148 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

Ha ha, I guess we think alike. I checked out their Narutopedia pages before I made my post. I like Naruto, but not nearly enough to be able recall Raido and Genma's last names, like I used in my previous post. Heck, I didn't even remember Raido's first name.

Anyways, according to Narutopedia, Genma is the same age as Kakashi (29-30), and Raido is 35. I'm not sure if that's ever been confirmed in extra-canonical material (databooks, interviews, etc.), so maybe ciardha can confirm that. She's pretty good with character ages. I had a hard time telling with Raido because of that weird scar, but I definitely thought Genma was younger, like around Iruka's age. I guess if their Narutopedia pages are true, Genma would be 14/15 and Raido would be 20 when Minato was Hokage, so they'd both be awfully young to be Hokage bodyguards. I'm not sure how old Minato was when he became Hokage, but maybe he knew Raido or the bandana guy from the academy. I seem to read a lot of fan-fiction where Hokage Naruto has members of the K-11 in his bodyguard team, so maybe the same thing happened in canon with Minato.

interesting. good to know. thanks - I had always thought he was around Iruka's age as well. I always thought those guys were interesting characters, and it was a shame they weren't developed more.

It's also a little depressing to find out that these guys were so close to Minato in some way, and yet they had apparently no hand in helping bring up Naruto. My one complaint with the manga is how all the civilians knew enough about him to hate him, yet the shinobi (who should have at least known a little more) seemed to ignore him completely. I know it was a secret, but if the villagers knew enough to brand him as an outcast, don't you think the shinobis should have at least been asking some questions? Genma, Raido and Other Dude would have been prime candidates along with Kakashi, but it seems no shinobi were introduced into his life until he was of academy age.

Besides, I have seen way weirder pairings before. In the Golden Sun shipping fandom, I read about a crack ship in which the main character was shipped with the roof of his own house. And no, that's not a typo.

um.... ouch!?

Edited by tricksie, 03 November 2011 - 03:54 AM.

[Codus N]

I can't sleep so I came back on here.

They used the Heavenly transfer Technique

It is similar to the Hiraishin in that it teleports people and things, but instead of bending time and space it sends the person using light...literally. Unlike the Hiraishin however, this is not so good with living people as it causes massive damage to the living thing being transported. You either have to have invulnerable skin or have an incredible healing ability like Tsunade's.

I think people need to understand that the difference between them all is how you move. Either by increasing your speed exponentially, to manipulating the very fabric of space-time

Take a look at it this way. Take a piece of paper. Take a pencil and draw a line starting from one side to the other. That time it takes to reach the other end is the travel time. (Even if you move at the speed of light) Space-time is taking the same piece of paper and instead of drawing a line, you fold the paper in half thus connecting to the two points instantly. That's the best way to describe it.

Thanks for clarifying that, that makes more sense. So basically Mabui's jutsu moves people at high-speed, while the FTG Jutsu is a form of summoning? I guess they're both teleportation (depending on how you define teleportation, I guess), but the concept is definitely way different.

Though who knows? The way Kishi writes, it might turn out that both jutsu were descended from an even greater teleportation jutsu that Naruto will learn before the end, LOL.

@James: thanks for the explanation, too!!!
@Boom: Actually, I won't be surprised if Mabui's jutsu was an attempt on Kumo's part to copy Hiraishin. And they partially succeeded, as they managed to really transport something, but couldn't use it to teleport people like Minato could. It's also not too practical in battle either. If Mabui tried going up against Minato's Hiraishin, she'd likely have to set up traps beforehand as the jutsu requires longer prep time. Although, I won't be surprised if she just might be the only person alive who could actually beat Minato if he was still alive (with prep time beforehand)

She seems to be pretty smart, like Shizune so she would probably be good enough to set up the traps.

interesting. good to know. thanks - I had always thought he was around Iruka's age as well. I always thought those guys were interesting characters, and it was a shame they weren't developed more.

It's also a little depressing to find out that these guys were so close to Minato in some way, and yet they had apparently no hand in helping bring up Naruto. My one complaint with the manga is how all the civilians knew enough about him to hate him, yet the shinobi (who should have at least known a little more) seemed to ignore him completely. I know it was a secret, but if the villagers knew enough to brand him as an outcast, don't you think the shinobis should have at least been asking some questions? Genma, Raido and Other Dude would have been prime candidates along with Kakashi, but it seems no shinobi were introduced into his life until he was of academy age.

um.... ouch!?

Y'know, now that I think about it, this just makes PJ even more amazing, doesn't it?? he was right on the mark that Genma had some secret connection with Naruto. In WPC, Kakashi, Genma, Hayate and Yuugao was part of a 4-man ANBU team that was tasked with watching over Naruto. Now it makes sense why Genma (in WPC) was part of the team that was tasked to watch over Naruto. It's because he was formerly one of Minato's guards.

As for the Shinobi portion of the village not doing anything about Naruto, I'm pretty sure almost everyone (or at least people who had a connection with Minato) had their guesses, but couldn't really bring themselves to ask Hiruzen about it, because they fear they wouldn't know how to feel or wouldn't know what to do after knowing the truth.

Now that I think about it, I'm really wondering who those fodder shinobis are that was there during Naruto's sealing??

http://haven-reader....e...0You&page=9

The only exception would probably be Shikaku (and maybe Choza) as they were the one who pushed their sons to make friends with Naruto in an attempt to ease some of Naruto's loneliness (filler, but highly plausible). Thus making the indirectly involved with Naruto.

[James S Cassidy]

Thanks for clarifying that, that makes more sense. So basically Mabui's jutsu moves people at high-speed, while the FTG Jutsu is a form of summoning? I guess they're both teleportation (depending on how you define teleportation, I guess), but the concept is definitely way different.

Though who knows? The way Kishi writes, it might turn out that both jutsu were descended from an even greater teleportation jutsu that Naruto will learn before the end, LOL.

Yes exactly.

Anyone ever play the game Portal? Scientifically, Hiraishin and the portal gun are the exact same thing based on the very same space-time bending principle.

The Hiraishin is probably the fastest out of anything. I don't think the Heavenly transfer, while fast as hell, can really compete with it. Not only that, but the Hiraishin is probably more accurate in terms of what you need to do. Minato was said to take out a whole battalion by himself in the blink of an eye.

I have to say Minato some really powerful and simplistic jutsu that require little effort to perform. (As long as you have the chakra control of course)

@James: thanks for the explanation, too!!!
@Boom: Actually, I won't be surprised if Mabui's jutsu was an attempt on Kumo's part to copy Hiraishin. And they partially succeeded, as they managed to really transport something, but couldn't use it to teleport people like Minato could. It's also not too practical in battle either. If Mabui tried going up against Minato's Hiraishin, she'd likely have to set up traps beforehand as the jutsu requires longer prep time. Although, I won't be surprised if she just might be the only person alive who could actually beat Minato if he was still alive (with prep time beforehand)

You're both welcome. Glad I could help.

I would have to see how Mabui's jutsu fairs against Tobi's Space-time manipulation. If it can beat that, it can give Minato's a run for it's money. If it can't, well it wouldn't be able to touch it.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 November 2011 - 06:57 AM.

[Codus N]

Yeah, Mabui vs Minato would make an interesting battle.

[Kuraudo]

Yeah, yeah... The chapter was awesome... like always! The Ultimate team of Five kages, fuc* yeah!

Madara, you are going to sleep.

[FoolishYoungling]

Yeah, yeah... The chapter was awesome... like always! The Ultimate team of Five kages, fuc* yeah!

Madara, you are going to sleep.

Actually Madara is going to Hax a bit more and laugh as he skips away.. you can't have one of the final villains to be nothing more than a breeze to kill with teamwork... its gonna take a 1v1 with one of the mains for Madara to be dead.. or this Anime isn't called "Naruto".

Edited by NaruSaku1, 03 November 2011 - 07:50 PM.

[Kuraudo]

Yes, I know. That final statement was a joke. Lol! Anyway, 1v1 with Madara? No way... Currently, he's too damn strong for everyone there on the field. And his "ultimate" techs was not yet discovered. But, maybe you're right? Who knows...

Edited by Kuraudo, 03 November 2011 - 08:03 PM.

[Amy-chan]

Yes, I know. That final statement was a joke. Lol! Anyway, 1v1 with Madara? No way... Currently, he's too damn strong for everyone there on the field. And his "ultimate" techs was not yet discovered. But, maybe you're right? Who knows...

Im sure it wont be a 1v1 they know how strong he is thats why all the kages are there at the moment, there not stupid to go rushing in one at a time.

[FoolishYoungling]

Im sure it wont be a 1v1 they know how strong he is thats why all the kages are there at the moment, there not stupid to go rushing in one at a time.

Have you forgotten that Naruto is that #1 fool that always wins things everyone says he will die from?

[Amy-chan]

Have you forgotten that Naruto is that #1 fool that always wins things everyone says he will die from?

The real Naruto isnt there its the kage's job to fight Madara at the moment.

[FoolishYoungling]

The real Naruto isnt there its the kage's job to fight Madara at the moment.

I wasn't referring to 1v1 combat now, I'm saying in perhaps 6-15 chapters from now.

[The Tax-Man]

The Hiraishin is probably the fastest out of anything. I don't think the Heavenly transfer, while fast as hell, can really compete with it. Not only that, but the Hiraishin is probably more accurate in terms of what you need to do. Minato was said to take out a whole battalion by himself in the blink of an eye.

I have to say Minato some really powerful and simplistic jutsu that require little effort to perform. (As long as you have the chakra control of course)

I would have to see how Mabui's jutsu fairs against Tobi's Space-time manipulation. If it can beat that, it can give Minato's a run for it's money. If it can't, well it wouldn't be able to touch it.

I somehow doubt the latter part. Yes, That jutsu is more or less the fastest thing possible (since you can't go faster than light), but by taking a shortcut, like you said, Minato essentially traveled to all distances in the same moment of time, no matter how far. Even with traps, she would need to predict Minato's every move to set up perfect traps. See the thing is, he's not a robot that's totally predictable and he could obviously manipulate time and space so he could obviously freeze time for himself as well. Even IF she set up traps and predicted his every move(impossible, btw), she would not be able to surprise him OR catch up with him, because she still travels at a finite speed, while Minato could essentially travel the width of the universe in the time taken to use the hirashin.

Same goes for Tobi. She simply cannot beat him. Even on paper.

The real Naruto isnt there its the kage's job to fight Madara at the moment.

Yup. Pretty much. It would be stupid if Naruto fought every battle. ESPECIALLY when this battle means that the world is completely united.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Of course, there's a limit to the Hiraishin. The destination is limited between where the user is and where the seal is. Move the seal or prevent the user from dropping a seal, and there's no way the user can use Hiraishin. Just as the Summoning technique creates a seal instantly to create a destination, no seal means the user's not going anywhere.

[James S Cassidy]

I somehow doubt the latter part. Yes, That jutsu is more or less the fastest thing possible (since you can't go faster than light), but by taking a shortcut, like you said, Minato essentially traveled to all distances in the same moment of time, no matter how far. Even with traps, she would need to predict Minato's every move to set up perfect traps. See the thing is, he's not a robot that's totally predictable and he could obviously manipulate time and space so he could obviously freeze time for himself as well. Even IF she set up traps and predicted his every move(impossible, btw), she would not be able to surprise him OR catch up with him, because she still travels at a finite speed, while Minato could essentially travel the width of the universe in the time taken to use the hirashin.

Same goes for Tobi. She simply cannot beat him. Even on paper.

Yeah. The distance matters little since, you would get there instantly regardless of the distance. Even light has to take time to reach a certain area exactly, even if that time is only a fraction of a second. If the justu can't defeat Tobi's "portal" route of manipulation. It can never beat Minato's version.

"In most practical cases, light can be thought of as moving instantaneously, but for long distances and very sensitive measurements the finite speed of light has noticeable effects"

http://en.wikipedia..../Speed_of_light
Note: There is also a section talking about scientist possibly discovering something faster than light travel.

LUDICROUS SPEED!!!! --Click here to view--

So let's look at this at a much greater scale
Let's say you want to travel 10 lightyears distance wise. Light moves at 671 million miles per hour. It will take you ten years going the speed of light to reach the distance of 10 lightyears.

If you were to use space-time manipulation, it would take you 5 minutes at most to travel the same distance (depending on how much energy it takes to compress the space). For light to go from the moon (bounced off) to the earth would take 1.255 seconds. Space-time manipulation: You would be on the moon even before the light started to move.

I think what is incorrect about it is that we use the term "travel" when it comes to the Hirashin because there is no "traveling." If you think of the term "traveling" as "An object moving across space" then this does no such a thing. The object technically doesn't move at all. Instead, what compresses is space itself. Movement only really occurs before and after. Not during.

Of course, there's a limit to the Hiraishin. The destination is limited between where the user is and where the seal is. Move the seal or prevent the user from dropping a seal, and there's no way the user can use Hiraishin. Just as the Summoning technique creates a seal instantly to create a destination, no seal means the user's not going anywhere.

That is its only weakness and it's hardly a weakness at all since he can put the "seal" on anything, anyone, anywhere. There are so many ways to get around this weakness that it hardly seems like a weakness at all.

But then again, both Tobi's and the Heavenly transfer need anchor points to work so it it is even ground on this one. Tobi's is is that he physically has make a portal using his eye which is why I think the Hirashin is faster simply for the fact that it doesn't need to use portals like that.

I think a bigger more obvious weakness is the Chakra reserve. Their energy is not finite and even Tobi can only use his move for 5 minutes at most in intervals. This is why not many can use Minato's because it requires a lot of it to do such a move. Naruto, with his massive chakra reserve, should be able to learn it no problem and use it as effectively as his father could.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 November 2011 - 11:08 PM.

[The Tax-Man]

Of course, there's a limit to the Hiraishin. The destination is limited between where the user is and where the seal is. Move the seal or prevent the user from dropping a seal, and there's no way the user can use Hiraishin. Just as the Summoning technique creates a seal instantly to create a destination, no seal means the user's not going anywhere.

Of course. But think. If the summoning jutsu can create an instant seal, could Minato not, in theory, do the same thing on the OTHER side of the portal?

Yeah. The distance matters little since, you would get there instantly regardless of the distance. Even light has to take time to reach a certain area exactly, even if that time is only a fraction of a second. If the justu can't defeat Tobi's "portal" route of manipulation. It can never beat Minato's version.


http://en.wikipedia..../Speed_of_light
Note: There is also a section talking about scientist possibly discovering something faster than light travel.

LUDICROUS SPEED!!!! --Click here to view--

So let's look at this at a much greater scale
Let's say you want to travel 10 lightyears distance wise. Light moves at 671 million miles per hour. It will take you ten years going the speed of light to reach the distance of 10 lightyears.

If you were to use space-time manipulation, it would take you 5 minutes at most to travel the same distance (depending on how much energy it takes to compress the space). For light to go from the moon (bounced off) to the earth would take 1.255 seconds. Space-time manipulation: You would be on the moon even before the light started to move.

I think what is incorrect about it is that we use the term "travel" when it comes to the Hirashin because there is no "traveling." If you think of the term "traveling" as "An object moving across space" then this does no such a thing. The object technically doesn't move at all. Instead, what compresses is space itself. Movement only really occurs before and after. Not during.

So... who you tellin' that to? Just so one of us knows. LOL jk.

Anyway, thanks for the lesson. But he DOES travel in space. It's just torn space. It's still travel. And I exaggerated about the universe travel part. Even he could realistically travel only a few AU's. Anything more is pushing the limits on energy available to a GALAXY to do that.

The faster than light thing, no... That's exactly what I hate about Wikipedia and the news. Anomalies happen... And if those neutrinos were actually faster than light they would go back in time, thus undetectable. Experimental error can happen and the fact that they have still not been sure about their equipment after the conference and the results never being produced again means that that was probably a fluke.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Well, see, Minato can't create an instant seal if he doesn't know where to go in the first place. That's why he prepares the seals beforehand so he already has a destination already in mind. Like, if he needed to go to the safehouse during Kushina's birth, he already had a seal there already. Minato can't create a seal like, say from Konoha to Suna since he doesn't have an exact location. He may end up teleporting himself into a wall or something.

[James S Cassidy]

Anyway, thanks for the lesson. But he DOES travel in space. It's just torn space. It's still travel. And I exaggerated about the universe travel part. Even he could realistically travel only a few AU's. Anything more is pushing the limits on energy available to a GALAXY to do that.

The faster than light thing, no... That's exactly what I hate about Wikipedia and the news. Anomalies happen... And if those neutrinos were actually faster than light they would go back in time, thus undetectable. Experimental error can happen and the fact that they have still not been sure about their equipment after the conference and the results never being produced again means that that was probably a fluke.

I am saying this because this seems to be the biggest debate out of anything in the Naruto universe and people keep confusing speed with teleportation. Speed uses relativity. Teleportation throws that out the window.

You have to read the words a little carefully. You keep thinking I am using the word "Travel" as in where has he been and where did he end up. Point A to point B. That you literally go from point A to point B. Which is not wrong, but I am looking at the movement "traveling" from Point A to be Point B. The action. The time it takes to go from point A and point B which is why I said "If you think of the term "traveling" as "An object moving across space" then this does no such a thing."

Again, I said this is where the confusion is.

If you get into your car and drive to the store. You're moving across space.
Minato moves through it. He bypasses distance and literally goes right to the end point.

So yeah he DOES travel to the other point, but he doesn't go to the point. He brings the point to him instead. He doesn't move, the destination itself is brought to him. All the other jutsu (body-flicker, Heavenly Transfer) moves the object to the point.
I am not looking at where you are going. I am looking at how you get there and I am not exaggerating my point because Minato probably could do that if he has enough chakra to perform such a thing. Energy is neither created nor destroyed so it just recycles and the universe has an infinite amount of energy flowing through it.

This makes me wonder even more. If the ten-tails is on the moon and Tobi is going to the moon to unlock it, perhaps Naruto will use the FGT to get to the moon. Especially, if he uses the Nine-tails chakra as his energy source. We don't know how much energy it takes to transport that far because there are so many factors to what you are transporting to how far you are taking it.

-----------------------------

OT:
Sometimes, scientist can discover things from flukes. X-rays were a scientific fluke. All discoveries start out with people believing it is fake. Since the beginning of time whenever a discovery was made, people denied it. So don't count anything out yet until proven false. We can neither prove it to be true nor prove it to be false. So take what you will. I was trying to throw in a little humor, but I guess this went over your head. If you can prove to me that nothing is faster than light. Then so be it. If not, keep an open mind I say.

Also think of this, if the scientist didn't believe it, would they have brought it up at all?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 November 2011 - 12:24 AM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Here's another explanation to help clarify James's explanation.

Think of a wall in between you and, let's say cake. There's a door on the far right of the wall, far away from the cake. The Body Flicker and Heavenly Transfer can get you all the way to the door, through it, and then to the cake.

Hiraishin just tears a hole between you and the cake and you can just grab the cake or walk through a hole and pick up the cake. You don't even make the distance from your point -> door-> other side of the wall -> cake.

[The Tax-Man]

Here's another explanation to help clarify James's explanation.

Think of a wall in between you and, let's say cake. There's a door on the far right of the wall, far away from the cake. The Body Flicker and Heavenly Transfer can get you all the way to the door, through it, and then to the cake.

Hiraishin just tears a hole between you and the cake and you can just grab the cake or walk through a hole and pick up the cake. You don't even make the distance from your point -> door-> other side of the wall -> cake.

EXACTLY. It tears a hole, but you must travel THE LENGTH OF THE HOLE. Get my point here. There is travel in space. But that space is obtained through tearing a hole in space. Therefore, you're traveling, just a much shorter distance. For example, in the paper example, the paper itself has width. This is the same concept. And back on topic, Minato wins. Period. Yeah, the not knowing the place to teleport is a problem but in a battle scenario, you are aware of yuor immediate surroundings and that is only where you need to teleport. Getting my little point here?

[merryGOflava]

so basically one is teleporting and the other is speed travel?