85 replies to this topic

[Fallen_Angel]

Actually, I never hated yaoi as much until I actually became acqainted with the Naruto fandom, and then I realized I hated it. And the very fact that this topic even exist on a site dedicated to a het couple only makes me hate it more. As someone posted, it's as if you can't enjoy a single anime/manga ect. without some yaoi fan bringing up the topic of what two guys look good doing one another. Dear god why? And the most favored reply by yaoi fans are, if you don't like, don't look/read. Well, that's all fine and dandy, except it is not we who enjoy het stuff who are impeding into your section of the sand box but the other way around.

Naruto is not nor will it ever be shounen-ai, nor is bleach, or Inuyasha, or Vampire Knight or Beserk, and yet i can find more yaoi related materials for these fandoms then I can the latter. And again this is when I am looking for the het stuff which makes it allt he more annoying. I am a heterosexual female. I like...no... love men. I love everything about them from the exotic flavors they come in all the way down to the interaction these men have with the opposite sex. I love the male female dynamic. Thus I seek things that reflect my interest. I don't actively nor passively seek yaoi. In fact, I go out of my way to avoid it, but I am still forced to be bothered with it in places I would expect not to find it at all. So is it g bad? The genre itself not particularly. I don't like it, and never will. Albeit I have written yaoi before. What I truly despise about yaoi is more the fanbase, and their need to make yaoi a topic when it has nothing to do with most series that are over run with the stuff. That's what I find bad about it.

Now that i am back i see that some one here has the same views as i do. Yet for me i have never written a yuri/yaoi story but i have to say that, since i have been gone, I have learned a bit more about it, and yes i do agree with ebonyrose that it is the Fandom and not the stories. Yes some stories get out of hand even without the yaoi or yuri or even some mixtures but every time i turn around for every one stories come out about five to ten yuri/yaoi stories. so i have to filter out them.

I have to say that yes i have read one yuri, and that was while i was gone, beautiful story but i just couldnt get into it for that one reason. And it kinda got my attention in the sense that, even if you could get rid of yaoi/yuri, it will always be there....so i have my almost final statement...*sigh*

Yaoi/Yuri stories can be well written and very well thought out but if you are not a fan of it then you probally wont recommend it to your friends. So we cant change Yaoi/Yuri writers, let them be and go off and talk with others that are of the same. I mean you dont have to shun them, just filter it out. My life has gone thru much considering my friend just came out of the closet with his sis even saying that she too was not straight. (i know it doesnt have to do with Yaoi/Yuri but it goes along with my post) It kinda surprised me and yet it for some reason didnt bother me b/c i knew who he was...so should be the characters, you have seen the way they are, much like Naruto, you know he loves Sakura and he loaths Sasake but it cant be helped that some people just seem to think that there are things inbetween the lines when there is not. You know your fav. characters...so dont fuss over it.
Beleive me i agree with ebonyrose but not in the way i like guys... I love girl instead XP

Have a good day/nite,
And i hope i didnt confuse or hurt anyone in the progress i have made since my last post

Fallen Angel...

[Jin]

When I am reading a fanfic be it about Naruto or Harry Potter or any number of things. I want the basic psychology and characterizations of the characters to remain true to what the original creator/author inteded. Focusing specifically on Naruto the only real spot I can Yaoi working is with Haku and Zabuza or maybe some weird LeeGai thing. I truthfully don't even like to see fanfiction that has Naruto with Ino cause like I said it just goes completely against anything that has been shown to be plausible in the original source material. I do not personally have anything against Yaoi cause I myself am bisexual, but if it is in a fan fic it better fit the psychology of the character.

[whoamii]

Ok, now I have no problem with people who are gay and I guess you could write all teh Yaoi and Yuri fanfics you want, but I won't read it. No big lost.

It actually pisses me off, though, that I can't go through one list of fanfiction without running in to a Yaoi and/or Yuri unless it has been specified that it is not allowed.

[JABR]

Forgive me if this has been pointed out or mentioned before.

But there is a tradition in Asian cinema as it relates to Martial arts movies and shows, that emphasizes the strong bond between men. The stories tend to revolve around them, their decisions and their lives and bond. The women were presented as almost an afterthought. I would happen to guess that, that paticular bond/philosophy and its appearance in modern anime/manga, have fueled many a fandom on the subject of Yaoi.

[twintailednin29]

ummm honestly i dont really like yaoi or yuuri. i dont read any fan fic with it cuz most of the time its not good. but if you like or support yaoi or yuuri that okay cuz i mean its a free country n u can have ur own opinion

[CIchor]

I've been reading fanfiction for a while and at first I was strictly into Het parings. Shaman King was my first fandom and I got started to read this really good fic that had shonen-ai and my fav het paring. I was like: Cuttte! and that's when it started.

So, as for Yaoi or Yuri, I don't have a problem with either and I don't think it has to do with whether it is good or bad; it's just your preference when you read that stuff. Usually a good author can make anything work. Regardless of pairings as long as the characters aren't OOC stories of both het and yaoi genres can work. I guess I'm kinda in the middle, like I've read NaruSasu, and other pairings. A lot of yaoi will bash Sakura, I don't read those ones.


Anyway, pairing wars are not fun. Although, NARUSAKU is my favorite Het pairing. That also goes for Girl!NarutoxSakura, that's great yuri crack.

[Blue Jeans]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Yaoi or Yuri, except that like every other overused device of plot it has been abused... and unlike many overused devices it has not only been abused badly it's a rather delicate topic which leads to much debate.

I have nothing against it, but let's go over how it's abused.

1) Just like I see that it is insulting to change perfectly gay or bi-sexual people into straight people in a homophobic's fantasy story, I find it equally insulting to change perfectly straight people into bi or gay people. Not everyone is in the closet just waiting to burst out. Sure there are those whose sexual preferences the anime or manga that are left ambiguous - purposely or not - but for some characters it's as obvious they're straight as others are gay. Please, don't mess with gender preference. It's insulting either way you do it (and OOC), no matter how hot or popular that particular couple may be. (Dodges rotten tomatoes )

2) Another common mistake when it comes to yaoi/yuri is that like a bad fic that makes perfectly gay couples straight, and in this case, the other way around, they tend to be OOC. Now, not all OOC fics are bad, which is why not all Yaoi/Yuri OOC fics are bad, but it's still OOC. And since rarely do you have good fics that are IC, now imagine of all the OOC fics, how many are good when they've already committed the taboo of not taking the characterization of a fandom seriously. I mean, a writer working with other people's characters... they should be in character. Otherwise, why not write your own stories with your own characters if all that writer does is borrow the name and then stuck their own personalities however they felt like it? The OOC. Really not attractive. And it's hard to keep someone in character when you've changed a fundamental aspect of their characterization - like their sexual preference! (I know, the epiphanies just keeps on coming!)

3) Lack of plot. When someone write a yaoi/yuri, they not only forget characterization, they tend to leave out this interesting little thing called plot. It is sacrificed for the greater good of a couple/getting two guys or girls together at the writer's whim. So, not only do you lack a sense-making buildup, but you lack any coherent storyline that may interest someone on... oh... I don't know... character-development? A reason for the story to exist beyond the smut. Things like that.

4) The catalyst of realization is so abused it's more disgusting than amusing now. Rape, in no way, makes you realize that you are gay or straight or bi. Rape is traumatizing. It's not romantic! It's not easy and it's a confusing, difficult, and often conflicting topic for all kinds of people who are ignorant on the subject. The way it's used as a catalyst to get pairings together, especially in the yaoi/yuri community, is sickening. Please, this plot device, if used at all, should be done in a manner by someone who have some understanding of the topic - not necessarily actual personal experience, but research, case studies, at least SOME RESPECT for the topic that's being handled! For goodness sake, it's not a toy to be used so STOP using it recklessly!

So, do good yaoi/yuri exist? Sure! It's hard enough finding good fics on canon couples who are already gay/straight. It's even harder to find OOC, plot-driven stories on characters whose gender preference have been changed to suit the author's own opinions or desires. Sometimes it's one person whose sexual preference is changed - easier to do - and sometimes it's both... but if possible, show respect for characters in the story and keep them at least the same way as they were depicted in the show/story. That's why you love them right? RIGHT?!

;_;

Please be nice and don't make them more OOC then necessary! You should love them for who they are! (Not who you want them to be!) That is, in the end, unconditional love, friends.

+_+

[Kalluri Vaanil]

What I am trying to say is that all the tangents you get in Japanese comic books about male friendships are just that. They are men who form bonds with one another. Just because they are friends doesn't mean they are inclined to homosexuality, but then you get these fans screaming at the top of their lungs that characters are really gay. It kind of reminds me about that comment that Opera Winfry made about her and a friend she is supposed to be a lesbian with or some crap. They share a very deep bond, but they aren't into each other sexually and there just doesn't seem to be a name for same sex relationships any more (that aren't sexual), and they are automatically dubbed as homosexuality.

You? FTW.

This one just makes my blood boil. I understand that Sasuke and Naruto's close bond can be good for yaoi fanfics or whatever... but just because Naruto is intent on getting Sasuke back and shares a close brotherly (yes, brotherly. Last I checked, Naruto wondered if having a brother felt like it did with Sasuke, and I'm sure that Naruto knows that you don't kitten your brother) bond with Sasuke in canon, even if they're not related by blood, means that they are homosexual. Again, I understand how this could be good fodder for yaoi. I'm not telling you to stop writing your yaoi fanfics. But when you tell me that Sasuke and Naruto are gay for real in CANON? Then it's on, fangirls.

What I find most hypocritical is that a lot of SasuNaru fangirls are anti-NaruSaku or NaruHina and think that both of them are one-sided. Atleast both of them HAVE a romantic side to them- what does SasuNaru have? It's what I'd call NONE-SIDED, for their bond is brotherly. Grow up and quit trying to twist character relationships to suit your fangirlish needs, really.

Can't guys be best friends without wanting to ram eachother up their asses?

Sex doesn't always = love, ladies. ANYBODY can have sex with ANYONE. Prostitutes don't love their clients. High school boys don't always love the cheerleaders they kitten. When you say "Oh you're so closeminded and stupid because you don't like two boys loving each other" you are just feeding me nothing but bullsh**. Oh, I had no idea that Sasuke and Naruto had a big, romantic, in-depth romantic-relation thing going on. I just thought they were a couple of cute characters who get raped by stupid fangirls.

And here are some more sweet yaoi rants:

http://azusa.leamond...aoi-rant-1.html
http://azusa.leamond...aoi-rant-2.html

And anyone who knows the english VA for Ed from Full Metal Alchemist, here's a treat for you:

http://www.youtube.c...c...ted&search=

[Gnosismaster]

I don't mind Yuri, its yaoi that I hate.

[MagusKyros]

I hate Yaoi.

I simultaneously hate and like Yuri.

[Blue Jeans]

This one just makes my blood boil. I understand that Sasuke and Naruto's close bond can be good for yaoi fanfics or whatever... but just because Naruto is intent on getting Sasuke back and shares a close brotherly (yes, brotherly. Last I checked, Naruto wondered if having a brother felt like it did with Sasuke, and I'm sure that Naruto knows that you don't kitten your brother) bond with Sasuke in canon, even if they're not related by blood, means that they are homosexual. Again, I understand how this could be good fodder for yaoi. I'm not telling you to stop writing your yaoi fanfics. But when you tell me that Sasuke and Naruto are gay for real in CANON? Then it's on, fangirls.

That's completely true, especially since a main argument for those who are anti-NaruSaku is that they're like brother and sister. Umm... not really. Naruto has consistently acted in the same way a guy does when he's romantically interested in a girl. It's Sasuke who he has firmly stated to be like a brother to him. Sasuke also replied in kind that Team 7 is like his family. So, if anyone have any incestuous qualms about couples, SasuNaru should hit that nail pretty hard on the head since it's been a STATED FACT. But then again, we're talking about the some of the same people who write and support slash Itachi and Sasuke together, and that's just wrong on so many different levels that it's just EW! EWWWWWWWWW!!!!

There's a line in fandom for certain topics that just should not be crossed. Unfortunately, some fans cross that line frequently and in all the wrong manners, not only easily but without a backward glance. That just really disturb me on too many levels to count. And shouta is not sexy people. It's young boys getting raped and seduced by old perverts. Why would you EVER reduce beloved characters to that level of deprivity? It is NOT hot! KakaNaru? KakaSasu? What the hell is wrong with you? Especially since Sasuke views Kakashi as another father figure! Do you know how wrong and incestruous that ACTUALLY is?!

BLARG!!!

(I admit that there are good yaoi stories, even if they make perfectly straight or ambiguous characters gay but 99.99999999% of it is crap and just fan-girls playing in fantasy-land with OOC characters who bear the name of my beloved characters. And it's so painful that I rarely go read yaoi fics. It's just not worth the pain, trying to find one that's decent.)

[Gnosismaster]

I hate Yaoi.

I simultaneously hate and like Yuri.

Huh???

[Pocky-chan]

I like yaoi, yuri, and het all in the same level. Canon, crack, my cup of tea, I'll like it all the way; which ever it is. Like Desaix mention some point in the beginning, it's the bad writers that make yaoi and yuri go bad to the rotten egg.

Before, I would hate yuri because every fic I read that contains yuri involved carnal sex and the girls going horny 24/7. Yaoi was just as bad too... except the guys were less horny and more romantic in some ways. The one thing I hated about Yaoi was the ultra fem-bashing. Everything else was fine by me. I hate to see a wonderful female leading character getting hit by some unsuspecting bulldozer just because people like to be delusional and claim some unrealistic yaoi love to be true.

Face it, if there's a canon pairing and leading male has super hot best friend, it's obvious that hormonal raging fangirls would choose the ladder rather than the truth. And use an excuse to use OOC to extreme evil on the poor leading girl, just because they're jealous.

Like... for example...

Riku, Sora, and Kairi from Kingdom Hearts.

Some people have to portray Kairi as the b*tch, just so they can have an excuse to get Riku into Sora's pants.

Kairi is a good girl, no need to rotten her name. Just 'cause Sore has the hots for her, doesn't mean she'll likely be a slut, break his heart, and laugh cruelly while doing so.

[Blayze]

Are the characters in question straight? If so, then don't sully them with yaoi or yuri. The reverse is True. And yes, many a fandom has been ruined by idiots flooding it with bad yaoi fanfiction. Naruto. One Piece. Gundam. Inuyasha. Evangelion. I fully expect Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann yaoi once the dub is released.

[Chidori Mistress]

No problem with Homosexuality as a whole but...
Yaoi/Yuri is just h*** Hentai and I don't like Hentai.
I also don't like the way Yaoi has dominated fandom.
Believe it or not I get rabid fangirls kittening at me for not believing SasuNaru will happen!

[Skyflower]

Hum! A debate! How lovely.

Well, I have to say that I dislike a lot of the yaoi and yuri circulating the web. However, I'm fond of shounen-ai and shoujo-ai. That is, so long as the characters involved are not out of character. That's the easy answer, at least.

My real life preferences have nothing to do with my interests in fandom. I obsess over the canon, and won't even begin to write for a pairing if I think I can't do it without bias. On a similar note, I will ship pairings that I won't write, and I will write pairings that I won't ship. In other words, I'll support pairings that have canon hints even if I don't like them, but I won't support a pairing that has no hints, even though I write for it. Now that we have that out of the way, here's what I think about fanworks in relation to shounen-ai and shoujo-ai (and to a lesser extent, yaoi and yuri).

In my opinion, all kinds of fiction should involve character development, and a plot. I think there was once a person who said that the difference between American cartoons and Japanese ones was that the former made characters to fit around its plot, whereas the latter made a plot to fit around its characters. In my mind, that means that a plot is a means of character development. Now, in fanfiction, a fan shouldn't really be trying to develop the characters, per se. What we should be doing is taking the author's character, as defined in their original work, and making an informed guess as to how they would react in certain situations. Of course, some parameters will need to be set. I think I'm safe in assuming that we all need to have a fairly good understanding of the things a character would not do before we even begin thinking about writing them, never mind the things that they might do. It's quite possible to mess with those parameters a little, so long as you have a really, really good plot that would affect the characters in just the right way, but fics like that are so rare that I can count them on the fingers of one hand. Sure, be as creative as you want, just so long as the characters don't abruptly start having completely different thought patterns. Sasuke will never be weepy or touchy-feely. It's unlikely that Kakashi will ever give up his porn. And for the love of all things holy, Hinata is not going to suddenly seduce Naruto. Even things that are less obvious than those few can be just as bad. At some point, it just stops being fanfiction.

Nooow, sexual preferences? Those of most teens can change on a whim. Granted, it depends a great deal upon the personality of the individual, but a whole lot of it also depends upon their environment. We're going deeper than personal beliefs and opinions here; We're talking sociology and deep subconsciousness -the reasons that they even have those beliefs and opinions. In fandom, you can only get a vague idea of a character's subconscious from their actions, their known history (if applicable), and the society into which they were born. From all of that, you can make guesses as to how they think, and then how they act. Needless to say, you have to be good at psychological reverse-engineering. To say that anybody is "definitely straight" or "definitely gay" is silly. None of us are psychic, and unless the author announces all of his or her characters' preferences, we're never going to know for sure. The best way to go in this situation is to assume that every character is bisexual, but again, use common sense. A character that shows open disgust towards homosexuality, has been abused by or had bad experiences with homosexual people, or is in a society where homosexuality is a taboo equal to murder is going to be far less likely to suddenly take a romantic interest in their friend of the same gender. A homosexual relationship is still possible, but it's so far off the charts of plausibility that it's barely even worth the risk of OOC to explore. That's usually not the case in Naruto, though. So we have to keep guessing. Just because a character "likes girls" or "likes guys", or shows a bad reaction to a perceived come on, does not mean that they are gay or straight. They could like both genders, sometimes without even realizing it, or they could have other aversions to the person coming on to them besides that person's gender, or any number of other things! Heck, they might not even have the slightest interest in romantic relationships at all. It happens often enough in real life. So what should really be debated is what character would or would not have an interest in whom, and other reasons for such. Blanket statements like "he/she is straight" or "he/she is gay", which are too generalized, don't help anything.

The Narutoverse is a field day for people who like sociology and psychology. It's so complex and diverse that there are almost endless possibilities. That's why I write fanfiction. I like to play with the characters' minds, trying to figure out what they might or might not think or do. To me, a pairing is just a catalyst. It's only as important as the way it affects the characters in it. So it really shouldn't be the entire focus of the creative work.




So there you go. My two little cents. I like to think that nobody's opinion is better or worse than anybody else's, you know? =3


Edit: I just realized that half of what I just said has already been stated. And I almost feel like I'm necroposting anyways. But meh, I'm so used to posting on forums and communities where opinion rules all. It's nice to have a change.

Anyways, since my head is spinning right now, I won't say any more. Though I would like to continue on this topic. Debates are love, no matter how bad I am at them. <3

[Vicious]

I oppose intamacy between two men.
I mean sure it doesn't have to be between a certain girl or a certain guy, but keep things straight it can't possibly that hard. I say this because I believe that it's mostly the girls that write yaoi fics, girls are goo writers, soooo I'd prefer them at least giving us guys a bone sometimes. I of course mean a story, the last sentence was in no ways misleading.

Edited by Saint Michael, 24 May 2009 - 09:06 AM.

[True]

Merged with existing thread. Be respectful and don't bash etc; etc;

I don't mind yaoi/yuri I just tend to dislike their rabid fandoms, but that's pretty much every pairing fandom and yaoi fangirls are easier to spot and discriminate against. While the stereotypical view is that they are 13-4 year old teenage girls who seem to be interested in shounen-ai, there are of course those who fit the "normal" category and can write such a captivating perspective you'd figure they were written by someone who has had homosexual experience.

Again its all about how people define "love" and character dynamic to make possible yaoi/yuri pairings plausible. I can understand NaruSasu being a realistic pair since Kishimoto has put yaoi sub tones between the two and and it appeals to shounen-ai fans who always use these subtle little "hints" to elaborate on the dynamic between the two characters and expand on from there.

Favorite (and only one that I really could care for) yaoi pairing is Gutts/Griffith from Berserk.