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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#9101 deviouslyChaotic

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:07 PM

@Question22

Or maybe he just does not know how to properly write females or accurately depict situations/feelings concerning them without making them look "weak." Sexist is a pretty big label to put on someone. I do not think he is sexist. Sakura, Temari, and Tsunade are all strong females to name a few. He gives Sakura a lot of panel time and attention to help demonstrate her emotions as well as what she's going through, he gives her her shining moments when the time is right, he makes her play a big role in the story. Nowhere in his story does he degrade women or show them as useless wastes of space. He does not show men to be superior to women although some may think so because men seem to have a more "active" role in the story or because none of the females are as strong as Sasuke and Naruto. None of them are stronger than Naruto or Sasuke because this story is about Naruto and Sasuke so it's expected that they become the strongest regardless of gender. If he was sexist, he would've never made a female the head of a village and he would've never shown Sakura getting such a huge and useful power-up as well as playing a big role in the war (and the story as a whole). Could he have depicted women better than he has? Probably, yes, but just because he has not does not mean he's necessarily sexist. He most likely cannot write them as well as others can and that's ok. Sometimes it can be hard to write for the opposite gender.

 

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#9102 sushi.

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:10 PM

Everybody think she is doing nothing and she is useless but no a medic is very appreciated , especially in war

Maybe we can remove the health care for the people that say she "can only heal" and ask them what they say then :th_yeah:


Edited by sushi., 29 September 2013 - 11:10 PM.

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#9103 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:14 PM

It's not easy to have character to change and accept that. Sometimes, we grew to like them or not as one same person. They can learn a few things but characteristic should never change according to some mindset. It was believed that Sakura has her mindset on Sasuke and forever glue to him. Probably because we're not adapt to the concept of moving on and usually we mixes different cultures into one. We relied on something we grew up with. If we use only the experience we have before fully understand a different concept/idea, then we want that to be that way and nothing else. Otherwise, our view would think it's terrible.

Many people are used to love interest at first glance to be one-sided and never able to change direction. You know, how the protagonist would love a girl who dislike him and pretty much bland as in pretty but one dimensional. That's the view on Sakura. No one don't want to accept that she can change. The ironic thing is that they don't want her to change her personality because that's not her yet inner Sakura says otherwise. Look, if Sakura was that character who basically distracts the protagonist from real romance because she is bad as in selfish, popular, or anything that basically say, "Good luck with that. She's bland," then I'll understand. But she's not. She's more down to the earth character that have respect with people. So it's not the same.

#9104 TerrorKing

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:33 PM

@DeviouslyChaotic

This always reminds me of Shikaku's speech to Shikamaru back in part 1. Not only did he provide us with the now famous line "Even the roughest woman is tender to the guy she loves", but he also said that "Men are no good without any women around". This was all in response to Shikamaru's less than enthusiastic attitude towards a women being appointed as the fifth hokage. 

 

So yeah, I also don't think that Kishi is sexist and I certainly don't think he hates women. I think he genuinely cares about his female characters just as much as he does his male characters. In that regard, I think he has done a decent job with Sakura. He could have done better of course, but all things considered I think she's turned out pretty well. As long as there are still important roles for her to fill later on, then I'm okay with it.  :happy: 

 

Besides, he could always ask his wife to assist him once again.  :wink:   


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#9105 sushi.

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:38 PM

I think Kishi did quite well with female characters considering that this manga is first and foremost about brotherhood.

 

He could've developed them better, but useless they are not..at all.


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#9106 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:41 PM

I believe Kishi has stated he sees Sakura as his daughter in a way. So the whole "Kishimoto hates Sakura' discussion is out of the way.

 

I don't think Kishimoto is sexist. I think it's just he has trouble developing females. He also said that he had trouble drawing women at first. I don't know if he still does or not (I mean he's been drawing females for a while now, so he should have an easier time with them)

 

And a good number of his females are pretty bad ass. Definitely people I'd want to avoid if I ever got on their bad side.

 

Sakura: I'm dead.

 

Kushina: I'm gonna surgery.

 

Temari: I'm gonna walk the other way.

 

Tsunade: I didn't like this life anyway.


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#9107 Inferno180

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:48 PM

I honestly think its kinda bad at this point for people to make a fuss over Sakura I mean Shikamaru is the second major fan favorite character she is currently trying to heal. Well shikamaru has an important role in the story unlike Hinata and people still over look  Sakura healing Hinata. I mean yeah Nagato's revival could have saved her but did they seriously want Hinata to have died for something pointless? That would have essentially made the whole pain ordeal even more overblown. I mean Gaara was revived but his development after this bridged so many more things later on.

 

Anyways, how long till a NS moment? Not sure anywhere from 10-20 chapters I would say like most people. Honestly, I woundn't be suprised if a future chapter is called Naruto's confession like how there was Hinata's first, then Sakura's attempt to free Naruto, then why not finally get Naruto confessing to Sakura? Heck if the 15 minutes are near up and the tree is still standing (which I bet will be the case) at a near future point, Naruto will tell her in the case of at least knowing he can have no more regrets (as he said he wants no more regrets but a future NS moment can come from anything at this point, the Sasuke situation later, if Naruto's memories are conveyed more with focus on Sakura, or a last regrets thing to be clear before the end, its all possible at this point).



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#9108 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:53 PM

...This can't end good...

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Edited by Fairy Tail Fantard, 29 September 2013 - 11:56 PM.

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#9109 rocci

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:03 AM

Hmmm I think one of the reason why there's so many hate for sakura in naruto fandom, because they think sakura is the symbol of kishimoto's failure in this manga. Including the high(& sometime unrealistic) expectation they look at sakura.

#9110 morgaine4

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:28 AM

You know in 632, people thought Sakura would kick ass. Then whether we admit it or not, she was put to the sidelines again. She is healing and yes that is very useful, but I think especially boys(which the mangaka aimes for) roots for action and combat type characters. She's healing fodder, but I don't know how much it matters did not see many praising Karin who healed Tsunade, an important and useful character. We'll see the reactions when Sakura saves Shikamaru(avoid them if she doesn't :excited: )

 

She's healing fodder, she's also the "human" compnent to the three main characters.  Naruto is a sort of god-like figure always guided by his heart, Sasuke's a demon-like figure always guided by his desire to protect himself, Sakura's the human tempted to some extent by both sides.

 

She's also an individual who unlike her teammates isn't destined for someting big (not in the way Naruto and Sasuke are), she's also not genetically advanced in the way Naruto and Sasuke are.  Of Team 7, she's the biggest representation of a major part 1 theme, the notion that one can be great by working hard and by fostering one's personal strengths while also working to improve one's weaknesses.  She'll never be as powerful as Naruto and Sasuke, she should never be as powerful as them (granted, I wish that Naruto and Sasuke weren't as powerful as they are, haha) regardless she is their teammate, she's finally their teammate not just in name, but in action.  She can't do the things that they can, but let's not forget they can't do the things that she can, they can't learn the things that's she's worked hard to learn to do.  Think about it, Naruto and Sasuke's abilities are based on their ability to work with what their genetic material/families' legacy provided to them, they take what they have and do things that others can't do.  Sakura's abilities are based on taking outside information/tactics, understanding them, and training her body to use them.  It's quite remarkable that someone who is nobody in terms of clan/heritage was able to learn and perform a Senju-Uzumaki technique (and at such a young age).

 

 

@Question22

Or maybe he just does not know how to properly write females or accurately depict situations/feelings concerning them without making them look "weak." Sexist is a pretty big label to put on someone. I do not think he is sexist. Sakura, Temari, and Tsunade are all strong females to name a few. He gives Sakura a lot of panel time and attention to help demonstrate her emotions as well as what she's going through, he gives her her shining moments when the time is right, he makes her play a big role in the story. Nowhere in his story does he degrade women or show them as useless wastes of space. He does not show men to be superior to women although some may think so because men seem to have a more "active" role in the story or because none of the females are as strong as Sasuke and Naruto. None of them are stronger than Naruto or Sasuke because this story is about Naruto and Sasuke so it's expected that they become the strongest regardless of gender. If he was sexist, he would've never made a female the head of a village and he would've never shown Sakura getting such a huge and useful power-up as well as playing a big role in the war (and the story as a whole). Could he have depicted women better than he has? Probably, yes, but just because he has not does not mean he's necessarily sexist. He most likely cannot write them as well as others can and that's ok. Sometimes it can be hard to write for the opposite gender.

 

 

I think therea are a lot of interesting and strong females in the Naruto-verse, but the problem often is in the way they're presented.  Kushina, for example, no doubt that she's strong but we barely got to see it.  I know that Kishimoto had a purpose in explaining Minato-Kushina's love story, it showed us what sort of love he prefers, and was essentially a reallllly simplified version of Naruto and Sakura's love story, but I wish we got to learn more about her, what her techniques were (other than chakra chains), what she did during the 3rd Shinobi War, why she decided she was happy marrying the 4th Hokage and decided she no longer wanted to be the first female Hokage.  But, I think a large problem isn't just that Kishi has problems writing characters who are female (I think he isn't great at it, I think he'd improve if he thought of charcters who are female as characters who happen to be female, rather than female characters) but also that in this point of the story (and really, this was the case from the very beginning) it's so Naruto and Sasuke-centric, so MALE-centric that it's almost inevitable that all the females will somehow be defined by the males in their life.  Earlier on, maybe up till te Pain arc the male-centricness of the manga could have been changed (if the Ame-team's gender makeup had been reversed), but at this point it's too late.  I do think Kishi is affected by the gendered nature of human society --everyone is, and it takes quite a bit of effort to try to overcome such programming-- but, I don't know that I see him as sexist necessarily.  I do think though that the Naruto-verse is not only male-centric in terms of how it was presented to us, but that it is a pretty gendered-society (which is why Tsunade and Sakura had to mention that their gender doesn't make them "less than").  If anything, I think I'd suggest that in future projects Kishi write characters as "character first" rather than writing female characters as "gender first" (not that I am an authority, not that I have the right to offer someone like Kishi advice), but I don't see him as sexist (though, I have noticed that in some cases some of the greatest "loudest" critics claiming that Kishi is sexist, are also some of the same people who are fasted to use sexist/misogynistic language to criticize/describe female characters, isn't that interesting?)

 

morgaine4,

I think I'm in love with like every single one of your posts. You're so logical and concise!  :eager:

 

Oh *blush* thanks!  I'm always worried that I come off as so biased, haha.  I'm actually quite surprised at how unbiased people here are H&E are.  Not saying that there isn't bias, that's inevitable, but there's so much effort to try to be objective, I guess H&E isn't just for NS-love, but is a haven for us "unpopular kids" who happen to like an unpopular character and ship (among other things).  I know as a Sakura fan, it's hard for me to particpate elsewhere because of the major hatred for the character.

 

 

Maybe we can remove the health care for the people that say she "can only heal" and ask them what they say then :th_yeah:

 

Honestly, what's the point of 'winning' a war if the population of the winner's side is nearly decimated?  Defeating the enemy is only half the battle, the other half is keeping as many of one's "brothers in arms" alive.

 

 

I think Kishi did quite well with female characters considering that this manga is first and foremost about brotherhood.

 

He could've developed them better, but useless they are not..at all.

 

Maybe it's just my bias, but I like to think that I adore Sakura because of the way I've always read her.  I honestly think that Sakura, Sakura's subtle and continuous changes, Sakura's attempts to change herself, the fact that Sakura is prone to failure but still tries to do something etc etc is one of the greatest strengths of the manga.  Sakura is ever changing, she wasn't the same person at the beginning of chapter three, that she was at the end of chapter three and she has continued to change, to grow, to fall back a couple steps, then surge ahead since then.  Sakura is a well-intentioned, but flawed character, but it is her flaws, her human struggles that I love about her and her journey throughout the manga is IMO something that Kishimoto has done exceptionally well.

 

 

I mean yeah Nagato's revival could have saved her but did they seriously want Hinata to have died for something pointless? That would have essentially made the whole pain ordeal even more overblown. I mean Gaara was revived but his development after this bridged so many more things later on.
 

 

Could Nagato have saved Hinata though?  People say that, but if one examines manga facts technically that wouldn't have been possible as Hinata wasn't dead yet --Nagato wasn't healing anyone, he was returning the lives he had taken.  Had Sakura been late, and had Hinata died after Nagato returned those lives, Hinata would not have been "saved."



#9111 deviouslyChaotic

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 01:43 AM

 

Honestly, what's the point of 'winning' a war if the population of the winner's side is nearly decimated?  Defeating the enemy is only half the battle, the other half is keeping as many of one's "brothers in arms" alive.

It's funny you say that because this situation has certainly occurred in history. At the beginning of the Revolutionary War, the colonists planned to gain their independence and freedom not by necessarily winning the war, but by outliving the British which proved to be successful in many ways. Take the Battle of Bunker Hill as an example. It was surely a major battle. The British ended up seizing the hill and, technically speaking, defeated the colonists in this battle. However, they did not necessarily win per say. They suffered major losses (I think nearly three times as many casualties as the colonists) while the colonist didn't experience losses nearly as large in this specific battle. Such immense losses made it not seem like a win at all. They seized the hill from "inexperienced" colonies at the cost of many lives. The plan to outlive the British was working. wow kind of off-topic oops.

 

Oh *blush* thanks!  I'm always worried that I come off as so biased, haha.  I'm actually quite surprised at how unbiased people here are H&E are.  Not saying that there isn't bias, that's inevitable, but there's so much effort to try to be objective, I guess H&E isn't just for NS-love, but is a haven for us "unpopular kids" who happen to like an unpopular character and ship (among other things).  I know as a Sakura fan, it's hard for me to particpate elsewhere because of the major hatred for the character.

Haha, you're welcome! I think you do a fine job of looking at things from an objective point of view. Being extra cautious concerning you're own unavoidable bias certainly helps reinforce your particularly well objectivity. Of course, like you said, there will always be a little bias whenever debating, but trying one's best to stay more on the "neutral" side (well, as neutral as one can get in a debate I suppose) and to look at things from both perspectives is certainly the best way to go about discussions. Yes, that's a reason as to why I finally joined this site back in July. I saw it as a safe haven and I am glad everyone here is very well-spoken, logical and--most importantly-- welcoming :).

 

I think therea are a lot of interesting and strong females in the Naruto-verse, but the problem often is in the way they're presented.  Kushina, for example, no doubt that she's strong but we barely got to see it.  I know that Kishimoto had a purpose in explaining Minato-Kushina's love story, it showed us what sort of love he prefers, and was essentially a reallllly simplified version of Naruto and Sakura's love story, but I wish we got to learn more about her, what her techniques were (other than chakra chains), what she did during the 3rd Shinobi War, why she decided she was happy marrying the 4th Hokage and decided she no longer wanted to be the first female Hokage.  But, I think a large problem isn't just that Kishi has problems writing characters who are female (I think he isn't great at it, I think he'd improve if he thought of charcters who are female as characters who happen to be female, rather than female characters) but also that in this point of the story (and really, this was the case from the very beginning) it's so Naruto and Sasuke-centric, so MALE-centric that it's almost inevitable that all the females will somehow be defined by the males in their life.  Earlier on, maybe up till te Pain arc the male-centricness of the manga could have been changed (if the Ame-team's gender makeup had been reversed), but at this point it's too late.  I do think Kishi is affected by the gendered nature of human society --everyone is, and it takes quite a bit of effort to try to overcome such programming-- but, I don't know that I see him as sexist necessarily.  I do think though that the Naruto-verse is not only male-centric in terms of how it was presented to us, but that it is a pretty gendered-society (which is why Tsunade and Sakura had to mention that their gender doesn't make them "less than").  If anything, I think I'd suggest that in future projects Kishi write characters as "character first" rather than writing female characters as "gender first" (not that I am an authority, not that I have the right to offer someone like Kishi advice), but I don't see him as sexist (though, I have noticed that in some cases some of the greatest "loudest" critics claiming that Kishi is sexist, are also some of the same people who are fasted to use sexist/misogynistic language to criticize/describe female characters, isn't that interesting?)

Ah, I see where you're coming from. A little more Kushina certainly wouldn't hurt. More background information on her can certainly help develop and "complete" her character. Yes it is pretty male-centric. I recall someone on here saying how it would've been interesting if Sasuke was a girl and to see what it'd be like had Naruto became rivals with a female. I wonder how the story would differ from what it originally is, or if it would differ at all for that matter. It's an interesting thought. As for the bolded, that is an interesting view point for that seems to be a logical reason as to why he has this "problem" concerning females. When creating Sakura, he most likely first thought of how he needed to create a heroine to complete his story and just went from there, thus first focusing on the gender more than anything else.


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#9112 Question22

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:02 AM

Oh god its getting boring here there is nothing to debate eh xD


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#9113 Question22

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:13 AM

Oh and btw i got a question regarding NH

 

Hinata promised she will stop chasing after Naruto after the war she got her hand holding

i think this is where kishi is ending her development so without Hinata NH is pretty much dead?


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#9114 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:22 AM

Oh and btw i got a question regarding NH

 

Hinata promised she will stop chasing after Naruto after the war she got her hand holding

i think this is where kishi is ending her development so without Hinata NH is pretty much dead?

As I stated in a post earlier, yes, NH is pretty much done. Especially after 631.


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#9115 Question22

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:24 AM

So NH is almost dead SS is dead = NaruSaku FTW!


Edited by Question22, 30 September 2013 - 02:24 AM.

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#9116 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:26 AM

So NH is almost dead SS is dead = NaruSaku FTW!

Actually, I think SS still has a slight chance of happening. But I'm 100% positive it's time to bury NH.


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#9117 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:42 AM

So NH is almost dead SS is dead = NaruSaku FTW!

The way I see it.

 

NH = Dead since 631 or 632. Choose as you wish.

 

SS = Dead or soon to be dead. Dead for those who see the last moment for SS back in part 1 as the finale. This is arguable to be honest because not only the moment never happens again (must require both), but there are notes that claimed that Sakura used to like Sasuke. That said many would choose the second option because of her recurring feelings; however, due to the buildup, it would appear that SS is near to be confirmed dead.

 

NS = Great condition, on hold for the right moment, and stable.


Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 30 September 2013 - 02:42 AM.


#9118 Question22

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

I still wonder why everybody hates our ship , and we respect their ship it just illogical to me


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#9119 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

I wonder how many chapters Naruto will be when it ends... 


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#9120 Fairy Tail Fantard

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:56 AM

I still wonder why everybody hates our ship , and we respect their ship it just illogical to me

Part 1 Sakura if anything.

 

I honestly don;t see what the big fuss is with her in early parts of the manga. She started liking him pretty darn fast as far as I can tell. So the argument "Sakura didn't even like Naruto' is a false argument. 

 

Hell, after chapter three, they became friends pretty darn quick. So I don't see what the dealeo is.


Edited by Fairy Tail Fantard, 30 September 2013 - 02:56 AM.

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