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#61 morgaine4

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:31 AM

Madara directly compared Tsunade's ability to Hashirama's which is apparently the result of his Sage Mode. Moreover the markings that appear on the forehead appear to be similar. I think this reinforces my theory of Byakugou being the Curse Seal equivalent to SSM (in some principals).

 

Good point, but there's no reason to believe that Tsunade's Byakugou would be limited by the techniques of Mito's.  Isn't the seal essentially a) a chakra storage unit and b) a tool coded with specific jutsu.  Tsunade could have coded a technique that's similar to Hashirama's Sage Mode into her Byakugou seal, but that doesn't mean that Hashirama had a summoning contract with Katsuyu (he could, but I'm not sure).

 

Though Hashirama's SM had forehead markings, they look very different --Tsunade's and Sakura's are diamond like, while Hashirama's was circles within circles (looked like the Haruno symbol, right?).



#62 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:34 AM

The chakra that Naruto was using at the time was Kurama's Yang half. Yang Release was explained as the ability to instill life into the lifeless. Zetsu is essentially portions of the Jubi's empty husk intermixed with Hashirama's Senju DNA. It's logical to assume that the chakra would have an effect on him since he is the very essence of Yang.

The Mokuton was shown to be replicative through the insertion of Hashirama's DNA. It's obviously related to genetic material. And the Shikkotsu area is supposedly a bone forest, not a vegetative one. There's undoubtedly a connecting element between the Mokuton and the Jubi, but a connection to the slugs seems far fetched.

One other thing. Didn't you mention some time back that you post an explanation to the whole senjutsu training regiment in the SSM topic? That would be interesting to read. There might have been a detail from the sage training explanation that was overlooked by myself or the other person who were involved as dissidents.

Well the Juubi's empty shell was cultivated from Hashirama's dna, so the fact that it's made out of his DNA and that it turned into this tree, makes you wonder, so to speak.

As for SM, yes, I do.  I have been out of town for some days and had no computer access and from the phone is hella hard to type, lol.

I plan on writing it a bit later [need to do some house chores atm :P ]


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#63 Codus N

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that it's possible that Katsuyu is the only resident of the SF, in which case summoning all of Katsuyu could be comparable to summoning all the residents of MM or all the residents of RC.

 

Considering Katsuyu's connection to the Byakugou, it seems less likely that Hashirama signed a contract with Katsuyu, but more likely that Mito did...?

 

Also, this chapter essentially confirmed what I'd been saying before, the fodders didn't die "because" little Katsuyus were attached to them, but despite the fact that little Katsuyus were attached to them.  If that were not the case, then summoning .1 of Katsuyu would not do much good.

 

Well, it is possible that while Mito could summon a 100% Katsuyu, she couldn't master SSM. But that would mean her chakra wasn't enough, which is confusing since Base Hashirama's chakra pool is comparable to that of a Bijuu (and Kurama, at that.) So I don't see how someone who could summon a 100% Katsuyu when it takes two Byakugou users to just summon 10% of Katsuyu, can't use SSM. Unless SSM has some more prerequisites, such as high body endurance to constantly use Slug Senjutsu.      

 

That seems like a reasonable assumption to make. From what was demonstrated in the manga in instances like the Alliance attempting to block the Jubi's Bijudama with weak Doton barriers, it's evident that quality is the superior over quantity. In the example, the shinobi would have been obliterated were it not for the intervention of the Hokages.

Now replace the two sides with Katsuyu and the frogs/snakes. The fact that frogs and snakes are so numerous should compensate for the disparity that exists between them and the slug; which enforces the equilibrium concept that Kishi has established between the three sides. But in Katsuyu's situation, it's technically more powerful than any one snake or frog. If you remove just a few frogs or snakes then imbalance is created in favour of the slug. In other words, the slug has an advantage over the other two because of its relative size and power comprised into one form (despite being equally powerful to the accumulative strength of all frogs and snakes).
 
I suppose you could also draw an analogy between Naruto/Sasuke's combined chakra form seen at the end of this chapter and Madara's fully armoured Kurama summoning.
 

Madara directly compared Tsunade's ability to Hashirama's which is apparently the result of his Sage Mode. Moreover the markings that appear on the forehead appear to be similar. I think this reinforces my theory of Byakugou being the Curse Seal equivalent to SSM (in some principals).

 

I do think SSM is Hashi's SM. But after now, I'm not so sure.

 

The idea that Katsuyu is supposedly as large as the Juubi is certainly ridiculous and sounds so much like an asspull of the highest order, But the idea of the power balance between the 3 sacred places does make it a viable explanation for Katsuyu's power and size.


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#64 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

Woah I'm really speechless with what just happened, and quite honestly I enjoyed every single thing that happened in this chapter. It looks Obito is about to use TnJ (could be wrong), Sakura's Byakogou seal,and that Bijuu Susanoo fusion.  

 

My review for the chapter: 

 

Good Review may friend



#65 Inferno180

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

I'm curious to see how after this fight, how the naruto vs Sasuke one will occur. I mean it's going to happen regardless. Things arnt just going to end with orochimaru standing around. Same with Madara, I get the feeling that next time Madara pops up, a new conflict begins and finally we move onto the final fight next year.

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#66 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

I'm curious to see how after this fight, how the naruto vs Sasuke one will occur. I mean it's going to happen regardless. Things arnt just going to end with orochimaru standing around. Same with Madara, I get the feeling that next time Madara pops up, a new conflict begins and finally we move onto the final fight next year.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if Team 7 took Madara down.



#67 morgaine4

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:01 AM

 

Well, it is possible that while Mito could summon a 100% Katsuyu, she couldn't master SSM. But that would mean her chakra wasn't enough, which is confusing since Base Hashirama's chakra pool is comparable to that of a Bijuu (and Kurama, at that.) So I don't see how someone who could summon a 100% Katsuyu when it takes two Byakugou users to just summon 10% of Katsuyu, can't use SSM. Unless SSM has some more prerequisites, such as high body endurance to constantly use Slug Senjutsu.      

 

Well, maybe Mito couldn't summon 100% of Katsuyu (unless it was with both her seal and both halves of Kuraama? or someting), especially if 100% Katsuyu = the entire population of frogs or snakes.

 

Honestly, if Hashirama had had some sort of relationship with Katsuyu/the slugs, wouldn't they have interacted/noted each others presence to some extent?  I don't know, I think it's unlikely that Hashirama had a relationship with the slugs, that his SM is SSM and I'm probably wrong.


Edited by morgaine4, 08 October 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#68 Tokura Misaki

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:07 AM

I've heard the Rin Tree theory somewhere. They said that the tree is possibly Rin. Any reactions/opinions regarding this one?



#69 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

I've heard the Rin Tree theory somewhere. They said that the tree is possibly Rin. Any reactions/opinions regarding this one?

Honestly I believe it's farfetched... I see no connection.


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#70 Tokura Misaki

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:13 AM

Honestly I believe it's farfetched... I see no connection.

 

True. I honestly don't see it coming. I have no idea where is this theory come from.  :confused:


Edited by sakutonaru, 08 October 2013 - 11:15 AM.


#71 Atheck

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:19 AM

Implying size makes someome stronger.


Not exactly, but it does contribute to its mass and weight. Proportions is one of the defining elements of the bijuu and Susanoo that make them so dangerous and imposing. A simple kunai or impalement from a regular sized blade would be likened to a pinprick for even the regular boss sized summoning. Hell, the Jubi flicked away a fully powered Bijudama from Gyuki. Gamakichi and Gamabunta are both comparatively small to Katsuyu. Their efforts would amount to the same as Kurama and Gyuki's against the Jubi.
 

The only feats i see in katsuyu is how she makes a perfect summon in terms of medical healing skills. She's a great support for a medic and she acts like a medium and/or amplifier for their medical powers, act as a shield and absorbing great impact and some basic offensive combat (spit acid) but nothing else more.


Until further demonstrations of its power are given, yes. But the main aspect of Katsuyu isn't its offensive capability (although it's definitely capable of handling itself in combat) but its resilience and insusceptibility to damage. All of the techniques in the world are meaningless if you can't effectively incapacitate your opponent using them.
 

Now go ahead tell me how endurance and size implies someome is more powerfull.


Read my above responces. Mass and size aren't the sole determinants in how capable or powerful a character is, but they do contribute to various physical stats like strength (mass times acceleration equaling force), durability, damage resistance, speed in distance traveled (considering their size), and the scope of attacks (just do a comparison between the Suiton from your frogs and and the ones used by the common sized shinobi who isn't a mutant like Kisame to understand the context here).

Suiton would do little to nothing against Katsuyu since it thrives off water and hydration as a gastropod. In fact, that might only make it stronger. Water elemental techniques are what comprise the majority of their ninjutsu. All they have left canonically is oil and short swords. Bladed weapons and physical attacks in general are useless against a creature like Katsuyu though since it can divide and reassemble itself, if not outright tank the attack given its resistance feats. And it's unknown what effect, if any, oil would have on a slug. Someone would have to explain that.

Katsuyu is primarily defencive and supplementary in nature, but that doesn't detract from the chances of its success in battle.
 

Good point, but there's no reason to believe that Tsunade's Byakugou would be limited by the techniques of Mito's.  Isn't the seal essentially a) a chakra storage unit and b) a tool coded with specific jutsu.  Tsunade could have coded a technique that's similar to Hashirama's Sage Mode into her Byakugou seal, but that doesn't mean that Hashirama had a summoning contract with Katsuyu (he could, but I'm not sure).


The Curse Seal was originally mentioned to be just the human body's chakra being forcibly drawn out. Obviously that we learned that this explanation wasn't quite accurate to what the progenitor of the seal stated. In CS state though you were given the capacity to utilise jutsu and abilities that would normally be unusable (flight like in Sasuke's situation or the ability to project chakra in a laser type attack like the one Juugo used against Raikage). In that respect it's similar to the Byakugou. It could be used as supporting evidence to the theory that they both originate or were inspired by a school of senjutsu. Even if the Byakugou doesn't involve natural energy the fundamentals are similar to Katsuyu's abilities.
 

Though Hashirama's SM had forehead markings, they look very different --Tsunade's and Sakura's are diamond like, while Hashirama's was circles within circles (looked like the Haruno symbol, right?).


Well the Curse Seal looked nothing like DSM yet it was stated to have originated from Ryuchidou. The Byakugou and its relation to SSM could be the same.
 

Well the Juubi's empty shell was cultivated from Hashirama's dna, so the fact that it's made out of his DNA and that it turned into this tree, makes you wonder, so to speak.


I overlooked that detail. But if Hashirama's SM was indeed Mokuton based then why would his markings not resemble the Jubi's? Why make comparison between him and Tsunade then? You could juxtapose the markings beneath his eyes to the markings on Katsuyu and some very similar qualities would be noticed. Surely that's not a coincidence.
 

As for SM, yes, I do.  I have been out of town for some days and had no computer access and from the phone is hella hard to type, lol.
I plan on writing it a bit later [need to do some house chores atm :P ]


Thank you for the account. A few people haven't forgotten that assurance to explain the training process but time is still in abundance with this manga. Good luck with your tasks.

#72 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

@Atheck

 

I have no doubts that Katsuyu is strong but comparing it to different kinds of summons like Gamakichi it's like comparing Sakura to Madara and say that she's stronger because of her strenght.

 

That's why i disagreed on there, obviously Juubi flicked away but only half of Kurama's chakra and took over 7 bijuus combined and he had more chakra to them when they used bijuu dama and before he flicked away 7 bijuu damas with his hand.

I wish Saiken could be explaned better i mean he's a slug after all, does he has some sort of connection with Katsuyu?


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 October 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#73 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:26 AM


I overlooked that detail. But if Hashirama's SM was indeed Mokuton based then why would his markings not resemble the Jubi's? Why make comparison between him and Tsunade then? You could juxtapose the markings beneath his eyes to the markings on Katsuyu and some very similar qualities would be noticed. Surely that's not a coincidence.

Well, because as I said, both Mokuton and the Slugs seem to have that in common, the healing property, thus making it similar.

I'll leave some of the things I thought about/debated with others on NB as well... Maybe we can conclude more together, lol.

 

1. Yamato was just a replica of Hashirama's and he said he couldn't use it at Hashi's scale.
As for it being the source, I wouldn't call it that far-fetched. If you look at the tree and look at Hashirama's SM there are quite some similarities between them.
A tree that blooms which is similar to Hashi's blooming forest from which he puts to sleep people, sucks chakra, same with Hashi's being able to do so with the bijuus, also for the healing part, as we saw with Naruto, when he hit zetsu, is like trees came to live which could equal Hashi's SM healing properties.
Plus, trees via the forests and slugs are related given that slugs live in the forest.
So for me, I still hold my belief that it's a somewhat linked thing, however, different in some aspects and each with his SM.
But I guess we'll see it clarified later in the series. Not to mention, why woulnţt Kishi make a connection between the forest and Hashi by now, yet when it comes to that, it's only in the context with Tsunade/Sakura?

 

2. True, there are some things here and there that need to be explained. There are multiple things I can guess.
It's either indeed SM but it begs the question, how did he get a contract with the slugs since he didn't have Byakugo seal as it was shown that you need the seal in order to be able to summon them.
It's either Mokuton Senpou only that when you get into SM you get a special kind of "weaponry" aka the Senju Kannon statue and the self healing [because as we saw, without the SM activated he didn't heal]
OR
It's SSM and he got it through Mito who had that forehead diamond which could somewhat grant him access to the slugs via her.
But given the similarities I have seen, I tend to believe, as I said, that it has to do with the Mokuton itself. Otherwise, why haven't the slugs interacted with Hashirama till now?

 

3. Trust me, I did, but it doesn't fit. Hashi was never associated with Slugs till now, he never even spoke to Katsuyu till now. The one you can associate is rather with Mito than him as she had the Byakugo diamond seal.
As for what it is, I know what it is, but going behind that, if you leave that up, the similarities between the tree and his mokuton is rather quite strong.

Think about it, he could very well have one because:
Three magic places associated with the 3 animals that was said to known/attain/whatever Senjutsu as in, Natural Energy.
But then, with the whole Bijuu transformation thing, in-between, we get another mention of Natural Energy. And that being TenTails... which surprinsingly transforms into a tree that has similar traits with Hashi's SM and techniques.
Thus, we have a 4th mention of Natural Energy which breaks the whole 3 magic places. Thus, we can conclude that besides those 3 magic places, there's an ultimate source of Natural Energy that is the Tree itself [somehow, dunno, this need to be further explained] which only leads logically to the idea that his SM is unique to him and has nothing to do with the Animal Trinity and their Natural Energy possesion/Sage Modes.


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#74 Codus N

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:34 AM

Well, maybe Mito couldn't summon 100% of Katsuyu (unless it was with both her seal and both halves of Kuraama? or someting), especially if 100% Katsuyu = the entire population of frogs or snakes.

 

Honestly, if Hashirama had had some sort of relationship with Katsuyu/the slugs, wouldn't they have interacted/noted each others presence to some extent?  I don't know, I think it's unlikely that Hashirama had a relationship with the slugs, that his SM is SSM and I'm probably wrong.

 

Yeah, it's a bit frustrating to the point that you want to pull your hair out. Luckily, the manga doesn't have much life left in it since this is already the end game. So we may still see an explanation to some extent soon. Or maybe not.  


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#75 六道仙人

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:45 AM

Obito is just like Nagato during the Pain saga. He's testing Naruto's will and their common point was that both them had the same master who teached the same ideology.

But what about Obito and Naruto? They have even more common points than Nagato&Naruto. How will be tnjed Obito? Because I'm sure that will be so since Kakashi's words are pretty foreshawoding. Obito's looking for something in Naruto, I guess what...


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#76 Atheck

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:45 AM

No it's about roles, you compared her to things summon like Gamakichi who despite not having the same size or resilience as Katsuyuy you quickly made an assumption saying Katsuyu was stronger only because of that and not taking on account his abilities.


I literally just went down the list of all their canonical abilities and strengths. Addressing their exact effects and what form of impact they would have on a creature such as Katsuyu. And no, Gamakichi is of similar size to Gamabunta (what with being his offspring it would stand to reason that they would be physically similar) who was incapacitated and his bones severely injured (enough to prevent him from moving) from just a regular Shinra Tensei.

Katsuyu endured far, far worse with just the Super Shinra Tensei alone. And all of its later feats with enduring the corrosive shroud and Chibaku Tensei were performed when Tsunade was already comatose due to chakra deprivation so you can't attribute Katsuyu's survability to Tsunade's energy being remotely transferred to it.
 

Nope but all the techniques on the world has a weakness even Katsuyu,


What is Katsuyu's weakness? What conceivable approach does Gamabunta or his son have that could exploit this "weakness" with all of their known feats (without the assistance of a summoner)?
 

the jutsus and the fighting capabilites determine what role a summon or a person can do that's why the alliance ws divived into, short combat ninjas, medium ranged combat, long ranged, sealing team, and medical team(Sakura's included) and that's why.


Of course they do, to an extent and it's equally dependent on the one who is using the jutsu that determines its potency. In this particular instance, none of the creatures you're attempting to defend have anything that could put down or even damage Katsuyu given its feats. And they don't have the reinforcements of their group to assist them (unless you're going disavow your previous statement and give Gamabunta or Gamakichi a strong numerical advantage).
 

I have no doubts that Katsuyu is strong but comparing it to different kinds of summons like Gamakichi it's like comparing Sakura to Madara and say that she's stronger because of her strenght.


It's interesting that you would bring up Madara since it's thanks to his enormous Susanoo which is capable of epidemic levels of destruction that makes it and Madara himself so powerful. That's how the shinobi defined the magnificent gap that existed between them and Hashirama/Madara. And it also made the Kages shrink back in fear for a moment. Because they understood that none of their attacks could do anything to this monstrosity.

Size has consistently been shown to raise the status and potency of jutsu and characters alike. The Jubi laughed off any and all attempts made by Gyuki and Kurama to damage it through mostly its sheer size and power. Madara and Hashirama, although powerful for reasons that are separate from their strongest abilities, are defined by those titanic summonings as well. Katsuyu is the same as them in that it can utilise the benefits given from its size (which I already listed out) to provide it with an enormous advantage which has remained uncontested thus far against any single frog or snake.

Edited by Atheck, 08 October 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#77 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:01 PM

I literally just went down the list of all their canonical abilities and strengths. Addressing their exact effects and what form of impact they would have on a creature such as Katsuyu. And no, Gamakichi is of similar size to Gamabunta (what with being his offspring it would stand to reason that they would be physically similar) who was incapacitated and his bones severely injured (enough to prevent him from moving) from just a regular Shinra Tensei.

Katsuyu endured far, far worse with just the Super Shinra Tensei alone. And all of its later feats with enduring the corrosive shroud and Chibaku Tensei were performed when Tsunade was already comatose due to chakra deprivation so you can't attribute Katsuyu's survability to Tsunade's energy being remotely transferred to it.
 

What is Katsuyu's weakness? What conceivable approach does Gamabunta or his son have that could exploit this "weakness" with all of their known feats (without the assistance of a summoner)?
 

Of course they do, to an extent and it's equally dependent on the one who is using the jutsu that determines its potency. In this particular instance, none of the creatures you're attempting to defend have anything that could put down or even damage Katsuyu given its feats. And they don't have the reinforcements of their group to assist them (unless you're going disavow your previous statement and give Gamabunta or Gamakichi a strong numerical advantage).
 

It's interesting that you would bring up Madara since it's thanks to his enormous Susanoo which is capable of epidemic levels of destruction that makes it and Madara himself so powerful. That's how the shinobi defined the magnificent gap that existed between them and Hashirama/Madara. And it also made the Kages shrink back in fear for a moment. Because they understood that none of their attacks could do anything to this monstrosity.

Size has consistently been shown to raise the status and potency of jutsu and characters alike. The Jubi laughed off any and all attempts made by Gyuki and Kurama to damage it through mostly its sheer size and power. Madara and Hashirama, although powerful for reasons that are separate from their strongest abilities, are defined by those titanic summonings as well. Katsuyu is the same as them in that it can utilise the benefits given from its size (which I already listed out) to provide it with an enormous advantage which has remained uncontested thus far against any single frog or snake.

I kind off edited my post some time ago...

 

 

Obito is just like Nagato during the Pain saga. He's testing Naruto's will and their common point was that both them had the same master who teached the same ideology.

But what about Obito and Naruto? They have even more common points than Nagato&Naruto. How will be tnjed Obito? Because I'm sure that will be so since Kakashi's words are pretty foreshawoding. Obito's looking for something in Naruto, I guess what...

 

Obi/Rin perhaps his generic words on this chapter didnt helped him to redeem Obito, Naruto's not giving up but it's missing something impactfull.
 


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 October 2013 - 12:03 PM.

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#78 rocci

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

Obito is just like Nagato during the Pain saga. He's testing Naruto's will and their common point was that both them had the same master who teached the same ideology.
But what about Obito and Naruto? They have even more common points than Nagato&Naruto. How will be tnjed Obito? Because I'm sure that will be so since Kakashi's words are pretty foreshawoding. Obito's looking for something in Naruto, I guess what...

Rin
It's rin = Hinata :P jk rin = sakura and that's why I said that sakura will play a very important in this war arc since chapter 599.

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Kakashi father become compare to sannin for it's legendary status.
It would be sakura since I believe sakura will gain ssm.



The biggest animal so far is turtle island.
And I think hashirama sm is a tree since juubi is a natural energy user.

#79 Chatte

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

And I think hashirama sm is a tree since juubi is a natural energy user.

That's my guess as well...


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#80 HauntedCake

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

Great chapter!

 

I wonder what the "Love will turn to hate" is refering to..

 

The obvious sasuke betrayal but i think there is going to be some shock betrayals, maybe one of the k11???


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