882 replies to this topic

[Qia]

So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask if anyone might consider what Sakura did on the bridge and what Hinata did during her confession the same thing. They both didn't have a plan exactly, after all, but would you agree with that view?

Edited by Qia, 22 January 2013 - 02:34 AM.

[kirabook]

Sakura was running towards Naruto. I'm sure she thought Naruto would snap out of it when she approached. Up to that point, Naruto wasn't attacking them, he was attacking Orochimaru. I don't think she expected to be attacked since Naruto is not an enemy.

Hinata, on the other hand, rushed an enemy. It wasn't a good friend turned bad or a friend out of sorts in the consciousness department. Pein was a strong enemy that was able to pin Naruto down. She knew she didn't have a chance and that the enemy would not have mercy on her.

I can't really explain what I mean well, but Sakura was running towards a friend, said friend had trouble with his inner beast then, but obviously she hadn't realized how bad things had gotten until Kabuto started taunting her. Hinata ran towards and enemy that just made their village into a crater.

[fireandice]

So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask if anyone might consider what Sakura did on the bridge and what Hinata did during her confession the same thing. They both didn't have a plan exactly, after all, but would you agree with that view?

That's a very good question. In summation, they were similar, but Sakura's was distinctly less irresponsible and selfish than Hinata's actions in 437.

In terms of having a plan of sorts:

Sakura: Yes, it was dangerous and reckless of her to run towards Naruto like that, but it was rooted in some logic, imo- that hopefully he might recognise her face/voice and wrestle back his consciousness from the Kyuubi. Her comments "I'll save Sasuke for you! So stop..." Emotionally, I think she was understandably driven to it from the shock of seeing the 4T Kyuubi for the first time, as well as Kabuto's cruel comments that Naruto had become a monster because he wanted to pursue Sasuke. Sakura, knowing that part of that guilt stems of the POAL, felt responsible for her role in contributing to that burden. And like Kirabook said, there was a little more sense as Sakura thought Naruto might still be conscious enough not to attack a friend.

Hinata: She really had no plan at all, and it made no sense for her to do what she did. The few seconds she bought for Naruto with the element of surprise initially were wasted when she went to grandstand with her confession. In comparison, the words Sakura said had a purpose and made SOME sense (trying to get Naruto to regain control over Kurama). I feel Hinata WAS being irresponsible and selfish, because she KNEW she couldn't match Pain head on, yet she did it. The sensible thing would have been for her to focus on saying "Naruto-kun, please try and get free, I can buy some time for you" or to try and remove the chakra rods. If she had done that, then her facing Pain would make more sense even though she was outmatched. Instead of that, she went on and on about her feelings and her confession, making her actions revolve more AROUND her act of confessing, rather than trying to really HELP Naruto.

It would have been braver and more admirable if she had gone and gathered her team or some other Hyuuga clan members to help, if she REALLY wanted to protect him. Because, let's be honest, she did a poor job of that. Pain owned her in seconds in the manga.

In terms of RISK (to surroundings, bystanders, collateral damage)

Sakura: In the middle of nowhere.
Hinata: In Konoha, where there were injured survivors scattered all over the place in the rubble.

On the balance, to be fair to Hinata, I think she didn't know then that Naruto was the Kyuubi jinchuuriki, and could not anticipate that he might lose control of the fox. My assessment is that in considering INTENT, what Hinata did was perhaps no less risky and reckless than Sakura's, if we consider that she didn't know about Kurama.

But in the sum of it, I would say their actions are not the same because while Sakura put herself at risk of being attacked by an out of control Kurama, her words and actions were selfless in that she was hoping to bring Naruto back to consciousness. Hinata, on the other hand, put herself and Naruto at risk UNECESSARILY, because she was clouded by her emotions. She might not have stood a chance against Pain, but she could easily have been a real help and protected Naruto if she had not made everything centre around her confession.

Obviously, I'm biased in favour of Sakura

Edited by fireandice, 22 January 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[Qia]

Wow...those are some good answers. Thanks . The question popped in my head, and I couldn't answer it very well so I had to ask.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask if anyone might consider what Sakura did on the bridge and what Hinata did during her confession the same thing. They both didn't have a plan exactly, after all, but would you agree with that view?

The aspect these two have in common is that both Sakura & Hinata weren't thinking things through very much. They were running on impulsiveness and pure emotion. Admittingly, it wasn't ninja behavior.

But the major difference is that Sakura had no idea Naruto would actually attack her. She knew he was out of control, but not how much. Naruto's a friend, after all. Sakura wasn't even considering he would attack her. Again, it's her fault because she was letting her emotions cloud her judgement. Hinata was doing the same. However, the difference is that Hinata actually knew how badly the odds were against her. Sakura did not. Also different people. Naruto: friend. Pain: enemy.

It's true that both actions weren't very smart to do. However, Hinata was acting much more selfish than Sakura was. Hinata confessed her feelings because it was her last chance, consequently causing Naruto to feel so ridiculously guilty he became blind with fury. Cue Six-tails. On the Tenchi Bride, he was already in Kyuubi mode. Sakura didn't run to him because of herself, she did it because she couldn't stand seeing Naruto lose himself because of Sasuke. Her words are less selfish too: "Naruto, that's enough! Stop, it's okay I can save Sasuke-kun for you! So you don't need to ...".

If you compare their intentions, it's drastically different. Sakura was trying to relieve Naruto of his burden while in Hinata's case, she was making Naruto's burden larger by confessing. See the difference?

I find the Tenchi Bridge scene foreshadowing of Sakura later trying to completely remove the promise and get him to stop chasing Sasuke in the confession. Kishimoto really is good at foreshadowing.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 22 January 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[merryGOflava]

So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask if anyone might consider what Sakura did on the bridge and what Hinata did during her confession the same thing. They both didn't have a plan exactly, after all, but would you agree with that view?

sakura: thought she could snap naruto out of it, by trying talk to him and show a friendly face.

hinata: tried to go after pain....when she should have been going after pain's rods that were stuck in naruto, so he might have a chance to escape (like she did in the anime)

both were dangerously stupid XD but sakura's plan makes more sense than hinata's XD

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

God, I can't believe this. People on Youtube recognize the Obito/Naruto parallel and how he might have to lose the girl he loves. Yet so many are saying "Hinata's gonna die now!"

Really? How does that even make sense? Hinata is not a parallel to Rin. There is no parallel to Hinata. Sakura is very clearly the parallel to Rin. It's hinting that she will be the one to be attacked. This isn't even pairing bias, this is just ordinary plot points. But NO, as soon as something involves romance, the NaruHina fans have distort everything in favor of Hinata. "Hinata's the Rin parallel". God, the ignorance.

[neoshadow]

God, I can't believe this. People on Youtube recognize the Obito/Naruto parallel and how he might have to lose the girl he loves. Yet so many are saying "Hinata's gonna die now!"

Really? How does that even make sense? Hinata is not a parallel to Rin. There is no parallel to Hinata. Sakura is very clearly the parallel to Rin. It's hinting that she will be the one to be attacked. This isn't even pairing bias, this is just ordinary plot points. But NO, as soon as something involves romance, the NaruHina fans have distort everything in favor of Hinata. "Hinata's the Rin parallel". God, the ignorance.

Haha oh wow I agree with you they are twisting facts to support a pairing but taking away the pairing to be honest I can kind of see how they might equal Rin with Hinata, I think Team Minato is very obvious Team 7 parallel and its easy to see Rin as Sakura, she loves the dark boy in the group and is loved by the kinder, slightly stupid boy in the group. But personality wise from what little we have seen of Rin I could see how they might think shes closer to Hinata. Personally I don't agree I think Rin is Sakura minus the more aggressive tendencies but there is enough there to make the comparison.

[Tsubaki]

God, I can't believe this. People on Youtube recognize the Obito/Naruto parallel and how he might have to lose the girl he loves. Yet so many are saying "Hinata's gonna die now!"

Really? How does that even make sense? Hinata is not a parallel to Rin. There is no parallel to Hinata. Sakura is very clearly the parallel to Rin. It's hinting that she will be the one to be attacked. This isn't even pairing bias, this is just ordinary plot points. But NO, as soon as something involves romance, the NaruHina fans have distort everything in favor of Hinata. "Hinata's the Rin parallel". God, the ignorance.

I'm not surprised! I read something like that on DA, they recognize the Team Minato/Team 7 parallel and even JiraTsu/NaruSaku parallel ... but then they said that they felt bad for Jiraiya/Obito because they never had a "Hinata" in their lives like Naruto did, I just ...

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm not surprised! I read something like that on DA, they recognize the Team Minato/Team 7 parallel and even JiraTsu/NaruSaku parallel ... but then they said that they felt bad for Jiraiya/Obito because they never had a "Hinata" in their lives like Naruto did, I just ...

Really? Wow. I think Hinata loving Naruto is just a bonus part from Kishi and I don't even think he really pay that much of attention. You may say, "But we have been seeing her for a while." Sometimes, you just have to give extra spice for all fans to be happy. Besides, she really didn't get that much of attention, but I guess this arc lasts so long, we forgot all others. If you ask me, each team has that one person out of the group that will get more treatment than others. Team 10: Shikamaru, though the whole team does get the most treatment out of all. Team 8: Hinata. Team Gai: Looks like it's Gai himself. Think back from part 1 to now. He has many spotlight moments than his team. That seems to be the case for side characters.

[redragon88]

I'm not surprised! I read something like that on DA, they recognize the Team Minato/Team 7 parallel and even JiraTsu/NaruSaku parallel ... but then they said that they felt bad for Jiraiya/Obito because they never had a "Hinata" in their lives like Naruto did, I just ...

So the lesson of the story is: if you don't have a Hinata then you'll lead a loveless life.

Yeah, forget working hard to win the affection of someone, the only thing you can do is hope that a Hinata will suddenly appear in your life.

I can't believe how some people forget that you actually have to make an effort in order to establish a relationship, not just hope that some magical perfect person will suddenly appear in front of you.

[TouKen4Life3g]

So the lesson of the story is: if you don't have a Hinata then you'll lead a loveless life.

Yeah, forget working hard to win the affection of someone, the only thing you can do is hope that a Hinata will suddenly appear in your life.

I can't believe how some people forget that you actually have to make an effort in order to establish a relationship, not just hope that some magical perfect person will suddenly appear in front of you.

Yeah, that's not a good moral at all. Funny, if NH is a serious deal, should Kishi at least have a Hinata in each of the parallels. I'm just saying.

[六道仙人]

so the fable's moral is : Naruto will succed to fulfill his wishes because he had Hinata at his side unlike Jiraiya, Obito and even Minato

[Mistraal]

Wait so....I just noticed this.

Sasuke is in Konoha.

Sakura disappeared from the battlefield. We don't know where she went.


......



I hope not. That's all I have to say about that.

[PhenixElite]

Wait so....I just noticed this.

Sasuke is in Konoha.

Sakura disappeared from the battlefield. We don't know where she went.


......



I hope not. That's all I have to say about that.

Wtf, do you really believe shes gone the whole way back to konoha just because sasuke is there who tried to kill her ??
Where should she even get the info that sasuke is in konoha?
It will have to do something with karin but not sakura

[Mistraal]

Wtf, do you really believe shes gone the whole way back to konoha just because sasuke is there who tried to kill her ??
Where should she even get the info that sasuke is in konoha?
It will have to do something with karin but not sakura

I'm really really really really really really hoping not. Emphasis on really.

[James S Cassidy]

First let me say, Sorry everyone. Had a really bad a yesterday and was rather depressed. Life is getting hard on my end and it is taking it's toll on me.

Wow. I don't think that's what RomanceGirl was saying at all. And that's a pretty extreme interpretation, but you're welcome to hate her.

I'll be honest, I don't really like the tone of your post here. It comes off as...not arrogance, but almost like you're looking down on me. Probably not your intention, but just saying it doesn't sound right.

Tricksie, what I was saying was that if people really see her as that fragile, then she is nothing more than a weak character. The fact that anyone sees her like this at all and how some describe her, it's really bad. It's worse than how Sakura is not viewed as the heroine by the fanbase. Hinata, by her fanbase, is seen as the bigger heroine, but to us she seems more like a clingy girl who has tunnel-vision for Naruto.

As I said, I hope RomanG is wrong in what she says simply because this "idea" of Hinata is getting so radical. Even from her fans, it's ridiculous how bad people see Hinata. They don't see her as this strong confident girl who has learned to move on her own, but rather a mirror character. A character that just mimics and reflects others and can shatter as easily as glass.

I want to see Hinata as something more than that. If she has grown as a character and she has more confidence, then she should take a rejection just fine. Yeah, she will be sad, but it shouldn't utterly devastate her as some people claim. Not necessarily here, but fans in general.

I don't want to hate Hinata, but she has not given me a reason to like her either. If she really is that fragile that she cannot take a rejection and live her life, then I will lose all respect for her.

No one is saying NH has to be canon, and no one is saying she is sooooo fragile.

RomanG did...

Naruto is a naturally nice guy and while he can be blunt, Hinata's like fragile glass. He has no idea how hurt she'd be if he just flat-out rejected her.

She even says this. Sorry to pick on you RomanG, I love you, but I want to make a point here. If Hinata is really that fragile, then she is a terrible character and she really is nothing more than a plot device. It also puts more problems on Kishi, again if it is true, that he buckles under pressure to please the fans in the world. Which again I don't think it is true.

As for the first part, as I said, it seems like what people are saying is that NH has to be canon cause Hinata is too weak to survive on her own and too fragile to accept rejection. Even you said with the nindo of "never giving up" may have caused Hinata to not accept "no" as an answer. However, someone has to give up. Someone has to let the other go in order for there to be any resolution. The "never give up" if taken so literal and radical will cause problems abound because it means that no couple is canon. Hinata won't give up on Naruto, Naruto won't give up on Sakura, and Sakura won't give up on Sasuke. (This goes along with my wall of Naruto point where I think Sakura is trying to show that Naruto's nindo might be taken too radical or as a means to hide behind when things get tough.)

Maybe Hinata has to give up on Naruto and that is how she gets that resolution. When she accepts the truth that Naruto doesn't love her like that is the day she grows up. It seems lately that the main theme of Naruto is acceptance. To accept the people who are gone. To accept that not everything you plan is going to happen. To accept that what you once believed may not necessarily be true.

So Hinata has pretty much a choice here. She can accept Naruto not being in love with her and just be happy for him, thereby growing into a more confident adult and feel satisfied with herself. Or she can not accept it, continue to chase Naruto and be narrow-minded to everything else and be this fragile thing who cannot stand up on her own. **


**Purposely ignoring the idea of NH still having a chance to be canon because I chose not to accept it now. It's biased, I guess, but I admit it. I can't see NH happening and be believable.

I already posted that I don't think Naruto will tell Hinata "no" because Kishimoto will not want to tarnish Naruto for any fans. NH or NS. Kishimoto writes ways out for him in a lot of sticky situations.

And I already posted that I think Hinata's storyline will be resolved on it's own, away from Naruto, specifically so Naruto doesn't have to give her a final resounding rejection.

See, You should have specified that from the start, but from previous posts you make it sound like Naruto HAS to give Hinata some kind of answer otherwise there is no resolution. Especially by chance if what he said to her before was his answer to it.

When I saw Naruto tell Hinata that she is strong on her own, I took that as him politely saying "no." It is the best answer I can see him give without being really blunt.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/5
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/6

This chapter kind of gave me that sense of it. It plays even more of a significance because he mentions that she saved him twice, even though really she didn't, yet he mentions nothing of the confession. Shadow Wolf even mentioned that since Naruto is in his 9-Tail cloak and can sense people's emotions which makes me even more suspicious that he knows Hinata even more.

Now I wasn't expecting Naruto to full out confess there, but don't you think Naruto then could have been like "Hey, Hinata, when this war is over I want to talk to you about something." That would guarantee them for him to talk to her and give NH a bigger chance. Not certain, but bigger chance. Instead he says "You're strong" and that's it.

Hinata needs, as you put it here, that development away from Naruto. Yes, I will agree with this, but this is the only resolution that is going to work. If there is constantly going to be moments of rare Naruto and Hinata interaction with her seeing it as romantic and with him seeing it as nothing, then we're just running around in circles.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

First let me say, Sorry everyone. Had a really bad a yesterday and was rather depressed. Life is getting hard on my end and it is taking it's toll on me.



I'll be honest, I don't really like the tone of your post here. It comes off as...not arrogance, but almost like you're looking down on me. Probably not your intention, but just saying it doesn't sound right.

Tricksie, what I was saying was that if people really see her as that fragile, then she is nothing more than a weak character. The fact that anyone sees her like this at all and how some describe her, it's really bad. It's worse than how Sakura is not viewed as the heroine by the fanbase. Hinata, by her fanbase, is seen as the bigger heroine, but to us she seems more like a clingy girl who has tunnel-vision for Naruto.

As I said, I hope RomanG is wrong in what she says simply because this "idea" of Hinata is getting so radical. Even from her fans, it's ridiculous how bad people see Hinata. They don't see her as this strong confident girl who has learned to move on her own, but rather a mirror character. A character that just mimics and reflects others and can shatter as easily as glass.

I want to see Hinata as something more than that. If she has grown as a character and she has more confidence, then she should take a rejection just fine. Yeah, she will be sad, but it shouldn't utterly devastate her as some people claim. Not necessarily here, but fans in general.

I don't want to hate Hinata, but she has not given me a reason to like her either. If she really is that fragile that she cannot take a rejection and live her life, then I will lose all respect for her.




RomanG did...



She even says this. Sorry to pick on you RomanG, I love you, but I want to make a point here. If Hinata is really that fragile, then she is a terrible character and she really is nothing more than a plot device. It also puts more problems on Kishi, again if it is true, that he buckles under pressure to please the fans in the world. Which again I don't think it is true.

As for the first part, as I said, it seems like what people are saying is that NH has to be canon cause Hinata is too weak to survive on her own and too fragile to accept rejection. Even you said with the nindo of "never giving up" may have caused Hinata to not accept "no" as an answer. However, someone has to give up. Someone has to let the other go in order for there to be any resolution. The "never give up" if taken so literal and radical will cause problems abound because it means that no couple is canon. Hinata won't give up on Naruto, Naruto won't give up on Sakura, and Sakura won't give up on Sasuke. (This goes along with my wall of Naruto point where I think Sakura is trying to show that Naruto's nindo might be taken too radical or as a means to hide behind when things get tough.)

Maybe Hinata has to give up on Naruto and that is how she gets that resolution. When she accepts the truth that Naruto doesn't love her like that is the day she grows up. It seems lately that the main theme of Naruto is acceptance. To accept the people who are gone. To accept that not everything you plan is going to happen. To accept that what you once believed may not necessarily be true.

So Hinata has pretty much a choice here. She can accept Naruto not being in love with her and just be happy for him, thereby growing into a more confident adult and feel satisfied with herself. Or she can not accept it, continue to chase Naruto and be narrow-minded to everything else and be this fragile thing who cannot stand up on her own. **


**Purposely ignoring the idea of NH still having a chance to be canon because I chose not to accept it now. It's biased, I guess, but I admit it. I can't see NH happening and be believable.



See, You should have specified that from the start, but from previous posts you make it sound like Naruto HAS to give Hinata some kind of answer otherwise there is no resolution. Especially by chance if what he said to her before was his answer to it.

When I saw Naruto tell Hinata that she is strong on her own, I took that as him politely saying "no." It is the best answer I can see him give without being really blunt.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/5
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/6

This chapter kind of gave me that sense of it. It plays even more of a significance because he mentions that she saved him twice, even though really she didn't, yet he mentions nothing of the confession. Shadow Wolf even mentioned that since Naruto is in his 9-Tail cloak and can sense people's emotions which makes me even more suspicious that he knows Hinata even more.

Now I wasn't expecting Naruto to full out confess there, but don't you think Naruto then could have been like "Hey, Hinata, when this war is over I want to talk to you about something." That would guarantee them for him to talk to her and give NH a bigger chance. Not certain, but bigger chance. Instead he says "You're strong" and that's it.

Hinata needs, as you put it here, that development away from Naruto. Yes, I will agree with this, but this is the only resolution that is going to work. If there is constantly going to be moments of rare Naruto and Hinata interaction with her seeing it as romantic and with him seeing it as nothing, then we're just running around in circles.

He can sense evil on people not knowing what the person is feeling on the moment.
With this he will know how Sasuke will act if he tries to fool Naruto.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 22 January 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

He can sense evil on people not knowing what the person is feeling on the moment.
With this he will know how Sasuke will act if he tries to fool Naruto.

There is no evidence to suggest he can't sense the "good" in people. Possible, until proven false.

And as the chapter I pointed out, Hinata thought about how weak she is without saying anything, yet Naruto gave the perfect response almost like he was reading her mind.

Wow, sense of Star Wars again

Naruto: "I won't fight you Sasuke, I sense there is still good in you.
Sasuke: "It's too late for me, Naruto."

*Then Sasuke emperor-styles Madara into a giant Powercore.*

[Chucky-kun]

There is no evidence to suggest he can't sense the "good" in people. Possible, until proven false.

And as the chapter I pointed out, Hinata thought about how weak she is without saying anything, yet Naruto gave the perfect response almost like he was reading her mind.

Wow, sense of Star Wars again

Naruto: "I won't fight you Sasuke, I sense there is still good in you.
Sasuke: "It's too late for me, Naruto."

*Then Sasuke emperor-styles Madara into a giant Powercore.*

Haha, reminds of that philosophical debate awhile back when we were talking about good and and intentions.

Btw I agree with you on the post above, personally I think you made a correct interpretation in RomanG's post and that, for hinata to complete her development, she should be strong enough to accept a rejection from naruto.