9679 replies to this topic

[Shadow Wolf]

His "never give up" attitude doesn't change, conveniently or inconveniently. Nonetheless, there's a very noticeable difference between letting his words do the talking and his actions. And this isn't my sentiment, it's the Kyuubi's. How does this relate to being captured by Deva Pain? It's the difference between cursing him out...and going 6-Tails, which itself is the "culmination of all his negative emotions"...and returning to form after Minato appears. There's not giving up no matter what the cost, and then there's not giving up no matter what I have to do, no matter what stands in my way, but I'll still be me. He gave up. Hinata jumped in and aided him, but it wasn't enough. He gave in to the Kyuubi. Gave in to feeling like he was defeated, like he had to surrender himself to evil to win. Then Minato boosted him back to his normal self.

So, yes, he can "give up" if driven to the brink - because the entire comparison to Sasuke revolves around relying on one's own will, power, and comrades versus doing whatever one can to attain greater strength at any cost. And in this scene, he started to pull a Sasuke, whether he wanted to or not.

I want you to answer me one question: what drives our thoughts and what drives our feelings?

When we refer to will, we have to keep in mind the following: will = think - mind. IN the same way, we also know the following: anger = emotion = feelings

Now then, does the fact that I succumb to my feelings means that my resolution in my mind has changed? I don't think so! It means that in the battle of mind versus feelings, my feelings won. However, like a phrase says: "The battle was lost, but not the war." The fact that Naruto gave in to the six tails at that time means that he succumbed to his feelings (The Chapter about Dark Naruto confirms this, which is described as the manifestation of hatred that existed within Naruto's heart and the fact that the Kyuubi fed on Naruto's emotions, specifically, hatred). However, his mind is set on not giving up. Sure, he may need someone who helps him think with his brain again, but we know that this has happened ever since the beginning of the series.

This is what differentiates Naruto of Sasuke: Sasuke has both his mind and his emotions set on revenge (confirmed when he says that he chose to walk the path of darkness). So I have to disagree when you say that Naruto pulled a Sasuke in the fight against Pain.


Oh, and just in case, I have to add one more detail: The fact that he succumbed to his feelings after Hinata was "killed" does not mean he succumbed as an answer to her feelings. He was already angry over the deaths of Kakashi and Jiraiya and on top of that the seal has been weakening.

[Dalton.T.R]

You know...I really want to just yell NaruHina is dead to everyone. But I just know if I do, I'll jinx us all knowing my kinda luck lol. Myself...I'm tired of the arguing. Just make a couple canon and lets move on. As far as I can see, NaruSaku has the ONLY possibility. I wouldn't mind it so much if NH happened, but the fact that it'd just be brought out of the clear blue sky is what stopps me. If it had development, and its fanbase wasn't so...forgive me for this. Retarded! I wouldn't care what happened. But seriously, NaruHina and SasuSaku compared to NaruSaku.........I'm stickin with NaruSaku.

[redragon88]

Kishimoto has nothing to do with the anime. He once mentioned that he offered to present ideas for filler after Part 1, but was turned down. Yes, filler does react to what is in canon. That's why we don't see a great love affair between Naruto and Tenten being explored. The bonds remain the same. But filler can be ignored. As it was in the cases of filler characters like Sora and Guren.

Another example. In the anime filler, the jinchūriki Utakata meets and fights with Naruto before Pain attacked Konoha. But in canon, Naruto does not know Utakata when he sees him during the war. Utakata's backstory remained filler.

The best thing that can be said for filler is that Kishi says he watches the anime every Thursday. So it could become an influence. As was the case with Matsuri, Gaara's love interest. The anime filler actually named her and gave her a backstory. Kishi then made it canon in the databook.

I'm not sure if you're trying to agree or disagree with me here but I'll try to give my best reply about the filler argument.

I know Kishimoto is not directly involved in the production of filler but there is a recent interview with the anime studio Pierrot in which the producer says that they sometimes send him the stories they plan on producing to make sure it goes according to the manga. The interview can be found in this same site. Also if you have a link to were Kishimoto mentions his fillers ideas being turned down I would appreciate it. In all honesty I don't know how they will handle Ukataka in the war when it gets animated but I'm sure they could just add some extra line of Naruto saying he recognizes him.

I understand that fillers can be completely ignored when it comes to one time stories and characters like Sora and Guren. But when it comes to ideologies that have been established in canon, like Naruto's love for Sakura, the argument of it not counting cannot be applied. The anime team wasn't obligated to make such an episode with Naruto reaffirming his feelings for Sakura and I'm pretty sure they respect Kishimoto enough for them to make sure that it wasn't a statement that would later be contradicted in the canon storyline.

Edited by redragon88, 23 February 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[ramenanmitsu]

However, as I've stated I'll argue for NaruHina too, here goes:

1. Naruto's never giving up personality.
I'll admit that certain plot devices will get old after repeated use (not that it's stopped writers before), but we've seen a relatively recent occurrence in which Naruto had, for all intents and purposes, given up. His fighting spirit remained, but if he wasn't drowning in helplessness then I'm a cactus (btw, I'm not). Hinata came in to save him then. In his current War arc, yes, Naruto is set in his purpose to win the battle. But Naruto has given up on something. To some extent...he's resigned himself to his duel with Sasuke. He will not be slain, but he refuses to kill him. If one dies, they die. Is he willing to give up Konoha, his comrades, his friends, his dream of Hokage, to die with his brother? Will dying with him save him from his path, and will killing Sasuke prove that he is unfit to become Hokage? If he doesn't think he can be Hokage if he can't save this friend, and if he believes both will die in the attempt which doesn't seem like saving to me, does he think he can be Hokage? Perhaps he needs to be reminded of his dream, in a way that will remind him not to be content with dying. (And all NH perspective aside, we've already seen that Sakura - and Kakashi for that matter - will not deter him from his path leading to Sasuke)

I'm sure it's because of my lack of English skills, but I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. When has Naruto given up on something?

And Naruto still wants to save Sasuke from revenge. There was a reason why Kishi didn't make Sasuke kill any of the rookie nines or Kakashi for that matter. Because, if Sasuke crosses that line then he is really irredeemable, wholly consumed by revenge. That is why Naruto wants Sasuke to take out all his hatred in the battle with himself, before he crosses the line. Or die with Sasuke and his chain of hatred. So Naruto isn't giving up on anything. His final battle with Sasuke is still to save him before it's too late.

Naruto is strong inside as well as out, but he is not unshakeable and neither is his spirit. He has grown so strong because he began with loneliness and then built on it with the support, respect, and love of others. It's not unreasonable that he require that support again from those who love him - which includes, and not low on the list, Hinata.

And Shikamaru, Choji, Ino, Shino, Kiba, Neji, Tenten, and Lee. Just because, Hinata is on that list along with others doesn't make NH happen. If being on the list of people that gives him support, respect, and love is enough to be with Naruto then I think a NaruHarem is in order with more yaoi than het.

2. He hates people who lie to themselves.
So he says, and so his actions indicate. It's a reflection of his Ninja Way, a code he incidentally shares with Hinata.

When has Hinata had a code that she hates people who lie to themselves?

It's worth remembering that he said this point to Sakura - and though it's debatable what she was lying about, we know for sure that she is far too confused and unresolved toward the world (and Sasuke, and Naruto) to be declaring love. No matter what she means and what she's truthful about, she's leading him astray with her words...deception, the antithesis of his Ninja Way. If he hates those who lie to themselves, it would conflict rather sharply with the love he has (or had? Or has temporarily pushed aside for important battles?) for Sakura. Hinata has proven genuine in her thoughts and words.

Yeah, he said that he hates people who lie to themselves. But the state of the fact is that he still doesn't hate Sakura. If he doesn't hate Sakura herself, I'd have to think that he hated that certain part of her. And if he hates a certain part of somebody and calls out on it, I'm sure that he himself doesn't have that certain part himself, which is to lie to their self. So, even if Hinata has genuine thoughts and words, it will still be lying to himself if he were to date her just because she doesn't have a certain flaw. Therefore NH is dead.

This point hinges on Naruto still loving Sakura, which until the next panel development can conceivably be considered up in the air due to Sakura's fumbling her Confession and Naruto's response.

I think it is the other way around. If something has changed there has to be a panel indicating that. The accused is guilty unless proven otherwise. There is no panel indicating that Naruto doesn't love Sakura anymore, and Sakura's actions towards him doesn't act as proof of him changing his feelings. Just like Sasuke trying to kill Sakura, doesn't act as a proof of Sakura changing her feelings for Sasuke. Therefore, I believe it's natural to think that Naruto still loves her.

Edited by narunarunaru, 23 February 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Dalton.T.R]

[Phantom_999]

Nice but when NaruSaku becomes canon.I want you to get your chap stick ready so you can kiss my ass right in the crack...Oh and I have a temper to ,so watch your ass!

I have quite the temper too. Lets try to be reasonable and not utter threats. No need to antagonize opposing pairings they are welcome here.

Now If NH was supposed to happen Kishimoto has a lot of work to do, as in actually developing their relationship, and to do that he needs to extend the manga. NS has shown romantic development through out the story thus far. Now if NH fans want to aoppose this I would like to see how you disprove said moments as romantic.

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 February 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

OK, I tried my best to listen to this discussion but after 8 minutes, I gave up. (I apologize, since I like to listen carefully to conversations before stating my opinion). Let me see some of the comments on this video (for one guy because I seem to have a hard time understanding one guy and the other just sounds like speaking with the bass in high). I probably won't talk about this right now, but I'll leave some of the notes I wrote while listening to this conversation.

I'll elaborate my opinion on each one later. What do you guys think about these comments?

-NaruHina just like… feels right… like I don’t know what it is…

-Suddenly with Naruto and Sakura getting together just like doesn’t hit right with me.

-NaruSaku = logical sense; NaruHina = emotional sense

-Why would you put so much focus on a side character (speaking about the Hinata vs. Neji fight)

-Kushina said to find someone like her because she thought Naruto would be like Minato.

-If you follow it objectively, it will be NaruSaku, but if you look behind that, I get NaruHina.

-The evidence for NaruSaku is so obvious is like its right there in front of you… while with NaruHina you have to find evidence… like the evidence is hidden.

[CloudMountainJuror]

-NaruHina just like… feels right… like I don’t know what it is…

-Suddenly with Naruto and Sakura getting together just like doesn’t hit right with me.

-NaruSaku = logical sense; NaruHina = emotional sense

-Why would you put so much focus on a side character (speaking about the Hinata vs. Neji fight)

-Kushina said to find someone like her because she thought Naruto would be like Minato.

-If you follow it objectively, it will be NaruSaku, but if you look behind that, I get NaruHina.

-The evidence for NaruSaku is so obvious is like its right there in front of you… while with NaruHina you have to find evidence… like the evidence is hidden.

- Feels right. Lovely reasoning. Proves their point so well, doesn't it?

- Because they won't suddenly get together. They still have some feelings on both sides to resolve. If Kishi handles it well, them getting together will not be sudden.

- NaruSaku = logical sense and attachment on both sides of the relationship; NaruHina = no logical sense and attachment on one side of the relationship. Emotional sense? Please. That's totally a personal opinion that can't be proven by anything in the manga. Logic, however, is logic. Universal. Backed up by the manga 100%.

- This is arguably their worst "point" yet. Why put so much focus on Lee? Why put so much focus on Neji? Those two are also side characters and have both matured much more than Hinata, and have more depth. They've been much more focused on than Hinata; does that mean that Naruto will get with one of them?

- ...And?

- Behind it? By looking behind it, do you mean making a mountain out of an anthill? Exaggerating every moment that Naruto has had with Hinata to seem like it's something more important that it really is?

- ...Exactly. The evidence is hard to find for NaruHina because there is none.

[Turson]

Now If NH was supposed to happen Kishimoto has a lot of work to do, as in actually developing their relationship, and to do that he needs to extend the manga.

Not really. NH fans would be happy either way, and most readers of Naruto dont give a sh** about pairings, so it would be no tragedy for them too. Sad, but true.

[T XD]

actually, the talking in this video can be felt by any shipper who ships a certain pairing that goes with his instincts of what he likes which is NH and what he is just merely hoping for, with different feelings he has and wanting to express these feelings into proper opinions in a certain way so he is just a regular fan of NH, i mean he didn't give anything new or something to really have to talk about.

Edited by T XD, 24 February 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I'd go with logic any day.

Agreed. Logic is the safest bet.

[Phantom_999]

Not really. NH fans would be happy either way, and most readers of Naruto dont give a sh** about pairings, so it would be no tragedy for them too. Sad, but true.

I'm not talking about what NH fans want. I'm talking about a reasonable way for NH to happen with out making it seem like a random 180 choice out of the blue.

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 February 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Fenris]

Wait, whys this thread hopping with new mangaka editors being NH/SS fans (a few pages earlier) and whatnot? Tell me what happened

2. He hates people who lies to themselves.
If this can be said for himself, then NaruHina is dead as it can be

Do tell do tell more

[Shadow Wolf]

- Feels right. Lovely reasoning. Proves their point so well, doesn't it?

- Because they won't suddenly get together. They still have some feelings on both sides to resolve. If Kishi handles it well, them getting together will not be sudden.

- NaruSaku = logical sense and attachment on both sides of the relationship; NaruHina = no logical sense and attachment on one side of the relationship. Emotional sense? Please. That's totally a personal opinion that can't be proven by anything in the manga. Logic, however, is logic. Universal. Backed up by the manga 100%.

- This is arguably their worst "point" yet. Why put so much focus on Lee? Why put so much focus on Neji? Those two are also side characters and have both matured much more than Hinata, and have more depth. They've been much more focused on than Hinata; does that mean that Naruto will get with one of them?

- ...And?

- Behind it? By looking behind it, do you mean making a mountain out of an anthill? Exaggerating every moment that Naruto has had with Hinata to seem like it's something more important that it really is?

- ...Exactly. The evidence is hard to find for NaruHina because there is none.

-Yep, to think that was one of his first statements... it quickly made me lose credibility on the debate.

-Agreed and to me, this was just another weak argument.

-Agreed with you and want to add one more detail: what is the meaning of "emotional sense" on this one? A one sided crush?

-He probably said this because of the two times Hinata has been focused (this one and her confession to Naruto). However, I could easily say that many, many characters have had two or more "moments" in the story so far.

-I think he said this because Kushina spoke about finding a girl like her when he was a baby, but basically, this changes nothing. Even if Naruto cultivated some of his mother's characteristics, this would not affect the opinion on Kushina about finding someone like her. If not, she would have told him to find a shy girl (and that did not happen).

-Completely agree with you here. Nothing left to say.

-To me, this isn't so different as to the obsessive type of people who want to find a hidden meaning to simple stuff. Nope, you can't go against logic.

[Fenris]

-Yep, to think that was one of his first statements... it quickly made me lose credibility on the debate.

-Agreed and to me, this was just another weak argument.

-Agreed with you and want to add one more detail: what is the meaning of "emotional sense" on this one? A one sided crush?

-He probably said this because of the two times Hinata has been focused (this one and her confession to Naruto). However, I could easily say that many, many characters have had two or more "moments" in the story so far.

-I think he said this because Kushina spoke about finding a girl like her when he was a baby, but basically, this changes nothing. Even if Naruto cultivated some of his mother's characteristics, this would not affect the opinion on Kushina about finding someone like her. If not, she would have told him to find a shy girl (and that did not happen).

-Completely agree with you here. Nothing left to say.

-To me, this isn't so different as to the obsessive type of people who want to find a hidden meaning to simple stuff. Nope, you can't go against logic.

Can you explain to me whats going on here? I'm a bit... lost.
What did this debate stem from?

[CloudMountainJuror]

Can you explain to me whats going on here? I'm a bit... lost.
What did this debate stem from?

A post on the last page by Shadow Wolf from a linked YT video. He posted lines of what they said, and I replied to them in debating fashion.

[Rocket]

Can you explain to me whats going on here? I'm a bit... lost.
What did this debate stem from?

What zac said.

Here are the comments:

-NaruHina just like… feels right… like I don’t know what it is…

-Suddenly with Naruto and Sakura getting together just like doesn’t hit right with me.

-NaruSaku = logical sense; NaruHina = emotional sense

-Why would you put so much focus on a side character (speaking about the Hinata vs. Neji fight)

-Kushina said to find someone like her because she thought Naruto would be like Minato.

-If you follow it objectively, it will be NaruSaku, but if you look behind that, I get NaruHina.

-The evidence for NaruSaku is so obvious is like its right there in front of you… while with NaruHina you have to find evidence… like the evidence is hidden.

[Fenris]

OK, I tried my best to listen to this discussion but after 8 minutes, I gave up. (I apologize, since I like to listen carefully to conversations before stating my opinion). Let me see some of the comments on this video (for one guy because I seem to have a hard time understanding one guy and the other just sounds like speaking with the bass in high). I probably won't talk about this right now, but I'll leave some of the notes I wrote while listening to this conversation.

I'll elaborate my opinion on each one later. What do you guys think about these comments?

-NaruHina just like… feels right… like I don’t know what it is…

-Suddenly with Naruto and Sakura getting together just like doesn’t hit right with me.

-NaruSaku = logical sense; NaruHina = emotional sense

-Why would you put so much focus on a side character (speaking about the Hinata vs. Neji fight)

-Kushina said to find someone like her because she thought Naruto would be like Minato.

-If you follow it objectively, it will be NaruSaku, but if you look behind that, I get NaruHina.

-The evidence for NaruSaku is so obvious is like its right there in front of you… while with NaruHina you have to find evidence… like the evidence is hidden.

Yes, because I suppose him focusing so much on Sasori vs Sakura makes them lovers, too, right?

Or just not even there and scruffed up out of the atmosphere by fans who want there to be some live action to it when there hasn't been any for the whole entire manga.



Wanted to try my hand out at replying to this.

[Rocket]

Honestly, I don't understand how NaruHina = emotional sense. What the hell?