19964 replies to this topic

[ChocolatXVanilla14]

Guuuys, can I have your help with something regarding NH/NS? I'm having an argument with someone, that declares himself unbiased towards the pairs, YET guess his direction.
So, can someone help me?

The dicussion was this: we were discussing the hand holding, a NH fan had a sign with "kitten you NS Fans, NH is cannon" bla bla, went from there and I told him when the hug happened I think he didn't saw anyone from the forum screaming kitten you NH fans, etc (excuse the language), the hug was misinterpreted with the hug in the Iron Land but we cleared that in the mean time. So... basically let me copy paste to you maybe you'll understand better.

Me: And we were referring at the Pain situation.
And I could bring arguments on why that was also a NS moment, since Kishi himself admitted Sakura was being honest.

Him: Not exactly with the times, are we?

She gave him a hug after facing down a strategic-yield nuclear warhead incarnated into zombie-human form... and survived (not to mention managed to negotiate the bringing back to life of everyone who died).

After hitting him on the head (tsundere is popular in Japanese culture... one of the few times the 'dere' was not forgotten by Sakura).

Me: So we should say not exactly with the times when the other ship is shown?
It's about overall development and behaviors of the fandom, not the times itself.

Him: I think you miss the point.

Naruto had the opportunity to jump up and down and say: "Yay! Sakura likes me! Let's go get some Ramen together!"

He didn't.

Sakura has had the opportunity to go: "I think I'm really starting to go for Naruto, these days."

She hasn't.

Sakura's feelings are pretty obvious. She most certainly has a bond with Naruto, and cares for him. She can even recognize, consciously, why he would be a great 'catch' for any girl. But he doesn't make her loins tingle. It's frustrating - because her mind says that the carnal desire should exist... but it simply doesn't. And it never really will.

That's not to say she doesn't have compassion for him. That's not to say she doesn't care for him. It's just that the type of love that she feels for him is not the type of love that will lead to a romance in an open society.

Sure - stick any guy and girl into a room with no escape and they'll eventually get it on. Stick multiple people in a box canyon and they'll eventually prioritize each other and try to be with the ones they feel are the "best." But in open societies - relationships like Naruto and Sakura don't often develop into romances - at least, not lasting ones. If the romance was going to happen, it would have happened already.

Psychologically, people begin to develop aversions toward sexual concepts of those close to them for long periods of time in a platonic relationship. It's our species' guard against incest (which is why so few childhood friends grow into lovers as teens - while somewhat popular as a theme, it's actually very rare... which may, in a sense, defeat the point of comparing a fiction to reality; though I contend that many elements of reality will affect the progress of a plot whether or not the author is consciously aware of the research).


So, any help? Thanks in advance!

I mean, I have an idea with what I'd want to say, but since English is not my first language, I find it a little hard to express given the fact he uses some type of terms which I know, but I find it hard to connect it into a phrase.

Thanks in advance once again!

Well from what I know this person is stating that Kishimoto hasn't shown Sakura saying that she suddenly wants Naruto but let's not forget that Sakura is shown to be iffy about her feelings for both Naruto and Sasuke. That and Naruto in that moment could only remember her as Sakura back during part 1 who was completely in love with Sasuke. He also thinks that she is lying to him. He is also used to getting everything the hard way so he wasn't expecting her to love him so easily. Hope that helps!

[Canadian_DJ]

Well, I guess you're right but it just irks me. I mean, you're ok when it comes to NH but you dismiss everything about NS? I really can't understand people sometimes...

I think you misunderstood me, I'm 100 % not ok with the conceptt of NH or the fandom itself, but really there's no USE debating with them i tell ya! no USE so why bother? you could do something useful and rant here about NS.

I repeat I am NOT ok with NH I HATE IT In fact I can't even stand HINATA herself because of her fandom, I'm just glad nArusaku and sakura herself are much more popular in Japan, which really matters

Edited by Canadian_DJ, 05 January 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[redragon88]

@Chatte

About that person you talked with, here my answer: This is fiction, not real life.

I sometimes worry people what to apply way too much real life psychology into fictional characters who's actions are decided by a single author for the sake of telling the story in the manner he wishes to.

Edited by redragon88, 05 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Chatte]

I think you misunderstood me, I'm 100 % not ok with the conceptt of NH or the fandom itself, but really there's no USE debating with them i tell ya! no USE so why bother? you could do something useful and rant here about NS.

I repeat I am NOT ok with NH I HATE IT In fact I can't even stand HINATA herself because of her fandom, I'm just glad nArusaku and sakura herself are much more popular in Japan, which really matters

Yeah, I iguess you're right.
Hmm for me, there are like max. 5 NH fans that make me not hate the fandom, though I was down on that road given their fans.
I think we've all been there.

@Chatte

About that person you talked with, here my answer: This is fiction, not real life.

I sometimes worry people what to apply way to much real life psychology into fictional characters who's actions are decided by the wishes the author for the sake of telling the story in the manner he wishes to.

Guess you're right... He always sounds like this big Dr. Physcho guy explainig this and that and how this doesn't work yet this does, etc, etc.

Edited by Chatte, 05 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Tsubaki]

Guuuys, can I have your help with something regarding NH/NS? I'm having an argument with someone, that declares himself unbiased towards the pairs, YET guess his direction.
So, can someone help me?

The dicussion was this: we were discussing the hand holding, a NH fan had a sign with "kitten you NS Fans, NH is cannon" bla bla, went from there and I told him when the hug happened I think he didn't saw anyone from the forum screaming kitten you NH fans, etc (excuse the language), the hug was misinterpreted with the hug in the Iron Land but we cleared that in the mean time. So... basically let me copy paste to you maybe you'll understand better.

Me: And we were referring at the Pain situation.
And I could bring arguments on why that was also a NS moment, since Kishi himself admitted Sakura was being honest.

Him: Not exactly with the times, are we?

She gave him a hug after facing down a strategic-yield nuclear warhead incarnated into zombie-human form... and survived (not to mention managed to negotiate the bringing back to life of everyone who died).

After hitting him on the head (tsundere is popular in Japanese culture... one of the few times the 'dere' was not forgotten by Sakura).

Me: So we should say not exactly with the times when the other ship is shown?
It's about overall development and behaviors of the fandom, not the times itself.

Him: I think you miss the point.

Naruto had the opportunity to jump up and down and say: "Yay! Sakura likes me! Let's go get some Ramen together!"

He didn't.

Sakura has had the opportunity to go: "I think I'm really starting to go for Naruto, these days."

She hasn't.

Sakura's feelings are pretty obvious. She most certainly has a bond with Naruto, and cares for him. She can even recognize, consciously, why he would be a great 'catch' for any girl. But he doesn't make her loins tingle. It's frustrating - because her mind says that the carnal desire should exist... but it simply doesn't. And it never really will.

That's not to say she doesn't have compassion for him. That's not to say she doesn't care for him. It's just that the type of love that she feels for him is not the type of love that will lead to a romance in an open society.

Sure - stick any guy and girl into a room with no escape and they'll eventually get it on. Stick multiple people in a box canyon and they'll eventually prioritize each other and try to be with the ones they feel are the "best." But in open societies - relationships like Naruto and Sakura don't often develop into romances - at least, not lasting ones. If the romance was going to happen, it would have happened already.

Psychologically, people begin to develop aversions toward sexual concepts of those close to them for long periods of time in a platonic relationship. It's our species' guard against incest (which is why so few childhood friends grow into lovers as teens - while somewhat popular as a theme, it's actually very rare... which may, in a sense, defeat the point of comparing a fiction to reality; though I contend that many elements of reality will affect the progress of a plot whether or not the author is consciously aware of the research).


So, any help? Thanks in advance!

I mean, I have an idea with what I'd want to say, but since English is not my first language, I find it a little hard to express given the fact he uses some type of terms which I know, but I find it hard to connect it into a phrase.

Thanks in advance once again!

It's funny how people try to deny that there's romantic tension between Naruto and Sakura, she blushed when she saw him after 2 years, Sai and Yamato speeches that was meant to tease the reader with the possibility of romance between them and even the databook showed that she isn't sure how she feels about him (“Her childhood friend has matured faster than she ever excepted. He makes her heart beat faster… What are her current feelings for Naruto…? Sakura still hasn’t found an answer”). The hug was meant to be taken as romantic, even the crowd considered it a romantic gesture so why the readers can't consider too?

Of course, that hug wasn't to show that they are canon and finally came to a conclusion about their feelings but that was for developing it, to show that Sakura may have feelings for him and not a brotherly hug as that person is insinuating and occasionally we have to remember that this is a story, these things will not be resolved until the end of the manga, That's why I never agreed when people said that if NaruHina were the end pairing, they would have become canon right after her confession, the fact that Naruto and Hinata haven't come to a conclusion after she confessed never meant they couldn't have a chance in the future, because we all know that these things can only be resolved in the end.

Sakura had already acknowledged Naruto as someone important to her, as someone she trusts and cares... all this still in part 1, but Kishi continued to develop his relationship throughout Part 2, for what? if his intention was to show that they have become great friends he had already achieved this in part 1, so what's the reason for him to spend so much time in a relationship that he just wanted to show friendship while the supposed real romantic couple remained in the shadows with a huge lack development!? why?


Another thing he said is that in real life this doesn't develop to romance as he himself stated that it's commonly used as a theme. But the point is that while in the West it's not something common, it is in Japan. Practically all mangas use themes like friendship became love, childhood friends who became lovers because in japan love comes to companionship (You never wondered why incest couples are so popular there?). For them, love is born of a beautiful friendship and good coexistence. Of course that there are other types of love, but this is the most common used in mangas and to me it's also the type of love that Kishi wants to portray.


uhg It's hard to write something that makes sense in a language that you do not master completely. Sorry!

Edited by Tsubaki, 05 January 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[dragonflyx11]

It's funny how people try to deny that there's romantic tension between Naruto and Sakura, she blushed when she saw him after 2 years, Sai and Yamato speeches that was meant to tease the reader with the possibility of romance between them and even the databook showed that she isn't sure how she feels about him (“Her childhood friend has matured faster than she ever excepted. He makes her heart beat faster… What are her current feelings for Naruto…? Sakura still hasn’t found an answer”). The hug was meant to be taken as romantic, even the crowd considered it a romantic gesture so why the readers can't consider too?

Of course, that hug wasn't to show that they are canon and finally came to a conclusion about their feelings but that was for developing it, to show that Sakura may have feelings for him and not a brotherly hug as that person is insinuating and occasionally we have to remember that this is a story, these things will not be resolved until the end of the manga, That's why I never agreed when people said that if NaruHina were the end pairing, they would have become canon right after her confession, the fact that Naruto and Hinata haven't come to a conclusion after she confessed never meant they couldn't have a chance in the future, because we all know that these things can only be resolved in the end.

Sakura had already acknowledged Naruto as someone important to her, as someone she trusts and cares... all this still in part 1, but Kishi continued to develop his relationship throughout Part 2, for what? if his intention was to show that they have become great friends he had already achieved this in part 1, so what's the reason for him to spend so much time in a relationship that he just wanted to show friendship while the supposed real romantic couple remained in the shadows with a huge lack development!? why?


Another thing he said is that in real life this doesn't develop to romance as he himself stated that it's commonly used as a theme. But the point is that while in the West it's not something common, it is in Japan. Practically all mangas use themes like friendship became love, childhood friends who became lovers because in japan love comes to companionship (You never wondered why incest couples are so popular there?). For them, love is born of a beautiful friendship and good coexistence. Of course that there are other types of love, but this is the most common used in mangas and to me it's also the type of love that Kishi wants to portray.


uhg It's hard to write something that makes sense in a language that you do not master completely. Sorry!

for someone who said its hard for them to make sense in english your post is full of epic win!! now while i acknowledge NH has more of a chance now, i still feel that to often fans look at naruto from a western perspective and don't accept the large differences in western and japanese culture.

Edited by dragonflyx11, 05 January 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Don-kun]

for someone who said its hard for them to make sense in english your post is full of epic win!! now while i acknowledge NH has more of a chance now, i still feel that to often fans look at naruto from a western perspective and don't except the large differences in western and japanese culture.

Did you NS by any chance?

[dragonflyx11]

Did you NS by any chance?

no i meant NH there lol, what i meant is that well this last chapter does give NH more of a chance. Naruto is still a japanese manga, and NS in my mind is much more your typical shounen manga romance, and in my mind the still leading contender to be canon.

Edited by dragonflyx11, 05 January 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Don-kun]

no i meant NH there lol, what i meant is that well this last chapter does give NH more of a chance. Naruto is still a japanese manga, and NS in my mind is much more your typical shounen manga romance, and in my mind the still leading contender to be canon.

Now I'm even more confused.
Sorry.

[dragonflyx11]

Now I'm even more confused.
Sorry.

lol im sorry. tsubaki was talking about how relationships in japan are seen differently then in the west. we have the notion that great friends do not equal great lovers. they dont have that stereotype in japan. narusaku is a very typical shounen manga romance. boy annoys girl at first but slowly shows girl that she had been wrong about her first impressions of him. boy slowly grows on girl, an girl slowly develops feelings for boy. its a very typical shounen relationship. its slow and takes time, cause shounen is not romance, its action. now just because narusaku is typical does not make it boring, far from it.

Edited by dragonflyx11, 05 January 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Don-kun]

lol im sorry. tsubaki was talking about how relationships in japan are seen differently then in the west. we have the notion that great friends do not equal great lovers. they dont have that stereotype in japan. narusaku is a very typical shounen manga romance. boy annoys girl at first but slowly shows girl that she had been wrong about her first impressions of him. boy slowly grows on girl, an girl slowly develops feelings for boy. its a very typical shounen relationship. its slow and takes time, cause shounen is not romance, its action. now just because narusaku is typical does not make it boring, far from it.

Well I did understand Tsubak's post from the start, but what happen with yours is that I misunderstood what you said in your first post.
That was all my fault sorry again.

[T XD]

lol im sorry. tsubaki was talking about how relationships in japan are seen differently then in the west. we have the notion that great friends do not equal great lovers. they dont have that stereotype in japan. narusaku is a very typical shounen manga romance. boy annoys girl at first but slowly shows girl that she had been wrong about her first impressions of him. boy slowly grows on girl, an girl slowly develops feelings for boy. its a very typical shounen relationship. its slow and takes time, cause shounen is not romance, its action. now just because narusaku is typical does not make it boring, far from it.

Agree. Manga, especially shonen, almost always have this kind of relationship between main characters. The nature of their relationship are spontaneous and natural that makes the reader interested in the characters and what's between them... well, not all the readers :/

[shadow_Uzumaki]

lol im sorry. tsubaki was talking about how relationships in japan are seen differently then in the west. we have the notion that great friends do not equal great lovers. they dont have that stereotype in japan. narusaku is a very typical shounen manga romance. boy annoys girl at first but slowly shows girl that she had been wrong about her first impressions of him. boy slowly grows on girl, an girl slowly develops feelings for boy. its a very typical shounen relationship. its slow and takes time, cause shounen is not romance, its action. now just because narusaku is typical does not make it boring, far from it.

A note from my Jap. Civilization and Culture is the topic of PDAs (Public displays of attention). Japanese culture is very conservative and the most PDAs that couples dating will show are a hug, hand-holding, and maybe a chaste kiss. So, hand-holding in this case, CAN mean a lot. Whether you interpret Naruto holding Hinata's hand as romantic or friendly, it really colors your perspective, especially (big assumption here) for a Japanese audience.

[naruto-z]

A note from my Jap. Civilization and Culture is the topic of PDAs (Public displays of attention). Japanese culture is very conservative and the most PDAs that couples dating will show are a hug, hand-holding, and maybe a chaste kiss. So, hand-holding in this case, CAN mean a lot. Whether you interpret Naruto holding Hinata's hand as romantic or friendly, it really colors your perspective, especially (big assumption here) for a Japanese audience.

But based on your interpretation (which makes complete sense and I agree), it would also make Narusaku's hugs a very big deal. Perhaps, even bigger of a deal compared to holding hands.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

But based on your interpretation (which makes complete sense and I agree), it would also make Narusaku's hugs a very big deal. Perhaps, even bigger of a deal compared to holding hands.

Yeah, I just added this bit in because, to Westerners, holding hands may not be as big a deal when compared to hugs.

In the end, it's really down to how you interpret their hugs and holding hands.

[sushi.]

Yeah, I just added this bit in because, to Westerners, holding hands may not be as big a deal when compared to hugs.

In the end, it's really down to how you interpret their hugs and holding hands.

The big difference for me is that Naruto holding hands with Hinata was a strategy, maybe a part of Shikaku's plan.(we don't know if there is an ulterior motive, but I think it is unlikely). Sakura hugged Naruto because she wanted to, and the surrounding faces told me the hug was a much bigger deal than the handholding.

Edited by sushi., 06 January 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[Chatte]

I know stuff like that are considered romantic in Japan, however, I swear to God, I haven't seen any romantic implication in their hand holding. It's like when you take a friend's hand and hold him up. That was kinda it, at least to me.
Yet again, I'm western-er.

[Tsubaki]

for someone who said its hard for them to make sense in english your post is full of epic win!! now while i acknowledge NH has more of a chance now, i still feel that to often fans look at naruto from a western perspective and don't accept the large differences in western and japanese culture.

thank you!

Yeah, and that's also the reason that even after all these years there are still people who use arguments like "NaruSaku is an abusive relationship" or "She beats him too much so she doesn't like him." when it just clearly shows that they don't know what tsundere means or even they know but refuse to accept that this isn't seen as something "bad" in Japan, but as comic relief.

Love in Japan is so different from love in the West, I don't know too much about it but I think if I had to categorize the type of love in Japan (and the East in general .. I think) I would say it's more like Philos love(a love based on friendship between two people) while in the West it's more like Eros Love(a love based more on physical traits.) It must be the reason why some people can't understand that people who have a great friendship are more propitious to become lovers, because for them this is the best way to build a relationship.

I know stuff like that are considered romantic in Japan, however, I swear to God, I haven't seen any romantic implication in their hand holding. It's like when you take a friend's hand and hold him up. That was kinda it, at least to me.
Yet again, I'm western-er.

And I think that the moment hasn't helped too, I mean, while Sakura's hug was in one of the best moments possible(right after he was recognized by the village), it was, as @sushi commented because she wanted to, there's no other reason besides the fact that she wanted to hug him while Naruto x Hinata hold hands was in a moment not propitious to romantic things, they were in the middle of a war and Neji had just died (his body was still on the ground ). It's a little hard to believe that they wanted to be romantic with each other here and there's also a lack of romantic reaction too (soft smile, blush, things like that) and there's a reason why he needed to hold her hand, we don't know for sure if that was the real reason he held her hand but he gave her Chakra then that can definitely be his intention here.

Edited by Tsubaki, 06 January 2013 - 04:04 AM.

[Don-kun]

I don't want to try and diminish the moment because I really feel it was a big NH moment, but to me the NH moment wasn't when they were holding hand because they never did hold hand it was more of Naruto holding her hand, there finger weren't embedded in a romantic way.

The romantic hint for me was when Hinata caress his cheeks.


To me did is a big deal when someone wants to depict a strictly romantic moment.

Kishimoto not only avoid this but he made it clear to the readers how Naruto was holding her hand plus the way Naruto never faced her while to thank her.

615 --Click here to view--

http://www.squidoo.c...questoholdhands

Edited by Don-kun, 06 January 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Even if it was an NH moment that doesn't confirm NH is canon yet does it? We have all these MOMENTS for pairing tease, but non of them truly "seal the deal" yet, so I just don't want to rush to conclusions.

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 January 2013 - 04:28 AM.