87 replies to this topic

[PachucoDesigns]

I really don't see why people think he is evil. As though he has absolutely no reason to do what he is doing. Like he just started maniacally rubbing his hands together one day and decided it was time to murder everyone for teh lulz.

[candycane-chan]

I really don't see why people think he is evil. As though he has absolutely no reason to do what he is doing. Like he just started maniacally rubbing his hands together one day and decided it was time to murder everyone for teh lulz.

i dont think like that i know that he has a strong reason for his hate to the point that naruto said that he understood what sasuke did after he found out the truth about itachi , but having a reason isnt enough to undo the damage and at the moment in the manga only few the truth and besides can anyone blame him for what he's doing what could we axpect from him to do after being brain f*#@ed into killing his OWN brother

[PachucoDesigns]

i dont think like that i know that he has a strong reason for his hate to the point that naruto said that he understood what sasuke did after he found out the truth about itachi , but having a reason isnt enough to undo the damage and at the moment in the manga only few the truth and besides can anyone blame him for what he's doing what could we axpect from him to do after being brain f*#@ed into killing his OWN brother

Refer to my previous post. Well, my post before my previous post, that is.

Also, you just said he would deserve it. Two addendums here. First, how many people has he actually killed at this point who did not directly contribute to wronging him and his clan? As far as I can see, the only ones we ever actually saw him kill were Orochimaru, Itachi, and Danzo. All of whom he believed had designs on his life. Second, was it not Naruto who said that vengeance is a vicious cycle?

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 25 August 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

The Hokage's decision represents the will of the Leaf, everyone who wears the symbol and fights for its ideals. And when the Hokage ordered the death of the Uchiha clan, when he ordered that a lie be perpetuated to tuck the dirty little secret under the rug, his actions represented the will of the entire village. Especially because its primary purpose is as a military presence. That is what a leader is; not a ruler, but an icon of ideals and a representative of the collective will.

I just want to correct you one little detail. It was the village Elders that ordered the massacre, not the Hokage. The third wanted to try a political move rather than take action immediately. The Elders however wanted something else. I know this sounds weird, but it is like the President trying to stop the Government from doing something against the will of the people.

Unfortunately, the third couldn't stop it for one reason or another.

Refer to my previous post. Well, my post before my previous post, that is.

Also, you just said he would deserve it. Two addendums here. First, how many people has he actually killed at this point who did not directly contribute to wronging him and his clan? As far as I can see, the only ones we ever actually saw him kill were Orochimaru, Itachi, and Danzo. All of whom he believed had designs on his life. Second, was it not Naruto who said that vengeance is a vicious cycle?

But we also have attempted murder of the Kage and attempted murder of Sakura Haruno. We also have him threaten a terrorist attack on the village. If that doesn't make him evil, then I guess Tobi isn't either.

Sasuke has evil intent and his intentions are that of destruction and death. So, if that is not evil, I don't know what is.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 25 August 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

I just want to correct you one little detail. It was the village Elders that ordered the massacre, not the Hokage. The third wanted to try a political move rather than take action immediately. The Elders however wanted something else. I know this sounds weird, but it is like the President trying to stop the Government from doing something against the will of the people.

Unfortunately, the third couldn't stop it for one reason or another.

The village elders are the advisors to the Hokage. Not only is the final word the Hokage's alone, he actually has the right to outright reject their advice altogether. While he does not take their suggestions lightly, and while doing so may invoke repercussions from the feudal lord of the Land of Fire, that action is within his power. Yet, it was political, and that is the point. And it is the political leaders who assume the burden of representing the will of the people. Those who fly the banner, especially after such a thing was done, are to be held accountable as parts of the institution that made it happen. It doesn't matter who did it directly. It was at the direction of the official authorities who represent the village as a military state, and Sasuke is well justified for hating them for it.

Further, given how the Uchiha clan was so cold-bloodedly annihilated on the grounds of their potential revolt, what is to stop the village from deciding to assassinate Sasuke for the same reason even if he does choose to return to the village? Sure, Naruto will take the seat of Hokage, and he holds the ideals of love and compassion and believes that vengeance is destructive, but the Third thought the same way. And when the village elders advice could influence even his actions, what is to stop Sasuke from being the next target when they, along with Danzo, were in agreement that Sasuke must die for the sake of political good will?

Not only dose he have no reason to return to the Leaf, not only is he well within his rights to hate them, but he would actually be a fool to return.

[candycane-chan]

Refer to my previous post. Well, my post before my previous post, that is.

Also, you just said he would deserve it. Two addendums here. First, how many people has he actually killed at this point who did not directly contribute to wronging him and his clan? As far as I can see, the only ones we ever actually saw him kill were Orochimaru, Itachi, and Danzo. All of whom he believed had designs on his life. Second, was it not Naruto who said that vengeance is a vicious cycle?

yeah i read your post again...what i meant with my 2 posts is that even if he has a reason I MYSELF wont feel bad for him if he died and i dont know what he would do if he lives and youre right he didnt kill anyone that contributes to the main plot but he betrayed his village he was so focused on revenge to think if what he was doing was right or wrong he had to avenge his ENTIRE clan so your helping him a second and another second he stabs you in the back...and like kakashi said people who abandon their friends are lower then trash,,,..and about naruto when he saved sakura from sasuke he told him that he understood why he(sasuke) was so upset from the village ...but thats just my opinion so

[PachucoDesigns]

yeah i read your post again...what i meant with my 2 posts is that even if he has a reason I MYSELF wont feel bad for him if he died and i dont know what he would do if he lives and youre right he didnt kill anyone that contributes to the main plot but he betrayed his village he was so focused on revenge to think if what he was doing was right or wrong he had to avenge his ENTIRE clan so your helping him a second and another second he stabs you in the back...and like kakashi said people who abandon their friends are lower then trash,,,..and about naruto when he saved sakura from sasuke he told him that he understood why he(sasuke) was so upset from the village ...but thats just my opinion so

Yeah, but the village betrayed him first. Just saying.

[candycane-chan]

Yeah, but the village betrayed him first. Just saying.

you do have a point

[PachucoDesigns]

you do have a point

Hard to betray someone who has already broken the bond of trust beforehand.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Hard to betray someone who has already broken the bond of trust beforehand.

The village did not betray him first remember that he uchiha wanted to coup'd etat to achieve political power and get more privilege than the other clans breaking the foundation of the village itself, he had to choose dont you remember, if they rebel the others nations will attack and start another war, so they have no choice but to to assassinate the uchiha clan, sasuke put his clan above his village he says that konoha indeed has a dark side but what about the dark side of his clan.

You say that sasuke is not evil but i disagree he is, he killed samurais on the iron country, he killed ninjas of the cloud village that was tracking him to rescue bee, he ressurrected orochimaru, he almost kill sakura at cold blood without hesitating and karin too, he used chidori even with danzou using her as a hostage.
Sasuke is getting more and more evil but now he's seeking a greater objective than just revenge itself.

[James S Cassidy]

The village elders are the advisors to the Hokage. Not only is the final word the Hokage's alone, he actually has the right to outright reject their advice altogether. While he does not take their suggestions lightly, and while doing so may invoke repercussions from the feudal lord of the Land of Fire, that action is within his power. Yet, it was political, and that is the point. And it is the political leaders who assume the burden of representing the will of the people. Those who fly the banner, especially after such a thing was done, are to be held accountable as parts of the institution that made it happen. It doesn't matter who did it directly. It was at the direction of the official authorities who represent the village as a military state, and Sasuke is well justified for hating them for it.

But you're putting the blame on the Hokage saying it was all his decision when really he was against the massacre in the first place. You say he has the right and the power to do such a thing so why didn't he flat out reject it? Like I said, President vs the Government. The President can reject the Government, but the Government can also reject the will of the President.

You say the village Elders are just advisers, but they seem to hold more power than that. Was Danzo just an adviser too? Because it seems he was one of the ones in on the massacre and more or less the one who planned it out. So whatever power you think the Hokage had, he apparently didn't have enough to stop them from going behind his back and they were not punished for it either. Remember, Sarutobi didn't order Itachi to go in and do the deed, Danzo did. While the Hokage does have the final say, the Konoha Council still has the ability to hold power and are more than just advisers. They even thought of getting rid of Tsunade and replacing her with another Hokage leader for the good of Konoha.

This is the contradiction that doesn't make sense. You say it is all political, but then say that the Hokage has the final say. The council and other members that are not the Hokage have made great life changing decisions behind his back. If he had all this power, why not just stop them? I am sure he had the means to. You willing to blame the Hokage for letting stuff happen, but when the blame i put on someone else you say it is all political?

And also, this "flying of banners" and such you said. It's only true to a point. The leaders of the clans can dissolve people from their village. Even if they fly said banner, does not mean they are affiliated to them and may not represent the will of the people. From what we found out, there was even a small civil war within the Uchiha camp itself with someone rejecting most of the elders of the Uchiha clan saying they don't represent the will of the people. Tobi wore the Akatsuki cloak as did many other villians, but according Konan the Akatsuki was about ending the evil of the world. Instead one man manipulated it into being something else.

Sasuke is well justified for hating the authority of Konoha, but then why does he want to kill all the innocent of Konoha as well? You know, the ones who had no involvement in the massacre? He doesn't want to kill just the people who did the massacre, he wants to destroy the entire village including the existing Hokage who had nothing to do with the massacre at all. That's like people blaming Bush for the wrongs that Clinton did. That's what makes Sasuke evil, not justified. In any case, the Uchiha were just as accountable because they were going to start the war anyway because they wanted authority. Sasuke should be hating on them as well and maybe even be glad they are dead for they caused their own destruction, but he isn't.

You say it is all because "Well, they follow the banner," but that's no excuse nor does it make it justified. An individual should be judged by their actions, not by their beliefs. Look at Americans, we follow the America flag, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with everything the President says or does. Just because we wave the American flag does not mean we support our President or the Government doing evil things.

History also does not dictate where people stand. Same with the American metaphor above. Slavery existed in the past, but does this mean all American support slavery? Anyone who believes is just stupid in their ideas. This is what makes people evil. If you can not tell the difference between those who are responsible and those who are innocent, then you are evil. That's what constitutes to being evil. Sasuke was justifiable to a point. He took out Danzo and Itachi is dead. All the ones who are responsible have already payed for their crime. If Sasuke continues his pursuit of destroying Konoha, then he is a terrorist.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 25 August 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[Don-kun]

A NF user rant about Sasuke.

Sasuke started to rub me the wrong way in Chapters 48-49, and again in Chapter 66. After Tsunade revived him, that was the end. I just couldn’t like him anymore.

During the fight at the Valley of the End, my dislike became intense, and when he was reintroduced in the time-skip, it turned from dislike to loathing. As time went by, my negative opinion of his character was further intensified when he spoke to Tobi regarding his 'hatred.' In those few moments of the series, Sasuke proved beyond a doubt that he is selfish, spoiled, hypocritical, over dramatic, childish, and completely unworthy of any form of respect.

• He contradicts the vast majority of the themes in the series and gets away with things no other character would be permitted to.

• He is a bastard to those that care about him and doesn’t realize his ‘cool and distant tortured soul act’ actually gets him attention- even if it just makes him look like a self-righteous prick. He shows respect to no one and seems unable to handle the possibility that anyone could be stronger than him, especially those from his graduating class. His indifference towards others is despicable; he makes it very obvious that he does not care about something if it is not in relation to his own well-being.

• He belittles Naruto and if anything detracts focus from him and actually worsens Naruto’s situation- i.e. the episode with Sakura and the seat. Sasuke seems to go out of his way to insult and demean others, as if to build up is own bruised ego. He thinks sees himself as being superior to others because ‘he’s an Uchiha’ and treats his friends as tools for power, and yet as an ungodly inferiority complex, despite graduating at the top of his class and having roves of girls slavering all over him. He throws a pity party for himself because his family was murdered when others in the series have gone through worse and come out smiling. He’s a sore loser who’s too proud to ask for help.

• He is bitter, spiteful, jealous, and a coward to top it all off. See chapters 12 and 48-49 if you want to argue. Sasuke is a spoiled, immature brat, who doesn’t realize how good he has it, brooding when he could be doing something constructive. His priorities are out of order; What if he died seeking revenge before 'restoring his clan'?

• He grows up full of hatred simply because Itachi- the same man who wiped out their family- told him to. He has a chance to stick it to Itachi by rebuilding his life, creating a second family from his friends, moving on, and instead he chooses to do exactly what Itachi says.

• He relies completely on the Sharingan, and copies others’ techniques rather than putting in his own effort, and then has the gall to say that he will fight Itachi in his own way, with his own power, AND THEN betrays the people who trust him to join Orochimaru- the man who wants to kill ‘every man, woman, and child in Konoha’- because Orochimaru could ‘give’ him power- that was not his own- ‘the fastest,’ rather than staying and working for it in Konoha, or finding help from someone who isn’t an evil mass murderer. He thinks everything in life should be handed to him on a silver platter, that he shouldn’t have to pay for power- indeed, he expects it because ‘he’s an Uchiha.’ Worse still, he flip-flops yet again when he decides to take Itachi's eyes at his convenience because of his own carelessness so that he can use them in such a way that Itachi, the brother he claims to respect and love, would disapprove of.

• He decided to kill Itachi while never bothering to find out the reason behind the Uchiha Massacre. He is so intent on revenge, he seems unable to comprehend that once he attains it his life will no longer have any meaning. He has thrown away everything for his revenge. Subsequently, he has become caught in a cycle of hatred, unable to do anything else but seek revenge on those he holds responsible for ‘ruining his life’ when he ruined his own life far more completely than anyone else could have.

• He is the most easily manipulated character in the series, doing what Itachi wanted him to do, doing what Orochimaru wanted him to do (though that was reciprocated), and now doing what Tobi wants him to do. Sasuke bought into everything that Tobi told him and immediately set out to kidnap an innocent man in order to gain power from someone who admitted to aiding in the massacre of his clan so he could gain the power to destroy a village full of ignorant innocents in order to satisfy his thirst for revenge.

• He almost killed Naruto and Sakura multiple times. He almost killed Sai, Yamato, and Karin once, and endangered the lives of Shikamaru, Chouji, Neji, Kiba, Gaara, Kankuro, and Temari, and is responsible for the deaths of the Sound Five. He is also responsible for the deaths of Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, and Danzo, and indirectly responsible for the deaths/crimes Orochimaru has committed since he joined Orochimaru because we saw that he helped Orochimaru conquer enemies. He attempted to kidnap an innocent person and send him to his death in exchange for power, endangered his companions multiple times needlessly and selfishly, then abandoned two of them and injured another in the pursuit of his revenge. He killed many samurai and attacked and injured other upstanding characters.


As of now, he is guilty of treason, multiple counts of assault, multiple counts of attempted murder and murder, attempted kidnapping, aiding a terrorist organization, and many other crimes. He rationalizes his actions by playing the victim. Well, I say no unaccountability, no excuses. F SASUKE UCHIHA.



Credit to Gaawa-chan From NF edited for better words choice and Zero profanities.

Edited by NS means logic, 26 August 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Why on earth would you post something like this? Whoever wrote this rant is exaggerating extremely, probably due to his/her dislike towards the character. I don't think bringing rants from Naruto Forums is the best idea.....

despite being a rant from a sasuke hater i'll say two things first he got a lot of points for hating his character while are true, he view naruto and the others as weaklings.
2-> i hope he dies in the end because of his crimes, but it's a shounen and the public that it's aimed is not interested on "karma" stuff so he can be saved and receive a pardon but i hope that he dies i cant stand this guy and neither chapters that he got spotlight it's too forced and the things he do does nto have any logic, it's like i want to take reveng on konoha because i want, itachi almost bring sasuke to his senses until kishi realized that he was doing a wrong things this is not the first time that he does a improvisation on his manga.

i have no doubt that he can put obito behind that mask and he will find some stupid excuse to put him as Obito because even the time itself does not agree with the whole theory.
obito had 14 years or less when kyuubi attacked konoha even gai was a teen.

Edited by dovahkiin, 26 August 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[merryGOflava]

i cant believe people forgive gaara but not sasuke?

gaara killed people and was forgiven.
sure sasuke took out a few fooder samurai (who really cares though) but he also helped take out some akatsuki

i mean if threatening peoples lives was a crime in this manga, then sasuke should be locked up and never come out.......to bad its not.

you gotta acually kill someone important to become unredemable and dead in this manga (if your main character like sasuke)

Edited by merryGOflava, 26 August 2012 - 12:09 AM.

[merryGOflava]

^ again samurai, unimportant.

this is a manga, even if they die it doesnt matter (even if it is harsh) we are never going to see thier family or thier lives.

second gaara killed some konoha fodder and he was forgiven


3rd he helped unintentionally, but still helped naruto.

deidara could have gone after naruto later, but sasuke took care of him quick. (though he blew himself up)

sasuke hasnt done anything crazy evil that would suggest he is going to die evil or even die redeemed, or die at all.

he is all bark and no bite.

[Don-kun]

^^
Stop calling samurai and J unimportant. They are just ninja like Konoha ninjas, the fact that they are not from Konoha does not mean that they are not important. The Shinobi alliance is something that proves that everyone fights like as equal.
Your attempt to defend Sasuke just sound desperate to me.

i cant believe people forgive gaara but not sasuke?

gaara killed people and was forgiven.
sure sasuke took out a few fooder samurai (who really cares though) but he also helped take out some akatsuki

i mean if threatening peoples lives was a crime in this manga, then sasuke should be locked up and never come out.......to bad its not.

you gotta acually kill someone important to become unredemable and dead in this manga (if your main character like sasuke)

You know before I start posting on Naruto forums and other Naruto Manga chat I was very indifferent with Sasuke and most of the time I didn't care about him. But after I start posting on forums my dislike for his character become greater and greater because of the silly excuses.

The only reason I'm on the bandwagon about Sasuke not dying is because many of my fellow NS fans want him to live for a better resolution of the NS pairing and Naruto's sacrifice to save his friend does not go to a waste.

@Konan that user has a collection of all the panels he talked about on that rant, it's not his personal opinion is his dislike for Sasuke character backup by fact.

Sasuke defense as always being Nagato and Gaara, true fact they both die.
Poor Sasuke, Kakashi told him he is not the only one with problems, the fact that after Kakashi's words he thought about his bond with Team 7 speak Vol., but in the end sound 4 gave him a tentative offer and he choose revenge over bond, from that moment until now Sasuke has don't nothing but evil in the name of revenge and I'm sure everyone here wants to see the final clash between Sasuke and Naruto, guess what that fight will be for total world domination vs peace. If we are against world domination why we always try to find an excuse for Sasuke when all he wants is to live for his revenche.

I like Deidara, Hidan, Pain-Nagato and I was ok/like Itachi (hate his fandom) and still thought they needed to die. Why because they did wrong.
I like Sasuke for what he is, Sasuke is not a cute Bishounen character, sadly too many reader only see Sasuke that way and not for what he really is, a villain.

Edited by NS means logic, 26 August 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[tricksie]

@NS means logic, please resist the temptation to outright copy posts from other forums without attribution. The forum-to-forum policies are pretty clear about that point. This goes for everyone posting arguments from NF: If it's not your own opinion, please credit who wrote it and where it came from.

Besides, even though you may have good intentions when reposting — to share or debate the points — but by putting up a post that is neither your own nor named as someone else's it robs everyone of the chance to share their own opinions. We end up with several posts refuting the points, but no one to debate with!

So if you have to post from NF, please give proper credit. But even better, try to keep things in your own words when you can, because chances are people here want to post their feedback about your opinons, and may be less likely when it's just an anonymous person from a completly different site.

[PachucoDesigns]

The village did not betray him first remember that he uchiha wanted to coup'd etat to achieve political power and get more privilege than the other clans breaking the foundation of the village itself, he had to choose dont you remember, if they rebel the others nations will attack and start another war, so they have no choice but to to assassinate the uchiha clan, sasuke put his clan above his village he says that konoha indeed has a dark side but what about the dark side of his clan.

You say that sasuke is not evil but i disagree he is, he killed samurais on the iron country, he killed ninjas of the cloud village that was tracking him to rescue bee, he ressurrected orochimaru, he almost kill sakura at cold blood without hesitating and karin too, he used chidori even with danzou using her as a hostage.
Sasuke is getting more and more evil but now he's seeking a greater objective than just revenge itself.

Yes, they did. And that's where the politics of it come in. Do you think Sasuke was the only child of the Unchiha who was too young to know anything about this? How many children do you think died by Itachi's blade that night? Do you think the powers that be actually gave him expressed permission to spare his brother? Did the leaders of the Leaf bother to disclose the truth to Sasuke so that he wouldn't live his life based on a total lie? Do you think they did this because it would be better for him to hate Itachi than to hate the village responsible for his family's death and become a future threat?

This is the why the black and white concept of good and evil needs to be removed from situations like this. If your entire family was murdered in cold blood by your government on the grounds that they were terrorists, or potential terrorists, and you were too young to know anything about it, I seriously doubt that you would remain a loyal patriot. Especially not if that same government fed you the lie that it was done by one of your own family, and that it led to you killing the one you loved most.

He killed Samurai who attacked him, ninja who attacked him. He killed nobody who didn't already intend to kill him on sight. That is what war is about. That was the point of Pain's whole diatribe, remember?

But you're putting the blame on the Hokage saying it was all his decision when really he was against the massacre in the first place. You say he has the right and the power to do such a thing so why didn't he flat out reject it? Like I said, President vs the Government. The President can reject the Government, but the Government can also reject the will of the President.

You say the village Elders are just advisers, but they seem to hold more power than that. Was Danzo just an adviser too? Because it seems he was one of the ones in on the massacre and more or less the one who planned it out. So whatever power you think the Hokage had, he apparently didn't have enough to stop them from going behind his back and they were not punished for it either. Remember, Sarutobi didn't order Itachi to go in and do the deed, Danzo did. While the Hokage does have the final say, the Konoha Council still has the ability to hold power and are more than just advisers. They even thought of getting rid of Tsunade and replacing her with another Hokage leader for the good of Konoha.

This is the contradiction that doesn't make sense. You say it is all political, but then say that the Hokage has the final say. The council and other members that are not the Hokage have made great life changing decisions behind his back. If he had all this power, why not just stop them? I am sure he had the means to. You willing to blame the Hokage for letting stuff happen, but when the blame i put on someone else you say it is all political?

And also, this "flying of banners" and such you said. It's only true to a point. The leaders of the clans can dissolve people from their village. Even if they fly said banner, does not mean they are affiliated to them and may not represent the will of the people. From what we found out, there was even a small civil war within the Uchiha camp itself with someone rejecting most of the elders of the Uchiha clan saying they don't represent the will of the people. Tobi wore the Akatsuki cloak as did many other villians, but according Konan the Akatsuki was about ending the evil of the world. Instead one man manipulated it into being something else.

Sasuke is well justified for hating the authority of Konoha, but then why does he want to kill all the innocent of Konoha as well? You know, the ones who had no involvement in the massacre? He doesn't want to kill just the people who did the massacre, he wants to destroy the entire village including the existing Hokage who had nothing to do with the massacre at all. That's like people blaming Bush for the wrongs that Clinton did. That's what makes Sasuke evil, not justified. In any case, the Uchiha were just as accountable because they were going to start the war anyway because they wanted authority. Sasuke should be hating on them as well and maybe even be glad they are dead for they caused their own destruction, but he isn't.

You say it is all because "Well, they follow the banner," but that's no excuse nor does it make it justified. An individual should be judged by their actions, not by their beliefs. Look at Americans, we follow the America flag, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with everything the President says or does. Just because we wave the American flag does not mean we support our President or the Government doing evil things.

History also does not dictate where people stand. Same with the American metaphor above. Slavery existed in the past, but does this mean all American support slavery? Anyone who believes is just stupid in their ideas. This is what makes people evil. If you can not tell the difference between those who are responsible and those who are innocent, then you are evil. That's what constitutes to being evil. Sasuke was justifiable to a point. He took out Danzo and Itachi is dead. All the ones who are responsible have already payed for their crime. If Sasuke continues his pursuit of destroying Konoha, then he is a terrorist.

No, I am not putting all of the blame on the Hokage. I am putting the primary share of the blame on the Hokage because, advised or not, it is his command that sets the troops in motion. I can promise you that if that action had been taken without the consent of the Hokage, much less if he forbade it, there would be outrage and the ones responsible would pay dearly for it. The government can reject the president by way of impeachment. This did not happen here. He was accepted as one of the greatest leaders they ever had, and is still mourned as such, even by those who know what happened with the Uchiha. This action had the approval of those who follow him. I repeat, that is the function of a true leader: not a tyrant or a ruler, but a person who shoulders the burden of the people's will and to act in their best interest. This was in the people's best interest. It was not in the Uchiha's best interest, nor was it int he best interest of Sasuke himself. The only reason he was spared was on whim from Itachi, and the Third had no problem in lying to him about the events of that night.

No, they don't appear to have more power than that. Not only have we never seen them direct anything that went under the Hokage's nose undetected, we saw Tsunade outright defy them, forcing them into a compromise. Danzo is not the advisor, he is the leader of the Anbu root. He, effectively, is one of the Hokage's lieutenants even if they don't agree on matters of policy. Danzo gave the order, but only at the consent of the Hokage. Without his consent, it does not happen. If it did, Danzo and Anbu root would not exist, I promise you that. You do not elect a leader and then go over his head. Like I sad: that is called treason, and it's usually punishable by death.

Yeah, I'm sure the ability to vote her out of her position is possible, likely at the discretion of the feudal lord, but not the elders themselves. They have never been shown to have any official authority that does not first have to pass the approval of the Hokage. And the only time I ever saw them attempt to replace her was when she was comatose after the fight with Pain. Or do you not remember that it was the feudal lord at the meeting who almost voted Kakashi into her position at the time, acting at the advisement of the elders? You never see them do anything the does not pass through an official authority above them.

How is it a contradiction to say that the Hokage has the final say? The political part in this is that they work as his advisors, and their merit of service to the village and the country is closely listened to by all powers involved, including those above the Hokage. The orders to all military assets in the village are at the discretion of the Hokage alone, but he does not close his ears totally to the elders. If he thought it was in the best interest of the village, he could have compeltely overruled their ideas. And yes, there might have been a price to pay, depending on how the Feudal Lord saw it. Yey, while he carries the position, it is within his power to do so. Just like all genin must obey the orders of their leading chuunin or jonin, the repercussions of those actions would fall on the shoulders of that chuunin. But at the moment, in the mission, his orders take priority. That's what rank is, the grant of certain power, but not unchecked.

If a person in command does not represent the will of the people, then there powers in play that will strip him of his command. Until that time, his power is to be respected. That is how a government works, and that is how a military heirarchy works. The Uchiha were eliminated at the official command of the Leaf. As a collective, the Leaf is responsible for the death of his clan, whether it was called for or not. And I know that if you were in his position, you would not be declaring that your family deserved to die.

[merryGOflava]

^^
Stop calling samurai and J unimportant. They are just ninja like Konoha ninjas, the fact that they are not from Konoha does not mean that they are not important. The Shinobi alliance is something that proves that everyone fights like as equal.
Your attempt to defend Sasuke just sound desperate to me.



You know before I start posting on Naruto forums and other Naruto Manga chat I was very indifferent with Sasuke and most of the time I didn't care about him. But after I start posting on forums my dislike for his character become greater and greater because of the silly excuses.

The only reason I'm on the bandwagon about Sasuke not dying is because many of my fellow NS fans want him to live for a better resolution of the NS pairing and Naruto's sacrifice to save his friend does not go to a waste.

@Konan that user has a collection of all the panels he talked about on that rant, it's not his personal opinion is his dislike for Sasuke character backup by fact.

Sasuke defense as always being Nagato and Gaara, true fact they both die.
Poor Sasuke, Kakashi told him he is not the only one with problems, the fact that after Kakashi's words he thought about his bond with Team 7 speak Vol., but in the end sound 4 gave him a tentative offer and he choose revenge over bond, from that moment until now Sasuke has don't nothing but evil in the name of revenge and I'm sure everyone here wants to see the final clash between Sasuke and Naruto, guess what that fight will be for total world domination vs peace. If we are against world domination why we always try to find an excuse for Sasuke when all he wants is to live for his revenche.

I like Deidara, Hidan, Pain-Nagato and I was ok/like Itachi (hate his fandom) and still thought they needed to die. Why because they did wrong.
I like Sasuke for what he is, Sasuke is not a cute Bishounen character, sadly too many reader only see Sasuke that way and not for what he really is, a villain.

1)it doesnt matter where they are from....they arent important....they are just battle fodder. an important character would be someone that has atleast a page of development about them. they dont. i almost forgot sasuke killed some of them to be honest. its harsh but thats how the manga makes them to be. like i said twice gaara killed actual konoha ninja that were in the forest of death and during the chunin exams annnnnd tried to take down konoha.

2) so XD so has kakashi and hes not even evil! its just a plot move. and gaara was good for 2 years before that death scene happened.

3) yea..cause they killed some important people. the hosts..and others...and they were introduced as villains.....sasuke isnt a villain...hes an anti-hero.

4) well thats good to know i dont see him as a bishie either :3

[Don-kun]

@NS means logic, please resist the temptation to outright copy posts from other forums without attribution. The forum-to-forum policies are pretty clear about that point. This goes for everyone posting arguments from NF: If it's not your own opinion, please credit who wrote it and where it came from.

Besides, even though you may have good intentions when reposting — to share or debate the points — but by putting up a post that is neither your own nor named as someone else's it robs everyone of the chance to share their own opinions. We end up with several posts refuting the points, but no one to debate with!

So if you have to post from NF, please give proper credit. But even better, try to keep things in your own words when you can, because chances are people here want to post their feedback about your opinons, and may be less likely when it's just an anonymous person from a completly different site.

1st I thought it was against the rules to use name another users name from another forum, from now on I will be sure to add their names.

2nd Those are exactly my opinion is just that they have a far better English, so I normally save the link on my computer.

So I will do has you say I will add the manes and give credit to the user, but keep in my these rant are exactly the way how I feel and think is just that they have a better English I only edit some words and add some additional opinios to remove profanities use.

1)it doesnt matter where they are from....they arent important....they are just battle fodder. an important character would be someone that has atleast a page of development about them. they dont. i almost forgot sasuke killed some of them to be honest. its harsh but thats how the manga makes them to be. like i said twice gaara killed actual konoha ninja that were in the forest of death and during the chunin exams annnnnd tried to take down konoha.

2) so XD so has kakashi and hes not even evil! its just a plot move. and gaara was good for 2 years before that death scene happened.

3) yea..cause they killed some important people. the hosts..and others...and they were introduced as villains.....sasuke isnt a villain...hes an anti-hero.

4) well thats good to know i dont see him as a bishie either :3

The moment Sasuke defected to Orochimaru, cooperating with people who had just recently attempted to destroy Konoha and cripple Suna and lending them his power, he committed treason. The moment he punched his fist through Naruto's chest, he committed attempted murder.

He aided a terrorist organization by attempting to (and believing he had succeeded in) abduct a citizen of a foreign nation who posed no threat to him for the sake of power and killing one of that nation's citizens, causing an international incident. He attempted to invade an international summit in order to assassinate a leader (whether he deserved it or not is irrelevant) and he then killed neutral people (samurai) and attempted to kill MULTIPLE leaders of various villages.

He has expressed a desire to kill every man, woman, and child in Konoha.

So no, his hands are NOT clean. What's more, you act as though attempted murder and intent/conspiracy to commit mass murder in what can only be described as terrorism are not crimes.

"He's NOT evil because he hasn't killed anyone! He may have shoved his fist through Naruto's chest and tried to stab Sakura and Naruto repeatedly, but he didn't succeed so he's not evil! Since when is trying to murder people who love you isn't evil, anyway? They're in the way of his goals; it's their fault that he tried to kill them."

Then Sasuke attacked and tried to abduct Bee. "Well, Bee is a good-for-nothing douche. Who cares? Oh, and Sasuke didn't succeed in aiding a terrorist organization in creating a weapon that will put the whole world under a genjutsu (except in light of recent events in the manga, it turns out he did), so it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter that he did all this just for power that he ended up never getting in return."

Then Sasuke killed J and a bunch of samurai. "He's NOT evil because he hasn't killed anyone IMPORTANT!"

Then he stabbed Karin. "It was self defense." Then he tried to get Sakura to kill Karin, as Karin listened helplessly. "self defense." Then he tried to kill Sakura. "self defense, and he didn't actually succeed so it doesn't matter!"


Credit to Gaawa-chan From NF edited for better words choice and Zero profanities.

Edited by NS means logic, 26 August 2012 - 02:36 AM.