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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#8181 Psychox

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:54 PM

 

Well... Could you also give me that raw page but I don't think that it will change anything. I think that raw text is 100% accurate (I don't want to believe that they could change the original sentences LOL).

It's just to that part where he explained the jap grammar, word for word, when I was talking about the "he's reading too much between the lines". His/Her explanation is right but still I think that making some logical analysis of each jap sentences doesn't change that fact that their ownes theories are valid or not.
When I see this kinda logical analysis of jap sentences I lol a little, even though I'm glad to see people who are persevering so much in order to try to find some clues in each word. If we were here to analyze each words of all chapters, we will go out crazy...

SS fans love to make this sorta logical analyzes.... For example, some of them loves to say that Sasuke, every time he sees Sakura, always says "サクラか....." (Sakura, uh.......?). They believe that the fact that he always says that is not accidental and shows that he has some sort of repressed feelings towards her. But I say, this kinda sentences.... you can find them a lot in the manga.

Sorry for the small lap^^


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#8182 Chatte

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

 

Well... Could you also give me that raw page but I don't think that it will change anything. I think that raw text is 100% accurate (I don't want to believe that they could change the original sentences LOL).

It's just to that part where he explained the jap grammar, word for word, when I was talking about the "he's reading too much between the lines". His/Her explanation is right but still I think that making some logical analysis of each jap sentences doesn't change that fact that their ownes theories are valid or not.
When I see this kinda logical analysis of jap sentences I lol a little, even though I'm glad to see people who are persevering so much in order to try to find some clues in each word. If we were here to analyze each words of all chapters, we will go out crazy...

SS fans love to make this sorta logical analyzes.... For example, some of them loves to say that Sasuke, every time he sees Sakura, always says "サクラか....." (Sakura, uh.......?). They believe that the fact that he always says that is not accidental and shows that he has some sort of repressed feelings towards her. But I say, this kinda sentences.... you can find them a lot in the manga.

Sorry for the small lap^^

Oh, I see. Thanks for the input, nevertheless.


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#8183 megi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

Well I have the Japanese books, but I don't know what question is being asked haha?

Also, I think Naruto's line in 615 is confused with Hinata's line in 633, where she wants to "always" have been by his side. And the line is the same in the volume. It did not change.

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#8184 Paptala

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

^Chatte's question was about Shikamaru's line to Sakura in chapter 183 (if I'm understanding correctly), where (in the English version) he tells Sakura, "So even you couldn't stop him," referring to Sasuke leaving to join Orochimaru.  This takes place right before Naruto makes the Promise of a Lifetime to Sakura.


Edited by Paptala, 16 September 2013 - 02:17 PM.

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#8185 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:40 PM

I just dont like how Hinata didn't give a f**** for Neji's death :( i mean come on Neji was one of my favorite characters (next to Sasuke of course :D)

 

Hinata: Naruto's big hand.... XD i died from laughing

 

That's certainly not how I remember it. The tears streaming down her face were certainly not fake, for crying out loud (pun not intended), she pulled herself together in order to help Naruto do the same, and her whole speech was reiterating what Neji said in his dying words.

I don't like the hand comment either, but I think people are really quick to take it negatively, what she meant was just what she said, it made her feels safe in all the chaos. It's not like she went "OMG, I'm holding Naruto-kun's hand!"

Honestly, sometimes it seems like this fandom treats Hinata as bad as the other side treats Sakura, twisting things around to make the other look bad.



#8186 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:48 PM

Hinata wasn't that bad, though the rebound timing was a bit odd. It did come off like "brush aside" rather than show full attention. The least she could have done is say something about Neji mixing up with her moment with hand grab. I guess that's why there were many fanarts that joked about that scene.



#8187 Chatte

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:03 PM

^Chatte's question was about Shikamaru's line to Sakura in chapter 183 (if I'm understanding correctly), where (in the English version) he tells Sakura, "So even you couldn't stop him," referring to Sasuke leaving to join Orochimaru.  This takes place right before Naruto makes the Promise of a Lifetime to Sakura.

Yes yes, that was. Sorry for replying late. I was stuck on the other thread, lol.


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#8188 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:13 PM

Yes yes, that was. Sorry for replying late. I was stuck on the other thread, lol.

I'm going to read your post now.



#8189 Chatte

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:14 PM

I'm going to read your post now.

Should I prepare for a LAP? :D

Not that I mind. :P


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#8190 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

Should I prepare for a LAP? :D

Not that I mind. :P

By all means. I am ready for one. :D



#8191 Chatte

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:27 PM

By all means. I am ready for one. :D

Oh, lol. I was referring if I should prepare for a LAP from you, lol.
Sorry to not be specific. :P


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#8192 Slextrem

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

I've started my annual reading of my most favorite manga, and I just noticed how similar Naruto and Sakura are to these two:

 

HanaYoriDango_zps67d4debe.jpg

 

HanaYoriDango2_zps770064ab.jpg

 

Does anyone remember Domyouji Tsukasa and Makino Tsukushi from Hana Yori Dango? :lol:  A hot-tempered heroine paired with an idiot that's head over heels for her. She also starts out with a crush on his best friend who is described as a very stoic and cool kind of guy. The only major difference is that Tsukasa is a lot more violent and short tempered than Naruto, and I mean a lot. That being said, it is a much older manga and tends to place the characters in overly dramatic situations.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to share my observation~



#8193 Hanabi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

 ^ didnt read the original manga, but i loved the taiwan / korean live drama adaptations :wub: I was so sad when she didnt end up with the nicer cool guy, thou it was inevitable and very obvious that she's going to end up with tsukasa.


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#8194 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

 

That's certainly not how I remember it. The tears streaming down her face were certainly not fake, for crying out loud (pun not intended), she pulled herself together in order to help Naruto do the same, and her whole speech was reiterating what Neji said in his dying words.

I don't like the hand comment either, but I think people are really quick to take it negatively, what she meant was just what she said, it made her feels safe in all the chaos. It's not like she went "OMG, I'm holding Naruto-kun's hand!"

Honestly, sometimes it seems like this fandom treats Hinata as bad as the other side treats Sakura, twisting things around to make the other look bad.

We all know that she cried for his death and all but Neji's death had way more impact on Naruto than Hinata, which is a problem since he's supposed to be her cousin.

This is the reason why her speech is ridiculous, how could she made that without development or worse how could she endure his death more than Naruto?
the answer leads to the fact that Neji is not important to Hinata and all, ofc she cried but it's comparable to Chyoba's death to Naruto or Sakura, where they cried but didnt have any impact to a point that they start wondering about certain things.

 

I just cant accept it, it's ridiculous for Hinata to get the same development that the team 10 had with only Naruto telling her that she's strong.

The handholding was a mere infatuation but she forgot about Neji quickly there when Naruto was thanking Neji on his thoughts.

When later Lee was crying hard for Neji you can compare with Hinata's (doesnt get even close), and even there she didnt even voiced her opinion or give a speech it was Naruto who give the speech, i sincerely on 615 i dont know wtf happened there, it was forced and ridiculous(yeah i said ridiculous again).

 

Naruto and Lee suffered the most with Neji's death while Hinata didnt get the same thing she just cried then later give a speech and then shows indiference.

 

Also just to reinterate i'll end up with  quick quesiton, why Hinata cant affect other characters?

I mean she pulled herself to do that speech to Naruto but why she could not do the same for Lee who was suffering worse than Naruto?

Sasuke goes back she doesnt voice her opinion on the matter, even Shino talked there saying he doesnt acknowledge Sasuke.

This is the problem with her character, if you compare to Sakura, okay we see her healing Naruto on a similar case but Naruto wasnt wavering but the alliance and she did a speech and boasted up the morale of the alliance army even Hinata's then we got a problem because even Hinata was wavering, this is the problem, i just doesnt understand those moments, i dont understand how she shows maturity and strenght when Naruto is wavering but when she has to do things on her own she goes back and made look like those things didnt happened.
It's like 615 didnt even count for Hinata's development, it's weird and confusing.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 September 2013 - 04:17 PM.

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#8195 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:02 PM

Oh, lol. I was referring if I should prepare for a LAP from you, lol.
Sorry to not be specific. :P

Oh ok. Lol. Yeah, be prepared.



#8196 Hanabi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

road to ninja poster

does anybody know what sai's notebook say about sakura? i only understand the kanji "it's a pity / too bad"


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#8197 Inferno180

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:43 PM

I still get a laugh out of the pairings websites that show all the pairings that display them, yet its funny how there is always this sense of downplaying or censoring NaruSaku.

 

I find the notion that "more screentime and focus = more importance = more development and long running" is still highly brushed aside and its funny to me that some still treat NS like this. I mean thats the basic thing separating NS from the others.

 

SS has been shown on Sakura a lot and to a smaller degree Naruto for the aspects of how he feels to her, mainly the promise. But its always been on sorrow and negative lights, never really advancing anywhere.

 

NH has been shown mostly on Hinata, hardly anything in return from Naruto exists. Even then its gone unused and unaddressed for so long, its just too many plot points and opportunities have passed. If NH went canon, she would sadly have been reduced to a stock love fodder token character. Lets leave the aspects of her trying to become self confident behind.

 

NS though, I mean come on, there have been many scenes, many many from one of them and some of them apart from comical have focused on more serious sides like the 4 tails event, 457, the hug. Now with 631 too invoking Naruto's feelings remain unchanged towards her and the whole NS-MK similarities that tend to run parallel (due to the early interactions). What more is there? This is just all from the manga too.

 

I find it hard to even imagine SS going canon just spontaneously and having Sakura remain static in one of her biggest traits and never changing only cause she held out hope, not to mention how is Sasuke obliged to love her? He doesn't need love, rather the only case of love for his character has been the familial or brotherhood one. As simple friendship, Sasuke's character is more involved with a sense of belonging who is his new family (like Naruto), but this ship is prone to cracking now because since Sakura is starting to show signs of not trusting him, Sakura may finally start growing out of her old views towards him. NH as well, I'm sure we all know the arguments of how Sakura is showing a childish crush, isn't it kinda funny how Hinata has been the one dragging out the one person mentality? Sakura at least saw flaws with Sasuke and only gained better outlooks about Naruto, but has the one with Hinata really shifted all that much? NH just had the potential but its far too late now. Many times Sakura was used, HInata was also acceptable. But Kishi kept focusing on Naruto and Sakura interaction. Even giving us an answer to both Naruto still loving Sakura and even Sakura getting development from her land of iron events, her events from there led to the 630 speech. Hinata from pain still has nothing addressed aside from a simple short flashback nothing else, not even 615 was thought on by Naruto, only Hinata (for a chapter like 633, that one honestly felt like the biggest sense of filler cause after that we don't get any attention save for team 7). 615 was more Hinata centric if anything, its just if Naruto didn't turn there then what else is there for NH? Its has these problems to contend with right now: the focus goes away from NH for many chapters, sometimes 50+, the moments just seem out of place for the main flow or plot at hand, the opportunity to expand on these events is largely unaddressed or left unattended, many plot elements that need answering are missing for these moments and people expect them to just suddenly happen, the notion of parallels adding more emphasis on other story elements (like team 7 to the sannin, Naruto and Sasuke to Hashirama and Madara) there is nothing of notable relation of NH on anything towards anything else, least NS has a small connection to MK, Sakura is still the only girl compared canonically to Kushina, until anything else comes up Sakura=Kushina is uncontested, it doesn't matter how much people cry over it, Kushina's foreshadow was an obvious plot point, she said to find a girl like her, NOT GIRL LIKE MINATO, If no girl aside from Sakura=Kushina at any point forward, what are we honestly looking for then? Not to mention another issue with 631, he still confirmed that he practically likes Sakura. If he really considers Sakura his girlfriend then what else should we go on cause NH isn't getting much attention. Hinata had her time and was then given a short sequence of achieving a power Neji had for years and then became a pair of binoculars for Sakura. NH has too many issues past and present, I mean now look at the story, the ten tails final form has been revealed. This fight is about to end (possibly start another), Sakura isn't trusting Sasuke, obviously the final conflict of Naruto and Sasuke would also include Sakura interaction and yes she would feel highly concerned over losing Naruto (the land of iron reunion made this clear, she would be upset over the notion of losing either of them), there is just too much.

 

NS has all the stuff the others don't, development, growth, parallel support, it freaking started as a one sided relationship but now Sakura highly cares for Naruto, a lot. Haters can claim this stuff anyway on any site. Sakura cares a lot for Naruto and Naruto showing he still loves her, well ever since 631 came the notion of NS should at least stand as a high possiblity to others to even just consider, I mean Kushina's background and early interaction with Minato, Minato's input from 631, Sakura starting to not trust Sasuke, that should stand as reason enough that things are possibly swinging towards a NS ending. Naruto never said he was outright over Sakura or showed that didn't he? If he still views her the same way and Hinata no different, if he really considers Sakura his girlfriend (even as humor in front of his dad) why would kishi even need to write it like that? He could have put HInata there, saved the Kushina stuff till later, or even ignored it fully. But oh hey its a trolling thing right? NS is a red herring? Yeah NH and SS would look much worse by that statement, why build and focus so much on something only to have a convientnt "side development" take centerplace after everything? I'm honestly suprised fans who claimed NS dead after 469 never considered "well if its over, why isn't kishi actually focusing on the NH deal? Why didn't he at least give more notion? Why even a filler of Naruto claiming he still loves Sakura and nothing anime or manga wise in the space between 469 and 631 showing him as no longer caring for Sakura?" "Why put that stuff from 631 there?" "What about Sakura's development? Surely she has more than just Sasuke on her mind, she still focuses much more on Naruto than Sasuke given the "pure love of SS." All these claims really just hilariously fall back to the main point of Naruto's character, he never gives up we all expect him to succeed in his goals, yet when it comes to pairings we expect the opposite, him to give up on the girl he loved the longest time and just settle on another out of completely convenience without much regard to the story? :headscratch:  Yeah that makes perfect sense, he succeeds in everything save the love he originally sought in the first place. :err: Thats just stupid.

 

NS has all the elements laid out, kishi can bring it forward in many ways, Naruto's unchanged, Sakura is changing her view on Sasuke and she cares a lot for Naruto and her involvement with him isn't even close to done, it will end around the Naruto vs Sasuke fight before or after it during the finale. NS has had a lot of development, interaction, growth, parallelism support (this is a bonus), its only going to move forward, if a forehead moment comes up I know we won't be surprised. NS has been dynamic, they have been through the ups and downs, done selfless action for one another, been impacted and impacted by each other in both positive and negative ways, yet they always come out as the best of friends, they have the potential to become more than friends. Kishi can bring it all forward when the time is right, this stuff can occur anytime after the current fight. I find it great how during one chapter of pausing the fight (631) he still gave NS the attention to just build on what was able to be seen (save Sakura revealing she had a powerup that was mostly a surprise but it had been hinted a couple times in the story) yet NH still faded to the back and SS is cracking hard. 631 gave us our answer, Sakura is like Kushina and Naruto still views her the same way, if he likes the idea of her as his girlfriend then thats enough in my book.  If people want a clearer answer then they shouldn't be surprised when Naruto reveals he still loves her. The manga and the anime even have shown he still didn't change his feelings for her. If he didn't change in 615 and remained Sakura loving in 631, thats a good indicator of where things can go (also considering this in line with Minatos statement of Sakura) :thumb:

 

NS has a lot to come forward, there's a lot of evidence for it and the plot really has more to support it. NS has been through a lot but its got a great amount of potential to be the canon pairing. A lot of evidence is pointing to NS and not the others, rather only adding more obstacles for them to overcome but its just getting harder for them. Naruto and Sakura isn't canon yet but a lot of stuff is hinting it can come, this is just plain clear manga evidence spread out over the majority of the story. If 631 a late chapter like that didn't leave enough of a mark, I don't know what will Naruto still loving Sakura and how Sakura is changing from Sasuke is another big thing too. NS can happen, Naruto loves Sakura still  and Sakura at this point couldn't bear losing Naruto. Its just got a lot of poential Sakura could look at Naruto in a new way soon. Its not insane, its just character development yet people will call it instanity or kishi being a bad writier. NaruSaku has a lot of evidence and potential, it can all come forward at this point considering what 631 did, so many things towards MK can be connected too. Just the development is enough without the MK parallel. Naruto and Sakura are very close, its just character development for them to end up together. NS has it all, development, interaction, growth, ups and downs, impacts and impacted by each other etc. NS is just one part of the ending and theres a lot showing it at this point.



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#8198 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

Ok, so I want an opinion on something... I recently wrote an analysis involving Shikamaru in the NS/SS romance subplot.

Here it is: http://www.chattesgo...ura-and-naruto/

 

Now, apparently I got a counter argument from someone on Tumblr here: http://baasama.tumbl...-shipper-silent

 

In the said counter, the person posts someone's translation on the line of 'even you could save sasuke' line.

This will be mainly directed at our lovely translators and japanese members.

Could someone explain exactly to me if what the said person is correct in Japanese?

I want to prepare a counteract but not before analyzing everything.

 

Thanks in advance!

Well, I finally done reading and it was a really good read.

 

You do bring a good point with the idea that maybe Sakura could have stopped Sasuke from his pov, but it was only based on the moment, so it's not like he read everything about Sakura, let alone the relationship between them. Sakura knows it best and if she said it was horrible, then it is horrible. I can't be biased here, because the facts are there. Now at that point, everyone in there, including Shikamaru, are established that only Naruto can do this, and no one else. Anyone else will be set to kill, which is currently now. So pretty much, that thought of Sakura being helpful for Sasuke was tossed out after that failed attempt. After all, Shikamaru was learning more and more, including women if I may add. You also bring a good point about the hospital scene because Shikamaru knows at this point their relationship is good, so it was hard for him to watch both of them trying to talk after the mission failed. What I truly like is the way Naruto bounce back to make Sakura come out and smile. Imagine Naruto didn't do anything, her false smile would have been the only smile he would have gotten. But no, he brought the real smile with a real new motivation (going to Tsunade).

 

Now we come to part 2. As I said before, Shikamaru was young back then, so he was learning more and more adult content in the real life and ninja life. Now, it was the time to be realistic about everything and even if it sucks, things are need to be done to prevent bigger problems. Skip to war arc, I like how you mentioned the comparison and yes, again, it's night and day. You know what it is. Sasuke is being the cliche never changed father/uncle/etc coming out from prison character in live shows. What do I mean? Well you know how a father (for example) returns from prison and he tried to recreate the bond with his friends/family, but then you realized it comes with a price (literally or not) and if you don't support, his old times shows? That's Sasuke. He returns, but make everyone uncomfortable though one would try, only to see the real him that brought to the prison to begin with. In other words, Sasuke has done too much to get his respect back and pretty much there's no shortcut, you have to start over. The main problem is Sasuke is not looking for that. So back to the topic, yes, Shikamaru never felt comfortable with Sasuke around, but he played "Everyone is good, so I have to support it" character, but soon, it's time to reveal.

 

In a way, Shikamaru and Sai pretty much are characters that speak for us, especially in this arc. Shikamaru takes our thought that we can't trust Sasuke, he's not good, but we need him for manpower sake. Sai takes our thought that if this what we wanted, if this is good thing to feel uncomfortable with Sasuke around, and is this even worth having him now that we know the feeling. Sakura failed to make Sai feel good about the situation because Sai isn't stupid and he knows that many feels the same way. I mean when you think about it, why did Sai ask Juugo about Sasuke? It's because Sai is not comfortable of Sasuke around. He wanted a comfort, so he asked Sakura, but she failed. So now, what's going to happen? To me, I think Sasuke will lose all trusts except Naruto. Will Naruto lose his trust? No, and that's how Sasuke will come back by starting over. If Naruto lose his trust, then Sasuke is just an empty guy. If there's one thing I learn, a person is truly dead when the world forgot.

 

One last comment is I like you don't really acknowledge that he's a NS shipper or even SS, but you do acknowledge that he respects the bond of NS because it has been an uplifting one. That said you could argue that everyone in Konoha are NS shipper, just not pushing them, just let itself work out. I said this because many have saw their relationship going down as well as the infamous 450. Rock Lee acknowledged in PoaL when Naruto did the cool pose, which by the way Lee did it for Sakura, so he got the idea right there. He's not pushing Naruto, but if he loses, well a worthy winner wins. Simple as that. As for everyone, again, I believe all of them or at least most are NS shippers. You could make a random scenario like:

 

Naruto walking down the village happy.

Villager 1: Hey, Naruto! Looking good today! Meeting that pink-haired girl?

Villager 2: It's young love!

 

It's pretty much like that, but again, we won't get that on panel or anything. But again, at this point, everyone supports NS, romance or not, open or closet. So thank you for that read.

 

Oh, and the translation from another is wrong.



#8199 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:50 PM

We all know that she cried for his death and all but Neji's death had way more impact on Naruto than Hinata, which is a problem since he's supposed to be her cousin.

This is the reason why her speech is ridiculous, how could she made that without development or worse how could she endure his death more than Naruto?
the answer leads to the fact that Neji is not important to Hinata and all, ofc she cried but it's comparable to Chyoba's death to Naruto or Sakura, where they cried but didnt have any impact to a point that they start wondering about certain things.

 

I just cant accept it, it's ridiculous for Hinata to get the same development that the team 10 had with only Naruto telling her that she's strong.

The handholding was a mere infatuation but she forgot about Neji quickly there when Naruto was thanking Neji on his thoughts.

When later Lee was crying hard for Neji you can compare with Hinata's (doesnt get even close), and even there she didnt even voiced her opinion or give a speech it was Naruto who give the speech, i sincerely on 615 i dont know wtf happened there, it was forced and ridiculous(yeah i said ridiculous again).

 

Naruto and Lee suffered the most with Neji's death while Hinata didnt get the same thing she just cried then later give a speech and then shows indiference.

 

Also just to reinterate i'll end up with  quick quesiton, why Hinata cant affect other characters?

I mean she pulled herself to do that speech to Naruto but why she could not do the same for Lee who was suffering worse than Naruto?

Sasuke goes back she doesnt voice her opinion on the matter, even Shino talked there saying he doesnt acknowledge Sasuke.

This is the problem with her character, if you compare to Sakura, okay we see her healing Naruto on a similar case but Naruto wasnt wavering but the alliance and she did a speech and boasted up the morale of the alliance army even Hinata's then we got a problem because even Hinata was wavering, this is the problem, i just doesnt understand those moments, i dont understand how she shows maturity and strenght when Naruto is wavering but when she has to do things on her own she goes back and made look like those things didnt happened.
It's like 615 didnt even count for Hinata's development, it's weird and confusing.

 

I don't really want to go on and on debating this when I think we'll both just end up saying pretty much the same thing, so I'm just going say I wasn't intending to play Hinata's advocate. I'm mostly indifferent to the character, she had potential that was never realized and now she's just kinda 'meh'. And for the record, I didn't like 615 either, actually chapters 614-617 leave a sour taste in my mouth, they where haphazard and poorly executed, I was only trying to set straight what I saw as an unfair misinterpretation of Hinata's actions.

 

And my answer to your question is simply that Hinata's character exists around Naruto, and for that reason she is severely limited in her ability to affect other characters. The speech in 615 wasn't about Naruto's development at all (it better not have been, since his character was trashed in that chapter), it was about Hinata's and showing that she could be strong for her hero who gave her the confidence to improve herself. She doesn't have anything to do with Lee or Sasuke and she couldn't have given speech like Sakura's to boost the entire alliance's morale, because Sakura ability to affect other characters is broader.


Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 16 September 2013 - 07:24 PM.


#8200 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:15 PM

Say How much of this information is true http://tvtropes.org/...rOurShip/Naruto and this http://tvtropes.org/...t/AnimeAndManga?






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