I am going to argue this with you Atheck because you're the kind of guy that thinks he is always right and yet when proven wrong backs down from it.
Do you want my honest opinion on this? If I thought I was right I wouldn't be arguing with you in the first place. The other person's opinion would be handwaved because they're so certain in their convictions that they truly believe that they can't be disproven. That or they refuse to acknowledge when they're wrong. More often than not I use the opinions that others give as a learning experience to help formulate a judgement. Some of the topics that debated the psychology or reason in general for a character are especially noted. But at the same time, I need to compare that to how Kishi has handled the character, what they represent, and how he handles the manga in general so it isn't just a baseless hope with nothing behind it.
This might just be a conflict of interests but I believe that acknowledgement and consideration are signs of someone who does value others' thoughts, even if they're in contradiction to their own.
But then when someone's argument has been refuted they may personally acknowledge that their impressions were inaccurate but refuse to admit it openly because of one reason or another like pride. I won't deny that I'm a victim of doing that at times. Often when a person stops posting in a debate they've either dropped out because of the repetitiveness or because they have no other evidence to turn to and they secretively bow out.
You provide a source that has no story connected to a forbidden fruit or gaining knowledge from a tree's fruit. All you have a name from a Japanese folklore and a connection with the moon. What connections does the tree have and it's forbidden fruit?
I'm not that informed when it comes to Eastern mythology so I can't give a thorough explanation for the discrepancy here. From what I can gather however, Kishi picks and chooses from various Eastern mythologies and combines them together to create story. The principals of the three major doujutsu being an inspiration of three major Eastern religions are an example of that. They become interrelated with each other and that could have very well been the source for that portion of Madara's explanation of the tree. It's still confined to Eastern belief systems for the most part though.
That's the other half of the story. Sometimes the references in this manga has no connections to the Japanese folklore and at best just used the names from said folklore.
True, but it's the reference itself that matters. It's a sign of acknowledging a belief system that exists outside of the manga.
This is where the western side of religious culture comes in and it is a blend of it. It just might be Kishi is blending two cultures into one. What's wrong with that?
Nothing, but the basis you're using to argue that Western religion or thinking is an intentional product of Kishi's devises isn't that convincing. Your main argument is that because of real world beliefs' interconnection with each other the Naruto story is a product of that. My responce is that Kishi likely did not have that in mind because he almost always is picking and choosing information from Eastern philosophies. Why? Because there's nothing indicative or telling of these other cultures having been implemented. A correlation doesn't make that conclusion absolute but it definitely attests to the possibility of it being true.
Heck, from what can be gathered of the posts people have made here, Kishi doesn't even really value the opinions of his Western fanbase. At least not to the extent that it would influence his work just so he can accommodate them or make them feel that their thoughts are most important. How does that speak for his consideration of them in his manga?
You want to say it has nothing to do with Christianity, yet I have seen several Christian/Judaism symbolism within the very manga. This story is very similar to how Adam and Eve bit the apple from the tree of knowledge and gained awareness. This is a similar concept with this woman gaining the powers of chakra by biting a fruit from what is known as "The God tree."
All of it which is probably based on circumstantiality. Like I said earlier, I'm not that informed of Eastern mythology so I can't make any worthwhile comparisons to fully justify my stance here. The truth of the matter, however, is that neither of us understand Kishi's mindset here and the reason for these connections existing are beyond his control.
It is interesting that Kishi is willing to break down the cultural barriers and provide a story that anyone reading can relate to. Perhaps this is completely done on purpose show casing in a real world manner how just because we have different cultures with different ideas does not mean we are all that different from each other.
You and I definitely seem to have conflicting viewpoints of the manga. In my opinion, there aren't any traces of this cultural blockade being destroyed. Not in the context that you're referring to it at least. The extent of it is everyone from these various countries with vaguely defined customs or ideals being united together with a common purpose and that acting as the catalyst for long lasting peace. Most of the disagreements which put these people at odds with each other had to do with emotional vendettas spurred by the loss of loved ones or the nation's desire to reinforce their military might.
his is an interesting idea for Kishi to do because it allows many Naruto readers to have a sense of connection. Ideas that were lost through time and translation. Again, this is not the first manga to do this and like I said Evangelion is one manga that purely pulls from Christian culture. I am not saying that Naruto pulls directly from Christian culture, but that Kishi is pulling many references from many religions and cultures to prove a show of unity. Isn't that what this manga is about? That you can have different ideas, yet not be rejected or outcasted because of them?
It could be described as a mixing of different beliefs and cultures in a vaguely generalised sense. But the specifics of how and why that came to be are very simplistic actually. Kishi doesn't really explore the qualities that created the friction existing in the manga beyond sentiments of hatred which has become a staple for all the conflict that exists in the manga.
Besides you're the one kittening how "Oh, so Kishi is changing the story again"
Could you please refrain from cursing? I'm not expressing any offensive outbursts in my posts and I would hope that you would express the same courtesy to me.
not really taking into awareness that there really wasn't an origin story to begin with. How can we change what never really existed in the first place?
How does that relate to the information already given? Is it consistent with already established plot concepts? My expression may have been somewhat brash, but it's not without reason.
From previous conversations that I've had with you, you seem very complacent when it comes to how Kishi writes his story. Even if contradictions or a lack of explanation riddle a few ideas that he has executed, rather than question the purpose for this, you're just accepting it at face value without a thought given for how it's like the way it is. That's where you and I disagree with each other. Call it selfish if you want but I prefer to have Kishi's story to have at least a smidge of coherence all throughout. Otherwise it just creates a window through which all levels of narrative consistency can be discarded at the whim of the author. You can say that it's just a slippery slope fallacy but that's my opinion.
Edit: If you see any errors in this post then I apologize.
Edited by Atheck, 11 September 2013 - 02:06 PM.
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