look the most unlikely to change their perceptions by the end. It's not about what Naruto can do for them, it's about waiting in anticipation if they'll finally look at things differently

Additionally, saving Sasuke is the standard Naruto set for himself in order to fulfill the rest of his desires. Remember "How can I be Hokage if I can't save a friend?" but also don't try to forget "How can I tell her how I feel if I can't even keep my promises?". If we go by that pattern Sasuke is the goal standard to fulfill in order for Naruto to open himself to the possibilities of other goal.

You can try to argue it however you want but it seems that Naruto holds his willingness to become Hokage to the same level as confessing to Sakura. If you want to believe otherwise is because of different perception and not because of fact.

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If he does not give up on trying to get Sakura even after she has made it totally clear that she does not want him, then it is Naruto forcing her to be with him. It has not yet gone so far, and I doubt Kishi will ever let it go so far. This is why I see Naruto either moving on or Sakura falling for him. Doubt that Sakura and Sasuke get together and at their wedding reception Kishi will portray Naruto hitting on the newlywed Sakura.

Do you really think Naruto would push his love for Sakura if she got together with Sasuke? Of course not. He would still love her and be happy for her.

As for why he would still love her, because it's a very Naruto thing to do. But that's just my opinion. Naruto simply loving Sakura has never been shown as a mistake. It's sad that she doesn't love him back, but it's never shown that Naruto is better off not doing so. Again, take Jiraiya as reference.

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sure. But Sakura has been stated again and again to be in love with Sasuke. When was it last mentioned that Naruto was in love with Sakura, still?

Your desire for Naruto to repeatedly say that he love Sakura in order to confirm his feelings is your own. Naruto already confirmed with Sai that he loves her. You don't need anything more. Your conclusion that Naruto doesn't love Sakura anymore because of it is your own believe and not a fact whatsoever. Until Naruto says that he doesn't love Sakura he still does. I can't help you to find justification to put down Naruto's feelings when there is none, you could only ask Kishi about it. Any speculation about Naruto not loving Sakura anymore comes out of a personal desire to see it happen and not from actual fact.

QUOTE (Poison_In_Your_Coffee @ Jan 27 2013, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your questions:

Apparently her undying love for him, made clear in the summit arc and in ch 540 again. There is nothing that stops Sakura from moving on, in itself, but the manga so far hasn't potrayed this at all.

Her hope that he will come back and maybe things will be different between them. She gave up that hope once, but even then she still loved him. Sakura just loves Sasuke. This keeps getting shown again and again through the manga.

After recent chapters, very real hope that Naruto is falling for her.

My point is just to get you to see that things are not as obvious as you think. That the manga is still full of potential and possibilities for pairings other than NS. That's all.

You say: Sakura has an undying love for Sasuke
I say: Naruto has an undying love for Sakura (this is shown how his feelings remain intact regardless of her love for Sasuke)

You say: Sakura hopes things will be different, that she just loves Sasuke and it keeps getting shown
I say: Naruto hopes he can confess and therefore win Sakura's affection with his own power. His love for Sakura keeps getting shown (case and point when Naruto admitted it to Sai)

You say: After recent chapter very real hope Naruto is falling for Hinata
I say: After the development throughout the whole story there's an extremely high real hope that Sakura is falling for Naruto

The manga is full of potential, but I'm just hoping you understand that bringing up these issues will only make you go in circles. Whatever defense you want to give Sakura and Hinata it can be done equally or even better with Naruto.

#9256 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Jan 27 2013, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I was Sasuke and I fall for Sakura after I got redeemed I would never be able to sleep at night or even see myself as worthy to love her because of the way I treated her not to mention tying to kill her twice.

Yeah totally retarded

>Sasuke becames good
>Instead of being sincere and nice, he just say i love you Sakura doing the same thing that Naruto refused to do with Sakura's confession.

It's retarded, would be better for Sakura to realize that Sasuke does not deserve this love, "moving on from Sasuke", which is what happened to Rin.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2013 - 09:48 PM.

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#9257 MangaReader

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

If Sasuke were a true friend/brother, he would never betray Naruto like that unless Naruto forced him too. Cause as we all know, Sasuke holds no feelings for Sakura what so ever

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#9258 Qia

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

I've always sort of suspected that Sasuke knows how Naruto feels for Sakura too...of course I don't really have much to back this up. xD. But yea....

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#9259 MangaReader

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:59 PM

@Qia~ None of us have anything to back it up really, but Sasuke can't be that unaware of his best friends feelings... even Sai knew how Naruto felt and he's the guy who pretty much was devoid of all emotions at the time XD

Edited by MangaReader, 27 January 2013 - 09:59 PM.

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#9260 Chucky-kun

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE (MangaReader @ Jan 28 2013, 08:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@Qia~ None of us have anything to back it up really, but Sasuke can't be that unaware of his best friends feelings... even Sai knew how Naruto felt and he's the guy who pretty much was devoid of all emotions at the time XD

Well with the obirin parallel, kakashi knew obito liked rin.

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