19964 replies to this topic

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

NH hand-holding: Naruto gave his chakra to pretty much everyone else, holding the hands of Shikamaru and Tenten as well in 616/617. Demoted as a battle strategy/act of gratitude.

This is not a very good path you are starting to travel with this. You keep downplaying that handholding moment and because of that there is a very good chance that it will explode right to your faces. Naruto held Hinata's hand after very intense moment during which she pretty much brought him back from darkness. She inspired him and made him feel strong and capable again. Then he took her hand. Their handholding lasted for several panels. The whole NH moment took up almost half the chapter 615. In ch 616 they still held hands. Then Naruto dashed around giving highfive chakras to everyone. NH moment was long, meaningful, emphasized. Naruto giving out chakra to others was quick, not emphasized all that much. You must have by now have seen that picture that some NH fan combined to show the difference between the scenes. The difference is like that between night and day. And ch 617 went right on to continue with the NH moments. Who knows what they will do together in the chapters to come?

Of course, at some point Kishi is going to have to shift the attention away from Hinata and/or Naruto and then NH moments will stop, at least for the moment. It is pretty inevitable. It should not be taken by NH fans or NS fans to mean that NH is done, though.

[Qia]

When it comes to Sakura's love for Sasuke, I actually saw a good view of it made by Kat (Kagura-shingan on tumblr) that probably puts why she still loves Sasuke in a better light ( as in, it's a good explanation of why she still does, but doesn't mean, in my opinion that is, she won't chase after him again). Her interpretation also goes hand in hand with Sakura's last moment in part 1 telling Naruto they'd do it together next time, and that she'll be stronger. It also goes hand in hand with every thought she had of Sasuke before the confession (for instance, during the Sasori fight she remembers that she's supposed to protect both Naruto and Sasuke) But as you know...she's failed to protect Sasuke. And with that thought Kat's explanation:

"My interpretation (this is by no means something I expect others to agree with, it’s just something I believe) of things as they stand is that Sakura’s lingering love for Sasuke is based mostly on the fact that she felt she needed to get stronger in order to get him back, and when that failed, she couldn’t let go of her love because that was what had been driving her all this time - this is why she couldn’t move on - it’s no longer so much about her love for Sasuke as it is about her belief in herself and her capacity in the context of what it means to be a shinobi. And I feel like she thinks she doesn’t deserve Naruto, even though she does, because she failed. So did Kakashi and Naruto, but Sakura can’t get over her personal failure. This is why she calls him a “fool” for loving her."

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

And I can turn your words around too... why lie to yourself just to be in a relationship, Naruto would be a hypocrite then. Sure you can move on, but when your feelings are genuine (unlike Sakura's for Sasuke, which is based off a lie) you can never truly get over them. I know that better then anyone, despite not being in a relationship. It's as the saying goes, "Old flames die hard".

Ah, but who says that Naruto can never move on? You are saying that. We don't know if Kishi feels that you can never move on. If Naruto will fall for Hinata and tell Sakura that he no longer loves her romantically, then clearly Kishi feels that Naruto can move on. We don't know that yet.

Now to why Sakura's love for Sasuke is a based on a lie, well that goes back to the very first volume of Naruto. The answer is the Bench scene, Naruto at that time admitted he made a mistake, instead of making Sasuke look like a jerk, he gave Sakura the false illusion that Sasuke had a soft side hidden deep down inside him. That's when her feelings went from just fangirling, to a false pretense of love. Minus the whole false pretense, Hinata's feeling can be categorized somewhat like Part 1 Sakura's feelings were. It's pretty much Hero Worship taken to an obsession point, to where her character is only capable of doing anything important in Naruto's presence or involves Naruto's well-being in anyway. Hinata's far from a independent character that for sure.

See, this is again just your opinion. We SS fans have never considered the bench scene to be important to SS. I mean, of all the times that Sakura has ever thought about Sasuke... when did she ever remember the bench scene with Naruto? Never. Every scene she remembered, all the SS moments, they were with the real Sasuke. The bench scene being basis of Sakura's love Sasuke is a silly argument. Hinata has been many times stated to be in love with Naruto. I see nothing in the manga that would make me think otherwise.

The same can be said for Hinata as well, at least in the case of NS we have been shown that sakura has some feelings toward naruto, how strong are those feelings? I don't know, but out of all the possible pairings it is safe to say that sakura so far has shown the most to be able to switch her feelings compared to naruto or sasuke switching theirs. So what I am saying is the "it is better to move on and look for love elsewhere" works better for sakura moving on form sasuke and toward naruto.

Bolded: no, we haven't been shown that. Also, as far as we know, Sakura is still in love with Sasuke. When has her love for him actually in any way lessened? Even when she tried to kill him, it was not because she didn't love him but because she had lost the faith that he was going to get better. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been constant through the manga. We still don't know the final pairings. We know that someone will have to move on, whether it be Naruto or Hinata or Sakura or Lee, who knows.

--

When it comes to Sakura's love for Sasuke, I actually saw a good view of it made by Kat (Kagura-shingan on tumblr) that probably puts why she still loves Sasuke in a better light ( as in, it's a good explanation of why she still does, but doesn't mean, in my opinion that is, she won't chase after him again). Her interpretation also goes hand in hand with Sakura's last moment in part 1 telling Naruto they'd do it together next time, and that she'll be stronger. It also goes hand in hand with every thought she had of Sasuke before the confession (for instance, during the Sasori fight she remembers that she's supposed to protect both Naruto and Sasuke) But as you know...she's failed to protect Sasuke. And with that thought Kat's explanation:

"My interpretation (this is by no means something I expect others to agree with, it’s just something I believe) of things as they stand is that Sakura’s lingering love for Sasuke is based mostly on the fact that she felt she needed to get stronger in order to get him back, and when that failed, she couldn’t let go of her love because that was what had been driving her all this time - this is why she couldn’t move on - it’s no longer so much about her love for Sasuke as it is about her belief in herself and her capacity in the context of what it means to be a shinobi. And I feel like she thinks she doesn’t deserve Naruto, even though she does, because she failed. So did Kakashi and Naruto, but Sakura can’t get over her personal failure. This is why she calls him a “fool” for loving her."

I personally don't feel the need to explain Sakura's love for Sasuke. She saw something in him that made her fall for him. Naruto also saw something in Sasuke that made him his closest friend and someone Naruto is willing to die for. That's really all there is to it. I personally can read the part 1 and see some reasons why they would love Sasuke. I guess other people can wonder why they would love him, but I really don't. Sasuke is just their type, IMO. If that type doesn't appeal to some people, of course they are not going to see the attraction. As for Kat's theory. I feel that Sakura's insecurity might play some part in the upcoming chapters but I wonder if she isn't just reaching for some explanation that will turn Sakura's love for Sasuke better for NS. Not everything is that complex: maybe Sakura still loves Sasuke because her feelings for him are simply that strong, a real true love.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[FrenchMyToast]

Well, if 616 told me anything, it's that Kishi always has an answer. The hand-holding scene was a pain in the ass to debate against, but after 616, that all changed. You can actually argue that he only did that because he was going by the Plan to defeat the Juubi. Sure, you can say that I'm downplaying the moment, but I can say you're overthinking it. It's pretty much the same as the hug for me. Sakura didn't love Naruto (still doesn't?) after the fight with Pein, and the hug was more a "thank you for everything." That seems A LOT like the handholding. Naruto has shown no romantic feelings towards Hinata, he pretty much says thank you for getting him through his situation, and gives her chakra. Hell, I'm pretty sure he was holding the back of her hand. If Kishi wanted it romantic, he could've at least made it palm-to-palm. But anyways, this is also why I'm not too worried about Sakura. Kishi will probably have a good reason she wasn't shown. It just sucks that we'll probably have to deal with Sasuke for a while.

Edit: I feel like any reason you have for why Naruto will get over Sakura and move onto Hinata can be turned around as to how Sakura will forget about Sasuke, and move onto Naruto. Plus, it's already shown she's not happy with her feelings towards Sasuke. (That one panel in 540 I believe. Have fun debating against that lol), while Naruto's feelings towards Sakura haven't been shown to have changed.

Edited by FrenchMyToast, 27 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I don't see how you could think that Naruto only held her hand to give chakra. What was he thanking her for then? She had just helped him a lot. It could be just a platonic moment, of course, but it is more than just chakra transfer.

I guess it's possible that we all NH supporters are overthinking it. Why I don't really think that is because we have so many other NH moments in the chapters these days. Kishi is writing these moments for some reason. Like that arm fixing in 617. I'm still impressed that Kishi went out of his way to show that Hinata could help Naruto with his injuries in the middle of the attack. If Kishi is going to just sink NH, why include moments like that?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[MangaReader]

Ah, but who says that Naruto can never move on? You are saying that. We don't know if Kishi feels that you can never move on. If Naruto will fall for Hinata and tell Sakura that he no longer loves her romantically, then clearly Kishi feels that Naruto can move on. We don't know that yet.

Why is it that Sakura can't change her mind... seriously, this is the biggest conundrum to date. I get that anything's possible, but it makes more sense for the heroin's mind to change then the main characters. If neither's possible, then the whole pairing thing is pointless and love triangles are just bad for writing period. But who's ever heard of the main hero changing their mind (okay other then Shojo)... Anime/Comics books, there all the same when it comes to one thing, the hero/heroin and his/her mindset.

[FrenchMyToast]

I don't see how you could think that Naruto only held her hand to give chakra. What was he thanking her for then? She had just helped him a lot. It could be just a platonic moment, of course, but it is more than just chakra transfer.

I guess it's possible that we all NH supporters are overthinking it. Why I don't really think that is because we have so many other NH moments in the chapters these days. Kishi is writing these moments for some reason. Like that arm fixing in 617. I'm still impressed that Kishi went out of his way to show that Hinata could help Naruto with his injuries in the middle of the attack. If Kishi is going to just sink NH, why include moments like that?

Well we haven't been shown anything that says he see's her as more than a friend. That's why. Again, I see it as something like the hug scene. And why have moments like Tenchi Bridge, Sai bringing up Naruto's feelings, or any kind of development for NS if Kishi is just going to have Naruto fall in love with Hinata over the course of 3 chapters.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Why is it that Sakura can't change her mind... seriously, this is the biggest conundrum to date. I get that anything's possible, but it makes more sense for the heroin's mind to change then the main characters. If neither's possible, then the whole pairing thing is pointless and love triangles are just bad for writing period. But who's ever heard of the main hero changing their mind (okay other then Shojo)... Anime/Comics books, there all the same when it comes to one thing, the hero/heroin and his/her mindset.

She can change her mind but what evidence is there in the manga that she has changed mind already or that she might change her mind? Anything's possible, I guess, but nothing's guaranteed. There is no law agaist the main male character changing his mind, for example.

Well we haven't been shown anything that says he see's her as more than a friend. That's why. Again, I see it as something like the hug scene. And why have moments like Tenchi Bridge, Sai bringing up Naruto's feelings, or any kind of development for NS if Kishi is just going to have Naruto fall in love with Hinata over the course of 3 chapters.

And we haven't been shown anything that shows that Sakura sees Naruto as more than a friend. We are even in this. All your examples are so vague that I can read them and see no romance in them.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[Zatheko]

Bolded: no, we haven't been shown that. Also, as far as we know, Sakura is still in love with Sasuke. When has her love for him actually in any way lessened? Even when she tried to kill him, it was not because she didn't love him but because she had lost the faith that he was going to get better. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been constant through the manga. We still don't know the final pairings. We know that someone will have to move on, whether it be Naruto or Hinata or Sakura or Lee, who knows.

We have seen scenes where she shows attraction to naruto, and even the databook said she is unsure of her feelings, I know she still has feelings for sasuke I never said she didn't, but IMO out of everyone she has the highest chance in changing her feelings.

[Qia]

Hinata is available: she loves Naruto and is willing to have a future together. She is an amazing woman with all these good qualities. Sakura is an amazing woman, too, but: Sakura loves someone else, not Naruto. How can Naruto keep pestering a woman who has pretty much said "no thanks" to him? Sakura does not want Naruto, she is not in love with him. Naruto knows this, as he knows that she loves another man. I would turn your question around: what reason would exactly motivate Naruto not go from Sakura to Hinata? What reason is there for Naruto to keep clinging to Sakura, with his chances of ever getting together with her as small as they are?

---

Actually, Sakura hasn't rejected Naruto. In fact, before the confession, it was obvious that she didn't think that his feelings for her were quite so serious, hence her reaction. And even after her confession, she states "if you don't like me then just tell me" And Naruto doesn't exactly give her a clear answer to that. He sort of pushes it aside as if he's not ready to tell her how he feels. Instead, he decides to ask her why she would come all that way to tell him that. My point is though is that there was absolutely no rejection from Sakura there. She never once stated after "You're right, Naruto. I don't love you. I love Sasuke" even when the confession had failed.

You'd think that she would make sure to clarify things with him when everything was done, and give him an explanation considering she doesn't know what Sai might have said to Naruto's group after her group had left.

And about how is it that Naruto can't give up on Sakura already. Well...it's not like he's been given any new reason to do so. From the time that she asked him to bring Sasuke back for her, it was obvious to him that she really liked him. Yet, his feelings had remained and then he made the POAL. And then after leaving her for two years, you'd think that he would try to get over her during that time, but his feelings remain even then. In fact, they've seemed to matured and grown. "Absence is to love as wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small and kindles the great."

And then with the confession I actually believe it didn't diminish his resolve at all. What it did do, however, is put Sakura's feelings for Naruto into question because, at the end of the day, Sakura hasn't approached him about it. She hasn't said to him "Well Naruto...you probably already know that I'd lied to you. I'm sorry but...I don't love you." There was absolutely no apology on her part, and I refuse to believe that Sakura is that cruel. He knows that Sakura loves Sasuke, but his knowledge is mostly based on how she was in the past (hence why most of his flashbacks were of that time), and then he applies it to how she is now (ONE flashback of her just saying his name. I'd like to add here, in Sakura's defense, that she hadn't seen Sasuke in how long now? And both her and Naruto have been wanting to get him back for how long now? Exactly.) "Well she's crying over him" or "She's shocked to see him", so that MUST mean that her feelings haven't changed is Naruto's perspective (which may not be the case in Sakura's perspective, but he doesn't know that). And of course, him being Naruto and all, it would be hard for him to believe that she does now (but it doesn't completely get rid of the simple fact that she MAY. And it's because of that small possibility that he hasn't been given a reason to give up yet).

And about the evidence that you're asking for to show that she may have changed her mind, it's not exactly fair to ask for it considering you just consider all of those moments red herrings. Just saying. (This is from your reply to Toast).

Edited by Qia, 27 January 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I don't see how you could think that Naruto only held her hand to give chakra. What was he thanking her for then? She had just helped him a lot. It could be just a platonic moment, of course, but it is more than just chakra transfer.

I guess it's possible that we all NH supporters are overthinking it. Why I don't really think that is because we have so many other NH moments in the chapters these days. Kishi is writing these moments for some reason. Like that arm fixing in 617. I'm still impressed that Kishi went out of his way to show that Hinata could help Naruto with his injuries in the middle of the attack. If Kishi is going to just sink NH, why include moments like that?

Oh man i love double standards.
there's no reason for Naruto to move on.

About the bolded i didnt knew that you are obligated to love back someome who can heal your injuries.
Because you know Sakura healed Naruto thoughout the entire manga.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[Zatheko]

She can change her mind but what evidence is there in the manga that she has changed mind already or that she might change her mind? Anything's possible, I guess, but nothing's guaranteed. There is no law agaist the main male character changing his mind, for example.


And we haven't been shown anything that shows that Sakura sees Naruto as more than a friend. We are even in this. All your examples are so vague that I can read them and see no romance in them.

May be true, but in an anime with a main character who "never gives up" it is out of place to have him be the one to change his feelings, it makes more sense for him to overcome his goals and to finally win her over.

The fact that she has flirted with him more than once means she could eventually be open to it, naruto never blushes around hinata so that is the one with zero romantic intentions coming from naruto.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

We have seen scenes where she shows attraction to naruto, and even the databook said she is unsure of her feelings, I know she still has feelings for sasuke I never said she didn't, but IMO out of everyone she has the highest chance in changing her feelings.

This is going to be a yes-no-yes-no-yes-no-yes-no exchange from now on, isn't it? Well, I personally don't see those moments and I think that most people, even NS fans, would not argue that all those moments between Sakura and Naruto show that Sakura is definitely in love with Naruto. And being unsure about your feelings is not the same as being in love with Naruto. It doesn't help your argument that the unsurety part comes from sources outside the manga either. This is something we have to, again, just agree to disagree.

May be true, but in an anime with a main character who "never gives up" it is out of place to have him be the one to change his feelings, it makes more sense for him to overcome his goals and to finally win her over.

The fact that she has flirted with him more than once means she could eventually be open to it, naruto never blushes around hinata so that is the one with zero romantic intentions coming from naruto.

When has Sakura even been stated to be Naruto's goal? All I remember is Naruto wanting to impress her back in the day. His most stated goals are to become a hokage and getting back/saving/helping Sasuke.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[redragon88]

The argument I have heard goes that Obito and Jiraiya closed their eyes to other possible loves in their live because they kept going after women who were not available to them. So Naruto will break their pattern by realizing that Sakura will never love him and accepting this and moving on and finding love because he did not cling to the past. We don't know if Jiraiya and Obito had other girls crushing on them, that, IMO, is the weakness of this argument. Otherwise it makes sense, though. How can Naruto, Jiraiya and Obito keep expecting love from women they know to be in love with some other men? It is better to move on and look for love elsewhere and not wait around for the impossible to happen.

You're kind of forgetting that this series is based on achieving the impossible. You ask why on earth doesn't Naruto keep loving Sakura when it looks like a loosing battle. I could very well ask you why on earth does Naruto keep on hope about Sasuke when that also looks like a loosing battle.

You can't pick and choose where does Naruto gets to have resolve. And even if Sakura never loved him back Naruto doesn't seem like the type to stop loving her. Jiraiya never stopped loving Tsunade, and Kishi never made those feelings look as something negative. Kishi makes sure to let us know that Jiraiya and Obito's feelings where very real and not to be underestimated as something that they would get over with.

And now Naruto has worked hard at impressing Sakura. For +600 chapters. And she is still in love with the terrorist murderer bad guy who doesn't even love her back. This is telling. Naruto has tried to make Sakura fall for him, and the confession scene shows us that Sakura knows what a great guy Naruto is. And yet, she still does not love him. At some point Naruto has to realize that no amount of hard work is necessarily going to make a girl fall in love with you. You can't (nor should you) force someone to love you.

It really is telling, but not in the way you think. The point of having Sakura not fall in love with Naruto so easily goes along with how nothing Naruto does could ever possibly come off as simple. Everything he wants is a challenge. And it would make the most sense that his hugest challenge involves the people that are closest to him: Sakura and Sasuke. That Team 7 connection will be dragged until the very end.

Also, why on earth are you implying that Naruto is working hard to force Sakura to love him? That's just wrong. You know very well that when we say that Naruto works hard for Sakura is for the sake of making her happy regardless of anything. We admire Naruto's dedication to Sakura, and it makes us aware that she's the one girl that will make him the happiest. That's why we support Sakura coming to fall for Naruto.

Hinata is available: she loves Naruto and is willing to have a future together. She is an amazing woman with all these good qualities. Sakura is an amazing woman, too, but: Sakura loves someone else, not Naruto. How can Naruto keep pestering a woman who has pretty much said "no thanks" to him? Sakura does not want Naruto, she is not in love with him. Naruto knows this, as he knows that she loves another man. I would turn your question around: what reason would exactly motivate Naruto not go from Sakura to Hinata? What reason is there for Naruto to keep clinging to Sakura, with his chances of ever getting together with her as small as they are?

Oh dear God. You do realize that every argument about Hinata being available for Naruto can be said about Naruto being available for Sakura.

So you ask me: what reason would exactly motivate Naruto not go from Sakura to Hinata?
So how about I ask you: what reason would exactly motivate Sakura not go from Sasuke to Naruto?

So you ask: What reason is there for Naruto to keep clinging to Sakura?
So I ask: What reason is there for Sakura to keep clinging to Sasuke?
and also: What reason is there for Hinata to keep clinging to Naruto?

Evey question that you can do about Naruto, I can do right back about Sakura and Hinata. You really aren't gonna get anywhere with that.

And you know what? You are absolutely correct: just sitting around is probably not going to get you to be noticed. Which is probably why Kishi wrote Hinata to do all these things that got Naruto's notice. He noticed her when she stood up to Neji in their fight in the chuunin exams. He noticed her during missions when she talked to him, even briefly and just to say something like "let's do our best". He noticed her when she jumped in front of Pain and confessed her love to Naruto. He noticed her when she defended him to Kiba and others when Naruto came to help them earlier in the war arc. Naruto noticed her when Neji and she defended him. He noticed her when she slapped his face (hard not to, ) and gave her speech. He noticed her when she fixed his arm during the very latest chapter. Hinata is doing all these things and getting noticed by Naruto. She is not laying home in her bed, wondering when her Naruto, her Prince Charming, is going to come to get her.

If noticing someone equals love then the Naruto world right now has some kind of weird metaphorical orgy going on.

Naruto has done stuff that takes Sakura's notice as well. Even way back in the Zabuza arc we had her say "What's this feeling? This is Naruto." Which ironically is way more then anything Naruto has ever thought about Hinata.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

When has Sakura even been stated to be Naruto's goal? All I remember is Naruto wanting to impress her back in the day. His most stated goals are to become a hokage and getting back/saving/helping Sasuke.

The same way i can say that winning Rin's love was never the ultimate goal for Obito, it was shown that he wanted to be a hokage someday and surpass kakashi.
Both Naruto, Obito and Jyraia never forced their loved ones to love them back, never focused on them but still they were happy with this love, Jiraiya goals were about bringing peace to the world.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[FrenchMyToast]

She can change her mind but what evidence is there in the manga that she has changed mind already or that she might change her mind? Anything's possible, I guess, but nothing's guaranteed. There is no law agaist the main male character changing his mind, for example.


And we haven't been shown anything that shows that Sakura sees Naruto as more than a friend. We are even in this. All your examples are so vague that I can read them and see no romance in them.

Both of those literally bring up the topic of love. I guess you have to assume more for the Tenchi Bridge thing, but why stop mid-sentence if he was just going to say "care for him as a friend..." If you can honestly read through those without seeing any romance, you're in denial. One was from Sakura's POV, the other from Naruto's. Heck, the handholding wasn't even romantic to me until Hinata talked about his hand. Then I realized she saw it as something more (probably). If Naruto commented on her hand...then yeah NH would be pretty damn close to canon, but he didn't.
In the end, we can go in circles with this whole thing. Kishi has done a good job of ensuring that. This probably won't be resolved any time soon. Last arc probably.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Actually, Sakura hasn't rejected Naruto.

She has turned down his requests for dates or just ignored them, though, and otherwise made it clear to Naruto that she is not interested in him. Naruto knows she loves another man.

In fact, before the confession, it was obvious that she didn't think that his feelings for her were quite so serious, hence her reaction.

Do you mean the scene where she cries after Sai tells her about Naruto's feelings? My take of that scene was quite a bit different. I think she knew how Naruto felt and was sad and called him an idiot for it because she knew that she did not love Naruto the same way.

And even after her confession, she states "if you don't like me then just tell me" And Naruto doesn't exactly give her a clear answer to that. He sort of pushes it aside as if he's not ready to tell her how he feels. Instead, he decides to ask her why she would come all that way to tell him that. My point is though is that there was absolutely no rejection from Sakura there. She never once stated after "You're right, Naruto. I don't love you. I love Sasuke" even when the confession had failed.

Yeah, Kishi does that a lot with NS, doesn't he? Creates these moments between Naruto and Sakura that are just not clear. He never seems to make it clear that Sakura is in love with Naruto, for example. And in the scene you mention Naruto does not even answer whether he still wants Sakura. Why? Could it maybe be because Naruto already has moved on from her? Or is he too embarrassed to admit still wanting her because he knows that Sakura herself is faking her love? You remember our talk earlier about how Sakura not stating things clearly that she does not love Naruto certainly leaves room for interpretion but is far from proving that she does love him? Same thing here.

You'd think that she would make sure to clarify things with him when everything was done, and give him an explanation considering she doesn't know what Sai might have said to Naruto's group after her group had left.

I think we have to see a scene like this one, no matter what pairings happen. Kishi could even make it a flashback back to when Naruto and Sakura came back home after the summit arc and only now show it to the readers.

And about how is it that Naruto can't give up on Sakura already. Well...it's not like he's been given any new reason to do so. From the time that she asked him to bring Sasuke back for her, it was obvious to him that she really liked him. Yet, his feelings had remained and then he made the POAL. And then after leaving her for two years, you'd think that he would try to get over her during that time, but his feelings remain even then. In fact, they've seemed to matured and grown. "Absence is to love as wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small and kindles the great."

If anything, that quote reminds me of Naruto's relationship to Sasuke. Doesn't Naruto even say that he wants to be the wind to Sasuke's fire? Oh Kishi...

Seriously, though. If Sakura has not fallen for Naruto despite everything that they have been though, that in itself is enough for Naruto to move on. Can't force that love. Hinata is there, she is a great support and help to Naruto, she is willing to be with him. Why not move on?

And then with the confession I actually believe it didn't diminish his resolve at all. What it did do, however, is put Sakura's feelings for Naruto into question because, at the end of the day, Sakura hasn't approached him about it. She hasn't said to him "Well Naruto...you probably already know that I'd lied to you. I'm sorry but...I don't love you." There was absolutely no apology on her part, and I refuse to believe that Sakura is that cruel. He knows that Sakura loves Sasuke, but his knowledge is mostly based on how she was in the past (hence why most of his flashbacks were of that time), and then he applies it to how she is now (ONE flashback of her just saying his name. I'd like to add here, in Sakura's defense, that she hadn't seen Sasuke in how long now? And both her and Naruto have been wanting to get him back for how long now? Exactly.) "Well she's crying over him" or "She's shocked to see him", so that MUST mean that her feelings haven't changed is Naruto's perspective (which may not be the case in Sakura's perspective, but he doesn't know that). And of course, him being Naruto and all, it would be hard for him to believe that she does now (but it doesn't completely get rid of the simple fact that she MAY. And it's because of that small possibility that he hasn't been given a reason to give up yet).

Sakura knows she doesn't love Naruto. Naruto knows she doesn't love him. Naruto is told by Sai how Sakura plans to kill Sasuke because she loves Sasuke so much. Sakura has never indicated that she is in love with Naruto, except in the confession, which Naruto dismissed as a lie. Does Naruto need her stating the obvious, "I don't love you, sorry"? There might be scene like that to make it all clear to the readers, but it is not like Naruto hasn't realized it all on his own.

And about the evidence that you're asking for to show that she may have changed her mind, it's not exactly fair to ask for it considering you just consider all of those moments red herrings. Just saying. (This is from your reply to Toast).

Well, it goes back to my opinion that no moment between NS has yet been obvious enough for me to think that Sakura is in love with Naruto. And no moment that I have seen has shown me that Sakura no longer loves Sasuke. So it is hard for me to see how Sakura is the most likely one to change her mind.


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Both of those literally bring up the topic of love. I guess you have to assume more for the Tenchi Bridge thing, but why stop mid-sentence if he was just going to say "care for him as a friend..." If you can honestly read through those without seeing any romance, you're in denial. One was from Sakura's POV, the other from Naruto's. Heck, the handholding wasn't even romantic to me until Hinata talked about his hand. Then I realized she saw it as something more (probably). If Naruto commented on her hand...then yeah NH would be pretty damn close to canon, but he didn't.
In the end, we can go in circles with this whole thing. Kishi has done a good job of ensuring that. This probably won't be resolved any time soon. Last arc probably.

Well, Kishi has left so many moments between NS vague and unclear. It is possible that bridge scene is a red herring, not a genuine hint at NS. The handholding, too, is still vague enough to leave room that Naruto is not in love with Hinata. The same with the hug, the bridge scene and so on.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[FrenchMyToast]

Yeah, but generally speaking, all the "romantic" scenes are left pretty open for assumption. Kishi never really sets anything in stone, which is why we can debate things like this. You'd probably struggle to find five romantic moments for BOTH sides in the whole series between NS, SS, and NH. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, huh?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

She has turned down his requests for dates or just ignored them, though, and otherwise made it clear to Naruto that she is not interested in him. Naruto knows she loves another man.

She accepted the last one, but Naruto didnt had the money to pay for it.

Do you mean the scene where she cries after Sai tells her about Naruto's feelings? My take of that scene was quite a bit different. I think she knew how Naruto felt and was sad and called him an idiot for it because she knew that she did not love Naruto the same way.

She said he was a fool to be in love with her not because she did not loved him but because she thought she only bring burden to Naruto, she does not view herself as a strong girl, or a girl that deserves his love.

Sakura knows she doesn't love Naruto. Naruto knows she doesn't love him. Naruto is told by Sai how Sakura plans to kill Sasuke because she loves Sasuke so much. Sakura has never indicated that she is in love with Naruto, except in the confession, which Naruto dismissed as a lie. Does Naruto need her stating the obvious, "I don't love you, sorry"? There might be scene like that to make it all clear to the readers, but it is not like Naruto hasn't realized it all on his own.

Why she declared for Naruto then?
If she did only for Sasuke she could go simply look after him without passing by Naruto.
it's kinda obvious that she wanted to kill Sasuke because she loved him but the reason that motivated her to do this was the "i dont want to be a burden to Naruto".
So she wanted to do something for Naruto at the cost of herself, sacrificing herself in a selfless way for Naruto, even if Naruto hates her in the end she wont care because she would be happy because she lifted Naruto's burden.
It was a heroish moment for Sakura but ofc Sakura haters can only see "she did that for Sasuke and she was lying to Naruto manipulating him".
But i dont use this scene as an evidence it for me pretty much described that for Her Naruto is more important than Sasuke, and the fact that Kishimoto wanted to do a remake of the scene changing some stuff it's a proof that the scene didnt went the way he wanted to make he didnt liked the comment from Sakura's VA which is the same as your's.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

You're kind of forgetting that this series is based on achieving the impossible. You ask why on earth doesn't Naruto keep loving Sakura when it looks like a loosing battle. I could very well ask you why on earth does Naruto keep on hope about Sasuke when that also looks like a loosing battle.


You can't pick and choose where does Naruto gets to have resolve. And even if Sakura never loved him back Naruto doesn't seem like the type to stop loving her. Jiraiya never stopped loving Tsunade, and Kishi never made those feelings look as something negative. Kishi makes sure to let us know that Jiraiya and Obito's feelings where very real and not to be underestimated as something that they would get over with.

But Sasuke is Naruto's stated goal, again and again and again Naruto mentions wanting to bring him back. Where are all the moments where he can't shut his mouth about how he needs to get it on with Sakura? Naruto wanting to be with Sakura and wanting to save Sasuke, respectively, are not presented as equal goals. It is possible that Naruto will forever be in love with Sakura but not getting together with her is not a big failure for him. Not becoming hokage and not saving Sasuke would be. (Anyway. When has Naruto even stated that Sakura is his goal?)

It really is telling, but not in the way you think. The point of having Sakura not fall in love with Naruto so easily goes along with how nothing Naruto does could ever possibly come off as simple. Everything he wants is a challenge. And it would make the most sense that his hugest challenge involves the people that are closest to him: Sakura and Sasuke. That Team 7 connection will be dragged until the very end.

God, I saw this mentioned in the Naruto Forums and honest, my first thought was:

"Sasuke is a terrorist and a murderer, Sakura is a girl who just doesn't fall for Naruto. Two hardest challenges? Totally on the same level, my ass. "

Sasuke is like the most important thing to Naruto. Saving him is more important to Naruto than becoming a hokage, and he has wanted that from the very beginning. Sakura is a girl he has romantic feelings for. Again, when has Sakura even stated to be one of Naruto's goals?

Also, why on earth are you implying that Naruto is working hard to force Sakura to love him? That's just wrong. You know very well that when we say that Naruto works hard for Sakura is for the sake of making her happy regardless of anything. We admire Naruto's dedication to Sakura, and it makes us aware that she's the one girl that will make him the happiest. That's why we support Sakura coming to fall for Naruto.

If he does not give up on trying to get Sakura even after she has made it totally clear that she does not want him, then it is Naruto forcing her to be with him. It has not yet gone so far, and I doubt Kishi will ever let it go so far. This is why I see Naruto either moving on or Sakura falling for him. Doubt that Sakura and Sasuke get together and at their wedding reception Kishi will portray Naruto hitting on the newlywed Sakura.

Oh dear God. You do realize that every argument about Hinata being available for Naruto can be said about Naruto being available for Sakura.

Sure. But Sakura has been stated again and again to be in love with Sasuke. When was it last mentioned that Naruto was in love with Sakura, still?

Your questions:

So how about I ask you: what reason would exactly motivate Sakura not go from Sasuke to Naruto?

Apparently her undying love for him, made clear in the summit arc and in ch 540 again. There is nothing that stops Sakura from moving on, in itself, but the manga so far hasn't potrayed this at all.

So I ask: What reason is there for Sakura to keep clinging to Sasuke?

Her hope that he will come back and maybe things will be different between them. She gave up that hope once, but even then she still loved him. Sakura just loves Sasuke. This keeps getting shown again and again through the manga.

and also: What reason is there for Hinata to keep clinging to Naruto?

After recent chapters, very real hope that Naruto is falling for her.

Evey question that you can do about Naruto, I can do right back about Sakura and Hinata. You really aren't gonna get anywhere with that.

My point is just to get you to see that things are not as obvious as you think. That the manga is still full of potential and possibilities for pairings other than NS. That's all.

If noticing someone equals love then the Naruto world right now has some kind of weird metaphorical orgy going on.
Naruto has done stuff that takes Sakura's notice as well. Even way back in the Zabuza arc we had her say "What's this feeling? This is Naruto." Which ironically is way more then anything Naruto has ever thought about Hinata.

My response was to a poster who claimed that Hinata has never gotten Naruto to notice her. I simply demostrated how wrong she was. I don't think that noticing someone makes a pairing canon, of course.

--

Yeah, but generally speaking, all the "romantic" scenes are left pretty open for assumption. Kishi never really sets anything in stone, which is why we can debate things like this. You'd probably struggle to find five romantic moments for BOTH sides in the whole series between NS, SS, and NH. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, huh?

Except that we know 100% that Sakura was at least once in love with Sasuke. We know 100% that Hinata is in love with Naruto. Kishi is not that unclear when it comes to NH and SS. We know the girls' feelings to be romantic. We know that Sasuke is not in love with Sakura, at least not yet. Same with Naruto with Hinata. Only recently has Kishi made it unclear whether Naruto is in love with Hinata, too. We also know that Naruto had at least once romantic feelings for Sakura. So no, not all the romantic scenes have been that vague and open to interpretion. Compare the two confessions, Hinata's and Sakura's. Hinata's confession makes it absolutely clear that she is in love with Naruto. Sakura's confession is called to be a lie, by no other person than the one she was confessing to. But you are right, we'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 January 2013 - 08:01 PM.