9679 replies to this topic

[Candleguy]

Hiya Folks. My first post here and I guess I'm here to drop some wall texts.

I am an occasional contributor to the battle-grounds of NF and at times I end up writing up essays about things. So y'know I thought I'd collect some of my thoughts and reasoning and place them here and see what you guys think, since it seems from the size of this thread you guys should be NS veterans.

I am open to critiques and to where I've erred in logic and whatnot

On the argument that all the pairings are on the same level now --Click here to view--

Those who want to argue that NS has not changed since day 1 or more likely has reverted back to equal standing with its het competition may want to ask themselves which of these relationships between the two characters has changed the most since the inception of the manga (in positive light).

Naruto and Sakura's relationship

Hinata and Naruto's relationship

Sasuke and Sakura's and Naruto.

To this point Hinata and Naruto's relationship (even with her confession) has not changed in thought or in action. Hinata herself has changed not her dynamic with Naruto until otherwise noted.

Sasuke and Sakura

So the author has clearly invested plot to change their relationship. Yet somehow people argue as if this consistent change has no bearing on the discussion or is to be seen as equal or even lesser growth in contrast to what has happened with the other pairings. When the reality is with the other 2 het pairs only one can even attempt to make a claim of positive change. NH since Naruto is now aware of Hinata's feeling and he has at the very least been friendly to her in the past 300 chapters.

My point ultimately I find certain perceptions to be a curious thing. You want to argue that NS has grown deep in a platonic nature. That's fine, I don not dismiss this possibility, I see why those who advocate an open ending would argue this. Though with the understanding that Naruto loves Sakura, it's undeniable the author has significantly changed the dynamic of the relationship between Naruto and Sakura since chapter 1, yet has given the more "likely" (I.E NH and SS) romantic pursuits even less in terms of anything ambiguously romantic or even in friendship

Its a queer thing.

Part 2 against the perception that all pairings on the same level --Click here to view--

Additionally, IMO you'll need to raise Johnnie Cochran from the dead to make a case that NS is on equal status with SS

OK if I tell you

Sakura loves Sasuke
Naruto loves Sakura

You'll be oh OK that sounds equal. Now if I go Sauske has tried to kill Sakura three times Sakura, while yes still loving him, attempted to kill Sasuke once, and confessed to another guy to get him to stop trying to save Sasuke.

What's your perception of the author portrayal. And you know what I'll throw in the negatives of NS.

Sakura lies to Naruto to get him to forget about Sasuke (arguably tries to manipulate him.) Naruto tells her "I hate people who lie to themselves" yet to this point there is no evidence that he has lost feelings for her.

Again all things considered is that an equal portrayal of character relationships by the author? Really?

Now for NH, as far as author portrayal. I'll give NH that its nowhere near as negative overall as SS nor does it have as big as a "wow what the kitten is character X thinking" as much as NS does.

But here's something I want to toss out for consideration sake. It's funny I don't like angsty relationships or angst itself at all, but there is ZERO melodrama in NH. Which is amazing for the kind of author we have. Hinata seems fairly content with what's happened. This new and improved stronger/more confident Hinata the one who confesses because she wants to KamiKaze to prove her love doesn't even bring it up again when Naruto is standing right beside her? She doesn't even think about what Naruto's feeing for her might be. Yes we know she feels strongly about him but has the issue ever come up regarding how she thinks Naruto feels about her? You can't argue that shes waiting for everything to get fixed before making a play, because we saw Kishi play this game with Naruto and we can reasonably make the argument he's waiting for the right time in contrast Hinata has not gotten a single panel to indicate this.

Hell Hinata even smiles (if I recall correctly) when Sakura hugged Naruto. Why even bring that scene up (the focus on Hinata)? In contrast its undeniable Naruto has been pained by Sakura's lack of looking his way and when she was hugging Sasuke he was torn up.

Now for Sakura's side, I'll even argue for melodrama in a platonic level and it doesn't fundamentally change my point on author portrayal anyway. The confession while clearly a negative still injected melodrama in the NS equation for both sides of the equation for the first time ever. Naruto we've always known and we can see is clearly hurt from the conversation with Sai. Sakura for the first time has actually been emotionally tacked on an individual basis with Naruto (she has felt useless, but she's felt useless regarding Team 7 and Sasuke as well) when (for the time ever I guess shrugs) finally realizing Naruto loves her, She angsts on it big time amongst admittedly other things.

Now I can see gears in people's head thinking well why can't SS argue the murder attempts injected melodrama as well? Well there's one main reason, the negative kitten Sasuke does to Sakura doesn't affect him in the slightest. It can't be melodrama or even drama when he actually does not give a kitten. As far as murder attempts go Sasuke banters and dramatizes like a woman scorned with Naruto, prunes his feathers for Itachi about superiority, and even ranted at Kakashi. There's no internal dialog, no hesitation, no inkling that she even affects or weighed on him emotionally at all since her confession in part one.

So again how are they equal when NS has a more dramatic emphasis and less negative light shone upon it than NH and SS respectively.

Discussion with a NH fan about confessions. Following my argument against parings "equality" --Click here to view--

Not looking to be dragged into more wall text stuff for the night, becuase I will get carried away. So with no offense to you I'll tackle what can be answered quickly or is something that doesn't need me to reiterate a point I already made

Arguably? What? Read your own sentence. Lying to someone to get him to do something isn't "arguably" manipulation, it's the very definition of it...

I say arguably as I make a personal distinction between Madara/Danzou manipulation and Sakura's scattered brain reflexive thought process on trying to fix things.

But is it what it is I'm not going to fight that hard for that point. Unless its reversed somehow she lied.

But it does show she revealed a side of her he didn't like.

Based on Naruto's characterization from this point in manga to everything before...what does this mean?

That Naruto doesn't hold Sakura on a pedestal? From my personal POV that is fantastic and I also wish he called Sasuke out on his kitten.

But back on point there's no inclination that he actually hates her. In fact where is there any indication that he is/was filled with anymore anger or frustration at her than when he reached the point of saying (if I recall correctly) to Sasuke I'm going to break your legs and drag you back home. (A instance of anger towards Sasuke yet he does not emotionally begrudge him)


Did it hurt him yes? But should I assume it negates his feelings or took a hammer to the feeling he had for her?

I'll have to see that happen

I think team 7 provides more than enough melodrama. NH can be just a beautiful thing. Naruto deserves something like Hinata to happen to him with all the kitten he's going through.

Anything could just be a beautiful thing with the right spin. I was simply showcasing the lack of individual drama between both parties.

At best the only argument for that is the transformation and not in terms of arguing that Hinata was the sole reason for his transformation because that in on itself is an argument with as much holes as anything else.

1) Hinata didn't want to Kamikaze to prove her love. She jumped in to try to help in any way she could, even if she knew she was out of her league. She wanted go help him as soon as he got there and had to be stopped. What was she thinking? "He is all alone" "But he is fighting for the village". Not "but I need to prove my love to him!" It was not about proving her love, it was about wanting to help him.

The manga doesn't showcase it like this though. I'm not saying she wasn't helping him, or didn't intend to help, Sakura felt like she was helping Naruto with her confession as well. (Some reason though hardly anyone is willing to give any leeway towards good intentions for that)

But the fact is the manga goes out if its way for Hinata herself with her own mouth to say she was doing something selfish, which kinda supports my reasoning there.

Now I understand there are pairing stuff where its a fight of interpretation but this one she says it herself. So you know that adds a little bit to it

For what its worth I'm not one to use this is a disparaging remark upon Hinata's character.

2) She knew Naruto didn't love her, what would have been the point? She already had accomplished a lot by simply telling him how she felt. It would be totally out of character for Hinata to bring it up again. He knows. If he is interested, at some point he will come to her, there was nothing to gain from trying to pressure him. Not to mention the only time he stood beside her was when confronting the rookies about the decision to kill Sasuke. Not exactly the most romantic context.

Until otherwise noted it is what it is. There's a lot of things across the board you can go well they're too preoccupied to do this and this.

That being said we are given a peek at Naruto's thoughts on Sakura with a conversation with Sai relatively soon there is a big event between them (N&S). In turn Sakura gets the revelation of Naruto's feelings and then again there's a big event between the two characters.

Is there not a bigger event for N&H than Hinata's confession? Especially after tons of chapters with little to no interaction between and then it only leads to more chapters with no interactions between them.

You might want to argue well the NS big event was the killing of the pairing! Well obviously I have reservations about that opinion.

But I've already wall texted about that

If I understand Hinata's character correctly, here's roughly what she is thinking about this. Naruto's "I really like people like you" in part 1 validated her efforts. It showed she was walking the right path. Not only was she becomming someone she liked more, she was also becomming someone Naruto liked more. She has faith in that path, in their nindo, and I believe she still thinks that way. If we were to see Naruto and Hinata interract, I'm almost certain Hinata would be a lot different from the Hinata who always froze up near Naruto. But I do think she would not be too open about the romance issue until Naruto himself brings it up. As far as she is concerned, the ball is in Naruto's camp.

Here I feel there's no separation between Hinata's individual character growth and growth between two characters that one would consider "relationship building" even a strong platonic relationship.

I am not going to disagree with the fact that Naruto is a huge influence on Hinata. But the dynamic of their relationship (until otherwise noted) has not changed nor is there an indication that the aspect of romance with Naruto has any bearing on Hinata's thought process. I understand her blushing and she thinks of him in a sweet light yes, what I'm saying is she didn't seek or need or even attempt to create an individual connection on a deeper level then the one that maintained mostly a absent Naruto in everything but as a source of inspiration and admiration. You could take the angle of romance or even a strong platonic friendship aspect from them completely and it wouldn't affect Hinata's interaction with Naruto as of now nor would it affect her growing as a person by admiring Naruto from afar.

(btw Naruto also smiled, altough admittedly a more pained smile)

And we know about "smiles" from Sai who has been known, depending on who you ask, to be a mouth piece for the author.

To show that Hinata is just nice like that, even nicer than Naruto. Also you got to keep in mind her main goal. Hinata wanted Naruto alive, risked her life for him, and both of them survived. She clearly didn't think NS was happening right there, and clearly still think she has a chance with Naruto so there was no real urgency. This was Naruto's hero welcome moment, and she was letting him enjoy it

I agree Hinata is nice like that and is likely a truly supportive person. However is she a nobler and nicer person than Naruto? Are we to simply assume she can separate herself from her feelings easier than Naruto.

Now I understand there didn't need to be a pained smile when it was Naruto's time in the spotlight. But in the grand schemes of everything, its not like it wouldn't make sense there, like it would be villainous or callous, even if it was a brief pain and then she recovered graciously. Kishi has given us nothing in regards to her looking/needing/or even contemplating Naruto reciprocating.

Edited by Candleguy, 03 February 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[Candleguy]

Discussion with anti Big 3 shipper: On why Kishi will probably resolve the pairing subplots. On Sakura's story arc, and why NS is more likely than the other pairings despite chapter 540 --Click here to view--

I'm not going to deal with most of your Sakura stuff above because genuinely no offense it's not worth arguing. At the moment whether you're right our wrong (about her character) I don't care because as much as I'd perfer her to have individual achievement, the romantic angle is the path Kishi has chosen.

These points are what interest me. Spoiler for wall text

Please stop deluding yourself and actually read my arguments.

The main theme of the manga is the strength of bonds affecting people in various ways. As a means of showing this, shonen manga bring up friendships between the mostly male characters. In manga where romance was important or simply made obvious, these romantic bonds were resolved. In this manga, romantic bonds are simply there to show that there are bonds other than friendship and camaraderie, but that does not mean that they will be requited, as these particular bonds do not serve a vital role in the plot.

A) Irrelevance

Ironically your argument on irrelevance is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. By that I mean the discussion on if anything will be requited. Since there are things called subplots in the land of fiction that don't necessarily need to be tied into the overarching plot or have a huge impact on it. Is the romance relevant to the moon eye plan, senju vs uchi, Naruto redeeming Sasuke? Nope. Are these the major plot element of the story? Yes

Where's the relevance then?

Obviously to the characters who have these feelings. One of whom is the main character and another described as the author as the "heroine" and the last a massivley popular side-character.

Some (the female side of the equation) are all but defined by these subplots. So the fact remains, how is it irrelevant when Sakura's "Failsession" took up almost the entirety of a chapter. How is irrelevant when Naruto, Sakura, Hinata either look back on situations, remark upon their feelings multiple times, or have their feelings motivate major actions?

There's a distinction between badly written romances (Kishi) and something that an editor decided to toss in to get the chick market (Like Bishies). IMO Kishi goes out of his way to write these little love stories but for the most parts fails at them. Obviously he's dragging things along, but that in on itself does not signify that the author's intent wasn't to layer his story with romantic elements. Let's take a look at something.

Unrequited "romances"/ character traits

Obito loves Rin
Rin loves Kakashi
Jiraiya loves Tsunade
The glasses chick like Shika
Lee likes Sakura
Sakura likes Sasuke
Naruto likes Sakura
Hinata likes Naruto


Requited romances
Tsunade and Dan (tragic death involved)
Konan and Yahiko (tragic death involved)
Minato and Kushina (tragic deaths but died together)
Asuma and Kurenai (tragic death involved)

Come on dude Kishi digs this kind of kitten. It's not just differentiating the kinds of bonds (actually I don't even know what that would prove or it's purpose), one or two of the relationships would have served that purpose perfectly. But there's more romance than a typical shonen needs, some of them even having vague though ultimately perhaps inconsequential parallels to other relationships

I mean was there anything more unnecessary then seeing Konan and Yahiko come together?

Because Kishi loves it, and its a fantasy story.

B) Whether or not any the pairings will be requited.

Now obviously to argue something is set in stone is ridiculous. The most set in stone thing we imagine (Sasuke's redemption) in this manga can still realistically not come about.

Here's why I feel the romantic subplots will be resolved

a) Much of Sakura's development is permeated with the romantic subplot. Hell the big 3 pretty much hinge on the way Sakura swings. We know she's not going to suddenly have senju blood, and we know she's not going to jump out and kick Itachi's ass.

So she as the "heroine" follows her path and her path has her saving lives in the hospital and some random nin pops up out of nowhere and asks about her love-life. This is not Kishi remembering oh I should throw a tease in there, this is him making her storyline active

What I see is

Naruto states "I can't confess...." (A valid refutation of this statement would be evidence that he's over Sakura)

+

Sakura's plot emphasis on her love life and (Two confessions, fodder nin, obvious kishi pairing teases)

+

Hinata's death door confession

=

No wait there's no reason why anyone would expect any kind of resolution to these pairings /sarcasm

People truly underestimate how much of a stripped down soap opera Kishi has created here. You bring up YuYu Hakusho (I think?) obviously Yusuke Keiko was set in stone from the word go as do most shonen manga that have love interests in that regard. It barely needed to be brought up since the reader knew the deal. He liked her, she liked him, it was there from the beginning.

Now I don't see how the differences in how the romance is handled in these two manga is an indication that Naruto's romantic subplots will not be resolved. YuYu had far less emphasis on anything romance and that was wrapped up yet you want to argue that Naruto is more likely than not, not to be resolved?

Ironically (once again) you take shots at Mr.H insisting he go read shoujo when the case is the way Kishi handles his teases and female character arcs is closer to badly written shoujo than actual shonen.

To reiterate Kishi has gone out of his way to

1) Have Naruto state "I can't confess until I resolve a specific situation) The situation having to mean the plot of the story

2) Sakura confessed twice to two guys (plot emphasis on her love life)

a) One where she went "me me me I can't live without you" and the guy said "thanks" and knocked her out.

b) "Naruto I want you now forget about Sasuke" The guy has to grab her by the shoulder and tell her you're lying to yourself

2b) Hinata confesses in Grand Fashion with a one page spread right before a moment where she is believed to be killed.

Oh the unnecessary melodrama. Name 5 shonen that handles the background romances like this


Now you're argument may be "hey it was all friendship moments" and its a credible one however I argue

a) This almost assumes romance can't stem from friendship

b) Disregards the unrequited aspect of the narrative.

A unrequited relationship carries an obvious distinction than friendship. I mean that within the story and character dynamics, there's a difference in narrative atmosphere when there's development between B and Naruto, Ino and Sakura, Ino, Shika, Chouji, then when Sakura finally warms to Naruto or Naruto acknowledges Hinata.

The obvious testament of this is that the relationship have come to a head. The friendship moments gather to a point where Hinata had the courage to confess. Sakura felt close enough to Naruto to try and sway him away from Sasuke using romance as bait. The relationships have changed in dynamic and need resolution because of it. It hasn't remained static so until the manga ends the relationships are currently in flux.

Also in regards to the static nature of the relationships, the main reason I feel NS is more likely to work out in the end over NH is the difference in magnitude in the nature and consistency of the change in the relationships.

Of course you're right if nothing happens in the end and I'm right if something does.

Now riddle me this, how is a romantic bond among NS and SS supposed to be realistically resolved? I can see NH potentially happening if only because it hasn't been shot down entirely, but as for the other two? Not so much for different reasons.

First of all I'm going to disregard the implication of NS and SS being on even keel. SS as far as I'm concerned is the Moby kitten of Sakura's development. She chases that whale into the ocean and anything she has left is completely sunk.

To answer your riddle. Sakura changes her mind. that's it. I understand the argument that it won't be well written. Most feel the manga is bad, but its a little redundant to go well ten chapters of this bad book were badly written.

Argument against this: If she hasn't changed her mind at this point....yadda..yadda

1) Because no fiction has ever existed where in the climax the loe interest goes "culmination of feelings revelation time!"

a)In B4 Well NH and SS can say the same! IMO no they can't I have reasons based on the narrative why, but the question at hand how things can be resolved for NS.

2) Because Kishi has shown Sakura's faith/love to be unwavering.

> "Naruto don't chase after Sasuke (Sasuke's a wanted criminal, she is aware Sasuke is being targeted to to be killed) you'll get hurt.

> Interactions with Karin "Sasuke's changed"

> Part one "Sasuke don't leave me I'll be lonely!"

Part 2 Come within an inch of stabbing him.

She didn't kill him though that must mean she's in deep love :ohpek

> The guy you like is great ":("

No really there's no reason at all for anyone to perhaps think that Kishi is portraying Sakura as wavering

Plus it's not like Naruto and Sakura are strangers.

The second argument against this: Well Sakura's a b*tch for doing that to Naruto herp derp

1) No indication Naruto carries that cross with him

2) Sakura's development I assume is not done as she a) Has not had a moment of releasing her guilt b) The last we saw of her was her feeling down. So yeah Kishi has left room to go back to her.

So yeah realistically all it takes it for Sakura's story arc to come to a close.

PT 2 --Click here to view--

And even then, it was not necessarily a sign that the mangaka would decide to have romance occur.

I did say nothing is set in stone.

I'd personally be surprised to see any author going out of his way as Kishi has to make it the sticking point to certain characters, having side characters (Sai) reinforce whatever opinion and having the MC go "in the future I will."

To not address these issues.

If you think that, then you miss the point of the work.

Yes obviously the manga is about bonds. And there are types of bonds. I don't see why I have to disregard specific bonds that serve to and have come to change character dynamics and solely accept a broad brush. Why can't I argue of the nature or the transformation thereof of certain specific bonds when the manga is not giving me any reason not to, by consistently bringing a specific aspect up though inconsequential to the main plot it may be.

It's what the bonds do that relates to the manga's biggest themes.

The heme of a story is not the specific narrative. The story expresses the themes, the theme doesn't tell the story. So while the manga's theme is about bonds and doesn't require romance, it doesn't in anyway hinder the progression of romance. Romance would not lessen or detract from the notion of bonds, and arguably it could support it.

And clearly from the narrative Kishi is quite comfortable with romantic elements and the drama it entails.

When you introduce doubt into a shonen where romance is not a major priority, you significantly impact the chances of romance occurring between the specific characters involved.

IMO this is a faulty argument. For one thing if the author was writing that manga like he writes HxH Keiko could have gotten killed to set-up a Yusuke power-up.

We assume YuYu was set in stone based upon the nature of cliches. If one were to argue Kishi takes note of shoujo style (penchant for melodrama, females defined by romances, guilt & angst) grab any generic shoujo and let's argue once again based on cliches.

Can a romance happen? Yes. But is there also evidence suggesting otherwise? Definitely. That's my point.

As I stated earlier nothing is set in stone. However I don't really see why it shouldn't.

We could say Kishi will cop-out and take an open end route. Ok, still there's nothing in the story or his writing style however that validates this over the alternative.

Fine, I can see the validity of this point. But it doesn't mean that feelings are being requited, just at the very least acknowledged.

Why should I not see this as a stop on the train instead of the last stop?

I mean really how many stories wait until the very end to resolve the "will they won't they" moments?

And yet she still chases that bishonen whale. Obsessive behavior seems to do that to a lot of fictional characters.

If it lasts until the end then I'm wrong, as simple as that.

I don't think it will.

It's safe to say that it's still unrequited.

Not going to get me to defend SS.

The fact remains though the story is not over. However judging by what you've said and the fact that Sasuke and Sakura have not exchanged more than 3 lines for the majority of the manga at this point, the viability of this pairings is lost on me.

The fact is, Naruto likes her for whatever reason. And Sakura still likes Sasuke even after any sane intelligent person would have started trying to move on to someone less murderous.

So you're telling me Kishi is dragging kitten out with Sakura? Yeah you're right.

As you argue doubt has been cast on the pairings, perhaps I can argue (and will) doubt has been cast on her devotion to Sasuke

Wait, you're arguing for NS based on bad writing being the likely key?

No I'm saying overall the manga has disappointed me. So I acknowledge the people who will, were NS to happen, see the writing flaws of Kishi reflected in the pairing.

I'm saying I understand it's not the best written romance out there I can understand that while defending its foundation and the justification for it through the narrative, were it to become canon.

Mr. H and I had a debate in this thread (I think it was this thread) where he got me to admit that NH and SS happening because of bad writing would be a poor (and thus pointless) argument for the pairing.

Not what I'm saying.

And there's a distinction between bad writing as in making an amateurish attempt at romance. And bad writing as in there's no foundation to the romance.

IMO It's like you have two arguments

One has a weak but factual premise that leads to a Conclusion, another has a fallacious premise which leads to a conclusion.

Which conclusion has more validity?

Just because Sakura knows that her love for Sasuke is unhealthy does not mean she's going to jump to Naruto.

Never said anything was set in stone. And you're changing the discussion

I'm telling you why I believe Kishi will resolve the pairing issue. If you think her acknowledging problems with the Sasuke issue and Naruto mentioning "When I'm done I'll confess" will lead to nothing, fine but I disagree

And its not unreasonable for me to do so based on the narrative given to me.

If she's going to switch love interests, it has to be clearly romantic and well developed.

First of all you must consider that you're demanding more than not only will the genre permit but the author judging by the manga overall.

Look how long Tobi's identity is being stretched out. (Big plot point) How long it took for Naruto to find out about his dad. (not a big plot point) Or for Sakura to even realize how bad Sasuke really was (inconsequential to the plot point)

So you want a clearly romantic switch, when perhaps we've entered the stages of the climax? God forbid Kishi pulls a Bleach with the last Aizen arc.

If you're going to argue on the basis that it should have happened already, you disregard not only that Sakura's character plot is apparently about romance but that also as you pointed out yourself the pairing folk eat it up and it makes the manga is popular.

Also the (subjective) nature of clearly romantic. What do you want here that won't end the paring talk or rob Kishi of a hypothetical cliche over the top "The world is safe, let me kiss you" endgame moment

What we can reasonably assume: Sakura is not going to kiss him or have any explicit endgame PDA until the the manga ends & she won't confess to him again unless Naruto is ready to believe it (Naruto believing it would be the justification of her sincerity) Naruto won't confess till Sasuke is resolved

What we have: A close friendship and SS questioned for the first time ever (not by the reader) by Sakura herself. The basis of SS is in her devotion to Sasuke

Development:

The friendship is developed. Why can't the friendship be seen as stepping stones instead of some kind of strange species that has no connection to romance whatsoever. Hell the close friends to lovers trope permeates Japanese manga. It just happened in Air Gear. Look at how Naruto and Sakura's relationship dynamic started and look at the point it is now. With Sakura recently about to put a knife in Sasuke's back partially to relieve Naruto of this burden. I understand she lied and that's a huge negative but why should I disregard why she did it? To get him away from Sasuke (whom had a bounty on his his head.) Symbolically stabbing Sasuke anyway, choosing Naruto over Sasuke.

And somehow its unreasonable for things to take additional steps before manga end?

The bond they developed over the course of the manga was revealed to be platonic on her end after hundreds of chapters' worth of ambiguity.

And the story ended the next chapter right?

So ok the argument again boils down to "If it hasn't happened yet"

Of course we should disregard the possibility that Kishi has finally started the process of her getting over him. (Why so late? Perhaps her story arc is coming winding down)

At the Kishi summit we see for the VERY first time Sakura come to terms with Sasuke being changed. "He's not the same Sasuke" 540 we see for the very first time Sakura have a bad impression of Sasuke. So for the first time ever we FINALLY see Sakura think negatively towards SS. And not just "maybe we should give up Naruto" because a few chapters ago she just said I"ll believe in them." So she is believing in them and YET still has a bad opinion of Sasuke while holding a tremendously positive opinion of Naruto.

I'll give you that she's not in love with Naruto now. Sure.

But does it negate everything that came before? Why? Because building a close friendship eliminates the possibility of future romance in fiction or RL? Even still, with consideration of perhaps Sakura is now getting over Sasuke?

Besides, Naruto deserves better writing than looking like the rebound guy.

We had this argument.

And I still think its the least substantial criticism to NS just a tier below Sakura beats him up.

PT 3 --Click here to view--

Actually, the argument is more that all three pairings have little in the way of proper foundation when going by the assumption that any future pairing development and resolution will happen onscreen.

And of course on that assumption, we can then (try)objectively note that there are IMO stark difference between the pairings under the light of a microscope. Obviously if we're to agree none will happen, there's no point of entertaining this discussion. So yes the assumption that there will be a pairing, an assumption I have based on my reading of the story, leads to the discussion of the viability of the pairings, and you can guess I have reasons to differentiate the pairings

Unless Kishimoto turns out to be a Hot Gimmick fan taken to 11, I'll assume the world is relatively safe from this.

TBH, I don't grasp the relevance this has to the discussion. I might not even be totally sure why we're arguing here, as I think Kishi take cues from shoujo not to write his entire manga but how he handles this subplot.

When I read a story I understand there are likely to be cliches I tend to think there's cliches and then there's the actual body of work. Or more specifically the author's actual usage of the cliche within his writing style (tone, consistency, themes, characterization et etc).

If cliches are pieces on a chess board, you know how they move, you know their general role, and you know their limitations/strengths. You still need to consider how/or in this case make a reasonable interpretation of how the chess-player has moved the pieces across the board to come close to making a guess at his actual game plan.

The way Kishi has moved, I think I have a reasonable idea at how he will come at me.

Additionally I am a bit amused that you're consistent argument against NS is basically a SS argument "Because she loves him." The current "established" (because the manga ended) conclusion is also the premise of the argument. An argument IMO that adamantly refuses to consider the current atmosphere and the explicit negative portrayal of her "love"

She didn't choose him over Sasuke. She chose Sakura's interpretation of Sasuke over Naruto. She chose Sakura's ego over Naruto. She chose to put Sasuke out of his misery in spite of how this would affect Naruto not only because she wanted to help her friend, but because she thought everything was her fault. Sakura's selfish. Well meaning, but selfish. It's her canon personality according to the databooks.

This is funny because you say that Sakura is selfish but then proceed to imply a choice wasn't made. When its in the act of her selfishness that she makes the choice. In being selfish you act in your own interest, do things that make you feel better? Apparently getting Naruto off the Sasuke train would be in her best interest. It would apparently have made her feel better having Sasuke alone in the world with everyone aiming for his death.

Why should I not perceive this as the selfish act of one choosing a person over the other, in the pursuit of one's best interest?

Do I deny the selfishness of the act? No. (And I expect Sakura to keep improving, a relative term, used in contrast to her part 1 self)

It's the inherent choice of the act itself and what it may or may not mean that I also consider. All things created equal her albeit selfish reaction to the situation was "I prefer Sasuke be dead and Naruto be happy."

I'll revise my statement in accordance with your assumptions she chooses her ego (1) and Naruto's well being (2) over Sasuke's life.

Sorry, if you missed my point.

So I'm supposed to take HS jargon and simply accept it as if it's real. Especially accept it as if its real in the context of this fantasy story.

But ok let's try:

Going from one relationship to the next right away to avoid the pain of a breakup.

> Relationship

> Breakup

> Avoid pain

CLEARLY Sakura was in a relationship went through a breakup and has avoided pain. Low tier anti-argument that is contingent on the "fact" that Sakura cannot genuinely love Naruto were NS be canon in regular manga time.

Off panel epilogue time skip I suppose would satisfy the logic that "time" is somehow the measuring stick of someone's capability for romantic intent

*shrug*

We can note all before 540 as consistent platonic development with unrequited on Naruto's side. Where does that invalidate the process of Sakura growing consistently closer to Naruto as the manga has gone on (she hated him when she first showed up) or establishes a stop sign precluding the process of change in Naruto and Sakura's relationship dynamic from continuing towards the climax

Oh wait "if it hasn't happened..."

[Candleguy]

Why NS would not be a rebound if it became canon --Click here to view--

IDGAF if you don't like NaruSaku, there's kitten I don't like for various reasons but when I argue against somethings I like to think I have a fundamental grasp of what I'm talking about to avoid a) hypocrisy b) Not sounding like I'm 12.

Now I put myself at the risk of parroting "OMG like SS is not abusive and Sasuke will be in love with Sakura so everything that happens in the manga doesn't count"

I also put myself at the risk of wall-texting like a jackass over pairing kitten. Pairings are teh srz bizness yuck yuck

Still I would like to argue why

Within reason. Because I am in fact essentially a pairing jackass, I do try to be reasonable....most of the time.

You want to argue Sakura hasn't been a good friend, you don't like NS yadda, yadda, other reasons OK. (Not why I'm here) However the word rebound, have a funademntal grasp of the nature of the word.

Under the parameter of this forums' apparent definition of rebound, it means solely that you've been rejected and have found someone better than the last person. Which adds the delightful twinge of irony depending on what pairing fanbase is throwing the word rebound around.

The term rebound implies two things almost immediately SS was a real formerly mutual relationship (of romantic origin) and that Naruto and Sakura have already initiated a relationship of romantic intent (So much for sibling like)

The following argument of course is based under the hypothetical assumption that the author would have NS canon. If that doesn't happen, then *shrug*



Do I have explain why Sakura wasn't in a "breakup" neither was she in "love relationship." More specifically she got a case of "no thanks" at best

And Sakura officially achieved her heart-break what 3 years ago (manga-time)? Sasuke rejected at the end of part 1. Yes she kept/keeps thinking things will get better and she'd get another shot so to date she isn't over him. That's 3 years of wishful thinking, feeding off Naruto's energy and I don't know like a six month span in which he tried to kill her three times which has finally (IMO) given her a negative opinion on Sasuke.

My point assuming Sakura's plot IS romance in the end game it would have been a process that was 3 years in the making.

That's not a rebound

Let's try another definition that seems to favor general consensus



Should I assume you can read the above statement and be able to differentiate the difference between what's happened in canon and what's being described? Or shouldn't I?

Now has her feelings for Sasuke affected Sakura? Definitely. And the recent "Fail-session" is the point where it affected Naruto and her friendship since as plenty of you will be quick to argue it has been a platonic relationship to the current date.

Now the argument apparently is that Sakura rebounds off her platonic relationship with Sasuke to her platonic relationship with Naruto? You see how retarded that sounds?

But for the sake of the argument I'm willing to agree she rebounded into another friendship, however I also see that in the case where NS is to be canon (at a future time-date) the relationship would be transformed into something different from its former platonic status. Judging by Naruto would have to come to point to believe her and she'd be at the point where she's telling the absolute truth

Now we're saying that the same rebounding status from the previous friendship dynamic still applies? By what logic?

Additionally IMO fodder-love-nin will be the catalyst of Sakura seriously evaluating her feelings. Besides going to naruto "well maybe we should give up" That remains to be seen



Would have been exactly that given she got with Naruto at the of Part 1 (where her heart was broken before a 3 year time skip) and again for the sake of the argument I'll CONCEDE the last murder attempt as the official point where she gets itSasuke is saying "no thanks" (under the assumption of course that she is moving on and NS will be canon)

In no way can her relationship (friendship) with Naruto be descried as short or having formed too quickly And the transformation of that friendship into a hypothetical something involve more than rebound by definition could possibly entail.



I added this because people will inevitably argue. Well sakura's a b*tch, nevertheless, that is a separate argument, as my point is to showcase why NS would not be a rebound by definition, not solely by perception, (because I can perceive rainbows coming out of my ass) but by definition.

While a justifiable argument can be made that Sakura for selfish reasons has taken Naruto's friendship for granted. We can't use that as credence to call the relationship/the possible future relationship something it's not per definition.

That is the distinction of course which to me separates, seeing Sasuke trying to kill Sakura 3 times, slapping food out of her hand when she's trying to help him, telling her to keep her mouth shut and making her cry (none of which is done for comedic or light hearted circumstances) and saying the relationship is not abusive and me saying, kitten is not a rebound per definition of the word rebound.

In conclusion ironically enough: The highest credence to the argument of a rebound would have been had Naruto accepted the confession. In which he would have believed her despite her lies. However the general argument is that if Naruto ever comes to a point where he believes (the implication being she's not lying thus NS canon) that it would STILL be a rebound.

The argument in on itself is highly faulty as one ultimately holds subjective perception to be reality, (since the reality would be by definition as I've tried to showcase not a rebound).

But this is a pairing thread so I've likely done nothing but soothe my ego typing that up.

Why Naruto's "dismissal" of promise of a lifetime is not a strike against NS --Click here to view--

NaruSaku's 'promise of the life time', one of its legendary arguments in 'why Naruto is going after Sasuke so much' was thrown out the window with relative ease by Naruto




That's called 'at the expense of NaruSaku'. Feel free to ask more.

Now the argument of the POAL "refutation" scene comes at the expense of NaruSaku takes into consideration mostly a traditional NStard argument. Many a NS-tard have argued "POAL" as a means to explain Naruto's overt determination to retrieve Sasuke beyond that of his own desire to bring back his good pal. Which implies that the promise itself was on equal footing in the foundation of Naruto's desire to retrieve Sasuke.

It's such a bad argument that SS can promote this line of thought to advocate Naruto as it's biggest fan.

Why POAL is important is about Naruto being supportive and not about it (the implication being his love of Sakura) being a motivation to retrieve Sasuke.

Ok reestablishing the source of comfort of Team 7 was a piece of Naruto's desire to return with Sasuke, in addition to Naruto's empathy in understanding Sasuke in the process of understanding himself and that individual connection with Sasuke forged from their rivalry/pushing each other to be strong, Sasuke taking Haku's needles, yadda yadda what Kishi tells and doesn't exactly show as he does with most of the manga.

But in the end making Sakura happy and retrieving Sasuke were two separate desires from two separate emotional motivations. And the overlapping of it in the case that Sakura loves Sasuke led to the creation of POAL.

So with consideration of POAL

a) We know Naruto would have strongly wanted to bring Sasuke back regardless of if he had made the promise or not

b) The first time POAL was brought up IIRC Sakura asked him to do this for her, and it was reinforced when she walked into Naruto's hospital room overtly pretending everything was OK, to the point even Shikmaru was like "....." So obviously Naruto is aware she was f**cked up over it.

c) In the face of it the promise Naruto did not erase his romantic intent. Yes his discovery of the extent of Sakura's feeling in that "sad face" hospital scene led to the suppression of his overt interest it did not negate it. In fact it coincides with respect to her romantic feelings to a point in that when Sasuke is back she'll likely be happy, and then Naruto was to take another shot at her.

From my understanding of these three things IMO the POAL (in addition Naruto feeling as if he let himself and her down) was about cheering up Sakura and keeping her out of the mind-state she was in after she somehow considered it her own personal failure for not being able to keep Sasuke from walking out.

Another example of the lengths Naruto goes to shield Sakura from emotional harm and cheer her up despite the circumstances (perhaps almost to a fault some can argue) She was crumbling and she came to Naruto for support and he became a pillar of support. Being being an active pillar of support to a potential LI who is falling apart for whatever reason is why a NS should have considered it a positive. Whether she took it for granted in the future notwithstanding.

Sidenote: Naruto believing she likes/loves Sakura never hampered Naruto's chase of her before Sasuke bounced from the village. A person can reasonably argue that as long as Sakura was in a relatively happy state as she was pre-Sasuke's defection, her romantic feelings were a matter to be overcome by Naruto winning her over. We can assume based on characterization that Naruto is not going to pursue a chronically depressed Sakura. This is not to say that his immediate priority is not Saskue (as it should be considering what's happened to Sasuke) but its a possible additional factor in Naruto's romantic interest for Sakura being on the backburner.

So when Sakura goes "I don't want Sasuke back" It should surprise no one when he went "well I still do for my own reasons."

Bringing Sasuke back was not about her thus POAL was not about returning Sasuke to her/recreating Team 7 for her. POAL was sbout reassuring her and Naruto taking the load off her shoulders and eating that burden she placed on herself.

Yes the mark on NS in that entire sequence is that obviously Sakura is doing what she does, making errors in judgement. But the POAL "refutation" there is not an indictment against NS (yes it does harm some people's specific argument) in that Naruto's determination to retrieve Sasuke does not take anything from NaruSaku (with the knowledge that based on the narrative NS has no ties to the overarching plot regardless). It doesn't negate why he made that promise or specifically why he accepted the promise and made a big deal out of it in front of her when the ultimate objective of the promise (get Sasuke back) was essentially and coincidentally a promise he made to himself beforehand. Because it's a part of the whole separate picture of Naruto being there for her.

[redragon88]

Sawyer7mage.... I've had many spats with him before. Isn't he a Naruhina fan?

Well, good points.

He's a NaruHina fan but not an obsessed one. His videos are actually pretty cool so I highly recommend them. The video where he mentions those 3 main themes was actually a rant about pairing wars so he wasn't supporting NaruSaku or anything like that. He just happened to mention those themes as being about Naruto in general. The minute he mentioned them I noticed it could be applied with NaruSaku as well, but they can be used in many different ways (Naruto never giving up in his fights, Naruto achieving world peace since Jiraiya and Nagato failed, Naruto changing the views of villains), the love part is just one of them.

[tricksie]

I think Sakura will have to make it. Naruto is convinced she is still has something for Sasuke and at this point views himself as unworthy because he hasn't saved Sasuke. The scene with applies and the POAL I think cemented in his mind a belief that her heart lies with Sasuke.

Naruto is going to have to have his mind changed about both of those things, but the only way I see that happening is for Sakura to make the move herself and show him that he's wrong about that.

good point, and the precedent is set with Konan and Yahiko. They parallel the spirit of Naru/Saku with Yahiko dedicated to the mission and Konan having to find a space to show her concern and caring for him.

[Fenris]

Someone just said that Sakura knows Hinata loves Naruto and that she wouldn't do that (hurt hinata emotionally) and run into Naruto's arms. But that works both ways if they want to argue that. HINATA Knows that SAKURA loves Naruto, she witnessed it in the hug scene after Pain - and her approving face basically spills out the facts - and she wouldn't hurt either of them like that. Sorry, had to rant.

[Soul]

Someone just said that Sakura knows Hinata loves Naruto and that she wouldn't do that (hurt hinata emotionally) and run into Naruto's arms. But that works both ways if they want to argue that. HINATA Knows that SAKURA loves Naruto, she witnessed it in the hug scene after Pain - and her approving face basically spills out the facts - and she wouldn't hurt either of them like that. Sorry, had to rant.

Hmm..Then I think It's up for Naruto to make the move?

[Phantom_999]

^ Oh sh#t. That's a long post. Ill read it later.

Thank you for the data book Phantom.

You're welcome

Someone just said that Sakura knows Hinata loves Naruto and that she wouldn't do that (hurt hinata emotionally) and run into Naruto's arms. But that works both ways if they want to argue that. HINATA Knows that SAKURA loves Naruto, she witnessed it in the hug scene after Pain - and her approving face basically spills out the facts - and she wouldn't hurt either of them like that. Sorry, had to rant.

Pfft. Exactly. It works both ways. Besides Aren't they the ones always portraying Sakura as selfish, and not caring for others feelings as long as she gets what she wants? That just speaks to me that they don't believe in their arguments for NH they're are just rearranging facts their to their whims so they can protect the happiness of their precious moe goddess. It's not about NH at all. The rapidly biased ones anyway. I acknowledge that not NH fans are like that as you and others have proven. The Neutral ones are kind and respectful.

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 February 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Dalton.T.R]

Someone just said that Sakura knows Hinata loves Naruto and that she wouldn't do that (hurt hinata emotionally) and run into Naruto's arms. But that works both ways if they want to argue that. HINATA Knows that SAKURA loves Naruto, she witnessed it in the hug scene after Pain - and her approving face basically spills out the facts - and she wouldn't hurt either of them like that. Sorry, had to rant.

NaruHina fans will have to learn the hard way I guess...

[redragon88]

So what I take from the previous posts is that both Naruto and Sakura think that they are not good enough for the other one. With Naruto, he thinks that Sakura's happiness only lies with Sasuke so he won't dare make a move. With Sakura, she thinks she doesn't deserve that kind of love out of fear of hurting Naruto, so she clings to her feelings for Sasuke.

Maybe that's why Sasuke is still the one in her mind when it comes to love, just maybe.

[Dalton.T.R]

Warning! Verry long post here. I found it on another debate thread. I didn't write it myself.

I can't believe I'm explaining this, but I might as well. A red herring is a misleading clue. The point of a red herring is to be simple and subtle. For example, Pain being the leader of Akatsuki was a red herring. If NaruSaku is a red herring, it is the most ridiculously overdeveloped red herring ever!

The fact is, neither NaruHina nor NaruSaku is a red herring. Both are relationships that don't seem to have developed to the romantic level on both sides. They can't be red herrings because they don't subtly draw your attention away from the other pairing.


Love doesn't work like that. Realizing how someone else feels about you will not change your own feelings. What will make you fall for or realize you love someone else is discovering something about yourself. Want examples? You got it!


Spoiler:
Chapter 437, page 11


Hinata fell in love with Naruto because Naruto caused her to realize that she could better herself and become stronger.


Spoiler:
Chapter 498 page 15


Kushina realized that her appearance wasn't something she had to be ashamed of.

It doesn't matter than Naruto knows how Hinata feels. That isn't going to change his own feelings. Same goes for Sakura. The only thing that will make her own feelings change is realizing something about herself that she hadn't before. I believe that is highly likely to happen.

Since not one of these characters denied that Sakura loved Naruto. You see, the problem is that it's confirmed that Sakura lied about being over Sasuke, none of them believed that. However, it's not clear if the entire confession was a lie. Now that is just speculation, but you're one who keeps saying that you look at things in a non-bias way. Well, without bias I can say that it wasn't made clear that Sakura doesn't have romantic feelings for Naruto.

So NaruHina will be cannon because of a lack of development. Look, Kishimoto doesn't have to beat us over the head with it. Take Kurenai and Asuma for example. Kishimoto didn't beat us over the head with them having a romantic relationship. Just a hint here and there. With Naruto and Hinata, they hardly have a working relationship of any kind! Here's a wild idea, why not show them actually acting like friends? It makes a lot more sense for friends to end up together than two people who hardly know each other. Let's take the search for Sasuke, when Team 7 and Team 8 worked together. I expected to see something happen between Naruto and Hinata. Nothing major, just an indication that they were closer than they were before. What did we get?


Spoiler:
Chapter 355, page 4


That's all? This is what you think a cannon pairing looks like? Yeah, two people who are close friends and constantly becoming closer, that's not a possible romantic relationship. But this is!? Stop reading your fanfics and try the manga.

Sakura felt bad for Naruto because she hurt him so much. She wanted to make it up to him, but knew that she couldn't. She also knew that the village wanted Sasuke dead, but that Naruto wouldn't agree to it. So, she decided to shoulder the burden herself, to prevent Naruto from having to. She also thought to confess to Naruto in hopes of lessening the pain.

That was her motivation. It was far more complicated that you make it out to be.

For the 7th time I will try to explain this to you. Please Try and Read the Comment in the Data-book:

What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.

The Comment asks what feelings does Sakura harbor towards Naruto and than says, Sakura doesn't know the answer. So are you saying Sakura didn't know she had strong platonic feelings for Naruto before the confession?

Besides that what in the confession confirms that she has found the answer to these feelings? Not once is their a comment in that confession where Sakura indicates that the answer to these feelings is that they are simple platonic.

I'm assuming you guys don't know this:

American Culture Confession = To See how the other person feels
Japanese Culture Confession = Confessing to make your feeling known
American Culture Confession = Expect a response in return
Japanese Culture Confession = Don't necessarily expect a response in return

Another interesting thing about Japanese culture is the way that Sakura treats Naruto, being violent, calling him an idiot, etc... is the traditional japanese way that a girl would treat a boy she likes or her boyfriend. The way Sakura treats Sasuke to indicate she likes him would be considered weird in Japanese culture and not the proper way to address ones feelings as well as potentially a sign that the relationship is doomed.

Simply put if a casual Japanese person read the manga, they would assume from Sakura's actions she has some romantic feelings for Naruto. While they would also assume her romantic relationship with Sasuke is dysfunctional.

I know all this because I'm taking a Japanese Course in college and my teacher is a Japanese women and has explained to us the cultural differences in how Japanese people handle relationships vs how Americans handle relationships.

(I've seen a comment on here saying that "Sakura hits Naruto and doesn't care for him" so, I thought I could point that out.) Oh and sorry for the late reply to that. Real life.


Oh and the very reason I put romantic in quotation marks was to indicate that I'm aware that romance is subjective, and that the romantic development for these two characters was as well. I would argue that the fact that they grew closer, that they became deeper friends, in addition to the fact that Naruto has had a crush on Sakura since among the first chapters of the manga (it was first shown in chapter 3 or 4 I think) can be construed as romantic. Especially since the romantic side of their relationship comes from Naruto, the titular character (if it were the opposite, with the romance originating on Sakura's side rather than Naruto's, I do think the same could still be said; however, I think that as it is there's a stronger argument for it).

But if you want examples of romantic growth, indications of romantic potential. The way Sakura stared (and maybe blushed, don't remember) when Naruto first returned to Konoha, the way she asked him if she seemed more "womanly," the fact that she couldn't get over how much he'd "grown up," the way (as mentioned earlier) she reacted with shock when Yamato hinted at the depth of her feelings for Sakura, hell even after the Pain's invasion, when healing Hinata and thinking "You really love him, don't you?" or whatever, the fact that the image she had of Naruto in her mind was a great, proud, heroic pose. That that's who she saw now when she thought of him. The very fact that she could bring herself to hug Naruto after he returned to the village (Kakashi's reaction to the hug, Kakashi who doesn't show emotions, who perhaps knows Sakura even more than Naruto does, who knows "Sakura and Naruto" as a team, as friends, as a couple/unit more than anyone else).

The fact that she could bring herself to tell Naruto she loves him, even if it was a lie, even if it was to bring him home so he'd stop running after Sasuke, stop endangering himself; remember this is the same girl who when asked what she hates the most in all the world replied with Naruto (yes she was being a silly little brat, but that was her reply, and she was as serious about hating Naruto as she was about "loving" Sasuke back then). All could be seen as Kishi slowly developing the romance on Sakura's side. Because as of now, even after the confession, there's not need to develop Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura, his feelings for Sakura have been established.

We can't say that Sakura agrees with Naruto's opinion of her feelings, her rawest moment of the whole confession was when Naruto presumed to know what Sakura felt over herself; she reacted quickly, suddenly, and with anger. Why anger? Many possibilities, the most probable (IMO) being that she's angry that someone's claiming to know her feelings when she herself does not.

Lee's reaction, his anger, can't be said to definitely mean that he thinks Sakura's lying. In fact, is the hardest to read (other than Kakashi who'll I'll address later), it can easily be said that his anger/shock is a result of the fact that Sakura made a love confession to anyone but himself. He still has a think for Sakura.

Kiba's reaction, seems to be confusion as well as a moment of realization. He seemed to observe Sakura the most during their travels, he seemed the most concerned and confused by how quiet Sakura was (which makes complete sense considering Kiba has known Sakura the longest among him, Sai and Lee).

Sai himself said that Sakura loves Sasuke, so we do know that he thinks that her confession is partially or totally fake. But he's also aware of Sakura's feelings for Naruto, he is aware of how protective Sakura and Naruto are and can be of each other, if not he would not have gone to Sakura with his concerns about Naruto earlier. (I think the way Sai interacts with Sakura and Naruto, as if they are his family unit, the ties the bind, the ppl he learns emotions from, the mommy and daddy-not indicating romance- is incredibly interesting, actually).

Yamato's reaction is definitely anger, he wants to stop Sakura, he doesn't like that Sakura is using and manipulating Naruto. But it also must be considered that at this point, Yamato has bonded with Naruto to a far greater extent than he has with Sakura. He was brought on as Kakashi's temporary replacement because of his powers over Kyuubi, he has helped train Naruto, has even performed a combination jutsu with Naruto. Yamato is to Naruto, as Shizune is to Sakura, meaning just like Shizune has a Sakura bias, knows Sakura's abilities, and is willing to give Sakura a greater benefit of the doubt than she is Naruto, Yamato would do the same for Naruot over Sakura.

Kakashi is the most difficult to decipher in this moment for the very reason that he does not show emotion, and does not say much. He prevents Yamato from budding in, so obviously thinks that Sakura deserves the opportunity to speak (but of course that's a result of the fact that Kakashi is probably equally loyal to Sakura as he is to Naruto since they're both his students/soldiers, and he has watched them both grow). The only thing he says is "Sakura, you..." which could be accusatory, or could be sympathetic. The issue is, since he doesn't show emotions, since there aren't other captions to indicate what he's thinking, it's hard to decipher what his "tone" could have been at that moment. So we have to jump forward a few chapters, and in his next chapters with Sakura he apologizes to her, for placing this burden on her (and Naruto's) shoulders (well before that he indicates that he's proud that Sakura could one shot Kiba, Lee and Sai anyway...) indicating that his thought in the earlier chapter would probably have been more sympathetic than accusatory (though it's probably a mixture).

Having said that, this does not indicate what he thinks of the confession, his opinion of it (which is interesting, and unsurprising since his actual reaction to the validity of the "confession" is probably the most important -yes moreso than even Naruto or Sakura's- because it can be argued that he's been watching them, observing them, watching them grow from a closer and more objective angle than anyone else). But as previously mentioned, he who never shows emotions, was unable to control his reaction to Sakura hugging Naruto, indicating a possible change, indicating that was a significant moment in regards to Naruto and Sakura's relationship.



(Note: This post wasn't exactly for the person above me, but for the posts I've read so far. Yes, and I have to agree with you, this is a pretty huge post. I just get 'angry' when people ignore my post/s.. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.. But, yup)

[CloudMountainJuror]

Thanks for reposting that, Dalton. I found it...interesting. Although it was kind of hard to tell which pairing he was supporting (NS or NH).

[Dalton.T.R]

Thanks for reposting that, Dalton. I found it...interesting. Although it was kind of hard to tell which pairing he was supporting (NS or NH).

Uh, actualy he dosen't support any couple. Though he has told me he is starting to *cough* hate *cough* NH fans because of the excuses they use. And I personaly don't blame'em. Some of the NH fans on that thread are...*ahem* stupid. Sorry, but I really couldn't think of a better word. Not to mention saying SasuSaku is kind of a joke now. I'm re-watching part one completely, and the only "love" I'm seeing from Sakura towards Sasuka is total fangirlism. But anyways, this guy is nuetral in pairing wars...or so he claims. I swear though he's turning towards NS. Not that that's a bad thing

[CloudMountainJuror]

Uh, actualy he dosen't support any couple. Though he has told me he is starting to *cough* hate *cough* NH fans because of the excuses they use. And I personaly don't blame'em. Some of the NH fans on that thread are...*ahem* stupid. Sorry, but I really couldn't think of a better word. Not to mention saying SasuSaku is kind of a joke now. I'm re-watching part one completely, and the only "love" I'm seeing from Sakura towards Sasuka is total fangirlism. But anyways, this guy is nuetral in pairing wars...or so he claims. I swear though he's turning towards NS. Not that that's a bad thing

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[Dalton.T.R]

Sure thing

[redragon88]

Uh, actualy he dosen't support any couple. Though he has told me he is starting to *cough* hate *cough* NH fans because of the excuses they use. And I personaly don't blame'em. Some of the NH fans on that thread are...*ahem* stupid. Sorry, but I really couldn't think of a better word. Not to mention saying SasuSaku is kind of a joke now. I'm re-watching part one completely, and the only "love" I'm seeing from Sakura towards Sasuka is total fangirlism. But anyways, this guy is nuetral in pairing wars...or so he claims. I swear though he's turning towards NS. Not that that's a bad thing

NaruSaku is kind of ironic isn't it? It seem that the reason Naruto and Sakura progress so slowly romantically is because of how protective and caring each is of the other one's feelings.

[Dragunov]

So, what kind of development can we look forward to, if any, this year?

[Phantom_999]

NaruSaku is kind of ironic isn't it? It seem that the reason Naruto and Sakura progress so slowly romantically is because of how protective and caring each is of the other one's feelings.

Cause Kishimoto said he wasn' that good at writing romance. But gotta hand it to him He makes it a heck of a lot realistic

So, what kind of development can we look forward to, if any, this year?

Can't say. He wouldn't tell us. Although granted any pairing hints he would give will just cause ultrasonic outrage from other shipping fans anyway.

[CloudMountainJuror]

So, what kind of development can we look forward to, if any, this year?

I'm... Not sure, really. There has to be some, though.