1001 replies to this topic

[The Tax-Man]

I get that people have different emotions than me towards characters and try to see the realism of a lot of details. I completely understand why you do so, but honestly if I tried to apply real life morality to this manga I would probably have a constant headache. We could easily begin with how adults constantly train young kids in order to become child soldiers. That's not right in any form.

I'm not mentioning this because I think you guys are wrong in thinking how you think, just trying to give you perspective as to why I don't bother applying realistic thinking for the realm of fiction.

Naruto is not the first fictional work to blur the lines of morality, and certainly won't be the last.

@xxRomanceGirlxx

I do hope you're aware that I've expressed my liking of SK for many months now. So I don't want you to go thinking I'm one of those who suddenly became one because of this chapter.

And as I've said before, I don't just side ship. I like how Karin can retain her hot temper with Sasuke, that's not something you can say about Sakura or Ino. If I just side shipped I would want two characters to be together even if I didn't like them being together, that's what side ship is. But I do enjoy the interactions between Sasuke and Karin (in addition to other hints) and therefore indulge in the idea of their relationship.

This is side shipping: "Sasuke sucks, just pair him up with that horrible b*tch Karin so they don't bother my perfect Naruto and Sakura."

This is me: "I like how Sasuke and Karin interact, and I love how Naruto and Sakura interact. It's great how it would all fit together."

@Nate River

About Karin being angry when she get close to Sasuke, it's all about the wording she uses. In the original japanese she changes it from the standard into one that is meant to express anger. And the heart thing is because she still likes him. The point being that she likes him, so she cooperates, but what he did was still hurtful, therefore she remains pissed.

I understand that it doesn't change your opinion whatsoever about Karin, I really do. I'm not trying to change your mind about Karin, I just want you to at least see how she's truly acting. Do you think Sasuke would've made that scared face if Karin was simply being lovey-dovey?
@The Tax-Man

Karin can detect lies. I think you're trying a little too hard to rationalize her not doing so.

If other sensors can't do it then that's their problem. Karin said that lies show up on charkra flow and that she can see that flow, hence she can notice if a person lies. It's not really rocket science man.

It's one of the days you're missing the point, I'm afraid. We KNOW she's pissed at him. The problem is not that. The problem is that she likes him at all. And the fact that she STILL makes close physical contact with him even if she's pissed. My problem is how poorly that reflects on her character. Let's be honest. In the beginning, she only existed to reflect on Team 7. But then she got a real personality. I have a problem with her losing all that depth. You can't say don't apply real life morality to this manga. That is a huge cop out IMO. Some things, I understand are different. But they are still human and no human in their right mind would ever do this.

When I said shipper googles, this is exactly what I meant. Oh, nice, you're pissed at him. Why the hell do you still love him and why the hell are you anywhere near him? Dude you just seem to be ignoring the main point people have and nitpicking on kitten that doesn't matter.

I'll give you the sensor thing, though. I was just hypothesizing. *shrug*

Edited by The Tax-Man, 16 April 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[redragon88]

It's one of the days you're missing the point, I'm afraid. We KNOW she's pissed at him. The problem is not that. The problem is that she likes hina at all. And the fact that she STILL makes close physical contact with him even if she's pissed. My problem is his poorly that reflects on her character. Let's be honest. In the beginning, she only existed to reflect on Team 7. But then she got a real personality. I have a problem with her losing all that depth.

When I said shipper googles, this is exactly what I meant. Oh, nice, you're pissed at him. Why the hell do you still love him and why the hell are you anywhere near him? Dude you just seem to be ignoring the main point people have and nitpicking on kitten that doesn't matter.

I'll give you the sensor thing, though. I was just hypothesizing. *shrug*

And I explained in my previous posts that I understand why people would be angry at Karin and the SasuKarin relationship in general. I'm not here to change people's minds about the matter. I'm just expressing my point of view on it all.

It basically amounts to them being fictional characters, therefore I don't really care much for what transpired. I completely understand that people want more out of them, it's completely reasonable, I just don't feel that strongly about it. It's as simple as that.

I'm not nitpicking on anything I'm just explaining the facts, but people are within their right to say that this development is not enough. I just don't want people to hate on them for the wrong reasons. I don't want people to say "Sasuke wasn't honest!" or "Karin has no anger left!", as an excuse to hate. I want people to hate on the pairing for the right reasons and not based on fake excuses.

[The Tax-Man]

And I explained in my previous posts that I understand why people would be angry at Karin and the SasuKarin relationship in general. I'm not here to change people's minds about the matter. I'm just expressing my point of view on it all.

It basically amounts to them being fictional characters, therefore I don't really care much for what transpired. I completely understand that people want more out of them, it's completely reasonable, I just don't feel that strongly about it. It's as simple as that.

I'm not nitpicking on anything I'm just explaining the facts, but people are within their right to say that this development is not enough. I just don't want people to hate on them for the wrong reasons. I don't want people to say "Sasuke wasn't honest!" or "Karin has no anger left!", as an excuse to hate. I want people to hate on the pairing for the right reasons and not based on fake excuses.

Fair enough. But if these are not the right reasons, what are? The exact reason their relationship sucks is because it is based on nothing. What real reason does Karin have for liking him? What real reason does he have to sincerely apologize. All good relationships in manga are made using development, not by asserting that they exist. Kishimoto can shove their relationship in our faces. Sill doesn't make it make any sense at all. You have a laid back approach that just accepts it for what it is. I can respect that since I normally do that as well. But still. What other reasons could you possibly want to hate this relationship? I just want it to be developed more, because I know it will be canon by the end seeing where this is going.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 16 April 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[redragon88]

Fair enough. But if these are not the right reasons, what are? The exact reason their relationship sucks is because it is based on nothing. What real reason does Karin have for liking him? What real reason does he have to sincerely apologize. All good relationships in manga are made using development, not by asserting that they exist. Kishimoto can shove their relationship in our faces. Sill doesn't make it make any sense at all. You have a laid back approach that just accepts it for what it is. I can respect that since I normally do that as well. But still. What other reasons could you possibly want to hate this relationship? I just want it to be developed more, because I know it will be canon by the end seeing where this is going.

Wrong reason to hate SK: "Sasuke wasn't honest at all. He just apologized to shut Karin up!"
Right reason to hate SK: "Sasuke genuinely apologized and feels bad for what he did, but his actions merit more judgment than what Kishi allowed!"

Wrong reason to hate SK: "Karin just instantly forgot what he did and now became a super fangirl that worships the ground Sasuke walks!"
Right reason to hate SK: "Karin might still be angry, but she shouldn't be touched at all by Sasuke's apology. She should look at him with scorn!"

You see the difference?

As for what their relationship is based on, well, remember that we had that flashback of Sasuke rescuing Karin as kids in the chunin exam. The purpose of that flashback was to show that Karin's love for Sasuke had more depth than what we were lead to believe. It shows that Karin fell in love with him thanks to saving her and how he smiled at her. That's why her last thoughts as she was about to die were "I just wanted to see that smile one more time."

SasuKarin does have base, but of course that doesn't mean it would be properly developed. The merit of the pairing goes to the individual fan. I'm fine with how it's going, but I accept that people wanted more for it. I do think we'll get more in the future, but what's done is done and I don't have any qualms about it.

Edited by redragon88, 16 April 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[The Tax-Man]

Wrong reason to hate SK: "Sasuke wasn't honest at all. He just apologized to shut Karin up!"
Right reason to hate SK: "Sasuke genuinely apologized and feels bad for what he did, but his actions merit more judgment than what Kishi allowed!"

Wrong reason to hate SK: "Karin just instantly forgot what he did and now became a super fangirl that worships the ground Sasuke walks!"
Right reason to hate SK: "Karin might still be angry, but she shouldn't be touched at all by Sasuke's apology. She should look at him with scorn!"

You see the difference?

As for what their relationship is based on, well, remember that we had that flashback of Sasuke rescuing Karin as kids in the chunin exam. The purpose of that flashback was to show that Karin's love for Sasuke had more depth than what we were lead to believe. It shows that Karin fell in love with him thanks to saving her and how he smiled at her. That's why her last thoughts as she was about to die were "I just wanted to see that smile one more time."

SasuKarin does have base, but of course that doesn't mean it would be properly developed. The merit of the pairing goes to the individual fan. I'm fine with how it's going, but I accept that people wanted more for it. I do think we'll get more in the future, but what's done is done and I don't have any qualms about it.

See, that is exactly what I'm saying. I have the reasons you said are 'right'. So that's that.

As for their relationship, saving her once back then does not justify this level of devotion. Development is the word. Without it, this whole story is a messy clusterkitten. Without it, Hinata has better reasons than Karin for loving Naruto. Without it, you can call what Karin has 'love'. No, it's not kittening love. It's some weird devotion that has no big reason to exist.

One last thing. You're happy with SasuKarin because just because. It's there, so lets move on. No, I personally am not fine with accepting things like these. What's done is not done. If there is to be a meaningful relation, you must have a meaningful reason and path. This relationship completely destroys the themes of the manga with what it is now, inadvertently or not. That thematic hole that could be is my problem.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 16 April 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[redragon88]

See, that is exactly what I'm saying. I have the reasons you said are 'right'. So that's that.

As for their relationship, saving her once say back then does not justify this level of devotion. Development is the word. Without it, this whole story is a messy clusterkitten. That is all.

Then I'm glad that you hate SK for the right reasons.

As for the development, I get why you would feel that way, it's completely reasonable, but I just can't bring myself to care. I just can't. That's just me, it's all just fine with me.

[Tokura Misaki]

I smell pairing war here... I know there are some NS/SK fans out here but for those who hate SK, please show respect to others.


I like SasuKarin as well because of their chemistry. I'm not saying for the sake of our NaruSaku. Since chapter 627, I started to like Sasuke (and SasuKarin even more) due to his redemption. SasSak doesn't bother to me anymore.

I hope no more disappointments here.

[The Tax-Man]

I smell pairing war here... I know there are some NS/SK fans out here but for those who hate SK, please show respect to others.


I like SasuKarin as well because of their chemistry. I'm not saying for the sake of our NaruSaku. Since chapter 627, I started to like Sasuke (and SasuKarin even more) due to his redemption. SasSak doesn't bother to me anymore.

I hope no more disappointments here.

Yeah. Respect is important. But you can't start a discussion and stop in the middle because people express why they think. No one degenerated this to name calling, and that's a good thing for now.

[Nate River]

Just to clarify, my earlier posts were about trying to understand the shock and uproar of some fans over Karin going back to Sasuke. I was talking strictly about the "OMG Karin's character is ruined" argument, not the "Kishimoto is sloppy for doing this in this way" argument.

From what I can see, Karin's character has never had any purpose in the story other than to be the girl on Not Team 7, and to serve, glorify, and love Sasuke -- maybe love Sasuke more for who and what he really is than anyone else. And that's it. That's her purpose -- so far, at least, although it's a little late to make her into anything else now. (There's still the unfortunate contrivance of her being an Uzumaki.)

So why is it so surprising that Kishimoto would not suddenly develop her into a shining example of mental health, or even treat her reunion with Sasuke very seriously? I'm not convinced Karin will affect the story a lot -- other than that she may end up an Uzumaki at Sasuke's side.

I only meant that if Kishimoto were going for something like that then I'd take back what I said about it being sloppy.

She was used as his initial forey into evil and that was it. I am surprised? I suppose I shouldn't be. What he did was so cold that I expected a little bit more, I guess. It was a big deal when he did it and it seems lacking that it's quickly moped up in a half-comedic moment.

I still feel I have to hand wave so hard at this that I might as well be leading a parade.

Beyond that, the Sasuke/Karin reunion and the way it was executed makes little difference to me. I agree Kishimoto isn't taking much care with the whole thing, but since I don't care much for Sasuke anyway....

I do agree this chapter seemed to have a rushed and false ring to it. Was Kishimoto just sloppy? It's possible. But maybe the crap that happened in #627 really doesn't matter much to the overall story. There's no way to know for sure until the end.

This is why I have trouble believing that she's really planning something in secret and that'll well get something more next chapter that make this look better than it is. They way it was handled exemplifies, for me, that she is a side character and he was doing this as a check-the-box thing so he could move on to something else.

I get what you're saying about the "why," and maybe it's related to my professional experience, but this is really hard to swallow in the manner that he's playing it.

It probably doesn't matter in the long run, but details like this are important to me. We are being asked to accept this a resolution for him nearly offing a hostage in a moment specifically designed to show his descent at the time. In addition Kishimoto focuses on concepts like hate, forgiveness, redemption, and revenge, all of which are all over this particular incident. I don't feel it's too much to ask to spend more time on it when many of the concepts that are at the core of this story and they we're supposed to take from the Naruto-Sasuke conflict are present in this too.

[StriderC]

I said NS fans are going to start feeling uncomfortable around each other since no one here likes it when other bash NS, I suppose it will be the same for those who like SK and hearing those harsh words from another NS fan.

That's way I gave them the link and also told them that many here dislike the pairing so just like many uncomfortable with NH and SS, they will also feel uncomfortable about SK creating harsh word towards that pairing something their sympathizer would not take lightly all the times.

So please don't try to twist my word, what I'm trying to avoid is discomfort among NS fans and a little consideration from SK fans.

I'm not trying to do kitten, and as I've said in my earlier post, I was TRYING to understand what you were saying. I made that clear in the first sentence. Again, why in the world would SK fans feel uncomfortable UNLESS you're purposely saying kitten that's negative/bashing their ship? Some of the fans are both NS, SK fans and if they want to talk about it here, they're very well free to. The double standard is hilarious actually IMO. I don't know why you'd or anyone who feel uncomfortable when an SK fan talks about SK? It's ridiculous.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I personally ship SK, started for me when I read a post by someone on this forum a long time ago (can't remember who) but they talked about SK being like a darker side of NS, like Sakura watching Naruto's rise to greatness and Karin watching Sasuke's fall to darkness, something about that appealed to me. Also reading the manifesto persuaded me a lot as well.

I can see a lot of people dislike SK and I understand that, but hey to me Karin is not Sakura so because I don't like Sakura with Sasuke doesn't mean I should dislike Karin with Sasuke.

Just my opinion on the matter

Do you hate SasuSaku because it's abusive? If so, you should hate SasuKarin and if you don't it's hyocritical.

[T XD]

Guys, what SK fans mean about this pairing is that it has potential more than SS. Their interaction are different when they're teamed up, and not talking about Sasuke going looney.

SK isn't set in stone at all, but it has good potential. We should know this by now.

Edited by T XD, 16 April 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Do you hate SasuSaku because it's abusive? If so, you should hate SasuKarin and if you don't it's hyocritical.

I hate all, SasuKarin, SasuSaku and SasuIno, for plenty of reasons let's forget the abusive part what Sasuke did to all those girls?
I only see, Karin/Ino/Sakura crying all the time, being hurt then sums up this with Sasuke being ausent on their most desperate times, Sakura as an example, Naruto was there for her on everytime she was struggling, when she was crying because of Sasuke, Naruto was there ot cheer her up, Pain's arc, and during the entire story even give her encouragement when she needed, while Sasuke was ausent, Sasuke never added anything to their characters, this is the reason why it's stupid, this is the reason why i hate those pairings and also agree with you, it's hipocrit to hate SasuSaku and like SasuKarin no matter what reasons, Karin or Sakura had no better reasons than each other.
The only difference is that Karin is sasuke's teammate on part 2 while Sakura was his teammate on part 1.
While Karin see Sasuke smilling at her, Sakura never see Sasuke smilling at all, he was always cold at her and her own flashbacks and reasons are stupid, while Karin is a sattelite character who orbitates towards Sasuke because has nowhere to go.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 April 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[K9ofChaos]

Lying =/= true intentions. I don't need to tell you the failures of a polygraph, which uses essentially the same principle as what Karin uses. She said "It shows up on chakra signature". I'm getting technical on a fictional power here, but it's how it goes: lying, especially from Sasuke's signature, is not easy to figure out. She herself said his chakra was dark and all that wholesome stuff. How exactly, from that, does she tell if he's being genuine? Perhaps his chakra becomes less malevolent when he's being apologetic? Like I said, telling if he's lying isn't all that simple. I am prepared to believe that she can sense chakra. Hence, "chakra amount and type". When she's saying that in the panel, she's referring to the change in chakra type. It's as simple as that. Sorry if I'm rambling, but I cringe every time someone mentions that sensors can tell when you're lying. They can't. Neither can Naruto, really. He can just sense negative emotions; lying happens to be one of them.

But still, it doesn't change the fact that no matter how 'compatible' they may be or whatever the tirade of the day is, forgiving Sasuke just like that and not wanting to disembowel him reflects badly upon Karin. And apologising in the first place destroys any semblance of coherence in Sasuke's character. I'll make a long, ranting post about this someday. Too tired right now.

EDIT
And just FYI, I totally agree that Karin is a strong character - much stronger than most other females in the manga. But that does not change the disaster it creates when she goes crazy over a guy. Yes, she is exactly like Hinata or part 1 Sakura in that aspect. Maybe even worse. I'd like to think that Hinata would ditch Naruto if he did all that Sasuke has done. Apparently that isn't true for Karin. We can't just ignore this crap because we have our shipper goggles on and d'aww every time we see her speak to the object of her apparent affections. Again, Kishimoto better have a REALLY good explanation for this because he has created a gaping potential thematic hole here.

I completely agree with you. All the more reason why I hope this is just some elaborate plan on Sasuke's part to earn some trust and backstab everyone once he gets whatever he needs for some diabolical scheme.

[redragon88]

Do you hate SasuSaku because it's abusive? If so, you should hate SasuKarin and if you don't it's hyocritical.

I know this wasn't directed at me but let me chip in.

I don't hate SasuSaku at all. I hate the possibility of making that pairing canon since it goes against the progression of the story.

Guys, what SK fans mean about this pairing is that it has potential more than SS. Their interaction are different when they're teamed up, and not talking about Sasuke going looney.

SK isn't set in stone at all, but it has good potential. We should know this by now.

This.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I may not ship SK, but if it's canon by the end, so be it. I don't mind at all. So long it's done nicely of course. That said I don't know if it's Kishi's fault but you know Sasuke hasn't trash Karin as she stood her attitude. The thing is her love is Juvia's style and she doesn't hide her personality. It's truly hers. Sakura was annoying because everytime you see Inner Sakura when Sasuke is around, she hides her personality. There are moments that are just showing like "Ah man" but the fact Inner Sakura is not there, that means she's free with Naruto around. Why else Kishi made it back then, only not to do it anymore.

So yeah, Karin is rather a mystery but I think it's just makes it fun. Also, lesson learn character is for Sakura, not all of them. Sakura is made to understand the reality of life, such as taking ninja serious, being helpful for people, etc. You can't really expect everyone to play Sakura or someone. That's my thoughts. Also, redragon88, I did like your post on light and dark. ^_*

[Codus N]

Except that Mashima at least developed the relationship from Gray's side as well. With SK, it's next to zilch from Sasuke's side, so you can't really compare them to GruVia's relationship. (That said, Mashima is a much better writer in romance, so it's pointless to compare Kishi to him, who is levels above him in this respect)

[TouKen4Life3g]

Except that Mashima at least developed the relationship from Gray's side as well. With SK, it's next to zilch from Sasuke's side, so you can't really compare them to GruVia's relationship. (That said, Mashima is a much better writer in romance, so it's pointless to compare Kishi to him, who is levels above him in this respect)

Not really comparing the pairing wise with its development and all, just the way Karin acts. But who knows, it's only my take on the character. Good thing Gray isn't an a--hole, but I guess that's why they work well.

[redragon88]

When I think about it the one reason I find to hate SasuSaku is because NaruSaku is portrayed as so much better. If NaruSaku didn't exist I think I would be indifferent to SasuSaku. I wouldn't like it, I would just be indifferent about it.

Who knows maybe I would dislike SasuKarin if Karin had some NaruSaku-esque development with some other guy, but that wasn't the case. But even taking that aside SasuKarin seems like a more fun pairing than SasuSaku if only because Karin lets her anger out while Sakura just cowers and agrees with everything Sasuke would do.

[TouKen4Life3g]

When I think about it the one reason I find to hate SasuSaku is because NaruSaku is portrayed as so much better. If NaruSaku didn't exist I think I would be indifferent to SasuSaku. I wouldn't like it, I would just be indifferent about it.

Who knows maybe I would dislike SasuKarin if Karin had some NaruSaku-esque development with some other guy, but that wasn't the case. But even taking that aside SasuKarin seems like a more fun pairing than SasuSaku if only because Karin lets her anger out while Sakura just cowers and agrees with everything Sasuke would do.

True.

Man, this is going to be a long wait.