143 replies to this topic

[merryGOflava]

People will eventually like the idea that Obito became evil because of Rin's death cause they're learning each time more about what happened with Obito, and will see it fitted with the story.

i was always kinda fond of the idea that he went evil because of rin :3

obito is like naruto and quite frankly i think only sakura's death can make naruto go evil too

i mean if jiraiya's death couldnt do it, then sakura's would have.

but thats my opinion.

[T XD]

i was always kinda fond of the idea that he went evil because of rin :3

obito is like naruto and quite frankly i think only sakura's death can make naruto go evil too

i mean if jiraiya's death couldnt do it, then sakura's would have.

but thats my opinion.

I think that if Sakura were to die, Naruto will regret everything at what he wasn't able to do to protect her regarding the ways at what he took decisions in everything, plus the rest of his life will darken. That's all at most.

Edited by T XD, 26 September 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[merryGOflava]

I think that if Sakura were to die, Naruto will regret everything at what he wasn't able to do to protect her regarding the ways at what he took decisions in everything, plus the rest of his life will darken. That's all at most.

NOOOO

but he will become super depressed and turn emo most likely

though i cant say for sure.....i have to see how obito reacts :o (not that im using that as reference or anything *coughIAMcough*)

[tricksie]

My big hang up with Danzou is that Kishimoto's continued dumping on him after he becomes an ends justify the means guy. The idea of peace is muddled with all the stufft that is reveled after his death. Everyone sees him as the evil, as you say, so why even bother with the peace stuff? He has to have an underlying "good" reason for what he does? Why? Same question for Madara? Until now, he was just an a**hole.

I take a much more cyincal view of him than Rikudo does. To me it's a lazy story telling device. As the unquestioned evil of the village he is a convenient spoil for all the evil Konoha does without complicating it as something worth protecting for Naruto. You need Konoha to do or be something bad so characters have an identifiable reason for despise the village? Danzou did it. Uchiha, Danzou's finger prints are all over it. Kabuto? Danzou, again. Hell, Danzou was even involved with Nagato. Gimme a break...

The evil of Konoha is compartmentlized in once nice little package for everyone to hate to spare the problems it creates if the evil is coming from a diverse set of sources.

Orochimaru is the exception. His base reason is being passed over as Hokage.

I completely agree that Danzo has just become a crutch to the story. He's the one the audience is allowed to freely hate, piling on his crimes after the fact. Itachi is just as much a ends-justifies-the-means character, but he is treated like a moral compass.

It's frustrating because there are horrific aspects to this manga: swapping eyeballls; mass genocide; parent's attempting to kill children; attempt to kill a newborn; gutting said baby's parents; and having "siblings" (Sai and his brother) and lovers (Yahiko and Nagato) have to make a choice to kill their partner and ultimately witnessing one sacrifice themselves to save the other.

These are horrific situations Kishimoto subjects the main characters to. So why does he take a softer hand with the villains? Why does he build them up to be true villains, with their choices only goverened by their soul whim...then tell us about their weepy backstory and how they have this longstanding goal that people can understand.

Like I said, I could maybe see it if Obito was so pissed he wanted to wipe out the world because of Rin's death. But not a genjutsu of zombie peace. Same for Madara. I'm dreading a backstory where he got kicked in the shins as a kid and not he wants to rule everything.

I just don't see these villains as being "realistic." I see it as Kishimoto not being comfortable with the audience hating a character. So he gives us one to hate (Danzo) and the rest we are forced to understand.

But instead of making Naruto wrestle with the tough real-life issues — does the end really justify the means, how do you forgive when the opponent is not sorry, how do you move on if you don't seek revenge for the crushing hand life has dealt you — he makes the villains a little less villainous. Naruto just swoops in as the hero, skirting these realistic issues.

[sushi.]

Do you think Kisame was a part of Rin's murderer?

Maybe that's why he recognized Obito. o:

[T XD]

NOOOO

but he will become super depressed and turn emo most likely

though i cant say for sure.....i have to see how obito reacts :o (not that im using that as reference or anything *coughIAMcough*)

That what i was saying in other words which, in short, depressed but definitely not evil.

But emo ? The only thing i can think of when you said this about Naruto is him wearing a black jump suit instead of the orange

Do you think Kisame was a part of Rin's murderer?

Maybe that's why he recognized Obito. o:

Why would he want to kill her ? Only if Kakashi and Rin were standing in his way and then Rin got killed.

Edited by T XD, 26 September 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[merryGOflava]

That what i was saying in other words which, in short, depressed but definitely not evil.

But emo ? The only thing i can think of when you said this about Naruto is him wearing a black jump suit instead of the orange

lol XD for naruto, that would be a drastic decision.

[Chucky-kun]

I know this is a bit off topic, but do obito and madara have different moon eye plans? Because if obito is going to betray madara, can't Naruto sense it with his jinchuricki form?

[James S Cassidy]

I know this is a bit off topic, but do obito and madara have different moon eye plans? Because if obito is going to betray madara, can't Naruto sense it with his jinchuricki form?

I think Naruto can only read evil intent, not mind read people. It's like sensing the aura around a person even when you cant read their minds, you know they are evil or up to no good.

I completely agree that Danzo has just become a crutch to the story. He's the one the audience is allowed to freely hate, piling on his crimes after the fact. Itachi is just as much a ends-justifies-the-means character, but he is treated like a moral compass.

It's frustrating because there are horrific aspects to this manga: swapping eyeballls; mass genocide; parent's attempting to kill children; attempt to kill a newborn; gutting said baby's parents; and having "siblings" (Sai and his brother) and lovers (Yahiko and Nagato) have to make a choice to kill their partner and ultimately witnessing one sacrifice themselves to save the other.

These are horrific situations Kishimoto subjects the main characters to. So why does he take a softer hand with the villains? Why does he build them up to be true villains, with their choices only goverened by their soul whim...then tell us about their weepy backstory and how they have this longstanding goal that people can understand.

Like I said, I could maybe see it if Obito was so pissed he wanted to wipe out the world because of Rin's death. But not a genjutsu of zombie peace. Same for Madara. I'm dreading a backstory where he got kicked in the shins as a kid and not he wants to rule everything.

I just don't see these villains as being "realistic." I see it as Kishimoto not being comfortable with the audience hating a character. So he gives us one to hate (Danzo) and the rest we are forced to understand.

But instead of making Naruto wrestle with the tough real-life issues — does the end really justify the means, how do you forgive when the opponent is not sorry, how do you move on if you don't seek revenge for the crushing hand life has dealt you — he makes the villains a little less villainous. Naruto just swoops in as the hero, skirting these realistic issues.

Me and Nate have been in a real long discussion about this. I am sure you members have seen and we have come to a conclusion that why most of the major villains in this story have such a complicated and weepy past is because if they didn't and Naruto forgave them, then it would undermine Naruto's character and his ideas that hatred can be ended. How can you forgive pure evil without seeming stupid or gullible? I argued that that is what make Heroes who they are and how the fact that chances are they know this.

That's the biggest problem I have seen with this manga myself. The whole "end the circle of hatred" has become such a problem in not letting villains push beyond boundaries of what they are able to do. If that subject line wasn't in the equation, then most of these villains might possibly be far worse. I don't think it is because Kishi is scared or incapable but if he did he would break his own logic.

Personally, because of this fact, is the reason why I hate this "end the circle of hatred." It's such a strange logic that kind of defeats the purpose of everything. If people didn't hate each other than what is the point of training ninja? It is a circular logic that without it the universe wouldn't exist. In reality, you can't do it because for one reason or another people will hate each other over something. People blame religion or cultural backgrounds, but in all honestly if it wasn't that then it would be something else. It could even be over something stupid like the Dr Seuss book of where you put the butter on the toast.

It's not to say humans are not incapable of loving each other, but just saying everyone will always disagree on one thing or another and if that disagreement is strong enough then a war could break out.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 26 September 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Chucky-kun]

I think Naruto can only read evil intent, not mind read people. It's like sensing the aura around a person even when you cant read their minds, you know they are evil or up to no good.

And this begs the question, what is evil intent? Because in obito's mind he's doing something for the greater good, meaning his intentions are good and thus meaning he doesn't have evil intentions.

[Nate River]

But instead of making Naruto wrestle with the tough real-life issues — does the end really justify the means, how do you forgive when the opponent is not sorry, how do you move on if you don't seek revenge for the crushing hand life has dealt you — he makes the villains a little less villainous. Naruto just swoops in as the hero, skirting these realistic issues.

As to Obito, I admit, I'm not moved so far. I think I understand the humor (Obito's kind of a spaz like Naurto), but given the tragedy that everyone and their grandma can see coming, the tragedy he is building towards, it seems misplaced. One poo joke, I guess I can live with it, but over and over...

I do disagree slightly on Obito in that I think the reason Kishimoto will have him choose his solution is that after watching Rin die he will essetially be unable to deal with reality as it is, so he creates a new one. The potential downside as I see it is that if this is the case then it becomes real hard to be sympathetic to him. He'd come across as pathetic. I sorta like the idea that Kakashi patterns his belief system and the lessons he lives by on a guy on a who abandons them and wants to essentially wipe out reality because he cannot deal with it.

I definately could live with that. But for those who really like Obito the hero, I can understand not wanting to watch him turn into something so small.

Moreover, I don't think Kishimoto will go that far. I think he'll try to avoid it comes across that way. He'll ding the idea of Obito the hero, but I don't think Obito will go out the small, pathetic indivudal I'm portraying. But then, that's the thing, will Kishimoto really go all out and let that perception hang out there when he is trying to show how tragic it all is. I think he's trying to set up a sitaution where I feel for his villain and I'm not seeing that it will work. I hope I'm wrong, but if Rin is the big turning point to removing everyone from reality because of his inability to cope...well, I probably won't understand. He'd be making everyone else "suffer" because he did.

As to the quoted section, I am in complete agreement. My biggest gripe with Kishimoto's writing style is the extra effort he appears to put in to avoid complicating his moral message and the roles of some of his characters, Naruto in particular. Sasuke dances the tight rope in his actions to avoid confronting such issues.

It drives me nuts because Kishimoto (intentionally or unintetionally) creates these complicated moral delimas or have Naruto run against basic human nature only whiz past them to keep everything clean for his hero and belief system.

[harry4e]

I noticed that Obito has still not unlocked the MS yet, so not capable of doing the time space Ninjutsu...And don't you need to kill the closest person to you to unlock those eyes? So what if next week we see Obito going to help Rin, but seeing a wierd masked man infront of her and she attacks him, and the Zetsu half panics and accidently kills her? That'd be enough to enough to break Obito seeing his comrades turn on him, and the women he loves die by his hands, it would also be enough to unlock the MS.

It has to something pretty major for Obito become so delusioned with the world, even though his love for Rin bordering creepy, worst than stalker Hinata disturbing (though we've yet to see inside Hinata's bedroom.) he seems to be a really nice guy, better in many ways than Naruto at the beginning, where Naruto until recently (rightfully) held some resentment towards the villagers, Obito genuinely seems to love them so I can only think of Rin's death at his hands or something equally damning would be required to make him lose faith in reality, and look to the dreamworld for solace.

[James S Cassidy]

And this begs the question, what is evil intent? Because in obito's mind he's doing something for the greater good, meaning his intentions are good and thus meaning he doesn't have evil intentions.

Depends on what view you're going from. What seems good to you would seem bad to others. To Obito, taking away free-will and free-thought is good because it means war and hatred will no longer exist. To him, that's good. To everyone else, that is bad.

I think it also comes to aggression. How much anger and sadness they have. Look at the Doom movie where the new genome bases who you are depending on the part of the brain that looks at aggression. You can do bad things and yet still be a good person. Saying that even if you did bad things you did it for a good of heart. Like soldiers killing people to save another kind of thing.

OR

Alternatively, the very reason why Naruto can't detect him is because what he believes is good sends up a false signal. Though I wonder if Naruto has come to distinguish these signals and learned to know which one is which. He can detect different chakra now better than a sensor ninja so, perhaps he does know that the difference is.

[KeikoxYusuke]

This chapter made me VERY happy, I didn't find it boring at all, the pieces are coming together, and it's so ...nice.

and I love the Obirin x Narusaku parallels...at this point I really don't see the point if denying the pairing...

they even had a team Minato photo taken that mirrors Team 7's photo.... it's so...PERFECT!

the only agrument I hear alot from people who claim Rin isn't like Sakura, is they claim she never hit Obito.... does that matter?

well... people say the same thing about Kushina too.. I swear it's like Kishi has to SPOONFEED the pairing to people..and they STILL don't get it.


....er...I hope this post didn't come across as bashing...

[kirabook]

I noticed that Obito has still not unlocked the MS yet, so not capable of doing the time space Ninjutsu...And don't you need to kill the closest person to you to unlock those eyes? So what if next week we see Obito going to help Rin, but seeing a wierd masked man infront of her and she attacks him, and the Zetsu half panics and accidently kills her? That'd be enough to enough to break Obito seeing his comrades turn on him, and the women he loves die by his hands, it would also be enough to unlock the MS.

It has to something pretty major for Obito become so delusioned with the world, even though his love for Rin bordering creepy, worst than stalker Hinata disturbing (though we've yet to see inside Hinata's bedroom.) he seems to be a really nice guy, better in many ways than Naruto at the beginning, where Naruto until recently (rightfully) held some resentment towards the villagers, Obito genuinely seems to love them so I can only think of Rin's death at his hands or something equally damning would be required to make him lose faith in reality, and look to the dreamworld for solace.

I stated something pretty similar, for the death of Rin that is.
What would be worse is if she denies that Obito is Obito after seeing him....

[Chucky-kun]

Depends on what view you're going from. What seems good to you would seem bad to others. To Obito, taking away free-will and free-thought is good because it means war and hatred will no longer exist. To him, that's good. To everyone else, that is bad.

I think it also comes to aggression. How much anger and sadness they have. Look at the Doom movie where the new genome bases who you are depending on the part of the brain that looks at aggression. You can do bad things and yet still be a good person. Saying that even if you did bad things you did it for a good of heart. Like soldiers killing people to save another kind of thing.

OR

Alternatively, the very reason why Naruto can't detect him is because what he believes is good sends up a false signal. Though I wonder if Naruto has come to distinguish these signals and learned to know which one is which. He can detect different chakra now better than a sensor ninja so, perhaps he does know that the difference is.

Philosophy, derp

[Arachnia]

This chapter made me VERY happy, I didn't find it boring at all, the pieces are coming together, and it's so ...nice.

and I love the Obirin x Narusaku parallels...at this point I really don't see the point if denying the pairing...

they even had a team Minato photo taken that mirrors Team 7's photo.... it's so...PERFECT!

the only agrument I hear alot from people who claim Rin isn't like Sakura, is they claim she never hit Obito.... does that matter?

well... people say the same thing about Kushina too.. I swear it's like Kishi has to SPOONFEED the pairing to people..and they STILL don't get it.


....er...I hope this post didn't come across as bashing...

When sakura is hitting naruto its mostly for comedy not too make her look bad or anything.
and the parallels who knows but they do look more like sakura in all cases:S tsunade rin and kushina but still i wonder if parallels would make the end clear anything can happen in the end even NH.

But this chapter was awsome no doubt the past characters are the coolest and obito is on my top list of best characters & stories

[TerrorKing]

I guess the reason why Madara wants to put the entire world under a genjustu comes down to the main difference between the Sage's two sons.

The eldest son (the Uchiha ancestor) believed that peace could only be obtained through power while the youngest son (the Senju ancestor) believed that peace could only be obtained through love.

This is a theme that has continued throughout the series. The Uchiha ancestor's ideals has been passed on to the Uchiha clan. This can be seen in their plan to ovrthrow the third Hokage and in Sasuke's thirst/quest for raw power. Meanwhile, Naruto and the rest of the village seem to have adopted the Senju's ideals, such as the "Will of Fire".

Therefore, Madara's plan is basically a representation of the Uchiha ancestor's ideals. Peace through subjugation. Meanwhile, Naruto and by extension the Allied Shinobi Forces goal is a representation of the Senju ancestor's ideals. Peace through understanding and unity in order to obtain a common goal.

So basically, Naruto and Madara both want the same thing. The only thing that differs is the means to achieve it. However, we as readers are meant to emphasize with Naruto because his way is the "right" one. I know that the notion of what is "right" and "wrong" isn't always a black and white issue. What seems right to some might be seen as wrong by others and vice versa.

In the end, I guess it's kinda like the notion of "respect". Earning the respect of others isn't always easy. As such, it might be easier to gain respect through fear, but that is not real respect. People don't respect you because they think you're awesome or rightious. They only respect you because they're afraid of what you might do to them if they go against you.

I think that's what Kishi is aiming for here. That the means don't always justify the end. Forcing everyone to live in an eternal illusion is not real peace. It's just what it is. An illusion of peace. As such, the only true peace is when people will finally be able to understand each other.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I guess the reason why Madara wants to put the entire world under a genjustu comes down to the main difference between the Sage's two sons.

The eldest son (the Uchiha ancestor) believed that peace could only be obtained through power while the youngest son (the Senju ancestor) believed that peace could only be obtained through love.

This is a theme that has continued throughout the series. The Uchiha ancestor's ideals has been passed on to the Uchiha clan. This can be seen in their plan to ovrthrow the third Hokage and in Sasuke's thirst/quest for raw power. Meanwhile, Naruto and the rest of the village seem to have adopted the Senju's ideals, such as the "Will of Fire".

Therefore, Madara's plan is basically a representation of the Uchiha ancestor's ideals. Peace through subjugation. Meanwhile, Naruto and by extension the Allied Shinobi Forces goal is a representation of the Senju ancestor's ideals. Peace through understanding and unity in order to obtain a common goal.

So basically, Naruto and Madara both want the same thing. The only thing that differs is the means to achieve it. However, we as readers are meant to emphasize with Naruto because his way is the "right" one. I know that the notion of what is "right" and "wrong" isn't always a black and white issue. What seems right to some might be seen as wrong by others and vice versa.

In the end, I guess it's kinda like the notion of "respect". Earning the respect of others isn't always easy. As such, it might be easier to gain respect through fear, but that is not real respect. People don't respect you because they think you're awesome or rightious. They only respect you because they're afraid of what you might do to them if they go against you.

I think that's what Kishi is aiming for here. That the means don't always justify the end. Forcing everyone to live in an eternal illusion is not real peace. It's just what it is. An illusion of peace. As such, the only true peace is when people will finally be able to understand each other.

This.

I do believe that we will see this again with Naruto vs. Sasuke. Whatever Sasuke finds the truth, it will most likely decide his fate and it would perhaps have him to hold an ideal that we believe it's wrong. It's a battle between easy and right, and that's how I would see with Naruto vs. Sasuke. For now, lets enjoy on what's happening now.

[harry4e]

I stated something pretty similar, for the death of Rin that is.
What would be worse is if she denies that Obito is Obito after seeing him....

Well if he's got the Zetsu mask on she wouldn't know it's him, and with the power of Genjutsu she might just end up believing he's a frigment of her imagination. However there is one flaw in my theory and that is neither Minato or Kakashi recognise the man in the mask so the don't see him during his rescue mission, so unless Rin has been kidnapped again and/or separated from Kakashi it's unlikely what I say will happen.