1040 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

so james, now you acknowledge that kishi really make a plothole, eh?

Yes, more or less. Technically, I read from the writer's standpoint in how he wants the universe to set up. Some "plot holes" are really just how the universe was set up. Like, take example a Batman story where no one can figure out that Bruce Wayne is Batman despite some obvious signs that even an 8 year old can figure out. Eventually you get to the point where you say "Okay, so you tell me no one in this world can put two and two together about this? Okay, I will accept that." (Kevin Smith on one of his podcast brought this up with the Dark Knight Rises movie where how it is rather odd that how a 10-year-old kid figured out who Batman was just from a smile, but Commissioner Gordan and an entire police force couldn't figure it out at all.)

However, what is an even bigger plot hole is when the story itself literally breaks it's own rules for the sake of advancing a story.

 

 

 

In his defence, Sasuke never actually pledged his loyalty to Orochimaru or his ambitions. There's little information about the three years spent under his tutelage. Whether he participated in the experimentations or not is unknown, but I would suspect that he didn't if his criticism of Orochimaru's practices is in keeping with his actions. The worst he might have done besides affiliate himself with a highly wanted fugitive (affiliation isn't the same thing as collaboration) is take illegal drugs to stimulate the growth rate of his power. 

 

Sasuke didn't really have any allegiances to anyone at the time besides Hebi and himself. He was neutral with his own moral framework. He had a personal mission that existed independently of any political or military organisation. 

 

It doesn't work like that though. Whether he pledged loyalty or not, he aligned himself to Orochimaru. Whether for his own purpose or not, he helped Orochimaru with his plans. You don't see henchmen get off scott-free cause they say in court "Sure, I worked with him, but I never said I was loyal to him."

Hell, even with-holding information can be seen as "aiding a felon" regardless of your loyalty to them or not.

 

I feel you cant put Sasuke in the same boat as Obito. Sure Sasuke did some bad things but nothing as evil as Obito.
- Kills Itachi, at the time Itachi was a "bad" guy.
- Hunts bee. This one is bad but no one dies from it.
- Attacks gokage, raikage ends up losing one arm.
- Kills Danzo, I think he deserved it.
- Stabs Karin, almost kills Sakura and battles Kakashi.

So if you look at the things Sasuke has done, they arent all bad. I feel he can be redeemed. He is already doing it by fighting for the alliance.

I now see that his evilness has been severely exaggerated. He really hasnt done anything that bad. Sure there was that low point but thats over now. The only problem I ever had with him was how easily he changed/was manipulated(Itachi,Oro,Obito).

 

Except Itachi wasn't "killed" by Sasuke. Itachi was already dying and was practically a walking dead man any way. I could also say that Itachi, despite being very sick, was still able to overpower Sasuke and would probably have won if he was at 100%.

Of course, there are other people he has killed such as "Danzo" which could be argued he killed himself, but I mean these handwaving of Sasuke's track record due to technicalities is disturbing sometimes. I could apply a lot of this to Obito as well. He officially only killed Neji. Everyone else that has supposedly "died" by Obito's hand were either criminals themselves such as the Hidden Mist ninja, were killed by other means (Minato and Kushina were both killed by the 9-tails and the Demon Seal); the fodder-nin were absorbed by the tree, killed by Zetsu clones made by Madara, Edo-Tensei brought back by Kabuto, or  by other means not directly by Obito.

We also have Sasuke who killed the Samurai, but apparently red shirts don't count. So by this logic, we can discount all red shirt deaths in the war indirectly killed by Obito's stuff.

Speaking of which, you bring up that Sasuke was manipulated by Orochimaru and others. Technically, wasn't Obito also manipulated by Madara or are we not going to count this either? It was Madara who saved him and brought him back to life, it was Madara who promised him a better future with empty promises of salvation, it was Madara who got the Gedo Mazo, Zetsu clones, and was planning the whole war from the beginning.

So technically, Obito isn't that evil either. He was just manipulated.

With that being said, so if Sasuke is not that evil and most of stuff can be handwaved easily....then what is there to be redeemed from? You have to do evil things in order to be redeemed from them. If you can just handwave all evil deeds with technicalities then what is there to redeem?

This is why I hate the story of Sasuke's redemption and why Obito's redemption AT LEAST has him be redeemed from something.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 January 2014 - 04:36 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

However, what is an even bigger plot hole is when the story itself literally breaks it's own rules for the sake of advancing a story.

It doesn't work like that though. Whether he pledged loyalty or not, he aligned himself to Orochimaru. Whether for his own purpose or not, he helped Orochimaru with his plans. You don't see henchmen get off scott-free cause they say in court "Sure, I worked with him, but I never said I was loyal to him."

Hell, even with-holding information can be seen as "aiding a felon" regardless of your loyalty to them or not.
 
 
Except Itachi wasn't "killed" by Sasuke. Itachi was already dying and was practically a walking dead man any way. I could also say that Itachi, despite being very sick, was still able to overpower Sasuke and would probably have won if he was at 100%.

Of course, there are other people he has killed such as "Danzo" which could be argued he killed himself, but I mean these handwaving of Sasuke's track record due to technicalities is disturbing sometimes. I could apply a lot of this to Obito as well. He officially only killed Neji. Everyone else that has supposedly "died" by Obito's hand were either criminals themselves such as the Hidden Mist ninja, were killed by other means (Minato and Kushina were both killed by the 9-tails and the Demon Seal); the fodder-nin were absorbed by the tree, killed by Zetsu clones made by Madara, Edo-Tensei brought back by Kabuto, or  by other means not directly by Obito.

We also have Sasuke who killed the Samurai, but apparently red shirts don't count. So by this logic, we can discount all red shirt deaths in the war indirectly killed by Obito's stuff.

Speaking of which, you bring up that Sasuke was manipulated by Orochimaru and others. Technically, wasn't Obito also manipulated by Madara or are we not going to count this either? It was Madara who saved him and brought him back to life, it was Madara who promised him a better future with empty promises of salvation, it was Madara who got the Gedo Mazo, Zetsu clones, and was planning the whole war from the beginning.

So technically, Obito isn't that evil either. He was just manipulated.

With that being said, so if Sasuke is not that evil and most of stuff can be handwaved easily....then what is there to be redeemed from? You have to do evil things in order to be redeemed from them. If you can just handwave all evil deeds with technicalities then what is there to redeem?

This is why I hate the story of Sasuke's redemption and why Obito's redemption AT LEAST has him be redeemed from something.

You have the point.
But what i say and my fellows on brazil chan who are also fans on this.
We discussed it over and over but the fact is that all the bad things that have been done by Sasuke the author (Kishimoto) credited all this to "hatred" and single emotion who's now guilty of all the wrongdoings of the world and Sasuke being a "prisoner of hatred" like Naruto described on the summit.
He doesnt view him as a criminal even during the begining for some reason it was avoided the confrontation, when Sai said that Sasuke was a traitor and a criminal, Sakura punched Sai and Naruto was all sad.
And then the whole Nakama thing, but what was said by Sai was the truth, it didnt justify why Sakura punched Sai, it seemed liek he was wrong despite acting like jerk and even Tsunade that was kage said that she didnt labelled Sasuke as a Nukenin because of Naruto and Sasuke which is ridiculous.
In a way the hokage uphold a common law of the village in favour of a friend.

And being honest i dont even know what the hell Orochimaru is doing on this story.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2014 - 04:46 PM.

[sushi.]

According to Hashi Madara can be TNJ-ed.. I really hope that's not gonna happen.

I know, but I am not that worried because I see it as a dead issue.

 

Madara is a zombie from an old generation. Naruto has not tried to TNJ him and probably never will. I don't think he'll beat a dead horse when the new Madara(sasukeee) is right in front of him, who may surpass Madara this way.

Edited by sushi., 27 January 2014 - 08:31 PM.

[Atheck]

It doesn't work like that though. Whether he pledged loyalty or not, he aligned himself to Orochimaru. Whether for his own purpose or not, he helped Orochimaru with his plans. You don't see henchmen get off scott-free cause they say in court "Sure, I worked with him, but I never said I was loyal to him."

Hell, even with-holding information can be seen as "aiding a felon" regardless of your loyalty to them or not.

 

How did he help Orochimaru's plans? By following his training regiment and inadvertently strengthening himself in preparation for a body swap? That's not exactly the same as taking part in sinister experiments or embracing a malevolent ideology like his underlings did. I'll grant that his comment to Naruto about consensually offering up his body to Orochimaru was a possibility that could have strengthened the forces of one of Konoha's most infamous ninja, but that never came to be. 

 

This doesn't vindicate Sasuke from the crime of being associated with a known terrorist/mad scientist/kidnapper. Realistically he should be tried for these crimes. I just don't think that his time with Orochimaru is as criminally bad as directly assisting Akatsuki with capturing a tailed beast to further their own aims. 

[Kster95]

Except Itachi wasn't "killed" by Sasuke. Itachi was already dying and was practically a walking dead man any way. I could also say that Itachi, despite being very sick, was still able to overpower Sasuke and would probably have won if he was at 100%.

Of course, there are other people he has killed such as "Danzo" which could be argued he killed himself, but I mean these handwaving of Sasuke's track record due to technicalities is disturbing sometimes. I could apply a lot of this to Obito as well. He officially only killed Neji. Everyone else that has supposedly "died" by Obito's hand were either criminals themselves such as the Hidden Mist ninja, were killed by other means (Minato and Kushina were both killed by the 9-tails and the Demon Seal); the fodder-nin were absorbed by the tree, killed by Zetsu clones made by Madara, Edo-Tensei brought back by Kabuto, or  by other means not directly by Obito.

We also have Sasuke who killed the Samurai, but apparently red shirts don't count. So by this logic, we can discount all red shirt deaths in the war indirectly killed by Obito's stuff.

Speaking of which, you bring up that Sasuke was manipulated by Orochimaru and others. Technically, wasn't Obito also manipulated by Madara or are we not going to count this either? It was Madara who saved him and brought him back to life, it was Madara who promised him a better future with empty promises of salvation, it was Madara who got the Gedo Mazo, Zetsu clones, and was planning the whole war from the beginning.

So technically, Obito isn't that evil either. He was just manipulated.

With that being said, so if Sasuke is not that evil and most of stuff can be handwaved easily....then what is there to be redeemed from? You have to do evil things in order to be redeemed from them. If you can just handwave all evil deeds with technicalities then what is there to redeem?

This is why I hate the story of Sasuke's redemption and why Obito's redemption AT LEAST has him be redeemed from something.

 

Woah woah, I never once said Sasuke's actions are redeemable because he was being manipulated, manipulation or not you decide to do things. 

 

- Doesnt matter, completely missing the point that that battle lead to Itachi's death.

 

-  Where exactly am I hand waving Sasuke's actions, and it is a completely different point Obito summoned the nine tails in the village, that lead to Minato and Kushina's deaths, he summoned the tree that killed all those people, so your comparisons dont make sense.  

 

- Gave fair warning in battle, I am not saying this isn't evil but he warned them. They werent his true targets, had they not gotten involved they would be alive. 

 

- Sasuke actions didnt lead to thousands of deaths, Obito's did so there is no point in comparing the evilness of the 2. 

 

And I am no way shape of form saying he gets a free pass but he has done evil things but hasnt lead to numeros deaths. All I am saying is Sasuke's evilness has been exaggerated, if you truly look at his actions he hasnt done things which cannot be redeemable. 

Edited by Kster95, 27 January 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, I'm staying out of this one. Off now. Take care.

[shisui]

Zetsu won't betray Madara, he's too fodder for that, but Obito might do something. In the DBZ manga, Cell went down because of Gohan, but Vegeta distracted him at one point. It could be something like this.

Sasuke being manipulated should not be an excuse. If he's to be redeemed, he must make ammends about everything he has done. It's true that he isn't at fault for millions of deaths like Obito though. He's at a much better position to be pardoned.

Edited by GoogleIsMyFriend, 27 January 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

How did he help Orochimaru's plans? By following his training regiment and inadvertently strengthening himself in preparation for a body swap? That's not exactly the same as taking part in sinister experiments or embracing a malevolent ideology like his underlings did. I'll grant that his comment to Naruto about consensually offering up his body to Orochimaru was a possibility that could have strengthened the forces of one of Konoha's most infamous ninja, but that never came to be. 
 
This doesn't vindicate Sasuke from the crime of being associated with a known terrorist/mad scientist/kidnapper. Realistically he should be tried for these crimes. I just don't think that his time with Orochimaru is as criminally bad as directly assisting Akatsuki with capturing a tailed beast to further their own aims.

Sasuke carried out own Orochimaru's mission he wasnt just training, he also saw Orochimaru experiments and at some point helped him like the prison's incident where he was tasked to track down and bring back the people who were escaping from Orochimaru's prison.
Keep in mind that the ninjas that were with Orochimaru all of them were labelled as nukenin and Sasuke wasnt because of Naruto and Sakura.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 January 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Atheck]

Sasuke carried out own Orochimaru's mission he wasnt just training, he also saw Orochimaru experiments and at some point helped him like the prison's incident where he was tasked to track down and bring back the people who were escaping from Orochimaru's prison.
Keep in mind that the ninjas that were with Orochimaru all of them were labelled as nukenin and Sasuke wasnt because of Naruto and Sakura.

 

Do you have a specific reference from the manga or Databook to support this? It sounds like a detail that would be added into the anime to prolong a plot point in the story. 

[James S Cassidy]

 

Do you have a specific reference from the manga or Databook to support this? It sounds like a detail that would be added into the anime to prolong a plot point in the story. 

 

Do you have specific reference saying he DIDN'T do any of that or helped with any of Orochimaru's stuff? You want to so bad for everyone to prove something and yet can't even disprove it. You said so yourself we have a two year blank, who said he didn't do stuff during that time?

As for you, Kster95, I am not going to respond because you literally just backpedaled when I caught you in a lie. I also like how you backpedal your overall statement because I bring up the fact that because he isn't evil, why give him a redemption?

Here is how I see it.
A. You admit that Sasuke did some bad stuff, that he is evil, and needs to redeemed all the while not just handwaving all wrong doings he did do by some minor technicalities.

B. You can accept that he didn't really do anything due to these technicalities, also applying the same logic to Obito, and saying that his redemption is really just crap because he is not evil period. He is a Chaotic Neutral.
or

C. Sasuke is a terrible written character.

This is what makes me mad at people that hate Obito so much. Not so much that they hate him, but the fact that they think how pathetic Obito is because he did all this for Rin, however think Sasuke is so great even though he basically did all this for....his brother. Two heavily obsessed characters over the feelings of one person. Hell, Madara is the same way over his brother.

At the end of the day, whether you hate or love Obito, you have to admit at least Obito had the guts to even try to bring what he wanted back. He was never distracted by anything to achieve his goal and was almost successful. Unlike Sasuke who seems to find every excuse not to do something despite threatening at the top of his lungs. He never even tried to do anything he set out to do and he has been nothing, but a huge failure. I don't feel sorry for him because he did it to himself. Out of all the major battles Sasuke has ever fought, he only really won ONE. The rest they either committed suicide or was dying anyway or tricked him.

He is also a character of predictable outcomes. Some say he is so random, coughMiiamicough, but really this "randomness" is starting to become predictable and is tiring. Obito at least had some reserve and knew when the time to strike was. Sasuke acts like a spoiled brat because he is when given all his jutsu for free, he throws tantrums when doesn't get his way, and he hasn't even begun his revenge plot because a dead man told him a bedtime story.  He isn't even a rival anymore because he never wanted to be and the competition part of said rivalry went away in part 1.

And this is a guy who has everything. A great bloodline, he was popular, all the women loved him, and some men wanted to be him. Compared to Naruto who worked his butt off to achieve his greatness and it is well-deserved. He is a cog in the machine that is the plot and spins when the plot needs him to spin. Really, I have read a lot of manga and Vegeta makes a better rival than Sasuke does. Hell, Hinata has more courage than Sasuke because at least she had conviction and the will to confess her love. I actually hold Hinata higher on the scale than I do Sasuke.
 

I could keep going on and on with reasons for not liking Sasuke or how I think Kishi is just treating him like a "third wheel," but really at times feels I am the only on that feels this way.

Obito's redemption is alot more satisfying because he actually did stuff to be redeemed from. He actually went to the dark side and commited bad things in name of something that wasn't even his own and that's why I want to see him redeemed.

 

You have the point.
But what i say and my fellows on brazil chan who are also fans on this.
We discussed it over and over but the fact is that all the bad things that have been done by Sasuke the author (Kishimoto) credited all this to "hatred" and single emotion who's now guilty of all the wrongdoings of the world and Sasuke being a "prisoner of hatred" like Naruto described on the summit.
He doesnt view him as a criminal even during the begining for some reason it was avoided the confrontation, when Sai said that Sasuke was a traitor and a criminal, Sakura punched Sai and Naruto was all sad.
And then the whole Nakama thing, but what was said by Sai was the truth, it didnt justify why Sakura punched Sai, it seemed liek he was wrong despite acting like jerk and even Tsunade that was kage said that she didnt labelled Sasuke as a Nukenin because of Naruto and Sasuke which is ridiculous.
In a way the hokage uphold a common law of the village in favour of a friend.

And being honest i dont even know what the hell Orochimaru is doing on this story.

 

Few things

 

How is Sasuke a product of hatred? Really think about this. Naruto has a bigger excuse for this because he actually was hated. Sasuke was well loved by the people of Konoha and was seen as very popular. So how is he a product of it? Of course, you could mean that he has given into his hatred of people because of Itachi and the position they put him in, but wouldn't Obito be pardoned because of how he was shaped by hatred as well? Technically, he is a product of hatred as well, but apparently this only applies to Sasuke.

We have the problem that if Naruto, as Hokage, pardons his best friend it shows a form of favoritism and Sasuke may NEVER learn his lesson if he can just get away with it every time. How would other people feel when they go to Naruto as Hokage and say to him "Well, you let Sasuke go, why can't my best friend go? He is a product of a harsh environment and it is not his fault." You'll have criminals using this excuse every day and trying to get off being punished because "they grew up in a harsh environment." However, what about all the people that also grew up in that same environment and yet retained being good people?

 

Actually, funny enough, Itachi deserves the biggest pardon. If people actually knew what he did in the name of the greater good, then maybe he is better suited to be pardoned.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 January 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[Akashi]

Okay, so I had this crazy thought: if I recall, it's been said sharingan originated from byakugan, right? So could Hyuugas obtain rinnengan?

[Atheck]

Do you have specific reference saying he DIDN'T do any of that or helped with any of Orochimaru's stuff? You want to so bad for everyone to prove something and yet can't even disprove it. You said so yourself we have a two year blank, who said he didn't do stuff during that time?

 

Orochimaru himself admitted that Sasuke was a disgrace since he hadn't succumbed to the cajolery about needing to be ruthless and cold-hearted towards everyone he faced. He wasn't indoctrinated like Kabuto and Kimimaro were. Certainly that aversion towards unnecessary violence didn't just spawn overnight. Even at his worst at the Valley of the End (with the Curse Seal's corruptive properties in full effect), Sasuke still gave Naruto the opportunity to leave and later on he tried to justify his actions of fighting Naruto when he mentioned that "he couldn't help it if he was going to get in the way" (a paraphrase). This doesn't excuse Sasuke's actions in the slightest though since he was acting as a deserter at the time.  

 

Sasuke also went to the trouble of denouncing Orochimaru for his practices when he went rouge. Having disapproval about someone's actions like that would be hypocritical if he engaged in that behaviour himself and Sasuke was of a relatively stable mindset back then; obsessive, but not murderous or cruel. 

Edited by Atheck, 27 January 2014 - 09:16 PM.

[Hiraishin]

He doesnt view him as a criminal even during the begining for some reason it was avoided the confrontation, when Sai said that Sasuke was a traitor and a criminal, Sakura punched Sai and Naruto was all sad.
And then the whole Nakama thing, but what was said by Sai was the truth, it didnt justify why Sakura punched Sai, it seemed liek he was wrong despite acting like jerk and even Tsunade that was kage said that she didnt labelled Sasuke as a Nukenin because of Naruto and Sasuke which is ridiculous.

Yeah, Sakura punching Sai for that always bothered me cause... Well, he wasn't wrong lol.

[Kster95]

As for you, Kster95, I am not going to respond because you literally just backpedaled when I caught you in a lie. I also like how you backpedal your overall statement because I bring up the fact that because he isn't evil, why give him a redemption?

 

Please tell me what lie you caught me in? What I see is you missing the point of my statement being that Sasuke is more redeemable than Obito. So really next time you jump into a conversation and call me a liar, look at the whole conversation. I also like how you said your wouldnt response but responded but not to the points I brought up. 

Edited by Kster95, 27 January 2014 - 09:16 PM.

[shisui]

Do you have a specific reference from the manga or Databook to support this? It sounds like a detail that would be added into the anime to prolong a plot point in the story.

There's that spread where Sasuke is over 100 fodders or so. He did things for him, even if he didn't kill them.

Besides, even if he didn't go on missions, he's at least guilty of standing by for three years and not doing anything. I suppose one could say he wasn't strong enough to do something about it though. However, that would mean that the things he did for him were also due to not being able to say no.
 

Even at his worst at the Valley of the End (with the Curse Seal's corruptive properties in full effect), Sasuke still gave Naruto the opportunity to leave and later on he tried to justify his actions of fighting Naruto when he mentioned that "he couldn't help it if he was going to get in the way" (a paraphrase).

Sasuke did this:

http://i7.mangapanda...uto-1567371.jpg

It's stated outright Naruto only managed to survive this because he moved at the last second. It's also stated outright (twice) that Sasuke only let Naruto alone at the end because he didn't want to be Itachi's puppet, not because he was secretely "good" inside. It's also important to remember Sasuke attempted to kill Naruto at the Hospital fight, stated by Kakashi himself.

Kishimoto still passed on the message that Team 7 attempting to get Sasuke was a honourable goal and that Sasuke himself could be saved from darkness after VotE. There are only two options. Either people realise that Sasuke's evil acts are supposed to be wand waved or you don't cut him any slack.

Okay, so I had this crazy thought: if I recall, it's been said sharingan originated from byakugan, right? So could Hyuugas obtain rinnengan?

I've seen this as an argument for NH.

Edited by GoogleIsMyFriend, 27 January 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[sushi.]

Okay, so I had this crazy thought: if I recall, it's been said sharingan originated from byakugan, right? So could Hyuugas obtain rinnengan?

Rinnegan for Hinata ftw !!

 

Look, somebody has already foreseen it

tbh I didn't expect this to be an actual thread on NB

Edited by sushi., 27 January 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Shadow1275]

Okay, so I had this crazy thought: if I recall, it's been said sharingan originated from byakugan, right? So could Hyuugas obtain rinnengan?

I'm still trying to figure out where the hell lion fists came from so it's possible

[Atheck]

There's that spread where Sasuke is over 100 fodders or so. He did things for him, even if he didn't kill them.

By Orochimaru's admission, there wasn't a single drop of blood drawn from any of them. And judging by their attire, they were all shinobi from Orochimaru's illegitimate village of Otogakure.

Obviously they were used as canon fodder to assess Sasuke's combat prowess, probably under Orochimaru's orders. The ironic part to this is that Sasuke probably valued their lives more than Orochimaru himself did (assuming his disapproval of Sasuke's merciful hesitancy is any indication of how much he cherishes his subordinates).
 

Besides, even if he didn't go on missions, he's at least guilty of standing by for three years and not doing anything. I suppose one could say he wasn't strong enough to do something about it though. However, that would mean that the things he did for him were also due to not being able to say no.

He might be morally obligated to assist, but Sasuke isn't beholdened to any of them in other lenses. Most of the people comprising Orochimaru's prison population are riff-raff from the various nations of the continent (big and small probably). Even if he was acting in Konoha's service, he may not be legally obligated to assist any of them since many are foreign nationals and I doubt there's much in the way of political policy for detainees in this situation that Kishi has given any serious thought to.

If the Land of Iron's neutrality pact with the 5 major nations is any indication of how someone with no interest in political/military interference treats issues of warfare and ethical conduct unrelated to themselves, Sasuke wouldn't have any compulsion to assist since he's not aligned with the prisoners, only himself, during that period of time.

Is it detestable that he leaves them at the mercy of Orochimaru? Yes, but that's hardly the same as Sasuke actively participating in the experiments performed on them and he did release many of the prisoners after Orochimaru's "death".
 

Sasuke did this:

http://i7.mangapanda...uto-1567371.jpg

It's stated outright Naruto only managed to survive this because he moved at the last second. It's also stated outright (twice) that Sasuke only let Naruto alone at the end because he didn't want to be Itachi's puppet, not because he was secretely "good" inside. It's also important to remember.

Kishimoto still passed on the message that Team 7 attempting to get Sasuke was a honourable goal and that Sasuke himself could be saved from darkness after VotE. There are only two options. Either people realise that Sasuke's evil acts are supposed to be wand waved or you don't cut him any slack.

Again, this isn't an effort to justify what Sasuke has done. Only that the severity of his crimes were less extreme back then and that they weren't as inclusive as they later became when he purposefully aided Akatsuki to capture another country's shinobi and attacked an international summit of major continental leaders (his crimes in Part 1 and early Part 2 were limited to Konoha for the most part).

Edited by Atheck, 27 January 2014 - 11:43 PM.

[Mistraal]

I miss pure solid evil so much these days....

 
I'm not sure pure solid evil really exists, even in reality. If it does, it's rare.

Barring some chaotic evil, random as hell w/no motivation villain you find in daytime cartoons, most people who find themselves on the "bad" side have motivation for being there. Revenge, money, possibly even bad choices in youth or boredom. The only way you could create a truly evil character would be to have one who was sociopathic from birth who is unable to ever feel empathy for anything but himself/herself. That kind of character would have had to have been explained from the very beginning of the manga and it would be super obvious he's the ultimate bad guy.

 

I think Danzo comes as close to this description of "evil" as this manga gets. However, Itachi and Sasuke's actions, despite the confusing motivations, cannot be excused. However, I wouldn't call it "evil".

I don't think Madara is evil either. Danzo and Pain were much more menacing characters to me than Madara. Madara is like that kid on the Roleplaying board who keeps Godmoding and you can't take him seriously. He has a very childlike "I will destroy the woooorld!! Muahahahah!" element to him that I find laughable.

In a way, I liked Obito as the last villain better. I want a character who has been through hell and can't be Talk no Jutsu'ed by Naruto. I think it would rock Naruto's world and force him to grow and look at it in a new light if he was forced to kill someone who had turned bad by things that had happened to him. Maybe that's too dark, I don't know.

Edited by Mistraal, 27 January 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[FireFox]

 

In his defence, Sasuke never actually pledged his loyalty to Orochimaru or his ambitions. There's little information about the three years spent under his tutelage. Whether he participated in the experimentations or not is unknown, but I would suspect that he didn't if his criticism of Orochimaru's practices is in keeping with his actions. The worst he might have done besides affiliating himself with a highly wanted fugitive (affiliation isn't the same thing as collaboration) is take illegal drugs to stimulate the growth rate of his power. 

 

Sasuke didn't really have any allegiances to anyone at the time besides Hebi and himself. He was neutral with his own moral framework. He had a personal mission that existed independently of any political or military organisation. 

It doesn't matter  if he pledged loyalty to Oro or his ambitions he was associated with him that's bad on itself , and he offer his body to him for Oro's goals and his owns he knew this . And yes he did participate in his experiments or else how do you think his body was immune to poison , making ones body immune to all kinds of poison is still an a experiment and that requires doing research to ones body for him to be able to do that .  Letting Oro do that is not like taking illegal drugs is totally different and even Tsunade said that who knows what kind of other experiments Oro did to him , Kishi wouldn't put Tsunade to said that if it didn't mean something and its very likely that the experiments of Sasukes body were different from the other ones , i suspect that it has more with his Uciha blood . Still in real world this is a heavy crime and for this he would get at least a  lifetime jail .