146 replies to this topic

[dl316bh]

What else was he going to do?

To have some dignity. Being shot down is not the end. Naruto's not stupid; he had to know full well begging wasn't going to work on a man like the Raikage.

That sure wasn't Naruto's first time at the dance. But it was sure the first time he acted that pitifully. Naruto's changed a lot of minds through action; to suddenly have him toss dignity aside and beg like that does not seem like something the impulsive knucklehead who worms his way into everyones heads would do. I mean, it's not the first time he's been shot down by a disbelieving party and sure not the first time he's been shot down by someone who wants Sasuke dead, which would be pretty much the world at this point.

Long story short, it rang false and like something a weaker character might do, not the character we've been following for pretty much the entire manga.

Or maybe I was fooled into thinking Naruto was stronger than he is; but Kishi seemed to be pushing that for most of the manga at least partway into Part 2, so I like to think that if such is the case, I had enough reason to think that way.

It pretty accurately portrays the whole "girls mature faster than boys" thing, I think.

Well, maybe. But it's a strange reversal, because while Sakura's advanced a great deal in regards to dealing with things, it feels like Naruto's regressed terribly. Sakura's been a stronger, more understandable character than Naruto of late. She's handling tough decisions while he seems to buckle under the weight of them and not do much of anything.

Everything now is just boiling down to Naruto becoming a more mentally strong Hokage. Up until now, becoming Hokage to him just meant being the most powerful shinobi. He didn't anticipate that he'd have to make such hard decisions (though Jiraiya and Itachi warned him about that).

One thing I've wondered is if this is leading to Naruto finding that perhaps being the Hokage isn't something he really wants. Like you said, as a kid he obviously had some grave misconceptions about the job. It actually makes sense as most kids learn harsh truths about childhood dreams.

But, I doubt it; it's not something I could see Kishi doing.

Edited by dl316bh, 17 December 2009 - 06:23 AM.

[KungFuTruffle]

With how many people keep talking about how weak Naruto is acting towards Sasuke, I can't help but wonder: Do you think what Itachi did to him before may be effecting Naruto's mindset, in order to insure that Sasuke survives? When I think about it, it was around that part of the story where Naruto started losing his composure...

[ciardha]

It pretty accurately portrays the whole "girls mature faster than boys" thing, I think.

Sakura has about reached the age where she's no longer going through puberty; Naruto hasn't.

Moreso than Naruto, biological does tie into mental maturity somewhat, but Kishimoto did say Sakura would have an arc where she "grew up" too.

Interesting page on teen and 20's brain development
http://hrweb.mit.edu...dult/brain.html

I've read up on this interesting area of study and young women do seem to follow the usual development pattern here as with each earlier developmental stage- the higher brain function development tends to reach completion in young women a bit earlier than it does in young men.

That sure wasn't Naruto's first time at the dance. But it was sure the first time he acted that pitifully. Naruto's changed a lot of minds through action; to suddenly have him toss dignity aside and beg like that does not seem like something the impulsive knucklehead who worms his way into everyones heads would do. I mean, it's not the first time he's been shot down by a disbelieving party and sure not the first time he's been shot down by someone who wants Sasuke dead, which would be pretty much the world at this point.

Long story short, it rang false and like something a weaker character might do, not the character we've been following for pretty much the entire manga.

No, it rang true for the more honest and mature Naruto we've seen in part 2. As Naruto becomes more aware of how the world really is rather than his fantasy of it, he becomes more mature, less ignorantly bombastic. A 12 year can charm acting the way Naruto did, but we saw even in part 1 that this was a facade. Naruto as he matures, uses this facade less and less. His illusions though have to break in harsh ways, but he does rebuild from it, each rebuilding has lessened his ignorant and bombastic side. Naruto has to become a young man that it's believable that he is the Child of Destiny who will lead the ninja world away from the endless cycle of hatred and toward a true lasting peace.

Well, maybe. But it's a strange reversal, because while Sakura's advanced a great deal in regards to dealing with things, it feels like Naruto's regressed terribly. Sakura's been a stronger, more understandable character than Naruto of late. She's handling tough decisions while he seems to buckle under the weight of them and not do much of anything.

That's not what people were saying in the aftermath of the Pain destruction of Konoha arc, when Sakura had several instances of tears and Naruto was the one who looked strong and together. Then the complaints were of how weak Sakura was, how she had regressed... It wasn't true though, Kishimoto was just depicting Sakura hitting her emotional wall and breaking down. Then she picked herself back up and right now she looks the stronger one while Naruto hits his emotional wall and breaks down. But remember the last time this happened- after he went 8 tails. All it took was a few words from his father and he came back emotionally stronger than he was before. Same thing is going to happen here. I'm wondering if we might see Minato speaking to Naruto again. I'm hoping so. Kishimoto did say he was going to tell what happened to Kushina, and that would be an ideal time. Minato tells Naruto about his mother, then tells him to go after Sakura.

Edited by ciardha, 17 December 2009 - 07:32 AM.

[dl316bh]

Do you think what Itachi did to him before may be effecting Naruto's mindset, in order to insure that Sasuke survives? When I think about it, it was around that part of the story where Naruto started losing his composure...

That would be somewhat interesting and lean the entire thing towards a "you were SUPPOSED to notice he's been acting off" situation. Which I'm not entirely against. But I'd be very surprised if that's what Kishi has in mind. Usually in those type of stories you'd get an inkling that someone or something believes something is off with them or you'd get SOME kind of indication. But for the most part, Naruto's general breakdown as a character has seemed to be played as normal amongst the others.

The whole thing has pretty much been played straight, unless I'm missing something (always a possibility).

[catsi563]

part of the issue im seeing with this latest chapter is a lot of people expecting Naruto to remain the cute loveable knuckleheaded goofball we all saw at the beginning of the manga.

simply put that cannot happen. the meer child w eknew at the beggiing of the manga could not become hokage. quite honestly i would be surprised that kid could walk and breath at the same time. and emotionally he was someone who was ruled by fits of emotion. he defined the word impulsive to a near suicidal degree. a trait which could have gotten him and his teamates killed on more than one occasion and nearly did in the battle against haku.

this is a naruto who is fianlly ready to lay the foundations of being hokage. he has it rock bottom, and when one hits bottom only then can they can begin to climb.

now Naruto has to start maturing and growing, he can no longer remain the sheltered little kid he was. he knows far too much now and must assimilate that information or die. than all the sacrafices he and his friends have made would be pointless.

or he can live and really start to build the new world he promised Jiraiya and Nagato he would.

[HikariUzumaki]

To have some dignity. Being shot down is not the end. Naruto's not stupid; he had to know full well begging wasn't going to work on a man like the Raikage.

That sure wasn't Naruto's first time at the dance. But it was sure the first time he acted that pitifully. Naruto's changed a lot of minds through action; to suddenly have him toss dignity aside and beg like that does not seem like something the impulsive knucklehead who worms his way into everyones heads would do. I mean, it's not the first time he's been shot down by a disbelieving party and sure not the first time he's been shot down by someone who wants Sasuke dead, which would be pretty much the world at this point.

Long story short, it rang false and like something a weaker character might do, not the character we've been following for pretty much the entire manga.

Or maybe I was fooled into thinking Naruto was stronger than he is; but Kishi seemed to be pushing that for most of the manga at least partway into Part 2, so I like to think that if such is the case, I had enough reason to think that way.

I think here you're not totally setting things on context.

I've talked (or maybe fought will be a closer expression >>) a lot with my friends about this, but it is very hard to remember sometimes: Naruto is a JAPANESE manga. We're not going to see some things done as we will spect them to be done in occident.

I'll explain. Naruto has always been an unruly kid who had no manners. But when he was in front of the Raikage, and used his own cards, they did not worked. The Raikage was too angry to attend a bratty kid who was asking for the impossible. So what did Naruto do? What a japanese would do: drop to his knees, follow the rules, try to show a good and respectfull image. I'm sure Naruto is not the only manga you've read, so I hope you woud agree. Sometimes, we really need to remember the socials rules from the country of what are we reading.

It's the same as saying that the hug had no romantic connotations: yes, it did, because japanese people doesn't hug that way. The body contact among japanese people is almost zero. A mere hand brushing in a shojo is a great issue that makes the girl blush. So we probably are not going to have a kiss scene, not even at the end and with any pairing, because they japanese doesn't do things that way. It may be hinted, maybe a familiar scene, maybe two holding hands... but I won't hope for a kiss (not that I won't love to have!).

As I already said, give him a break. And I'll love to see Minato again thanks to that dismay, as someone suggested.

[Nate River]

Batman can pull off a lot of things other people can't; like being a Pirate and dropkicking a shark.

When I see Sasuke dropkick a shark, then maybe I might not completely dismiss him.

Too late.

Kisame already died in that craptacular fight.

[Codus N]

Danzou saying Sasuke ignored Itachi's will is a thumbs-up for me.

[Froot]

Oh, hey, I just noticed we got new emoticons.

:True:

Noice

Aaanyways... Yes, I agree with everyone. It's pretty stressful, and it's about time he broke. He's just a kid.

But he's a shinobi, too.

The kind that just gets up and brushes himself off. If the rest of the manga is any indication, and the pattern follows, soon, he will just get up and brush himself off again.

That is, after all, why I liked Naruto in the first case. Why everyone else in the village and even outside the village liked him.

Edited by Froot, 17 December 2009 - 01:42 PM.

[tricksie]

- Someone posted about Kakashi going after Sakura, and him getting some time with his last student. I hadn't thought about it before, but it would work right into a Sakura arc that she gets some extra training with Kakashi, when she's had none before and Tsunade is out of commission.

- Also, I thought the Naruto hyperventilating thing was just a way to keep him from having to choose Sakura just yet. He will now be forced back to the village, not allowed to make a choice whether to pursue her or not (by forced I mean he's going to wake up in the hospital, and we'll never know if he was going to go after her or not).

And I agree with catsi here, it's totally believable that the poor guy's going to have a meltdown. So the passing out in the snow thing is no biggie to me, not so terribly ooc. It's easy for him to stand up in really scary situations when everybody else is freaked out - that's what gets him going and makes him different. He has a hard time accepting personal failures and emotional stuff (Jiraiya's death, Sasuke disregarding him after the timeskip, etc.). His whole life's purpose has just been ripped away from him. He's entitled to a freakout.

this is a naruto who is finally ready to lay the foundations of being hokage. he has it rock bottom, and when one hits bottom only then can they can begin to climb.

Too true. Tsunade said the key ingredient to be an excellent med-nin is desperation, but it applies throughout the manga. Both he and Sakura have to be put in desperate situations before they can grow to overcome them.

And we don't know if the kyuubi or Itachi's power will play a role here either. What makes him tick on the inside is totally different from everyone else. He's got two other super powers bouncing around inside him besides his own. Yowza, that's a party in your head!

- If Naruto ends up back in the village for a length of time, Kishi could really drag this out by bringing Hinata into the picture simultaneously with Sakura vs. Sasuke. So that their two romantic journeys parallel each other — with Naruto and Sakura choosing each other in the end. Yay! But I think the Hinata confession thing was left unfinished for a reason. I think he's going to force Naruto to make a choice at some point, the boy can't get off scott free all the time.

- Strange statement by Kakashi: Sakura may be going to end her life as well (or something like that). Was he implying that she was planning on taking out Sasuke along with herself? That she has no hope of surviving, instead may be going to try to take Sasuke down with her? Yikes on the foreshadowing. Hope he gets there soon.

And sneaky Sai, trying to keep her away from Sasuke. He's going to try out some of his fake expressions: "Sakura is that a baby wolf?" "Huh, where?" "Oh you must of just missed it. Anyway, back to looking for Sasuke."

[Kenny-kun]

I have an interesting theory if anyone would like to listen.

What if Naruto does go back to the village and he is with Hinata. Hinata has her opportunity now to be with Naruto, but she says to him instead "I love you, but I also want you to be happy no matter what. You need to go after her and tell her how you truly feel or you will regret it forever. No matter what happens, I will always be here for you." Naruto then snaps out of his state of mind, says thank you Hinata and then goes after Sakura.

I know NaruHina fans would probably rave saying it makes the couple canon, but if this did happen I would give a whole lot of new respect for Hinata and wonder what Hinata would say if she herself said that Naruto needs to be with Sakura?

I know Hinata is not a bad character, but she would gain so many points if she did this.

Dude, we've been down this road before. Your theory sounds nice, but ask yourself: Does that really sound like something Kishi would do?

Hinata is the LEAST of concerns here. If anything, I don't think Kishi is brainless enough to have Naruto simply go back to the village while Kakashi talks Sakura OUT OF confronting Sasuke. Then again, I once said that about Kubo and some of his choices and look how that turned out.

[Derock]

Am I the only person knows for a fact that Naruto cannot go back to the village because he's right now in the state of unconciousness?

People, he and Yamato cannot go back there right now!! If a person's hyperventilating, especially in the cold weather Naruto is in at the moment, that person needs to head for the nearest building so he/she can rest (the hotel right in front is a good choice) and no, please don't assume Yamato can make a house as they starting to head out because that's just a waste of chakra as it is.

And also, the mentioning of the idea of going back was spoken right before Naruto begun his breakdown. That suggestion right now has basically left the building because of the scene.

What's the point of Naruto going back? If this happen, it will encourge the already crazy fandom claiming that their "goddess" will return for NaruHina of happening, forgetting the statement that Hinata isn't the important character of the entire series.

I already predict, and it will happen, after the breakdown, Naruto will recover and makes his decision of going after Sakura and team and encounters Sasuke.

Now we have to watch what old geezer Danzo is planning while battling against Sasuke...

[Nick Soapdish]

Naruto's attitude change is really dragging me down. All the things he's known for (his confidence, spirit, determination) are being thrown out the window. I know he has a lot going on, but really, passing out and all the dramatics? That's not like him at all. Normally he just gets upset, thinks about it, and then finds the will to do something about it. I want funny, confident Naruto back

This chapter does look cool, but I wanna see more of what's gonna happan to Sakura and co. I hope they meet up soon and we get some interesting fights

I think that's what is happening now. He's just still on the upset and thinking about it stage. Soon, he'll bounce back and find the will to do something.

This is possible, though not in the way you may think. It would be out of character for Hinata to say she loves him in that way. Her confession was the exception to the rule. Also Kishimoto is more subtle with feelings for the most part while he can be blunt in some occasions his tendencies are more subtle.

However that said a brief conversation between the two would not be out of the question and would more than likley result in a similar scenario with Naruto going after Sakura.

I think Kishi is going to have his characters be more blunt. There have been a lot of fairly open pairing moments in the last half year (437, 450, 458-9, 469-70). Despite that bluntness, there's still ambiguity in how to interpret them, but it wouldn't surprise me to be seeing more open conversations in the near future.

[Miss Soupy]

Kind of a strange chapter...and I have to say, I actually liked what was going on between Sasuke and Danzou more than this continued turmoil Naruto is experiencing (as if the past few chapters didn't hint at that enough). Though, I agree kishimoto is probably creating an opportunity for Naruto to make a decision now rather than returning to Konoha to do it.

I didn't like Kakashi calling Sakura's mission a death march. Sai just got done explaining that she wasn't stupid, and I have to agree with him on that. I think Sakura knows full well she is no match against Sasuke upfront. I wonder how Sai thinks he can stop Sakura from her mission though. Usually his best method is truth no jutsu. If he explained to Sakura that Naruto is having a break down, I wonder if that would stop her XD

So I guess Danzou was able to use genjutsu on the all mighty Sasuke? Heh, with a sharingan battle, it could end up next chapter that the shocked Sasuke is just a genjutsu as well. It'll be confusing, no doubt XD

[Nick Soapdish]

I understand that there are NaruSaku fans discouraged by recent chapters. Sakura is rushing to confront Sasuke and we know that she still has feelings for him. And now, Naruto might be going back to the village where Hinata is and we know she has feelings for him.

I'm not discouraged at all.

We've had pretty consistent development from chapter 3 on. Not in every chapter by any means, but there's still been a lot of it. I'm still very confident.

A Hinata moment is possible (although Naruto isn't exactly in a condition to be moved, but they may ignore that). That doesn't mean that NaruHina will happen. Her crush needs to be dealt with sometime. Some NaruSaku fans think that her confession and response to chapter 450 was that, but I think it'll be more overt.

In my opinion, these things had to happen some time. I think that NaruHina and SasuSaku are too important to be resolved with one of the parties absent. They need a face-off.

Naruto and Hinata need to have a conversation and she needs to get to show that she's gotten strong and can stand for herself. So far, I think her development has been too tied into her feelings for Naruto and emulating him. This would show otherwise.

Sakura and Sasuke also need a face-off. She's cutting him loose, but that's not the same as letting go of how she sees him. She (and Naruto) have only had that very brief encounter back when Orochimaru was still around and things have changed a lot since then. She's heard of some of these changes, but hasn't seen them for herself.

Naruto needs that same face-to-face sometime. And no, I don't think that either are going to be able to let go of Sasuke, but they may be able to accept Sasuke as he is, not just as they remember him. And yeah, I still think Sasuke is going to be redeemed somehow.

[dl316bh]

I'll explain. Naruto has always been an unruly kid who had no manners. But when he was in front of the Raikage, and used his own cards, they did not worked. The Raikage was too angry to attend a bratty kid who was asking for the impossible. So what did Naruto do? What a japanese would do: drop to his knees, follow the rules, try to show a good and respectfull image. I'm sure Naruto is not the only manga you've read, so I hope you woud agree. Sometimes, we really need to remember the socials rules from the country of what are we reading.

Except he broke down crying at the same time. It doesn't come across as him trying to be respectful. Just desperate and pathetic. That's the part that's stuck with me the most. He broke down, bawled and begged a Kage. That doesn't come off like a show of respect I've ever seen in a manga.

Also, no, Naruto isn't my only manga. I've read several over time. This is one of the only one's I've followed as it's been published, however, and the large drop in quality isn't something I've been finding easy to forgive. It doesn't help when I see a character I really like act as he has been lately.

Too late.

Kisame already died in that craptacular fight.

Eh, that's okay. A fight with Kisame would just prove my point. That Sasuke isn't awesome enough to think to use a flying kick to the face. Just the power of emo and angst. Which seem to have gotten him a lot farther than one might expect.

Edited by dl316bh, 17 December 2009 - 08:39 PM.

[Evil Potato]

Dang, Naruto hit his breaking point huh... well I guess this may be a good thing for his development, instead of making him an invinsible, hardened, emotionless person, Kishi lets him reach his breaking point. Very interesting, but I sure didn't expect it.

Sasuke has very good control over his MS now, but Danzou is proving to be more trouble than he thought, I guess we all knew Danzou was stronger than anyone expected.

Sure hope this fight finishes up, Naruto wakes up and heads off for Sakura, and then Naruto vs. Sasuke - the actual round 2.

[tricksie]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I dislike both Kakashi and Sai's statements about Sakura.

Kakashi says that she may be planning on killing herself, and Sai very patronizingly says he personally will keep her away from Sasuke for as long as he can. Both statements are belittling of her to some extent.

I really, really, really hope this is just a setup for the Sakura arc, that the ones who are closest to her do not understand her (Naruto) and are underestimating her (Naruto and Kakashi). I hope she surprises them, that she really does have a plan and/or has a kickin' fight with Sasuke.

But right now, both their attitudes are that she's running headlong into danger on a fool's errand to try to stop Sasuke. And that they need to go stop the little girl before she hurts herself. Ugh!

I hope Kishimoto does right by Sakura!

[Smiter]

Hm, that was an unexpected development there.

I note that several people here think Naruto is being too weak and maybe out of character. But this is a very personal fight for Naruto. The Pain fight was much simpler for Naruto. To him, it was simply "protect Konoha from bad guy", and that fit in perfectly with his beliefs, his drive to protect those he loves.

But this is different. Naruto has always had this life plan; drag Sasuke back, somehow win Sakura's heart (even if he THINKS she'll only love Sasuke), and become Hokage. That dream has always been his anchor point, something that held him steady as he faced down increasingly stronger foes and dealt with his own personal problems (such as Jiraiya's death). No matter what, Naruto had always believed that Sasuke would still have good left in him and he could appeal to that.

In the space of a few days, Naruto has heard how Sasuke has become truly dark, Sakura has confessed to him, and now she has decided to stop Sasuke by force - even if it means killing him. Naruto is an orphan without any family, and he has always valued bonds far more than the average person. He has always thought of Sasuke as his brother, Jiraiya as his grandfather, Tsunade as his grandmother, and Sakura as The One (as in love, NOT the Matrix). Now two of his most precious people may kill each other.

Boom. Naruto's anchor has fallen apart, and he's overwhelmed because it's all so personal to him. He can't think about taking a step back and a couple of deep breaths.

Imagine your brother and your love trying to kill each other. It can't be easy to be objective about that kind of thing.

I agree that it looks unlikely Naruto will go back to Konoha now that he's passed out, unless Yamato carries him (which would make him vulnerable if enemies were to attack them on their way back). I'm not sure what will happen to Naruto now, but it's clear he needs a wise head or two to help put him back on track. I'm not convinced Kakashi will be able to stop Sakura in time, but we'll see.

If Naruto were to return to Konoha in that state, I'd put my money on Tsunade turning up (looking a little older), and giving Naruto some much needed maternal advice.

[Nee-sama]

The first thing I thought of when Naruto passed out was the Kyuubi, I'm just wondering if we wont see a bit of conversation before he wakes up. Kyuubi is an individual that acts out in response to things that make him upset, and Naruto has been doing a lot of nothing since the Pain fight. It makes me think he must be getting charged up with anxiety, which would explain his hyperventilating.

Like Smiter said, Naruto has lost his mission in life, as well as his mentor, and now he must feel like he's losing all his friends. The image of Team 7 shattering in his mind plays into this significantly. It's as if he's being thrown back into the loneliness of his childhood. He's losing the people that stood behind him since the day he became a shinobi (referring to the image from the rescue-Gaara arc.)

I think like Catsi said, this may help to mature him enough to be a kage. That is if he can learn to stand up on his own and be independent. There's no one who can save him now, he needs to be able to save himself.