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alright, I give up, I'll post!But, can I just say: I respect everyone's opinions, and I'm not trying to make you guys ship SK or anything. I usually try to keep myself at margin from the conversation precisely because I do not want to make anyone feel uncomfortable by bringing SK discussion to the table
but given that it's been a topic of discussion on its own, I hope you don't mind. I don't intend to convince anyone of changing their minds, just touch upon a few things regarding SK's dynamic and Karin's character
QUOTE (FoolishYoungling @ Apr 17 2013, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But how does SK come off as a good pairing to you? Yes I agree that it is better than SS, but how is it any good itself? Sasuke stabbed her through the chest, threw her away like trash, and she forgave him with a simple "sorry Karin"? I don't care if the sorry had a little deeper meaning in Japan translation, if Karin would of just of punched Sasuke, all would be good right now, and I myself would support SK. However, she knocked down Suigetsu (for comedy, I understand that much), yelled at Sasuke a little, and then forgave him. To me this means that she stopped loving Sasuke while locked up, but when he said sorry, she fell back in love with him. To me, Kishimoto has just ruined Karin's character.
Karin never stopped loving Sasuke, and she has not forgiven him, either. In the panel where it was obvious that she was moved by his apology, she continued to insult him. The following panel she proceeded to stomp over to where they were, and indignantly told Oro what Sasuke did to her. Even as she is snuggling up to Sasuke, she still sounds pissed - and while we obviously know better, Karin basically says that she will tag along simply due to Orochimaru.
As far as Sasuke is concerned, he has not been forgiven. Karin was angry throughout the chapter, and she was still angry at the end. All Kishimoto did was make clear to the reader (it's beyond me why people doubted it in the first place, though, giving Kishi's track record) that yes, Karin is still very much in love with Sasuke.
As for why she is still in love with him and willing to work with him despite what he did, leaving the nature and strength of her feelings for him aside: the Sasuke at the Kage Summit was 'the complete opposite of the usual Sasuke', and Karin knows this best of all, because it was her who first noticed the changes and continued to comment on them throughout the whole process.
Moreover, and while I may disagree with how Kishi portrays this sort of business (believe me, I do - if this was all Sasuke turning good was going to take, then he shouldn't have gone so overboard with him in the Kage Summit and the Danzou fight): this is his manga we're talking about, and we all know his track record, sigh. Sad as it may be, the fact that he is letting Karin be righteously pissed at him and even had Sasuke apologizing all on his own means a lot, imo.
Lastly! I find SasuKarin positive for a whole lot of reasons, which is precisely why I'm willing to let Kishi do his thing, accept that this is fiction, and play along
The only negatives they have had were in the period where Sasuke was 'dark', and they were not pointless, either, for they were means to drive home just how much Sasuke had changed (from 'you're necessary' to 'you're an encumbrance', for example). Their usual dynamic though is fairly healthy. Neither is submissive to the other, they acknowledge, trust, respect and rely on each other. They obviously care a lot about each other as well. They accept each other as they are (it goes without saying for Karin, but Sasuke himself does the same thing for her - he did agree with Suigetsu when Suigetsu said Karin's personality wasn't easy to handle 
). And they fit a lot of thematic patterns that Kishi has got going on ('even the toughest of women is tender to the man she loves', 'we become stronger when we have something precious to protect' [Sasuke in Chapter 415], lack of suffixes, the typical hotblooded woman and the more laidback guy, so on so forth - heck what with Karin's Uzumaki legacy, their union may even tie in with Kishi's overall message of peace and what not).QUOTE (Don-kun @ Apr 16 2013, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SS is bad for the story but SK is OK, so much hypocrisy. 
QUOTE (Don-kun @ Apr 17 2013, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So why most of us believe that SS is bad and it send a bad message to the readers?
That's the problem
I've never seen a SasuKarin shipper use Sasuke's actions during the Kage Summit as an Anti-SS argument, so to be honest, I don't quite understand where the 'hypocrisy' claims are coming from.If you think we do not ship or like SS solely due to the murder attempts, with all due respect, you are severely mistaken. Citing my own example: I've disliked SS ever since I began reading Naruto, back in 2005, and I did so even before shipping NaruSaku. My reasons for disliking it are inherently related to the SS dynamic itself, and have nothing to do with the pairings I ship.
What we do say, however, is exactly what Tsubaki so aptly summarized (great post!!). The differences between SasuKarin and SasuSaku completely lie on the way each of them has been portrayed, their effect on the respective characters, and even the role each served during Sasuke's downfall into darkness. While his betrayal of Karin and 'sacrificing' her was his Moral Event Horizon, the SS murder attempts were basically plot-devices to which Sasuke had no reaction whatsoever.
Another easy way to see the difference is to compare Sakura's and Karin's respective flashbacks to Sasuke. While Sakura remembered the thank you, of course, the unseen SS scene was nothing but her blushing at a Sasuke who regarded her with utter indifference. At the contrary, Karin's flashback showcased a Sasuke smiling in a way we had never seen before.
The same applies to the way other characters perceive the SK and SS bonds. You have Naruto, who basically remembered the exact same kind of SS that Sakura herself did (even though there was an age back between both of them). Compare that to the way Suigetsu perceives SasuKarin, going as far as saying that he 'wants to break them up for good!' and that if he and Juugo were to go looking for them, they would be getting in their way because Karin wants to seduce Sasuke (and Sui apparently thinks she will be able to, lol).
You also have their respective roles on Team 7 and Team Taka. While Kishimoto tends to keep SS in a Team 7 related context only, while SasuNaru is the bond that stands out and occupies the most of Sasuke's mind, the same cannot be said of SasuKarin and Taka. It is SasuKarin who gets individualized from the team: she got his only 'I need you', chapter 415, the kage summit, chapter 567 and 574 (all Suigetsu and Juugo did was talk about SasuKarin, and they did so as if SK were an unit), and even their respective reunions with Sasuke.
As for why I am completely anti SS while OTP'ing SK and do not feel in the least bit hypocritical, it's because SS has been portrayed as negative in a way that SK never has. SS was detrimental to Sakura's character (I think it goes without saying that I love Sakura, considering I ship NS like burning) in a way that it simply has never been for Karin's character. Karin has never tried to change herself for Sasuke, does not mute her own opinions or voice her disagreements with meek "S-Sasuke-kun...!"s. Rather than trying to make herself likeable to Sasuke, indirectly dampening her strong personality, Karin shows herself as she is to him and if he doesn't like it, then that's his business.
Take this chapter for example. Sasuke nearly killed Sakura twice - do you really think that if they meet again, Sakura will yell bloody murder at him the way Karin did this chapter?
(now though, I could see her yelling at him if he hurts Naruto again. But I'll leave my NS flailing out for now )And that takes me to Sasuke. He has got an authoritative personality, so to speak, and this added to how submissive Sakura becomes around him (something she is not, hence why SS is detrimental to her character - aside from how sad it makes her feel) makes him be too dominant. You can look back at Part 1 and find more than one instance of Sakura trying to voice her disagreement and Sasuke telling her to shut up, stay out of his business, so on so forth. He did not do it out of malice, of course; that was just him being, well, Sasuke. Which is why the fact that the usual Sasuke has never replied in such a way to Karin, even though she disagrees with him more often than not, stands out more.
Lastly, while he did (and will always) care about Sakura as one of his precious people, I feel Sasuke has been far more responsive to Karin than he was to her.
QUOTE (AzureWaters @ Apr 17 2013, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Karin definitely lusts after Sasuke lol. She's much more "forward" with her affections while Sakura is whimsical. Tbh Sakura comes off as more genuine about it. Largely because of personality.
You said so yourself
Karin and Sakura have different personalities, grew up in different environments, are portrayed differently, and as such, take different approaches to their respective feelings. I understand that you aren't judging their feelings based on this yourself, so I hope you'll forgive me if I take this chance to address a perspective that I've seen more than I can count:You cannot judge Karin's feelings for Sasuke as more or less genuine than Sakura's by simply comparing her to what Sakura does or doesn't do, to how Sakura reacts or doesn't react, because it's a mold that Karin's character archetype simply does not fit.
QUOTE (AzureWaters @ Apr 17 2013, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Despite the initial reason for starting to like Sasuke, the way Karin goes about showing her affections comes off as shallow and more centered on physical attachment instead of emotional.
I don't support or like SasuSaku at all, but I will say that I can handle Sakura's feelings for Sasuke more than Karin's, if just because the reserved way that she expresses it; in stark contrast to the other.
I don't support or like SasuSaku at all, but I will say that I can handle Sakura's feelings for Sasuke more than Karin's, if just because the reserved way that she expresses it; in stark contrast to the other.
Ironically enough, throughout part I, Sakura expressed her feelings for Sasuke more times, and more obnoxiously ("Kyaa!! Sasuke-kun!! Go kick his butt!") than Karin has in the entirety of Part II.
Karin has only made a move on Sasuke (counting this chapter) a grand total of 3 times. And, with the exception of this chapter, all of them were done in private. When it comes to actually having thoughts related to said feelings, Karin has done so... what, around 4 times? She has berated him, saved his life, so on so forth, twice as many times.
But to address a bit the nature of Karin's feelings for him; her genuine desire of seeing him smile again is anything but shallow. If anything, it is selfless, so much so that it immediately reminded me of Naruto's level of devotion for Sakura, wherein he is willing to sacrifice his feelings for her as long as she is happy. Karin went through hell and back for Sasuke, loyally stuck with him through thick and thin - and in her last breath? All she thinks is that she would have liked to see him smile once more. She didn't do so only because she loves him. She genuinely wants to see him happy.
But even before that, things like Chapter 466 spoke for themselves. Karin is not the type to wear her emotions on her sleeve, not if they aren't anger; this is the girl who nearly died at the hands of the guy she loved, and it took her empathizing with Sakura's pain to shed some tears. Yet, we saw her being immediately being moved to tears at the thought of losing Sasuke. That is the kind of thing that speaks volumes when it comes to characters like Karin.
Edited by Kanae, 17 April 2013 - 06:44 AM.
