4869 replies to this topic

[Wulf]

The way I see it, is like....

Naruto thinks that Sakura still likes Sasuke right? Well, I guess after so much rejection in part 1, he doesn't want the person he holding dear to reject him. So he's not making a move. (Althought it is clearly untrue Sakura still loves Sasuke. Besides, it'll ruin her character.)

Sakura is worried, that if she hooks up with Naruto, it'll give him more things to worry about. Sakura wants Naruto to be happy, and nto to be depressed to get both Sasuke, while also take care of her.

It is all a big misunderstanding.....

[Daidoji_Tangen]

I'm still trying to read the Thread, so this may have come up before. If so, I'm sorry.

Anyways, a common arguement against NaruSaku is that Sakura cares about Sasuke in a romantic sense. Where?

Do not accept this or allow this argument into the debate. There is no proof of Sakura "loving" Sasuke in a romantic sense is Part II. The burden of proof is on those who want to use this "fact" against us to prove it true. Do not try to prove she doesn't. It's impossible. Proving a negative in a debate like this often is. So, it's up to the other side to prove it true. If they can't prove it true, then you have the full right to simply brush this arguement aside saying, "there's no proof."

If they still can't get it through their heads on who the burden of proof is on. Use this example:

I can say Shino and Tenten are a hardcore couple in Part II. There is no proof to counter this. So, am I right until someone can find undeniable evidence that Shino isn't tapping Tenten? Or is it up to me prove that they are in fact a couple? If they try to claim it's different, point out it isn't. You're not saying Shino and Tenten are getting it on, but pointing out how anyone can make up anything if the burden of proof falls on those who oppose a theory. There are no excemptions. This of course works best if you don't do the same thing.

Some people will try to give proof. Here's how to point out it's not really proof of romance.

"Proof": She loved him in Part I.

Counter: We're talking about Part II. You have over 100 chapters. Even if Sasuke hasn't been in it alot, the theme of saving him has. You should have plenty of time to get some sort of small evidence showing she kept those feelings after 2 and 1/2 years.

Counter 2 (EDIT): Reread Chapter 236, page 13. When Sakura tells Naruto it is alright, she is doing two things.

1. She is absolving Naruto of his Promise of a Lifetime (which he refuses).

2. She is accepting the fact that she lost Sasuke. That is of course a debateable point, but it does give a working theory of where exactly Sakura gave up those feelings for him. Of course Naruto does convince her otherwise, but after that page SasuSaku is non-existant. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are seen only in the Team 7 respect after that (which I personally think is because Naruto is the one who convinced her that he not gone forever, saving him became part of the Team 7 bond the three share).

Again, this is not fact, but a working theory of when she moved on. Don't try to pass it on as fact. But as a theory of when she could have moved on (helped by the fact that she is not shown with romantic feelings of him afterwards).

Honestly, I just thought of this, so if anyone uses it, please let me know how it goes (counter arguements also).

"Proof": She looked at him.

Counter: Was she supposed to look at the ground? Besides, how does that imply romance? The time? Much more time was spent with Naruto and Sasuke looking at each other. Are they even more likely? We're not argueing that she doesn't have feelings at all for Sasuke. Just not romantic.

EDIT: Also point out that she was thinking of her promise to Naruto when she attacked him. Not about how much she wants him back.

"Proof": She cried over a picture of him.

Counter: She cried over a picture of Team 7. There was nothing to single Sasuke out. She cried, and a teardrop fell. Kishimoto could have it fall on Sasuke to symoblize her missing him. Instead the teardrop was used to switch over to Naruto. This actually shows a connection to Naruto. This is of course NOT a NaruSaku moment. But a Team 7 moment that shows Naruto and Sakura missing the other part of their team.

If people say you're making to big of a deal about the teardrop falling on Sasuke, point out that's an example. Thing is Kishimoto could have done something, anything, to single out Sasuke but didn't. Feel free to draw connections to the good-bye scene which shows what made Sakura happy was Team 7 (those her thoughts, none of Sasuke alone) rather than Sasuke (though she did give him credit).

Also, do not try to make a NaruSaku moment outside of the Team 7 contxt. You can only hurt yourself (at least against an intelligent debater).

"Proof": She got turned on by Sasuke in Kohanamaru's Sexy Jutsu.

Counter: Physical attraction does not imply love. Otherwise she "loves" Sai also. And Naruto loves Kohanamaru's first attempt. And the Third and Jiraya love a female version of Naruto. Really, if they're argueing this, you have them on the ropes.

EDIT: For extra fun, point out how this is really a NaruSaku scene since it shows how in sync Naruto and Sakura are. Kohanamaru even refers to them as birds of a feather (abiet he's probaly referring to himself too). Turning a scene where Sakura gets turned on by Sasuke into a NaruSaku scene (with better reasoning) will annoy SasuSaku supporters to no end. For NaruHina debaters, this is also evidence that Sakura can be equally pervy as Naruto. While not too important now considering their age, this would matter later when sex does come up. Sakura and Naruto both have a pervy side rivally the other's (even if Sakura is more discreet about hers). Hinata pretty much has her fans fantasies of the shy girl being wild in the sack.

Extra Counter: This a counter against the "she still loves him" arguement that's not against any "proof" that they provide. But can be made against it in general. On the Grass Bridge, Sakura never said anything against Kabuto and Orochimaru when they claimed Sasuke for themselves (though Naruto did). She did however yell at Kabuto for hurting/insulting Naruto's feelings. This of course isn't alot of proof of NaruSaku over SasuSaku, but ask the obvious question when pointing it out. If Sakura still loved Sasuke romantically and had no problem defending Naruto's feelings, wouldn't she yell at them for that? Not absolute proof against her still loving him, but again the burden of proof is not on us.

Bonus: If you are debating a NaruHina fan who is not a SasuSaku fan on this, ask him/her why they are debating. One of three things will happen:

1. They will ignore it. Keep asking.

2. They will realize they just got caught up in the debate and drop this point since they don't care about SasuSaku. Or if they are clever, they'll see you're trying to get them to do number three and drop the point pretending to to be caught up in the debate.

3. They will (accidently) admit that SasuSaku happening is really the only way that NaruHina will.

I think that's all of it. I'll post again if I can think of anything more. Please feel free to add to this argument.

DISCLAIMER (EDIT): The burden of proof arguements is for when you're on the defensive side of the "Sakura still loves Sasuke" argument. When you're on the offensive (that is you say "Sakura's feelings have changed" first), the burden of proof is on you. Though many of my counters can be altered to use as proof of changed feelings. Also, deafdrum below has some good points when you're on the offensive (likewise, his/her arguements can be altered to use as counter proof).

Also, it's best not to say "Sakura's feelings have changed" when they say she still "loves" Sasuke. This could easily lead to the burden of proof to be shifted on you. Just tell them to prove it.

Then after they've exhausted all of their points, that's when you want to go on the offensive.

[BroKen-PaSt]

Well i cant add to it but your counters to their so called proof was very well done

[shisui2006]

I'm still trying to read the Thread, so this may have come up before. If so, I'm sorry.

Anyways, a common arguement against NaruSaku is that Sakura cares about Sasuke in a romantic sense. Where?

Do not accept this or allow this argument into the debate. There is no proof of Sakura "loving" Sasuke in a romantic sense is Part II. The burden of proof is on those who want to use this "fact" against us to prove it true. Do not try to prove she doesn't. It's impossible. Proving a negative in a debate like this often is. So, it's up to the other side to prove it true. If they can't prove it true, then you have the full right to simply brush this arguement aside saying, "there's no proof."

If they still can't get it through their heads on who the burden of proof is on. Use this example:

I can say Shino and Tenten are a hardcore couple in Part II. There is no proof to counter this. So, am I right until someone can find undeniable evidence that Shino isn't tapping Tenten? Or is it up to me prove that they are in fact a couple? If they try to claim it's different, point out it isn't. You're not saying Shino and Tenten are getting it on, but pointing out how anyone can make up anything if the burden of proof falls on those who oppose a theory. There are no excemptions. This of course works best if you don't do the same thing.

Some people will try to give proof. Here's how to point out it's not really proof of romance.

"Proof": She loved him in Part I.

Counter: We're talking about Part II. You have over 100 chapters. Even if Sasuke hasn't been in it alot, the theme of saving him has. You should have plenty of time to get some sort of small evidence showing she kept those feelings after 2 and 1/2 years.

"Proof": She looked at him.

Counter: Was she supposed to look at the ground? Besides, how does that imply romance? The time? Much more time was spent with Naruto and Sasuke looking at each other. Are they even more likely? We're not argueing that she doesn't have feelings at all for Sasuke. Just not romantic.

EDIT: Also point out that she was thinking of her promise to Naruto when she attacked him. Not about how much she wants him back.

"Proof": She cried over a picture of him.

Counter: She cried over a picture of Team 7. There was nothing to single Sasuke out. She cried, and a teardrop fell. Kishimoto could have it fall on Sasuke to symoblize her missing him. Instead the teardrop was used to switch over to Naruto. This actually shows a connection to Naruto. This is of course NOT a NaruSaku moment. But a Team 7 moment that shows Naruto and Sakura missing the other part of their team.

If people say you're making to big of a deal about the teardrop falling on Sasuke, point out that's an example. Thing is Kishimoto could have done something, anything, to single out Sasuke but didn't. Feel free to draw connections to the good-bye scene which shows what made Sakura happy was Team 7 (those her thoughts, none of Sasuke alone) rather than Sasuke (though she did give him credit).

Also, do not try to make a NaruSaku moment outside of the Team 7 contxt. You can only hurt yourself (at least against an intelligent debater).

"Proof": She got turned on by Sasuke in Kohanamaru's Sexy Jutsu.

Counter: Physical attraction does not imply love. Otherwise she "loves" Sai also. And Naruto loves Kohanamaru's first attempt. And the Third and Jiraya love a female version of Naruto. Really, if they're argueing this, you have them on the ropes.

Extra Counter: This a counter against the "she still loves him" arguement that's not against any "proof" that they provide. But can be made against it in general. On the Grass Bridge, Sakura never said anything against Kabuto and Orochimaru when they claimed Sasuke for themselves (though Naruto did). She did however yell at Kabuto for hurting/insulting Naruto's feelings. This of course isn't alot of proof of NaruSaku over SasuSaku, but ask the obvious question when pointing it out. If Sakura still loved Sasuke romantically and had no problem defending Naruto's feelings, wouldn't she yell at them for that? Not absolute proof against her still loving him, but again the burden of proof is not on us.

Bonus: If you are debating a NaruHina fan who is not a SasuSaku fan on this, ask him/her why they are debating. One of three things will happen:

1. They will ignore it. Keep asking.

2. They will realize they just got caught up in the debate and drop this point since they don't care about SasuSaku. Or if they are clever, they'll see you're trying to get them to do number three and drop the point pretending to to be caught up in the debate.

3. They will (accidently) admit that SasuSaku happening is really the only way that NaruHina will.

I think that's all of it. I'll post again if I can think of anything more. Please feel free to add to this argument.

Wow, that's an excellent post. I've seen you debating on the TV.com forums, you're a really skilled debator.

[MagusKyros]

Phoenixblood is a SasuSaku fan. Her analysis of certain scenes are blown way out of proportion. It's like she thinks there is some sort of hidden message in them that is something different than what the scene and setting are portraying.

Her arguments on bonds is also laughable as well. She never takes the position of the character into consideration when she does that.

[Daidoji_Tangen]

Wow, that's an excellent post. I've seen you debating on the TV.com forums, you're a really skilled debator.

Thanks. That's where I like to hang out since you get to know people better in a smaller community, and the moderater doesn't let people get away with things that turned me off the larger Naruto forums (like telling people who don't like a certain pairing they can alll ****ing die).

I added a little extra fun arguement about the Kohanamaru henge scene. Great way to annoy SasuSaku fans.

[shisui2006]

Thanks. That's where I like to hang out since you get to know people better in a smaller community, and the moderater doesn't let people get away with things that turned me off the larger Naruto forums (like telling people who don't like a certain pairing they can alll ****ing die).

I added a little extra fun arguement about the Kohanamaru henge scene. Great way to annoy SasuSaku fans.

Your welcome. Yeah, I haven't seen much flaming there, although I have seen some pretty heated debates.

The last point you brought up in your previous post: I've debated NaruHina fans who have expressed a dislike or supposed apathy for SasuSaku, yet they end up defending it so feverishly. I always wondered why is that? I actually did what you advised to do in the past, and the person I was debating ended up saying in a roundabout way about the tie NaruHina has to SasuSaku. I've met some who have explicitly stated so, and those who claim the two are mutually exclusive yet still end up defending it.

[deafdrum]

Alright, first post! . First of all, I'll say that I do support NaruSaku (obviously, or else I wouldn't be here). I think it has some good development going, and it seems to fit the manga quite nicely. However, I also support well balanced arguments. In order to effectively support an argument, one must have a thorough understanding of all counterarguments.

That being said...

Anyways, a common arguement against NaruSaku is that Sakura cares about Sasuke in a romantic sense. Where?

Do not accept this or allow this argument into the debate. There is no proof of Sakura "loving" Sasuke in a romantic sense is Part II. The burden of proof is on those who want to use this "fact" against us to prove it true. Do not try to prove she doesn't. It's impossible. Proving a negative in a debate like this often is. So, it's up to the other side to prove it true. If they can't prove it true, then you have the full right to simply brush this arguement aside saying, "there's no proof."

If they still can't get it through their heads on who the burden of proof is on. Use this example:

I can say Shino and Tenten are a hardcore couple in Part II. There is no proof to counter this. So, am I right until someone can find undeniable evidence that Shino isn't tapping Tenten? Or is it up to me prove that they are in fact a couple? If they try to claim it's different, point out it isn't. You're not saying Shino and Tenten are getting it on, but pointing out how anyone can make up anything if the burden of proof falls on those who oppose a theory. There are no excemptions. This of course works best if you don't do the same thing.

Some people will try to give proof. Here's how to point out it's not really proof of romance.

"Proof": She loved him in Part I.

Counter: We're talking about Part II. You have over 100 chapters. Even if Sasuke hasn't been in it alot, the theme of saving him has. You should have plenty of time to get some sort of small evidence showing she kept those feelings after 2 and 1/2 years.

Although I agree that SasuSaku development has not been significantly present in Part II (I'll get to that later), I would hesitate to use a burden of proof argument. Part I and Part II cannot be taken as independent of each other. Part II is the continuation of the story started in Part I, and as such, there has to be consistency in characterizations. The best analogy I can think of is in physics. Newton's 1st law states that an object will maintain its status, either in motion or at rest, unless acted upon by an outside force.

Therefore, I believe the burden of proof actually lies with those who claim that Sakura's feelings have changed. She confessed her love to Sasuke near the end of Part I, and until sufficent evidence is given (an "outside force"), we have to assume that these feelings have remained the same, and that she is still in love with Sasuke.

But has there been any evidence so far? Possibly. We see Sakura attempt to fight Sasuke in chapter 308, something that she might have hesitated to do if she still felt the same way about him in Part I. Also, recall chapter 286, when Sakura hits Sai for insulting Sasuke. Obviously, she is, in a sense, protecting Sasuke's honor, as Naruto would have done, since she prevented him from hitting Sai himself. But later in 288, Sai insults Sasuke again, and Naruto gets angry. Instead of hitting Sai though, Naruto states that he will try to cooperate with Sai, because he is helping them in retrieving Sasuke. In 289, Sakura tells Sai that at any other time, she would have hit Sai again for insulting Sasuke, but she didn't because of Naruto. Essentially, Sakura gives up on defending Sasuke's honor for the sake of Naruto. True, she is still thinking about Sasuke's well-being, since she agrees that they would have a better chance of retrieving Sasuke with Sai on their team, but she was inspired by Naruto's words and followed his example.

In summary, I think there have been many opportunities where Sakura could have shown that she held the same feelings for Sasuke that she did in Part I, but so far, it doesn't seem like she's taken them. Does this prove she doesn't have those same feelings? I don't think so, but it certainly doesn't lead one to believe that she does either.

[Daidoji_Tangen]

Alright, first post! . First of all, I'll say that I do support NaruSaku (obviously, or else I wouldn't be here). I think it has some good development going, and it seems to fit the manga quite nicely. However, I also support well balanced arguments. In order to effectively support an argument, one must have a thorough understanding of all counterarguments.

That being said...
Although I agree that SasuSaku development has not been significantly present in Part II (I'll get to that later), I would hesitate to use a burden of proof argument. Part I and Part II cannot be taken as independent of each other. Part II is the continuation of the story started in Part I, and as such, there has to be consistency in characterizations. The best analogy I can think of is in physics. Newton's 1st law states that an object will maintain its status, either in motion or at rest, unless acted upon by an outside force.

Therefore, I believe the burden of proof actually lies with those who claim that Sakura's feelings have changed. She confessed her love to Sasuke near the end of Part I, and until sufficent evidence is given (an "outside force"), we have to assume that these feelings have remained the same, and that she is still in love with Sasuke.

But has there been any evidence so far? Possibly. We see Sakura attempt to fight Sasuke in chapter 308, something that she might have hesitated to do if she still felt the same way about him in Part I. Also, recall chapter 286, when Sakura hits Sai for insulting Sasuke. Obviously, she is, in a sense, protecting Sasuke's honor, as Naruto would have done, since she prevented him from hitting Sai himself. But later in 288, Sai insults Sasuke again, and Naruto gets angry. Instead of hitting Sai though, Naruto states that he will try to cooperate with Sai, because he is helping them in retrieving Sasuke. In 289, Sakura tells Sai that at any other time, she would have hit Sai again for insulting Sasuke, but she didn't because of Naruto. Essentially, Sakura gives up on defending Sasuke's honor for the sake of Naruto. True, she is still thinking about Sasuke's well-being, since she agrees that they would have a better chance of retrieving Sasuke with Sai on their team, but she was inspired by Naruto's words and followed his example.

In summary, I think there have been many opportunities where Sakura could have shown that she held the same feelings for Sasuke that she did in Part I, but so far, it doesn't seem like she's taken them. Does this prove she doesn't have those same feelings? I don't think so, but it certainly doesn't lead one to believe that she does either.

1. There is quite a bit of difference in the consistncy of Newton's Laws of Physics and the feelings of a 12 year old girl.

Feelings change rapidly when you're at that age (and yes, sometimes for no reason, but the whole abandoning the village, her, almost murdering Naruto, and the simple passage of time is enough "forces: to effect her feelings for him). There is no reason to believe that her feelings are the same as they were 2 1/2 years just because Part I is part of the story. I mean, I could give this arguement credit if we were still at the beginning of Part II. But over 100 chapters should be more than enough for them to show that she still has those feelings.

Sakura has grown and matured more than most characters post-timeskip. It's silly to suggest that we must accept her feelings haven't changed even though she has without any proof (and considering one of the main themes is her trying to save the person she "loves" there is plenty of opportunities).

2. Shifting the burden of proof on someone who wants to prove a negative in this type of debate is a dirty trick. When you're shifting it yourself, you're just asking to lose to an intelligent debater.

There is absolutely nothing wrong wanting proof of continued feelings when over a hundred chapters and 2 1/2 years have passed. Especially when the other seperates the stories into two different parts (allowing the characters to develop somewhat off screen).

3. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here:

a) Sakura knows she failed by appealing to emotion before. Now she will appeal to strength. This has no bearing whether she loves him or not. ((Actually, if I was a SasuSakuer I could talk about how this shows just how much she loves him by the fact that she was willing to hurt him (then use Naruto as an example of someone doing this when you called me insane), but I can't really do that much without feeling like I need a shower.))

B) Sakura stopped from hitting Sai because of Naruto's maturity. She did not choose him over Sasuke. Actually, you're helping SauSaku since you're saying she decided to fight with someone she didn't like to save Sasuke.

I feel dirty now. Maybe I will take that shower.

4. You're right. And the burden of proof falls on those who are trying to prove a positive. Since proving a negative is often impossible. By allowing them to claim that she still loves him without proof, you're giving them a free ride on something you're saying is up for debate.

I, of course, am not argueing that she never loved him romantically, or that I'm 100% sure those feelings are gone in Part II. I'm just saying before this arguement is allowed in a debate, people should demand proof that's not 100 chapters and 2 1/2 years old.

5. I'm going to edit my orginal post to point out just where Sakura let's Sasuke go in Part I (Chapter 236, page 13).

[deafdrum]

1. There is quite a bit of difference in the consistncy of Newton's Laws of Physics and the feelings of a 12 year old girl.

Ok, so maybe that was kind of a lousy analogy. It was the only thing I could think of at the time.

Feelings change rapidly when you're at that age (and yes, sometimes for no reason, but the whole abandoning the village, her, almost murdering Naruto, and the simple passage of time is enough "forces: to effect her feelings for him). There is no reason to believe that her feelings are the same as they were 2 1/2 years just because Part I is part of the story. I mean, I could give this arguement credit if we were still at the beginning of Part II. But over 100 chapters should be more than enough for them to show that she still has those feelings.

There is absolutely nothing wrong wanting proof of continued feelings when over a hundred chapters and 2 1/2 years have passed. Especially when the other seperates the stories into two different parts (allowing the characters to develop somewhat off screen).

You bring up good points that could serve as evidence that Sakura's feelings have changed. But her feelings toward Sasuke were such a big part of her character in part I (although it made her admittedly shallow), that it would seem like a big deal if it were to change. It would be like Naruto coming back after the timeskip and not being hyperactive, or Shikamaru not being lazy. If she truly did love him in part I (and I suppose even that could be debatable), then I would think it would take more than the mere passage of time to change that.

Sakura has grown and matured more than most characters post-timeskip. It's silly to suggest that we must accept her feelings haven't changed even though she has without any proof (and considering one of the main themes is her trying to save the person she "loves" there is plenty of opportunities).

I agree with this, but I still don't think burden of proof would work to argue this point. It does seem silly, but logically, we have to assume consistency, even if it isn't practical, or we don't expect it. This is a work of literature, no doubt. If an author wants to change the personality traits of a character, he has to thoroughly show the thoughts and feeling to this end in order to get the point across to the reader. Otherwise, we have to refer back to the original traits the character possessed.

Of course, Kishimoto doesn't have to show definitive proof for the change right away, or all at once. Most authors want to maintain a certain level of suspense in order to keep their readers interested. That's why I think there's plenty of hints of a change, and they will gradually add up as the story progresses.

2. Shifting the burden of proof on someone who wants to prove a negative in this type of debate is a dirty trick. When you're shifting it yourself, you're just asking to lose to an intelligent debater.

4. You're right. And the burden of proof falls on those who are trying to prove a positive. Since proving a negative is often impossible. By allowing them to claim that she still loves him without proof, you're giving them a free ride on something you're saying is up for debate.

I might not understand the definition of "negative" and "positive" in this context, but I was under the impression that we (the NaruSaku fans) are on the side of the positive. I'm looking at it this way:

positive: yes, Sakura's feelings toward Sasuke have changed in part II.

negative: no, Sakura's feelings toward Sasuke have not changed in part II.

If I am interpreting you correctly, you're looking at it this way

positive: yes Sakura's feelings have remained the same in part II.

negative: no, Sakura's feelings have not remained the same in part II.

I feel that "change" is more of a tangible concept than "lack of change." We can measure change. Lack of change (staying the same) is simply a change "value" of zero. Thus, we need to show evidence, not lack of evidence, making our task possible rather than impossible, as you stated it would have been. If my perspective is skewed in some way, feel free to correct me. Again, I'm not too familiar with argument terminology.

The reason I am saying that Sakura's feelings are up for debate is that I believe there is evidence that they have changed; evidence that others might disregard because of a conflict of interpretation. So in this sense, as long as we have an angle for argument through what we consider evidence (which I think we do, or at least will at some point), then we have satisfied the burden of proof on our end, and the other side no longer has a "free ride." The only thing left to do is to argue the legitimacy of that supposed "proof."

3. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here:

a) Sakura knows she failed by appealing to emotion before. Now she will appeal to strength. This has no bearing whether she loves him or not. ((Actually, if I was a SasuSakuer I could talk about how this shows just how much she loves him by the fact that she was willing to hurt him (then use Naruto as an example of someone doing this when you called me insane), but I can't really do that much without feeling like I need a shower.))

My response on the side of NaruSaku for this argument would be that her motivation has changed from part I (when she appealed to emotion) to part II (when she appealed to strength). In part I, her motivation was to be with Sasuke and make him happy, whether that meant keeping him in Konoha or going with him to help with his revenge. In part II, she no longer seeks to help him, since she states that she is going to "stop" him. Her only motivation is to bring him back to Konoha, away from the bad influence of Orochimaru. I think appealing to one's happiness is a sign of romantic feelings, as we see Naruto doing the same thing with Sakura through the promise of a lifetime. Now, Sakura's motivations are the same as Naruto's, which shows that she cares for Sasuke on the same level as Naruto: as a close friend.

I know what you mean about feeling dirty . I have trouble coming up with pro-SasuSaku arguments when I'm trying to look at things in a balanced way. The whole time, I'm thinking to myself, "heck, I don't agree with this."

B) Sakura stopped from hitting Sai because of Naruto's maturity. She did not choose him over Sasuke. Actually, you're helping SauSaku since you're saying she decided to fight with someone she didn't like to save Sasuke.

Yes, she did stop because of Naruto's maturity, and she didn't act on the immediate opportunity (like she did before) to defend Sasuke. So in a sense, she chooses to act on Naruto's behalf rather than on Sasuke's.

[Daidoji_Tangen]

1. 2 1/2 years is enough time for feelings to change. Love is like a flower. If it doesn't get watered, it dies.

Also, someone's feelings towards another person (romantic, friendship, hatred, etc.) are not a personality trait.

Hinata would still be Hinata if she didn't admire Naruto.

Naruto would still be Naruto if he didn't love Sakura or was friends with Sasuke.

Part I Sakura would still be Part I Sakura if she didn't "love" Sasuke.

Though all their actions would be different, their basic personalities would be the same.

The only one who would be argueably different if his bond with another person is different would be Sasuke and his hatred for his brother. But personally, I think Sasuke would still be Sasuke even if he didn't hate his brother because the Uchia massacre would still have screwed up his mind and made him withdrawn.

So, by changing the bonds between the characters, Kishimoto wouldn't be altering their personalities.

And yes, this is a work of literature, but Kishimoto has been keeping people's bonds and feelings towards each realistic. To cement a character's feelings after 100 chapters and 2 1/2 years as the same as before just for constitency seems ridiculous to me. Especially when the bond between those two is one of the major themes (the Team 7 bond) of the series, and Kishimoto took the time that a minor character like Hinata still had her crush from before (which was more shallow than Sakura's feelings for Sasuke at the end of Part I).

Remember. I am not saying that the lack of proof Sakura still having feelings for Sasuke is 100% proof that she has none for him. I'm saying we should not allow "Sakura still loves Sasuke" to be an unchallenged arguement.

4. OK. I think you might be misunderstanding what I meant. Sorry. I tend to do that alot.

Positive: Sakura still loves Sasuke.

Negative: Sakura doesn't still loves Sasuke.

Please, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying use the burden of proof arguement if you're on the offensive, saying Sakura's feelings have changed. If that's the case, you're right. The burden of proof is on you.

I'm saying when the other side starts argueing Sakura loves Sasuke, the burden of proof is on them. I would 95% of the time when NaruHinaers and SasuSakuers argue this, they provide no proof. And at least half of the time, when they respond they try to shift the burden of proof on those who are saying it changed. My post is to tell people why the other side needs to prove their arguement, rather then us trying to prove 100% that it's wrong. Also, it gives tips on how to counter the "proof" they give.

I will edit my post with a disclaimer that stats the burden of proof arguement is for when you're on the defensive side.

3. Yeah, let's just drop this part here.

[deafdrum]

1. 2 1/2 years is enough time for feelings to change. Love is like a flower. If it doesn't get watered, it dies.

In the case of a two-sided love, I would agree, but Sakura's love is clearly one-sided. Realistically, her love for Sasuke should have died before part I even ended, due to the rejection she continually received from him. However, Sakura doesn't give up, and continues to pursue him even in spite of his obvious lack of romantic feelings for her. Using your analogy, it would be hard to find when exactly their relationship was ever "watered." Was it just from Sakura looking at Sasuke? No, that would be silly, as you've already argued. Was it when he complimented her? Well, if that were the case, then Sakura should be with Naruto by now.

Since Sakura has shown that her love for Sasuke will survive even in the face of obstacles, it might turn out that the passage of time is simply another one of those obstacles. Since Naruto was gone as well over the timeskip, the same argument could be applied to him. If we weren't shown already that his feelings for Sakura haven't changed (which I believe we were), could it be argued that he no longer loves Sakura?

If anything, Sasuke not being in Konoha for 2.5 years would probably help maintain her feelings, since he wouldn't be there to discourage her every time she asked him on a date, or otherwise showed her affections.

You might be right, of course. I have no problem agreeing with you, but I'm trying to remain as unbiased as I can. It's hard, though

Also, someone's feelings towards another person (romantic, friendship, hatred, etc.) are not a personality trait.

Hinata would still be Hinata if she didn't admire Naruto.

Naruto would still be Naruto if he didn't love Sakura or was friends with Sasuke.

Part I Sakura would still be Part I Sakura if she didn't "love" Sasuke.

Though all their actions would be different, their basic personalities would be the same.

The only one who would be argueably different if his bond with another person is different would be Sasuke and his hatred for his brother. But personally, I think Sasuke would still be Sasuke even if he didn't hate his brother because the Uchia massacre would still have screwed up his mind and made him withdrawn.

So, by changing the bonds between the characters, Kishimoto wouldn't be altering their personalities.

Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts. Feelings may not actually be a personality trait, but they reflect personality traits (or maybe character traits would be a better term). Naruto's team 7 bond, as well as the bonds he's made with other characters, show him to be the type to make friends easily, and fits into the context of his ambition to become Hokage, both for acknowledgement and the desire to protect his precious people. Sakura's love for Sasuke also shows her desire for acknowledgement, according to chapter 3, and the fact that she shares this trait with Naruto makes him feel closer to her.

A change in feelings would result in a change of actions, as would a change in personality. Since they both have the same effect in literature, they can both be considered as elements that define a character.

And yes, this is a work of literature, but Kishimoto has been keeping people's bonds and feelings towards each realistic. To cement a character's feelings after 100 chapters and 2 1/2 years as the same as before just for constitency seems ridiculous to me. Especially when the bond between those two is one of the major themes (the Team 7 bond) of the series, and Kishimoto took the time that a minor character like Hinata still had her crush from before (which was more shallow than Sakura's feelings for Sasuke at the end of Part I).

I'll refer back to my point about suspense. Since it is a major theme, Kishimoto will likely develop it gradually, rather than all at once. It's what keeps each side debating, which I admit, I find quite entertaining. Naruto's relationship with Hinata is not as major of a theme, so tossing it in at the end of a chapter wouldn't be a problem.

Remember. I am not saying that the lack of proof Sakura still having feelings for Sasuke is 100% proof that she has none for him. I'm saying we should not allow "Sakura still loves Sasuke" to be an unchallenged arguement.

I agree, and even if we needed to supply burden of proof, I believe we still have enough support to challenge.

4. OK. I think you might be misunderstanding what I meant. Sorry. I tend to do that alot.

Positive: Sakura still loves Sasuke.

Negative: Sakura doesn't still loves Sasuke.

Please, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying use the burden of proof arguement if you're on the offensive, saying Sakura's feelings have changed. If that's the case, you're right. The burden of proof is on you.

I'm saying when the other side starts argueing Sakura loves Sasuke, the burden of proof is on them. I would 95% of the time when NaruHinaers and SasuSakuers argue this, they provide no proof. And at least half of the time, when they respond they try to shift the burden of proof on those who are saying it changed. My post is to tell people why the other side needs to prove their arguement, rather then us trying to prove 100% that it's wrong. Also, it gives tips on how to counter the "proof" they give.

But can we truly know which side is offensive and which side is defensive? The pairing debate as a whole has been going on for ages, in countless forums and threads and who knows where else. Every time someone brings up an argument, it's always in response to a previous one. Who really started the debate? We could point all the way back to when chapter 3 first came out, and in that case, both sides had grounds for arguments as to why their pairing would work, so both had equal opportunity to start the debate. Since the roles in an argument for either side will likely remain forever ambiguous, it would be confusing to use it as criteria for burden of proof.

[Radon]

Well Im new to the whole NaruSaku debating thing because I just finished watching the episodes up to the 18th Shippuden Episode.

But Im pretty confused at SasuSaku's and their "evidence".
Sakura liked Sasuke, no argument there.
But in all honesty he lost all chance of ever being with someone good when he left Sakura in that scene in Konoha.

I dont know how many people would ever be with someone who has caused harm to you, and your friends. Sasuke almost killed Naruto in their fight at the Valley of the End.

Sakura obviously has developed some deep care for Naruto, so why would she dismiss Sasuke half killing him? I dont know a single girl who'd do that.

And during the first shippuden episode, when they meet Sasuke at whatever the hell place that was, sure Sakura said, "...Sasuke..." but I dont see how that portrays any feeling of love. And when hes talking to Naruto after Naruto asked why he didnt kill him that day he says, "Its not that I couldnt kill you... I left you alive just because I wanted to."

Call me crazy but there doesnt seem to be much "love" in this guys heart for anyone, let alone a girl he always thought was useless.
He also says, "Oh you wanted to be hokage didnt you?" Then he says, "This time... because I feel like it, I will end your life."

No chance what-so-ever he could ever have any emotion resembling love anymore. None. If there was still any chance for him after he left Sakura (which I think there may have been just s tiny strand of "love" left) its completely demolished at this point. All "evidence" they can muster before this doesnt matter. Sasuke isnt the same person so that "evidence" shouldnt have anything to do with him.

Sasuke wont be with Sakura, theres absolutly no doubt in my mind about that. Whether or not Naruto ends up with her I guess we'll have to wait and see. But I hope so.

When Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke met up in that scene (which is in chapters 309-ish in the Manga) it would be a betray of character for Sakura to not be surprised and shocked to see him. This is someone that she 'loved' someone that was close to both her and Naruto and to have her just show up and be like 'yah, whatever' would betray her character way to much.

The one thing that keeps pushing me towards NaruSaku is as said above, the evidence. We know she had feelings for Sasuke in part one but, so far, with the exception of when they are about to do the bell test and when she is looking at the picture in her bedroom, there have been no overly negative responses to Sasuke's absence, and both those instances can be explained as friendship also.

I am not willing to push for either one because at this point in time theres little evidences of either in a romantic context.

When Sasuke left Sakura asked him why he hated her, she understood that she was nowhere close to winning his heart, and the "You really are annoying." she got from him almost proves that he feels nothing of the sort... can there be something there, theres a possibility, but then theres a possibility for everything so who can say?

[Daidoji_Tangen]

In the case of a two-sided love, I would agree, but Sakura's love is clearly one-sided. Realistically, her love for Sasuke should have died before part I even ended, due to the rejection she continually received from him. However, Sakura doesn't give up, and continues to pursue him even in spite of his obvious lack of romantic feelings for her. Using your analogy, it would be hard to find when exactly their relationship was ever "watered." Was it just from Sakura looking at Sasuke? No, that would be silly, as you've already argued. Was it when he complimented her? Well, if that were the case, then Sakura should be with Naruto by now.

Since Sakura has shown that her love for Sasuke will survive even in the face of obstacles, it might turn out that the passage of time is simply another one of those obstacles. Since Naruto was gone as well over the timeskip, the same argument could be applied to him. If we weren't shown already that his feelings for Sakura haven't changed (which I believe we were), could it be argued that he no longer loves Sakura?

The Sasuke/Sakura relationship did grow during their time together. Though it was mostly angst, with Sasuke doing nothing and Sakura taking care of him.

This was enough to keep the relationship going because it allowed Sakura to be there for him and feel a connection with him. Would it have lasted in the long run had Sasuke not ran away? Who knows. But at the time, it was enough.

And people claim Naruto no longer loves Sakura all the time. Of course, unlike the SasuSakuers, we have alot proof to the contrary. And I have no problem with the burden of proof being on us in this case.

Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts. Feelings may not actually be a personality trait, but they reflect personality traits (or maybe character traits would be a better term). Naruto's team 7 bond, as well as the bonds he's made with other characters, show him to be the type to make friends easily, and fits into the context of his ambition to become Hokage, both for acknowledgement and the desire to protect his precious people. Sakura's love for Sasuke also shows her desire for acknowledgement, according to chapter 3, and the fact that she shares this trait with Naruto makes him feel closer to her.

A change in feelings would result in a change of actions, as would a change in personality. Since they both have the same effect in literature, they can both be considered as elements that define a character.
I'll refer back to my point about suspense. Since it is a major theme, Kishimoto will likely develop it gradually, rather than all at once. It's what keeps each side debating, which I admit, I find quite entertaining. Naruto's relationship with Hinata is not as major of a theme, so tossing it in at the end of a chapter wouldn't be a problem.

Except there hasn't been any suspense on the SasuSaku front. There has been on the NaruSaku front, like when Yamtao is interuptted. There just has been nothing suspenseful about SasuSaku. It just has kinda fallen off the map after Sakura attempted to let Naruto out of his Promise of a Lifetime. Honestly, giving some sort of hint she still has feelings for Sasuke would rocket the suspense since we would have a NaruSakuSasu love triangle going on.

As for Hinata, he still has kinda kept up the suspense there, with her wanting to confess, but not yet able.

I agree, and even if we needed to supply burden of proof, I believe we still have enough support to challenge.

Agreed.

But can we truly know which side is offensive and which side is defensive? The pairing debate as a whole has been going on for ages, in countless forums and threads and who knows where else. Every time someone brings up an argument, it's always in response to a previous one. Who really started the debate? We could point all the way back to when chapter 3 first came out, and in that case, both sides had grounds for arguments as to why their pairing would work, so both had equal opportunity to start the debate. Since the roles in an argument for either side will likely remain forever ambiguous, it would be confusing to use it as criteria for burden of proof.

I usually consider the person on offense in the debate the one who brings up a certain point (of course both people can be on offense on a different subjects). It's up them to prove their arguement with evidence unless it's something that can be commonly taken as common sense or blantly stated (like the Fourth Hokage is dead). Maybe offense was bad terminalogy. Person who brought it up.

It's a dirty trick (which I have done in the past, though I've been trying to argue clean now) to bring up an arguement then tell the other side they have to prove it wrong without providing any evidence yourself. You're essentially saying it is fact unless it can be proven wrong.

And I do say we should show the other side where and how we can tell Sakura's feelings have changed (it only helps us). I just don't think we should let them say she still loves Sasuke as fact, and they should give evidence if they want to make that claim.

[deafdrum]

The Sasuke/Sakura relationship did grow during their time together. Though it was mostly angst, with Sasuke doing nothing and Sakura taking care of him.

This was enough to keep the relationship going because it allowed Sakura to be there for him and feel a connection with him. Would it have lasted in the long run had Sasuke not ran away? Who knows. But at the time, it was enough.

And people claim Naruto no longer loves Sakura all the time. Of course, unlike the SasuSakuers, we have alot proof to the contrary. And I have no problem with the burden of proof being on us in this case.
Except there hasn't been any suspense on the SasuSaku front. There has been on the NaruSaku front, like when Yamtao is interuptted. There just has been nothing suspenseful about SasuSaku. It just has kinda fallen off the map after Sakura attempted to let Naruto out of his Promise of a Lifetime. Honestly, giving some sort of hint she still has feelings for Sasuke would rocket the suspense since we would have a NaruSakuSasu love triangle going on.

As for Hinata, he still has kinda kept up the suspense there, with her wanting to confess, but not yet able.
Agreed.
I usually consider the person on offense in the debate the one who brings up a certain point (of course both people can be on offense on a different subjects). It's up them to prove their arguement with evidence unless it's something that can be commonly taken as common sense or blantly stated (like the Fourth Hokage is dead). Maybe offense was bad terminalogy. Person who brought it up.

It's a dirty trick (which I have done in the past, though I've been trying to argue clean now) to bring up an arguement then tell the other side they have to prove it wrong without providing any evidence yourself. You're essentially saying it is fact unless it can be proven wrong.

And I do say we should show the other side where and how we can tell Sakura's feelings have changed (it only helps us). I just don't think we should let them say she still loves Sasuke as fact, and they should give evidence if they want to make that claim.

I suppose I can sum everything up by saying that regardless of which side one is on, one must provide evidence to back up their claims. Looking back at your 1st post, I don't think burden of proof was actually much of an issue. One side brought up an argument supported by evidence, and the other side (you) responded with a counter-argument supported with counter-evidence.

argument: Sakura still loves Sasuke in part II.

evidence: she loved him in part I.

counter-argument: Sakura's feelings have changed and she no longer loves Sasuke in part II.

counter-evidence: passage of time, Sasuke's absence, etc.

What was done was a weak argument (but an argument nonetheless) with weak evidence was put up against a stronger counter-argument with stronger counter-evidence. Your example with Shino and Tenten made more sense as far as using burden of proof. Since there hasn't been any evidence that they are a couple, it would be impossible to form an argument, and burden of proof could be cited if it were stated as fact.

As far as the other arguments go, I don't think I can go much farther, because I agree with a lot of what you say, and I really don't know how SasuSaku fans would counter (not saying that they would, but I don't think like them ). It might just come down to conflict of interpretation. Perhaps there are SasuSaku fans out there who are feeling that there is gradual development or suspense in their pairing for some reason that us NaruSaku fans don't understand or agree with.

---

On another note (kind of), one argument I've been hearing a lot from SasuSaku and NaruHina fans alike is that NaruSaku development is pure comic relief and thus cannot be taken seriously and will not amount to anything in canon. They cite the times where Sakura has gotten mad at Naruto for asking her out on dates and/or Sakura hitting him. I have my own responses to this argument, but I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

[kawarimi]

Phoenixblood is a SasuSaku fan. Her analysis of certain scenes are blown way out of proportion. It's like she thinks there is some sort of hidden message in them that is something different than what the scene and setting are portraying.

Her arguments on bonds is also laughable as well. She never takes the position of the character into consideration when she does that.

That was a little random.

Anyway, I want to attempt to explain something that will hopefully improve your opinion of me, because I think my intentions and purposes of writing the essay have been lost or misunderstood. Granted, a good deal of that is probably due to writing being far from my forté, and it's hard to convey what's going on in my head sometimes, so I hope I can clear that up at least a little now.

Yes, I pushed the bounds of the normal content of pairing debates, went beyond what is the usual "direct evidence" and tried to piece together a more conceptual point of view of how various scenes could fit into one possible theme and big picture interpretation.

My purpose was to get people on all sides to think, to challenge everyone, including myself, to really try to look beyond just arguing "pairing moments" and to step back and try to put together the intents behind a string of progressive scenes, and then see how it pertains to the pairing scene. I did it to try to bring a fresh approach to the repetitive pairing scene, and was honestly interested in seeing what the NaruSaku side had to offer in return.

Instead, I have been repeatedly accused of trying to twist things around to suit my pairing, to ignore the obvious and "dig deep" for a more compatible meaning; I've had people tell me what my thought process was, what my purpose was, and misunderstanding my attempt to encourage discussion as a reason to say I've gone "too far", when that was partially the point. I don't think I'm "stretching" things, or "twisting" things, or trying to find some "hidden meaning". I just tried to pull together as much as I could on the meaning that came naturally and was on the surface for me. Honestly. That interpretation is what I came out with from reading the raw, not something I plotted or searched for with the hope of finding it. It is the natural understanding that came to me based on the topic and context of the conversation, and how it fits into Sakura's character development on the whole. If you see it differently, great! Explain to me how you see it, that's what I'm interested in reading. That's what I was hoping to get in return.

Anyway, this went on a lot longer than I meant to. But I hope I at least got across (this time) the reasoning and intention behind what I had written, and that I don't consider my interpretation as something concrete, but have yet to be convinced it is invalid, and cross my fingers that with future chapters I'll gain more confidence and find out that I really was right all along and gloat accordingly or cry if I'm wrong.

[Dash]

On another note (kind of), one argument I've been hearing a lot from SasuSaku and NaruHina fans alike is that NaruSaku development is pure comic relief and thus cannot be taken seriously and will not amount to anything in canon. They cite the times where Sakura has gotten mad at Naruto for asking her out on dates and/or Sakura hitting him. I have my own responses to this argument, but I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

"Pure" comic relief would be over-generalizing their relationship. Do some of their interactions involve comedy? Sure. But so do many NaruHina interactions, right? Hinata sees Naruto, Hinata faints, Naruto doesn't understand why, everyone laughs...I don't see many NaruHina fans worrying about the comic relief in those scenes as an argument against their pairing. Naruto and Sakura have had several serious moments that showed the development in their relationship in addition to the not-so-serious moments that supposedly "won't amount to anything". Despite the numerous and (sometimes) rabid fans concerned with pairings, however, Naruto is still a shounen, not a shoujo. Naruto is an action story with hints of romance; it's not a romance story with action. Though I'm sure some fans would enjoy it, Kishi isn't likely to spend pages and pages developing some deep and intricate romantic relationship between characters when the general target audience probably doesn't care that much (and the author himself says he isn't that good with romance). A couple panels here and there of Naruto asking Sakura on a date, for example, is quick, easy, and gets the point across while saving precious panel space for more important things. Sakura and Naruto's interactions mirror a lot of typical shounen pairings, especially the comedic elements and bits of violence from Sakura (I hate to generalize, though). That doesn't mean NaruSaku will happen, but it should show that the comedy in their relationship doesn't mean it won't happen either.

[Daidoji_Tangen]

I suppose I can sum everything up by saying that regardless of which side one is on, one must provide evidence to back up their claims. Looking back at your 1st post, I don't think burden of proof was actually much of an issue. One side brought up an argument supported by evidence, and the other side (you) responded with a counter-argument supported with counter-evidence.

argument: Sakura still loves Sasuke in part II.

evidence: she loved him in part I.

counter-argument: Sakura's feelings have changed and she no longer loves Sasuke in part II.

counter-evidence: passage of time, Sasuke's absence, etc.

What was done was a weak argument (but an argument nonetheless) with weak evidence was put up against a stronger counter-argument with stronger counter-evidence. Your example with Shino and Tenten made more sense as far as using burden of proof. Since there hasn't been any evidence that they are a couple, it would be impossible to form an argument, and burden of proof could be cited if it were stated as fact.

As far as the other arguments go, I don't think I can go much farther, because I agree with a lot of what you say, and I really don't know how SasuSaku fans would counter (not saying that they would, but I don't think like them ). It might just come down to conflict of interpretation. Perhaps there are SasuSaku fans out there who are feeling that there is gradual development or suspense in their pairing for some reason that us NaruSaku fans don't understand or agree with.

---

On another note (kind of), one argument I've been hearing a lot from SasuSaku and NaruHina fans alike is that NaruSaku development is pure comic relief and thus cannot be taken seriously and will not amount to anything in canon. They cite the times where Sakura has gotten mad at Naruto for asking her out on dates and/or Sakura hitting him. I have my own responses to this argument, but I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

1. OK. I think we're in agreement here. My burden of proof thing formed out the NaruHinaers and SasuSakuers habit of stating she still loves him and expecting us to take it as fact without challenge or except us to provee 100% beyond a shadow of doubt she still loves him or except it as fact by default). I think they should prove it if they want to claim it. Of course, I agree we should show evidence of her feelings have changed.

2. *bursts out laughing* NaruHinaers of all people say OUR pairing is mainly comic relief? *can't breathe, laughing to hard*

Seriously, alot of pairings have comic relief side to them. And Sakura's "gentle" moments with Naruto show real care and affection. Even if they are partly comic relief (which by no means they all are) like where Naruto starts talking about how good looking Sasuke is, they tend to show real connection between the two.

Sure, SasuSaku had no comic relief moments, but that doesn't make the relationship "deep." It really just means it was angst-based.

Finally, comic relief does not make the other factors invalid. Alot of the Akatsuki are comic relief. But they are still very powerful and evil. Just because they're the comic relief doesn't change that. So, even though alot of NaruSaku moments are comic relief, it doesn't change the underlying factors involved.

[Daidoji_Tangen]

I finally read every post in this Thread! Yay! Anyways, something interesting, that I read that really wasn't debated.

This long bit of reading was pointed out elsewhere to me, but it seemed like something newer to discuss (and I don't visit the SS vs. NS. forums often (if ever)

Here's the link: LINK

Here's the text:
I had translated the text based on the context of Sakura’s character flaw in how she measures her worth to those she cares about by what she can do for them, and how she didn’t realize even if she doesn’t do anything, just her caring does a lot. Which I think also makes more sense as a response to someone expressing feelings of uselessness than implying falling in love with that person as a remedy for the lack of confidence.

So what of Sakura now? In chapter 343, she is doing what she can to heal Naruto although medical ninjutsu can only do so much against that much damage. But Naruto is still happy: “Because it feels as if the both of us are getting closer to Sasuke."

When I first read the text, I thought this was a confirmation to Sakura of the message Yamato might have been trying to convey to her – that she is fulfilling her part of bringing Sasuke back, and that she might have gotten over her doubt and accepted this. And her shocked expression in the next panel as this information that was interrupted now, by Naruto, now laid before her in her inclusion of getting closer to Sasuke by Naruto as a step to overcoming her thoughts of usefulness.

But upon re-reading the scene, while I still believe her usefulness and contribution to be the subject in her mind, I’m not sure if she has accepted Naruto’s including her in the progress toward bringing their teammate back, but instead is only further feeling the effects of what she hasn’t been able to do from her perspective.

If it’s the former, then the parallel has been resolved on both counts; if it’s the latter, then perhaps this (as well as her also curious reaction with Shikamaru last chapter) as a lead into imminent resolution of her stumbling block as Naruto just surmounted his.
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What this means for Naruto and Sakura…and Sasuke

Throughout Part 2, despite Sakura’s growing respect and care for Naruto, I continued to view their relationship as strained because of these flaws mentioned above, and how each were too busy trying not to be a burden that it was hindering their relationship a little as they both sought to regain the teammate they lost – Naruto let the weight bear him down a destructive path, Sakura lied, neither really confided in the other but kept up a game face. And I believe it was because of their individual and group brokenness that also prevented their success in the first reunion with Sasuke, or at least not being emotionally and psychologically prepared for the encounter. They weren’t ready.

With the latest arc coming to a close, and the latest chapter providing resolve (for at Naruto and the same issue brought to mind with Sakura, if not resolved - but still trying to be of help where she can, even just feeding a bandaged Naruto) to the issues brought up before, in addition to cast doubt on just how far (not) gone Sasuke had been at their meeting. But now with hope (or imminent hope) from three directions, things seem to be moving onto the right path, leading to the restoration of Team 7.

While the interpretation I presented here isn’t anti-NaruSaku in itself, but more ‘not pro-NaruSaku’ (explicitly) for certain situations that had been perceived as such by a number of people. But what leads me to believe that while romance could be included in the subtext, I think it’s less likely the case because of a parallel set up between Naruto and Sakura prior to Part 2, one that really is the start of the parallel I have just demonstrated (actually, it probably goes back to the very beginning when Team 7 is formed into their 3-man group).

Not to bore you with another essay, though, I’ll just give the short version now (in reference to the validity of Sakura’s confession in chapter 181):

When Sasuke left, he met with both his teammates; to each he tried to leave quickly, and in the end gave a concession - for Naruto, not killing him; for Sakura, saying “Thank you”. Naruto and Sakura also each made a confession of what Sasuke means to them – for Naruto, it is brotherhood; for Sakura, it is romantic love.

This was the context of Sasuke’s relationships with Naruto and Sakura at the time of his departure – to neither of them could he reciprocate (not clear whether he would have had he not felt obligated to fulfill his revenge by such means). But while it should be fairly predictable that by/before the end, Sasuke will accept and proclaim Naruto as his brother; and if the parallel holds, he will likewise reciprocate Sakura’s feelings – fulfilling the potential that was set up for him with each of his two teammates. For those who believe Sasuke ever feeling anything romantic toward Sakura – well, while it may not be obvious in their interactions before he left, there was gradual acceptance of the way Sakura approached him, but again I’ll leave it at that to keep this from getting too long.

However, in terms of Sakura’s feelings toward Sasuke, with this parallel between Sakura and Naruto that we have now seen three times – if Naruto’s view and relation to Sasuke hasn’t changed and is still just as intense, why would Sakura’s be any different when she has also displayed intensity toward rescuing him in Part 2.

Furthermore, the way I see it, if Kishi is going to write a story about bonds, and about how Team 7 is going to succeed where their predecessors failed because they learned the lesson of bonds and soon enough to make the difference - then why would he not only let one of those bonds be weakened/need to change due to misunderstanding and not knowing the 'real' person or how she really feels, but to even go to the extent of writing a dramatic scene that is the springboard into Part 2, only to have those feelings change in nature at a crucial point in the characters’ journey through the story and development, as well as undermine the backdrop of Sakura’s half of trying to prevent Sasuke from leaving and gaining determination (with Naruto’s inspiration) to keep going after him. (How about that for a run-on sentence happy.gif) Why make Sakura variable in her feelings while Naruto remains constant instead of following through with how he had set it up in the first place as the context for in what way Sasuke means so much to them that they are so determined to get him back? To me, it just doesn't fit with how things have been set up and the story that is being told.

And if you actually followed my poorly constructed sentences in that last paragraph, kudos to you. laugh.gif
If I'm not mistaken, she's a member here too - in which case I apologize if I've stepped on your toes by posting this here (just seemed like an interesting essay)

1. Honestly, I think you might be totally right about Yamtao's general point. However, I still think the romantic connotations are obvious with the train of thought Yamtao was taking and the fact Kishimoto had Naruto interrupt. If there was no romantic connotation, there would be no reason to for Naruto to interrupt him. By having Naruto interupt, he sucessfully created a NaruSaku moment that we're still arguing about today (and I doubt it had that Kishimoto was planning on making a non-pairingish moment seem pairingish just to screw with everyone).

2. You're omitting the obvious hints Yamtao makes towards NaruSaku in 299. One of the reasons Yamtao gives to Naruto to stop using the Kyuubi is to protect Sakura. Now why does he need/want to protect Sakura?

He, during the bell test, was truely impressed with Sakura's skills as a ninja and acknowledges her strength there. So, she doesn't "need" protecting.

Could he have been talking about protecting Sakura like he wants to for all of his friends? No. If hurting Jiraya wasn't enough to stop him, why would the generic Kohana twelve bond stop him? Back during the Sannin Arc, it shows him seeking a father-type figure from him. This would only increase after 2 1/2 years of training. Jiraya is defintely closer to him than any non-Team 7 of the Kohana 12 by a large degree. So, Yamtao wasn't referring to Sakura as an example of all the people he wants to protect. No, she is special.

I will refer to Mizura's great essay where she points out that a male "protecting" a female is often an example of actions over words in manga and anime showing love. She even sites an example (Samurai X, I believe) where the male simply tells the female, "I will protect you," instead of telling her he loves her. This scene reminds me of that.

Yamtao was doing exactly what you're saying, but the obvious romantic connection between the two is there. Sure, it can be argued that he might have only saw it one sided, but taking into the larger context, I doubt it.

DISCLAIMER: I don't think Sakura is currently in love Naruto. Only that she is falling for him. Yamtao probaly sees this too (Hell, even Sai sees it) and decided to give it a little push (in an effort to do exactly what you're suggesting what he was wanting to do).

3. I pretty much agree with you. I do have a few problems with this, but not really enough to lengthen this already lengthy post.

4. I see this parallel a little strained. You're assuming they are paralleled at all. I don't see why because Sasuke didn't kill Naruto and will later almost defintely accept him as a brother, that SasuSaku will happen because he said thank you.

Also, I don't see why they are necessarily the same or will have the same ultimate results. Naruto succeeded in maintaining his bond (which is why Sasuke hasn't gone straight down into the darkness). Sakura failed (he was still more than willing to kill Naruto for power afterwards). So, the parallel could easily be that Naruto will maintain the brotherhood bond that he preserved back then, and Sakura will lose the romance bond that she failed to preserve.

Also, where do you get a third parallel? One is questionable (since as I point out above). One hasn't happened (if I'm following you correctly, the second is Sasuke coming back and being a "brother" of Naruto and lover of Sakura). As for the third, it's just carrying on this flawed thinking of parallels.

Sakura has to keep the same intense emotions for Sasuke in the same respect as she did back then just because Naruto does? That's kinda flawed.

Real life doesn't work like that. And from a literary stand point it doesn't work either. NARUTO is the main charcter. Not Sasuke. If anyone's bonds should matter, it's his. If there are parallels, we should be looking at them from his standpoint (which works somewhat since both Sasuke's and Sakura's go from hating him to him becoming one of their precious people). Of course, I prefer to look at the relationships individually, so I won't go too deeply into the parallels of Naruto's relationships.

Even looking at Team 7's bonds with Sasuke, there has been a big difference which makes any parallel suspect. The difference is that Naruto has been shown repeatedly and others have constantly commented about the connection with Sasuke being the same. There has been only deafing silence when referring to Sakura's for Sasuke.

Feelings and bonds constantly change. If they didn't Sakura would still hate Naruto, and Sasuke would still hate them both. Changing doesn't mean lessoning. I don't see Sakura just giving up Sasuke or abandoning him completely like in a bad NaruSaku fanfic just because her and Naruto get together. I would go into more detail, but my break ended 5 minutes ago (besides that's my main point anyways).

EDIT: Changing language per request.

[Chappy-chan!?]

:clap, clap: I agree with all that you said except for one thing: Just because a guy tells a female she will protect her doesn't mean it's a confession of love. Since I'm a Bleach junkie, I'll bring it up. The main character, Ichigo, has a name which means "one who protects." He has a hero complex wanting to protect everyone. And, when he implied to the main female, Rukia, that he was concerned over her safety. Another character, Renji, said that it was an insult. Rukia herself said: "I didn't come here to be protected by you!" Sakura doesn't seem to want to be the damsel in distress either, she's a shinobi too, after all. Though we know Naruto loves Sakura, the "I will protect you" may not mean love. I think, it just means to protect. Just my two cents. XD