169 replies to this topic

[KnS]

I've said this before, that it looks like the great great Uchiha clan can't live in regret. They are utterly unable to comprehend such a feeling.

Very true. Obito's story has solidified one thought for me: for all their natural gifts, the Uchiha are pathetic. The lot of them appear to be bitter, self-centered, unrealistic, and emotionally weak. Itachi and Shisui might be arguable exceptions, but as a bloodline their clan is exceedingly flawed.

No one will die? Rin's already dead. Any "Rin" in his world will be an illusion. She still lost her life and mortality as a concept will not cease to exist because people are living in a dream. They themselves will eventually die even if they never percive those around them dying. At that's simply assuming what Obito says actually pans out they way he thinks. Communism's history is one of big promises of how equal we will all be only for reality to consistently inflict ungodly body counts on nations that employ it and all for a promise that never pans out.

I tend to view people who profess to know what my best interests are with enourmous suspicion. Especially, from the standpoint Obito does. What Obito seeks to do is absolute tryanny wrapped in a nice words. Living would lose all meaning, and everyone existance would be dependent on those controlling the genjutsu. Would each person live in their own person fantasy where nothing is real? Would it be one single reality and if so how does everyone get what they want? Moreover, this skirts the massive amount of pain and suffering he has inflicted on his way there. Necessary sacrifices, I guess?

As for the bolded, it's interesting you'd choose that language because it's exactly what I was thinking when I read the chapter and then some of the comments here. The idea that there's anything sympathetic or benign about the desire to strip individuals of their freedom and replace it with control by some entity -- whether it be The Government or a benevolent overlord -- is repellant to me.

I agree completely that Obito's motivation is basically tyranny. It appears that to his thinking, his means -- to force a false existence on others -- justifies his end, which is to be with Rin. He doesn't care about the needs or feelings that anyone else might have or choose -- including Rin, apparently. I mean, is Obito really so desperate that he would take Rin any way he could get her, even if he has to construct a fantasy world where he can control her feelings as well as her existence? If that's the case, just... ick. Ick.

Perhaps he simply wants to construct a world in which she still lives. That would be a lot less creepy but no less misguided, and the methods he has used to pursue that goal would surely sicken Rin if she knew.

That person need to be really close to you in order for your MS to be awaken and Kakashi in no moment was shown to be that close to Rin it's all speculation, after all he did plan to let her die to order to complete the mission, Obito on the other hand seems like someone who Rin's life mean the worl to him.

I agree that it must have been Obito's feelings that awakened the Mangekyo. To my mind, it would make no sense if Kakashi could influence the bloodline limit in that way. He can use the Sharingan, and control it to the extent his own chakra allows, but influencing its core functionality seems like a stretch. Just my opinion.

I think the fact that Kakashi was crying when he killed Rin was meant to show his personal feelings, whatever they may be, and meant to prove that he was deeply affected by what was happening. Limiting his reaction to tears, while Obito's reaction upgraded the Sharingan, would make more sense.

PTSD can have many effects, complete amnesia or partial is one of them. And you want evidence?? what about the fact Kakashi fainted soon after?? is that not a PTSD symptom?? please enlighten me if I'm wrong . Kakashi's PTSD was likely Rin's death. The PTSD's effects is none other than the complete amnesia of Rin's death. And I wouldn't put it past Minato not telling him what happened to Rin.

I think it's far more realistic (and likely) to assume Kakashi collapsed from exhaustion, not PTSD. The P in PTSD stands for post, right? Meaning the stress shows up later -- post-trauma, not in the middle of it. While trauma could possibly explain Kakashi's collapse, I disagree that it could be considered PTSD on the spot.

Exhaustion just makes more sense. We don't know how long he had been fighting by the time Obito arrived on the scene, and then the Sharingan went MS and may have quickly drained whatever energy he had left. Exhaustion is something we know Kakashi has consistently suffered from when using the Sharingan, so that would be consistent.

And as a side note (this isn't directed at you, Codus, but in general)... I don't see how on one hand Kakashi can be considered a cold, unfeeling, rule-bound SOB who was willing to abandon Rin, and then on the other hand could be thought of as being so traumatized by his own actions and Rin's death that he would suffer complete amnesia or forget he's capable of MS. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

If anything, for me this chapter separated the men from the boys, so to speak. Kakashi comes off as a lot stronger, centered, and aware of the requirements and responsibilities of a shinobi than Obito at the same age. Kakashi took the lumps from his difficult childhood and struggled to overcome them. He may have over-corrected in his zeal not to repeat his father's mistakes, but when he saw the error of being an over-correcting hard ass he worked at fixing that flaw as well.

Obito's response to his emotional lumps was to crumble in despair, and then indulge in a fantasy born from Madara's manipulation and his own psychotic break. I'll take Kakashi's flawed humanity over self-involved, whimpering Uchiha drama any day. But that's just me.

One thing that is a serious oversight is why Obito doesn't just kill Kakashi outright. There is no reason to let Kakashi live. It's not like Sasuke as a child vs. Itachi who had just slaughtered his family. Obito is clearly more powerful than a whole team of ninjas.

Well, Kakashi's survival is mostly due to his importance to the plot , but it was my impression that because Obito arrived in time to hear what the Mist Nin said, he believed Kakashi had a legitimate reason to kill Rin and therefore doesn't blame Kakashi.

Obito's short-term revenge was focused on the Mist Nin who engineered Rin's circumstances, then he skipped over Kakashi either because of former friendship, understanding he had no choice, or just emotionally numb indifference. Then Obito focused his long-term revenge on the world in general with the intention of neutralizing its ability to inflict pain.

[tricksie]

Well, Kakashi's survival is mostly due to his importance to the plot , but it was my impression that because Obito arrived in time to hear what the Mist Nin said, he believed Kakashi had a legitimate reason to kill Rin and therefore doesn't blame Kakashi.

Obito's short-term revenge was focused on the Mist Nin who engineered Rin's circumstances, then he skipped over Kakashi either because of former friendship, understanding he had no choice, or just emotionally numb indifference. Then Obito focused his long-term revenge on the world in general with the intention of neutralizing its ability to inflict pain.

Yes, that is my thought too. That Obito flipped himself off like a switch regarding Kakashi because it was good for the plot. Because it would be impossible to think that Obito would destroy other people's lives, create shadow organizations and manipulates entire countries...and yet he lets the one who actually put his hand through his true love's chest walk around free and clear. Simply because he no longer cares about him?

It's convenient to the plot, but doesn't ring true of the apparently driven and goal-oriented character that we are expected to see in Obito.

[Nate River]

Not to be rude, but may I ask what kind of answer are you looking for?

We could come up with theories all day on why Kakashi neglected the fact that he had the MS, but the real kicker is what is the answer you would be more inclined to accept? Just saying that's all. You might get an answer, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not an legitimate answer.

Just saying that's all.

There probably isn't one. I don't think Kishimoto can reconcile the basic fact that Kakashi cannot turn the eye off because he is not Uchicha, but it can still evolve while in his face and why Kakashi it only post-time skip. I just don't think there is a plausible explanation that exists that doesn't screw up the manga's internal consistency.

I think he boxed himself in on that a long time ago, and an ongoing problem with the sharingan is that the explanations given are often vague and the ones that are set down often make little sense. It's something that appears to evolve as Kishimoto needs it too and while he does try to give some explanations they tend to be full of holes.

It's like Minato's guard, it's a quick fix for an immediate problem, but in the process of offering it, new holes are opened.

EDIT: I'd add that he's probably better just leaving it where it is now. I think if he attempts to delve deeper into this it'll actually makes things worse. The reason offeres stinks, but I don't see a lot of avenues to make it better. It's too late to set it up they way he could have, and I don't see an obvious way to bail himself out, now.

If I were him, I'd just move on and leave it at that. I don't think enough of the fandom probably cares about it enough that it would be worth emphasizing the issue again.

As for the bolded, it's interesting you'd choose that language because it's exactly what I was thinking when I read the chapter and then some of the comments here. The idea that there's anything sympathetic or benign about the desire to strip individuals of their freedom and replace it with control by some entity -- whether it be The Government or a benevolent overlord -- is repellant to me.

I agree completely that Obito's motivation is basically tyranny. It appears that to his thinking, his means -- to force a false existence on others -- justifies his end, which is to be with Rin. He doesn't care about the needs or feelings that anyone else might have or choose -- including Rin, apparently. I mean, is Obito really so desperate that he would take Rin any way he could get her, even if he has to construct a fantasy world where he can control her feelings as well as her existence? If that's the case, just... ick. Ick.

Perhaps he simply wants to construct a world in which she still lives. That would be a lot less creepy but no less misguided, and the methods he has used to pursue that goal would surely sicken Rin if she knew

Yeah, it's probably why I feel so little sympathy for him compared to others. I see no good in what he seeks to do. There is nothing noble about it. To me, he wants to cram down a "favor" on people that they never asked for it and without any concern as to whether they want it. At best, he simply assumes they want and it's good for them because it's good for him. At worst, he only cares for himself and they will forced to accept it, their desires be damned.

This is why I find Obito so reprehensible. He would rob the world and everyone it of their basic freedom, so he can be with Rin. If reality is so underisable, remove yourself from it. It'd still be pathetic, but at least then he wouldn't be inclificting a solution on innocents who have nothing to do with is. Saying everyone will be happy is nothing but sweet sounding garbage designed to offer a justification as to why everyone should endure his chosen end whether they want it or not. Like I said before, I am suspicious of people who offer grand solutions and are willing to inflict on me over any possible objection because THEY think that is what is best for me, especially when THEY are the ones on top at the end of the day.

In addition, he does not look deep into it nor even question why Madara wants it himself. Madara's argument is incredibly weak. So weak, that I wonder whether it's even worthy of the term argument. He just accepts it as true. People call it manipulation, and it is to a degree. But really, Madara didn't really have to do much. He just gave a concrete plan to a guy looking for an escape.

[Nefertieh]

I'm confused as to why Obito didn't use Nagato's power to bring back Rin, as if creating a new world was something so easy to do.

We even saw a chapter where Obito forced Kabuto to show him how Edo Tensei works.

[harry4e]

I don't understand why Kakashi unlocking the MS is troubling so many of you guys, the fact that it wasn't revealed could simply be because he never knew he had it in the first place, Remember when Itachi revealed it, he was surprised by the revelation, He is not a Uchiha so would not have access to the information that's needed, not even Negato knew anything about his Rinnigan when he got it, and we didn't see him use the powers the eyes gave him until much later, (probably after Obito revealed himself to him).

Let's also not forget that the ninja world was in relative peace after the Kyuubi attack, (for which Kakashi was trapped in the area to participate in) and all the enemies he faced since then never really required him to unlock the full potential of the Sharingan. It wasn't until he met Itachi in battle he realised how far behind his eyes were compared to a Uchiha prodigy (as much as I hate that term) So he probably went looking at the Uchiha compound now that it was empty and found the scrolls Sasuke mentioned about the secrets to unlock the MS, and realised he already met those requirements, and trained himself to use the power of Kamui.

It's as simple as that, I've started to think with Naruto maybe the simplist explanaition is probably the most accurate. Tobi was indeed Obito, Obito's reason for mass murder was a girl not some elaborate Genjutsu, and Kakashi never used the MS because he never knew about it, (Not like he didn't collapse after he unlocked it...like usual) Maybe i'm not surprised because I had originally thought it was the death of Obito that actually unlocked the MS for Kakashi, and if we think about it, this actually makes more sense than him magically unlocking the MS over the two and a half years time-skip, because unless i'm mistaken his best friend at the moment is very much alive and annoying.

Obito, really the more I think about him the more I hate his reasoning, If you compare how he manipulated Negato and Sasuke to do his bidding and get driven to revenge, to how much convincing Madara needed to do, it makes him look like the weakest villain mentally and the least forgiving.

[James S Cassidy]

Yes, that is my thought too. That Obito flipped himself off like a switch regarding Kakashi because it was good for the plot. Because it would be impossible to think that Obito would destroy other people's lives, create shadow organizations and manipulates entire countries...and yet he lets the one who actually put his hand through his true love's chest walk around free and clear. Simply because he no longer cares about him?

It's convenient to the plot, but doesn't ring true of the apparently driven and goal-oriented character that we are expected to see in Obito.

Here is what gets me, why is this so hard to accept? Forgive me, but it's really stupid that just because people don't accept a reason automatically means it is a "bad reason."

Here is a question, what would killing Kakashi really accomplish? It wouldn't bring Rin back and it wouldn't change anything either. Obito would still find himself alone and the moon eye plan would happen. Seems to me that killing Kakashi would be a waste of breathe and I think he cares more about Rin then he does about Kakashi.

Some villains work with efficiency. If doing something doesn't result in anything, then why waste the energy? And even if killing Kakashi would change something, how would Obito know that? He can't see into the future. He didn't kill Kakashi because he found no point in it. Why is this hard to accept? It's a good enough reason for me.

Because Kakashi killed Rin? Not everyone bases their life around revenge like Sasuke does.

[Nefertieh]

I just hope that Kishimoto doesn't end up glorifying these psychopathic tendencies. There are plenty of people in RL who feel they've been wronged and use that as the justification for their crimes. We call them murderers. Obito is no different. And the only way to make Obito's crimes acceptable is to steal away the voice of the object of his affection and fuel for his revenge. Because the Rin he loved would never have wanted any of this. But I have a feeling we're headed in that direction. Objectifying her to make his story more palatable.

Obito's case isn't that different to Gaara - the anime censored it, but in the manga it was pretty clear he killed random people whereever he went. But everyone was willing to forgive him anyway.

Rin seemed to be more of a plot device than a character to begin with, her role seems to be a motivation factor for Obito, both in the gaiden and the current arc.

[Greed-Sama]

You know. I have this strange feeling that the coffin that Kabuto used against Obito wasn't Madara for some reason. What if it was actually Rin?

[Arachnia]

You know. I have this strange feeling that the coffin that Kabuto used against Obito wasn't Madara for some reason. What if it was actually Rin?

I was thinking the same a time ago but i doubt it now if it was rin wouldent he take her body with him, he dident do that.

Edited by Arachnia, 17 October 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[Nefertieh]

You know. I have this strange feeling that the coffin that Kabuto used against Obito wasn't Madara for some reason. What if it was actually Rin?

No, it was Madara.

[Arachnia]

I do wonder what was so important about rins body and wye kakakshi killed her doubt kishi will leave that open i wonder if like haha orochi had made Rin just like Yamato i can only think of Immortal body then could be one of the reasons wye Orochi is back but probably not it anyway.

cause dident orochi make kids with 1st dna cells?

Edited by Arachnia, 17 October 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Greed-Sama]

No, it was Madara.

I understand that Madara came out of A coffin, not THE coffin.

[HalfStarStudios]

I understand that Madara came out of A coffin, not THE coffin.

The 6th Coffin was Madara. Obito confirmed this in his flashback when Kabuto first summoned him. It was not Rin.

[tricksie]

Here is what gets me, why is this so hard to accept? Forgive me, but it's really stupid that just because people don't accept a reason automatically means it is a "bad reason."

Here is a question, what would killing Kakashi really accomplish? It wouldn't bring Rin back and it wouldn't change anything either. Obito would still find himself alone and the moon eye plan would happen. Seems to me that killing Kakashi would be a waste of breathe and I think he cares more about Rin then he does about Kakashi.

Some villains work with efficiency. If doing something doesn't result in anything, then why waste the energy? And even if killing Kakashi would change something, how would Obito know that? He can't see into the future. He didn't kill Kakashi because he found no point in it. Why is this hard to accept? It's a good enough reason for me.

Because Kakashi killed Rin? Not everyone bases their life around revenge like Sasuke does.

Your missing the point: If Obito is going to destroy the world as they know it because of her death, then why doesn't he start with the one who caused it? If Obito was so traumatized by Rin's death that he could no longer deal with look at Kakashi with any emotion at all, if he was so catatonic, then why is he instead turning his will on the rest of the world with such vigor?

I'm saying Obito's actions don't match the character we've come to know as Tobi/Madara. His behavior is necessary for the plot, but it's ooc for him.

The more I reflect back on this chapter, the more dissatisfied I am. The reasoning is weak and motivation moreso.

And one more thing: another villain witnessing the death of their most beloved person right in front of their eyes only sets up more of a disparity for Naruto. Naruto, the perennially untested hero. Sasuke, Nagato, Obito, Kakashi, and many more, all have witnessed the death of a beloved (friend, parents, etc.), right in front of their eyes. But Naruto has not endured any of this kind of loss.

I stand with Sasuke here - how can Naruto understand what they are going through when he's never experienced it? Seeing this chapter only makes me more certain that Kishimoto needs to up his game around the main hero. (Remember him? Blond kid? Not an Uchiha?) I hate to say it, but for Naruto to really triumph over their despair, he has to have experienced it himself. He has to be an authentic hero, prevailing where they could not or chose not to.

So...I think Sakura has to die.

Be it in a genjutsu or some other way. But I think it has to be her. Tsunade's or Kakashi's death could easily be swept under the rug of "surpassing the previous generation." Only when Naruto experiences a commensurate loss does the he step beyond the fairy tale hero role and answer the big issues that Kishimoto is putting forth. How do you deal with grief without revenge?

Naruto's childhood taunting is looking pretty weak compared to Obito, Nagato, Gaara and Sasuke's debilitating traumas.

edit: It would be awesome if Rin was in one of the coffins. But it begs another question: Why hasn't he revived Rin yet? I'm guessing Obito kept her body, so he'd know where it was. Why everyone else and not her?

[TouKen4Life3g]

I got to say, I really like this chapter. I can understand the mixed reaction of Obito's motivation, but to me, knowing that this is Obito, it makes sense. If it's like someone with a different IQ (no offense), then it's hard to believe. Obito is very carefree back in Konoha. He was being looked down in his heydays and of course, he was a loser. When he managed to get his dreams coming true (passing Chuunin exam), Kakashi stole the momentum, which he felt like he's still being looked down. When things are looking good, he "dies," hence his last words about Kakashi and Rin. He was like Naruto, as in nothing will change and good things will happen. But when I look back in chapter 599, it always feel like everything he has done is not really credited for. Things were going downhill. It doesn't help that he couldn't move to see his friends. Then, the problem occurs.

When he was going after Rin and Kakashi, he was last taught that team must stick together. Minato wasn't present. Why? Kakashi ultimately kills Rin, Why? Team code was broken. Why? He felt everything he knew was a lie. The fact that he finally gets to meet his friends again, only to be presented in most disaster way ever. He was last promised to protect her. Also, this is the first time he witnessed what a true war feels, whether if it's during the war or not. He is still young and his mind couldn't handle the truth. Itachi is different because he didn't see his friends (well maybe) getting killed, rather just multiple bodies. And look how well he turned out....Anyway, the sad part is that he didn't get to speak to Rin ever again. His confession will never be heard from him. So now, he has remember what Madara said. There's one way: the ultimate genjutsu.

I find it very interesting that no doubt, this is Naruto going to a "easy" route, rather than the right route. Even Madara said that losers will be winners and such. Obito will be Hokage and all the good things will become his. Naruto is about hard work and keep hoping. Obito is now about being in a dream is the only way to obtain your dreams (ironic). It seems like we are almost done with the flashback. Things are about to get heated up in here. The anticipation is growing.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Your missing the point: If Obito is going to destroy the world as they know it because of her death, then why doesn't he start with the one who caused it? If Obito was so traumatized by Rin's death that he could no longer deal with look at Kakashi with any emotion at all, if he was so catatonic, then why is he instead turning his will on the rest of the world with such vigor?

I'm saying Obito's actions don't match the character we've come to know as Tobi/Madara. His behavior is necessary for the plot, but it's ooc for him.

The more I reflect back on this chapter, the more dissatisfied I am. The reasoning is weak and motivation moreso.

And one more thing: another villain witnessing the death of their most beloved person right in front of their eyes only sets up more of a disparity for Naruto. Naruto, the perennially untested hero. Sasuke, Nagato, Obito, Kakashi, and many more, all have witnessed the death of a beloved (friend, parents, etc.), right in front of their eyes. But Naruto has not endured any of this kind of loss.

I stand with Sasuke here - how can Naruto understand what they are going through when he's never experienced it? Seeing this chapter only makes me more certain that Kishimoto needs to up his game around the main hero. (Remember him? Blond kid? Not an Uchiha?) I hate to say it, but for Naruto to really triumph over their despair, he has to have experienced it himself. He has to be an authentic hero, prevailing where they could not or chose not to.

So...I think Sakura has to die.

Be it in a genjutsu or some other way. But I think it has to be her. Tsunade's or Kakashi's death could easily be swept under the rug of "surpassing the previous generation." Only when Naruto experiences a commensurate loss does the he step beyond the fairy tale hero role and answer the big issues that Kishimoto is putting forth. How do you deal with grief without revenge?

Naruto's childhood taunting is looking pretty weak compared to Obito, Nagato, Gaara and Sasuke's debilitating traumas.

edit: It would be awesome if Rin was in one of the coffins. But it begs another question: Why hasn't he revived Rin yet? I'm guessing Obito kept her body, so he'd know where it was. Why everyone else and not her?

It would be interesting to see how Naruto would react to Sakura's "death" in a genjutsu. Obito is one of the parallels to Naruto and he would likely surpass him by not going on a massive killing spree like he did and come out stronger. He'd gain some sort of understanding of what Obito went through and not be nearly as judgemental. I'm not sure though if Kishi would go through with it, to be honest.

I sympathize with Obito but I also don't somehow at the same time. On the one hand, nothing meant more to him than his teammates. So seeing his team fall apart before his very eyes when he saw Kakashi killing Rin, the girl Obito loved and wanted to protect. He was still a young kid then, don't forget. He couldn't face reality and he remained suspended in the fragile denial of his childhood self. Very much like Sasuke, he never truly grew up because the horrifying and traumitizing events that plagued him, causing him to be unable to move forward in life past that precious moment of Rin's demise (And, in Sasuke's case, the murder of his Clan at age 8). Apparently, Uchihas have this in common. On top of that, he was alone for so long and the only thing he had left was his teamates; that dream of being reunited was broken and discarded, thanks to Kakashi (who he now no longer cares about, love or hate) and Rin's death. But still, while it is selfish to play God and just assume everyone else wants what you want, in a odd, twisted way ... Obito's desire is no different than Naruto's: to have his teammates together again and bring happiness and harmony to the world (through very morally wrong means of course).

On the other hand, none of this excuses all the terrible murders and genocides he was part of and remain completely unforgivable, no matter how likable a character he once was or the circumstances surrounding his fall. He deserves to die. We aren't supposed to totally forgive him and just sympathize. Understand his reasons yes but not ignore them like they never happened with excuses. He's wrong, misguided, and deciding such massive life decisions for everyone is selfish and arrogant. However, I still do see Sasuke as less sympathic than Obito.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 18 October 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[Lid]

I'm almost starting to get the feeling that the only way Naruto is going to be able to find any semblance of balance to where people might understand each other, is to deconstruct the entire culture of the ninja world. And by that I mean, try to end the society of requiring ninjas. It seems to me so many of these villains have tragic back stories from their youths. These tragedies stem from the society that has children, as we know as young as 12, fight and die as soldiers. Maybe for peace to really happen, Naruto has to find away to take the world in a different direction, because from what I've seen over the course of this manga, the very culture of the ninja world is a never ending cycle. The way the ninja world works, who's to say that another one like Obito isnt' going to come around again?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I liked the chapter, more so than the other Obito flashbacks so far, well with the exception of the first Obito flashback where you see his relationship with Rin. My question is: After hearing about Madara's plan to have Nagato revive him... why doesn't he just say 'screw it' and have Nagato also revive Rin? Was it because he was too blind by grief to realize this, because Madara promised to bring her back in the Genjutsu world? Either way... after a while you gotta figure he'd be like... "Wait a minute, I don't want genjutsu Rin I want real Rin. Boom! Nagato, in order to bring about peace you must resurrect this girl." Done!

Well done, sir. In the end, it's obvious Madara just used Obito's pain and manipulated him to serve his goals, just as Obito did with Nagato and Sasuke to use them fo rhis and Madara's goals. But at least you can feel some sympathy for Obito. I imagine he may have a turnaround moment, but we'll see how things go, considering you'd think in spite of his trauma with Rin's death and Madara's promise like you said that she wouldn't be the real Rin... or is he just that bothered Madara was able to kinda technically brainwash him in a way?

[Toasty Warrior]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but when Obito fused with Zetsu for the first time I couldn't help but think he looked like a certain mascot:



That's right... Obito sells tires for Michelin in his spare time.

[Paptala]

Your missing the point: If Obito is going to destroy the world as they know it because of her death, then why doesn't he start with the one who caused it? If Obito was so traumatized by Rin's death that he could no longer deal with look at Kakashi with any emotion at all, if he was so catatonic, then why is he instead turning his will on the rest of the world with such vigor?

I'm saying Obito's actions don't match the character we've come to know as Tobi/Madara. His behavior is necessary for the plot, but it's ooc for him.

The more I reflect back on this chapter, the more dissatisfied I am. The reasoning is weak and motivation moreso.

The only people Obito targeted were the Mist nin that were obviously what led to Kakashi killing Rin. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Obito saw what we saw -> Kakashi crying, and put that together with "Mist experiments" and the nins comments to not let the enemy get her body, and realized what we did - that Kakashi was forced to kill Rin. Hence why Obito doesn't blame him, but no longer cares if he lives or dies either.

And one more thing: another villain witnessing the death of their most beloved person right in front of their eyes only sets up more of a disparity for Naruto. Naruto, the perennially untested hero. Sasuke, Nagato, Obito, Kakashi, and many more, all have witnessed the death of a beloved (friend, parents, etc.), right in front of their eyes. But Naruto has not endured any of this kind of loss.

I stand with Sasuke here - how can Naruto understand what they are going through when he's never experienced it? Seeing this chapter only makes me more certain that Kishimoto needs to up his game around the main hero. (Remember him? Blond kid? Not an Uchiha?) I hate to say it, but for Naruto to really triumph over their despair, he has to have experienced it himself. He has to be an authentic hero, prevailing where they could not or chose not to.

So...I think Sakura has to die.

Be it in a genjutsu or some other way. But I think it has to be her. Tsunade's or Kakashi's death could easily be swept under the rug of "surpassing the previous generation." Only when Naruto experiences a commensurate loss does the he step beyond the fairy tale hero role and answer the big issues that Kishimoto is putting forth. How do you deal with grief without revenge?

Naruto's childhood taunting is looking pretty weak compared to Obito, Nagato, Gaara and Sasuke's debilitating traumas.

I vehemently disagree with all of this, especially the bolded.

Naruto has suffered loss, and he most certainly has been tested. It wasn't "childhood taunting", it was being completely surrounded by hatred growing up. You don't need to suffer physical abuse for that to be enormously traumatic. By all accounts, Naruto didn't experience any actual semblance of affection until Team 7 - that's 12 years feeling not only as though no one gives a damn about you, but actively would prefer if you didn't exist at all. Naruto readily admitted in his thoughts that if it weren't for Team 7 and Iruka, he would have ended up just like Gaara - someone unstable and murderous - he talked about how he loathed everyone when he was younger.

Naruto was betrayed by the person that he considered a brother and looked up to - Sasuke was to Naruto what Itachi was to Sasuke - at least Itachi didn't try to actually kill him like Sasuke did Naruto, stabbing a chidori through his chest while grinning manically about it and taunting him.

Then of course there was finding a dead Gaara (and regardless of whether Gaara was revived, he still knows what that loss feels like - it didn't make the experience any lesser for it).

After that was Jiraiya's death, which even though he didn't witness firsthand, truly hurt him. He wanted revenge, and he was most certainly tested by Pein's questions to him, and then when he faced down Nagato. And Naruto chose to not go after revenge. He had no clue that Pein would revive all the villagers when he made his decision, so you can't say his decision was made any easier for it.

He also saw Hinata "die" right in front of him, and just like with Gaara, finding out afterwards that she actually survived didn't make his pain at the time of the experience any lesser, or the guilt he felt over not being able to save her.

Then he was tested further when they learned that Sasuke was part of Akatsuki and that other villagers were after him now, as well as the rookies. Literally everyone was telling Naruto that Sasuke needed to die, that he could no longer be saved - and we saw clearly how conflicted Naruto was. And he came to an answer at the summit, one that he received flak for from the rookies upon returning home.

So to say that Naruto hasn't suffered any consequential loss or experienced any comparable pain as the others you listed is completely untrue, as is your claim that Naruto has never really been tested.