138 replies to this topic

[RedDelicious]

Itachi was only 13 ...

That's an excellent point that I forgot. I like to cut Naruto and Sakura slack since they are maturing teenagers, so some leeway should be given to Itachi. (The heavy dose of fan-love, due to his power and genius, does make it hard to be forgiving.) Too bad he couldn't drop the Uchiha cool ninja exterior long enough to be (obviously) remorseful.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Itachi's age is something I was about to mention when Codus mentioned it. To be honest, I think that Itachi's still suffering from guilt and remorse over what he did. Sure he's all 'calm' and 'collected,' however, Kishi doesn't mention his internal state of mind. What someone mentioned earlier, Itachi's a weapon, in a society that breeds killers from childhood. We see Kakashi calmly killing adults more than half his age during his Gaiden with no remorse. Who's to say Itachi's emotionally shut down during the Uchiha Massacre then broke down afterward. I think his whole stoicism might imply that he's even emotionally dead after what he had to do. Maybe that's why he remains stoic. Heck, who knows, his inexplicable illness may even be tied to his sorrow. Though, I have a nagging suspicion that Kishi may do a flashback arc when/if Itachi confronts Kabutomaru. If not, oh well.

On a less serious note, I like Itachi because he pulls off the aloof ninja badass thing better than Sasuke does....

[Miss Soupy]

"Even one that remained alive would more than likely seek revenge as seen by Sasuke." Seriously? That's your justification for killing children? If that was truly the case, then why did Konoha allow Sasuke to remain alive after Itachi left the clan?

Itachi was working to stop a coup, not a group of troops amassed at the border. To prevent a coup, he would only need to wipe out those involved. But he had this other shady motive involving Madara to cleanse the clan, hit the reset button. For that, every person needed to be killed.

One thing I wanted to add from reading your post, was perhaps this ties in with the Cycle of Hatred that was introduced. If Itachi killed the coup members only, letting the others who were innocent at the time live, he is risking their revenge against Konoha in the future. Since Itachi is not a character meant to deal with this cycle, I don't think it would occur to him there was any other way. Certainly he would realize leaving some alive would gain their hatred, not only towards him, but to Konoha as well. Not only that, but wasn't a huge point of the entire operation to make Itachi out to be a villain and the village to be guiltless? If he only selectively killed, I think this would not have happened.

Really, for the plan to be perfect from Konoha's viewpoint, everyone would have had to be killed. But Itachi couldn't kill Sasuke, and instead tried to create a way for him to be a hero. Yeah, it fell through, miserably, and Itachi admitted it. But I still think, given what we know at this point and the circumstances, Itachi had little choice given the criteria from Konoha and then his own love for Sasuke.

One of the major themes I see repeating in this manga is that love can cause you the most pain and misery. Yet, it can also give you the most strength. It's about finding a balance.

[TerrorKing]

Thoughts --Click here to view--

While I fully agree that Naruto definitely needed that talk from Itachi, and I loved the talk itself and its implications, I don't think that arrogant is quite the right word for Naruto's behavior (despite Itachi himself using it). After all, it wasn't too long ago that Naruto was shouting at Minato how he wasn't smart or a great ninja. Maybe single-minded and someone letting the prophecy and his new powers get to his head.

That being said, I hope that Naruto takes the talk to heart and we see an ensuing effect in his behavior.

I have to admit, I really hope the MinaKushi panel (which I absolutely loved, btw) encourages Naruto to reach out to Sakura. She's been by his side all this time, offering to shoulder his burden, and HE'S the one who's been keeping her at a distance (likely because he's trying too hard to respect her feelings for Sasuke or protect her or some other justification along those lines). I really hope we get a scene where he flashbacks to those words about his parents, and says something like, "I'm sorry Sakura. This time, I'm ready to work together."

I also fully agree that there's a double standard where it comes to Sakura and Naruto's treatment of each other - BOTH of them hide things from the other to protect them, BOTH of them make mistakes, BOTH of them have their own emotional issues to work out. BOTH have had failures and successes.

And yes, here's hoping that Sakura gets her chance to shine yet; perhaps as Tricksie once suggested, she'll be the one to fight Kabuto. Once Itachi manages to dispel the jutsu, he's gone. Ending the jutsu doesn't necessarily mean Kabuto v. Itachi.

Yeah, perhaps arrogant was too strong a word. Still, it IS a pretty annoying trait IMO, especially when you consider how much emphasis have been placed on the importance of teamwork throughout the series. Someone else mentioned the Hidan/Kakuzu fight and that's a pretty good example of what im talking about. If that had been Sakura saying that she wanted to fight Kakuzu alone, im pretty sure neither Yamato, Kakashi or anyone else for that matter would have let her. Its the same as the whole "keeping secrets and /or lying" thing and I just find it really annoying. Hell, its what pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the entire series at one point, so I have a REALLY hard time accepting these kinds of double standards, whether its in the story itself or in the fandom.

Its also strange how Itachi is basically just telling Naruto what a lot of other people have been telling him throughout the series, but I suppose that it was Itachi's story about how he tried to do everything on his own and failed, that truly made him see the light.

And I agree that hopefully this will make Naruto acknowledge Sakura. Not just as a strong shinobi and/or teammate, but also as someone who truly cares for him and, hopefully, as a love interest as well.

Sakura vs kabuto was just the EPIC!!! Like I said in the last chapter thread, they both have a connection with how Tsunade wasn't able to kill Kabuto back in part 1. But the reason why im worried is because if all the Edo Tensei Zombies disappear, then Chiyo will disappear as well and then we will never get to see Chiyo vs. Sakura, which to me would just seem like a lost oppurtunity.

As for Itachi, I agree that even if his cause was just, his actions weren't. He pretty much screwed up, at least in regards to Sasuke. I don't hate Sasuke. I hate what he has become, but at the same time, I fully understand why he's acting the way he is. I mean, growing up in the Uchiha clan already seems like it would kitten anyone up. Add to that all the kitten that Sasuke's been going through and it's no wonder he's so mentally screwed up. In fact, I wonder if Sasuke will ever regain his old self and by that I how he was before the massacre. He probably will though. I reckon that Naruto will somehow be able to get through to him just long enough for him to regain his composure and do whatever it is Kishi has planned for him.

[Super Boom]

Wow, there's some great thoughts on Itachi floating around this thread.
I guess, ever since the revelation about the Uchiha massacre, I've always took him as decent guy forced into a horrible situation. It's been said above, but Itachi isn't meant to confront the system. Because of that, his options were limited to committing paracide, or allow events to pass in which far more people would die. Like other characters in this series, he's basically making the utilitarian decision, sacrificing the few for the many, rather than considering a third option. Maybe that makes him a bad person, but I take it as a more of his character not being meant for that sort of role.

On a sort-of-related not, being able to sympathize doesn't necessarily equate to people liking the character or not. Hidan is still one of my favorite characters, and sympathy is the last thing his character elicits, at least from what was shown in the manga. But maybe I'm a poor example, LOL.

But why is Hinata behind Akamaru? It's either that, or she is face-to-face with Kiba's dog.

It's a symbol for Hinata and Akamaru's feelings for each other. Akamaru's always loved Hinata, and Hinata has only recently realized this. I believe that panel is showing us how Akamaru has finally moved into Hinata's 'line of vision', and that she's finally letting him into her heart. Will anything come of this union? Will the Hyuuga clan even allow it? Do ninja dogs not deserve love? Let's keep reading and find out.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 26 August 2011 - 12:45 AM.

[naruto-z]

I just read the chapter and I honestly don't understand why everyone is ignoring and assuming that the end is naruto holding the rasengan. To me it seems so obvious that it's not Naruto. All we can see is a hand and the rasengan, no clothes or anything to let us assume that it is Naruto. Plus, Gaara's look on his face is definitely not the type of look he would have if he would have suddenly seen naruto. He would be concerned about Naruto entering the battlefield. I feel like it's so obvious that it could be Minato. Kabuto just declared that he was going to use his trump card and Minato is actually a very likely candidate. Madara would certainly be scared since Minato stopped his invasion on Konoha and practically destroyed him to piece during their fight. Minato would also be a worthy foe for Naruto since Itachi is now dealing with the zombies. I mean, why else would Kishimoto leave us on a cliffhanger where we don't see the face of the rasengan user if it's just naruto. It'd be a let down of a cliffhanger. I understand that the Itachi speech was cool and important part of the chapter but everyone else is just ignoring the other major piece.

[Anguyen92]

I just read the chapter and I honestly don't understand why everyone is ignoring and assuming that the end is naruto holding the rasengan. To me it seems so obvious that it's not Naruto. All we can see is a hand and the rasengan, no clothes or anything to let us assume that it is Naruto. Plus, Gaara's look on his face is definitely not the type of look he would have if he would have suddenly seen naruto. He would be concerned about Naruto entering the battlefield. I feel like it's so obvious that it could be Minato. Kabuto just declared that he was going to use his trump card and Minato is actually a very likely candidate. Madara would certainly be scared since Minato stopped his invasion on Konoha and practically destroyed him to piece during their fight. Minato would also be a worthy foe for Naruto since Itachi is now dealing with the zombies. I mean, why else would Kishimoto leave us on a cliffhanger where we don't see the face of the rasengan user if it's just naruto. It'd be a let down of a cliffhanger. I understand that the Itachi speech was cool and important part of the chapter but everyone else is just ignoring the other major piece.

Wait a minute, wasn't there a scene where Kabuto-douchebag said that he could not revive Minato, due to how he died, but then again who else besides him, Naruto, and Jiriya could use rasengan?

Edited by Anguyen92, 26 August 2011 - 01:06 AM.

[naruto-z]

Wait a minute, wasn't there a scene where Kabuto-douchebag said that he could not revive Minato, due to how he died, but then again who else besides him, Naruto, and Jiriya could use rasengan?

nope, Kabuto never officially said that. And if you don't remember....Orochimaru actually intended to revive Minato during the long long ago Kage Battle arc in part 1. Though most of you don't read Japanese/Chinese, the last coffin had the chinese and japanese character for 4th and the 3rd Hokage also did say he had to do all he could to stop the last coffin. This could only point towards the 4th Hokage.

[Super Boom]

I just read the chapter and I honestly don't understand why everyone is ignoring and assuming that the end is naruto holding the rasengan. To me it seems so obvious that it's not Naruto. All we can see is a hand and the rasengan, no clothes or anything to let us assume that it is Naruto. Plus, Gaara's look on his face is definitely not the type of look he would have if he would have suddenly seen naruto.

I dunno, I guess I just assumed, what with the flames on his hand, it was Naruto using Chakra mode. That might explain why Gaara's surprised at his appearance. Plus, the "Finally Arrived!?" caption at the bottom makes it sound like the reader is supposed to be aware of the unseen character.
I guess it could be Minato though, if he could use Chakra mode somehow. But I guess if was Minato, I feel like it'd be more in Kishi's MO to show him on the last page. At least I feel like that's the sort of cliff-hanger Kishi's more apt to using.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 26 August 2011 - 01:15 AM.

[naruto-z]

I dunno, I guess I just assumed, what with the flames on his hand, it was Naruto using Chakra mode. That might explain why Gaara's surprised at his appearance. I guess it could be Minato though, if he could use Chakra mode somehow. But I guess if was Minato, I feel like it'd be more in Kishi's MO to show him on the last page. At least I feel like that's the sort of cliff-hanger Kishi's more apt to using.

Okay, I can "kind of" see the flames on this middle finger and thumb. It wasn't very well drawn and I can hardly see it.

Edited by naruto-z, 26 August 2011 - 01:16 AM.

[harry4e]

Itachi and genocide --Click here to view--

Hmmm.... When one entity sets out to exterminate another entity, be it race, religion, culture, etc. that is genocide. It may be uncomfortable to look at Itachi in such terms, but it was still a genocide.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. Itachi's motives for these killings are very muddied. You can't just fall back on him being a good soldier working for the good of Konoha, because he had this moral motive to cleanse his clan. That hidden agenda is what keeps him from being a completely heroic figure.

"Even one that remained alive would more than likely seek revenge as seen by Sasuke." Seriously? That's your justification for killing children? If that was truly the case, then why did Konoha allow Sasuke to remain alive after Itachi left the clan?

Itachi was working to stop a coup, not a group of troops amassed at the border. To prevent a coup, he would only need to wipe out those involved. But he had this other shady motive involving Madara to cleanse the clan, hit the reset button. For that, every person needed to be killed.

So if his motives were to squelch the revengeful nature of the cursed clan, and if we stick to that as the reason that he killed, then he would have known that by leaving Sasuke to live he was creating a vengeful monster. So again, I cannot go look kindly on Itachi's actions because he twisted Sasuke into what he is today, by forcing Sasuke to become the savior in this massive game he's playing with people's lives.

By following Itachi's reasoning, that the whole clan was bad, cursed and vengeful, then Sasuke is acting exactly how he should be acting today. It was only Itachi who thought that wiping out your family and your parents before your eyes would bring about a positive change in Sasuke.

Actually there was a reason why everyone was killed including children, it mainly goes down to the cycle of hatred Madara mentioned, If he only attacked the ones responsible for the coup there would be questions asked why only some were attacked and not others, this would have led to the plans for the coup being revealed, which would have meant the survivors would have been ostracised and victimised and thus the cycle of hatred would begin anew with the survivors, also Itachi didn't want the villagers to know about his clans betrayal, he wanted them to be all seen as victims rather than threats that were eliminated.

I'm not for one moment agreeing with what he did, and once again need to iterate that this was not Itachi's idea, he was the one given the order to do so, one his best died beleiving in also, Last couple of chapters revealed how Shisui not only gave Danzou his eye but died so Itachi would gain the power to stop the coup.

I don't see where you get the idea Itachi was the one who thought the entire clan was bad, he was ordered to do so, he didn't suddenly decide to assasinate his entire clan because of his own personal feelings, his personal feelings were the ones that stopped him from killing his brother, he didn't want to do it, even Sasuke revealed later than Itachi was crying when he left after what he had to do.

He was a tool of the village, and ultimately the safety of the village comes above everything else, with your resoning Minato could also be classed as a villain, Afterall he sealed the Kyuubi inside his son so he could one day use it to protect the village, He knew how his son would be treated after being make a Jinchuriki, but even though he was given another option he sealed in his son, not only in the hope his son would able to conquer the power and defeat Madara but also to keep the balance of power between the villages.

Back to the story, I don't know why but I thought it might have been Kushina that was seen on the last page, which was why Gaara was surprised to see the giant Rasengan and beast mode from someone other than Naruto, (If what Bee said is true and the Rasengan being very similar to the Beast Bomb, it's possible that Minato got the idea for the Rasenga from Kushina telling him about the Beast bomb, and she learnt the move from him, if Minato taught his sensei and student why not teach his wife) but then again the look could be because Gaara didn't know Naruto was allowed to join the battle and was surprised to see Naruto in the Nine-Tails cloak.

Edited by harry4e, 26 August 2011 - 02:50 AM.

[ciardha]

Ok, here I go with my take on Itachi *rubs hands*

While what everyone else has said is great and all, I think we've missed one thing about Itachi's character as the slayer of the Uchiha clan. His mental condition.

Itachi was only 13 at the time when he carried out the massacre, when Itachi found out about the plans for the coup, he was mentally shocked. It's a lot and too much for a 13-year old to take. Especially when he loved the village. (I believe it was Minato who had a hand in this) Moving on, as he was so young, it would've been easy to confuse him and take advantage of his mental instability at the time.

I believe it was Madara and Danzo's doing here. They toyed with Itachi's mind so that he would ultimately carry out the massacre sparing no one even the innocents. In fact, they wouldn't even need Shisui's eye for this. Madara's mind games were more than enough to mess with Itachi. Itachi, as smart as he was (possibly on par with Shikamaru at the time) couldn't possibly think straight enough as his mind had yet to fully mature at such a young age. As for Shisui, he may have also been messed up by Danzo as well, but he realized what Danzo and Madara was truly aiming for. Alas, it was already too late when he realized it, as a result, he lost his left eye to Danzo. As a last resort, he passed his right eye onto Itachi.

That's my take on it.

You may be shocked Codus but this was very close to what I was going to weigh in on about Itachi.
So I'll just add on. Itachi's mind was shattered already when he participated in the massacre. Remember what we do know. Apparently the Kyuubi attack made Itachi strongly wish for peace. He became a ninja because it was expected of him- but unlike most Uchiha, this just deepened his love for Konoha. As he grew older and began to discover what evil his clan planned he began to grow distant from his family- with the exception of Sasuke. Joining ANBU began his mental breakdown- remember the words of other Uchiha in the flashback when they talked about how "Itachi had changed in the six months since he joined ANBU." (Remember at this time Danzo wasn't discredited and was intimately involved in everything ANBU did.) Madara was playing both sides against the other it sounds like. Then came the massacre- that permanently shattered Itachi's mind. Thus the tormenting of Sasuke- the one person he loved more than Konoha. He wanted Sasuke to be strong, strong enough to kill him and strong enough to resist Madara. He chose the wrong methods, and lead Sasuke to becoming what he is.

But, yes, I have much more sympathy for Itachi- other than what he wrongly thought was the best way to make Sasuke strong enough, he basically wasn't given very many real options in his life. The few times he did, we see him sometimes take the better choice- how he protects Konoha from the Akatsuki while he was alive, choosing to run away from Jiraiya (and almost certainly was Jiraiya's spy in the Akatsuki), and after he finally got to know Naruto enough, deciding to give him something he thought might help with the fight to save Sasuke. And now, somewhat freed from some of his crushing burdens he helps Naruto fight and also gives him an important piece of advice in this chapter. Naruto has had this weakness since early on in part 1- remember the first bell test? Remember what Kakashi said to him?

Itachi always seemed much more redeemable than Sasuke. Sasuke was a lot more likely Akatsuki member than Itachi- except Sasuke doesn't value the bonds of being in a group enough. His problem since the beginning of part 1- again the first bell test and Kakashi's words... Plus Sasuke keeps being given chances and options but almost always he chooses the one that is darker, more evil. Itachi, when he actually saw an option, tended to choose the less harmful one.

The only one of the three that Kakashi's words were too harsh in part 1 and wouldn't fit now at all, is Sakura. She was the only one then who had any concept of helping a team mate in danger (including Naruto). Sakura's problem then to a great extent was her lack of self-confidence- she kind of figured out on her own during the Chunnin Exams how to fight through that. Tsunade helped her even more, but it's still kind of an issue for her. She compares herself to where Naruto and Sasuke are in power and thinks she's pitiful. She needs to look at herself in comparison to less uberpowerful ninjas instead. Chiyo saw she was better than Tsunade when Tsunade was 16. Chiyo was highly impressed with Sakura. Tsunade is impressed by Sakura.

Edited by ciardha, 26 August 2011 - 04:48 AM.

[Konohakitten]

nope, Kabuto never officially said that. And if you don't remember....Orochimaru actually intended to revive Minato during the long long ago Kage Battle arc in part 1. Though most of you don't read Japanese/Chinese, the last coffin had the chinese and japanese character for 4th and the 3rd Hokage also did say he had to do all he could to stop the last coffin. This could only point towards the 4th Hokage.

I do agree that Orochimaru tried to revive the 4th when he fought the 3rd but maybe Kishi made a mistake in doing that. I mean right now on the battle field we don't see the 3rd, 2nd, or 1st Hokage's since they were sealed with the Shiki Fūjin. technique. So why would Minato be there since he went the same way? I can however see Kishi giving Kabuto the ability to come up with some outlandish reason for being able to bring back the 4th and honestly it wont make sense. Especially since it states that when using the Shiki Fūjin all attempts to revive with the Edo Tensin is futile. I see chakra flames on the persons hand and yes it could be Naruto, but Gaara kinda looks mad, instead of happy and relieved....then again Gaara isn't one for emotions. I can see it being Naruto and Gaara being upset that Naruto is out fighting, that would better explain his expression. Anyhow I personally think that Kabuto's trump card is the original sage of six paths.

[pharix]

it's possible that Minato got the idea for the Rasengan from Kushina telling him about the Beast bomb

he knew that Naruto wouldn't be able to make the Kyuubi cooperate like Hachibi does, so he made something similar to compensate

I don't know where your idea that it's Kushina doing the Rasengan came from though O.o

[RedDelicious]

As other people have mentioned, there are not many candidates for rasengan users with (what looks like) Kyuubi-chakra mode.
It has been a while since we've seen the army of Naruto shadow clones, at least some of them should have reached the front lines by now.

As far as being arrogant, remember that half the ninjas died while he was being pampered in a cave. Of course he is going to feel that he needs to shoulder some of the burden, to the extent that he thought he has to make up for lost time. (I'm reminded of what Princess Elspeth did with the lottery, in the movie "Dragonslayer".) Hopefully he will find the right balance going forward from now.

It's a symbol for Hinata and Akamaru's feelings for each other. Akamaru's always loved Hinata, and Hinata has only recently realized this. I believe that panel is showing us how Akamaru has finally moved into Hinata's 'line of vision', and that she's finally letting him into her heart. Will anything come of this union? Will the Hyuuga clan even allow it? Do ninja dogs not deserve love? Let's keep reading and find out.

It's so obvious, I don't know why I didn't see it before!
It was bad enough when Kiba was jealous of the attention Hinata was giving to Naruto.
How will he react to Akamaru's betrayal?
Will he join Sasuke, in his desire to make everyone feel the same pain that he does?
(Kiba with bleeding eyes and laughing hysterically would be quite a sight.)

[Nate River]

Ok, here I go with my take on Itachi *rubs hands*

While what everyone else has said is great and all, I think we've missed one thing about Itachi's character as the slayer of the Uchiha clan. His mental condition.

Itachi was only 13 at the time when he carried out the massacre, when Itachi found out about the plans for the coup, he was mentally shocked. It's a lot and too much for a 13-year old to take. Especially when he loved the village. (I believe it was Minato who had a hand in this) Moving on, as he was so young, it would've been easy to confuse him and take advantage of his mental instability at the time.

I believe it was Madara and Danzo's doing here. They toyed with Itachi's mind so that he would ultimately carry out the massacre sparing no one even the innocents. In fact, they wouldn't even need Shisui's eye for this. Madara's mind games were more than enough to mess with Itachi. Itachi, as smart as he was (possibly on par with Shikamaru at the time) couldn't possibly think straight enough as his mind had yet to fully mature at such a young age. As for Shisui, he may have also been messed up by Danzo as well, but he realized what Danzo and Madara was truly aiming for. Alas, it was already too late when he realized it, as a result, he lost his left eye to Danzo. As a last resort, he passed his right eye onto Itachi.

I'm less sympatheic to this argument. Part of it is my profession. On a daily basis I meet people who have turned the removal or shifting of personal responsibility into an art form. I've had an endless list of excuses pitched to me about why nothing is their fault. It's something or someone else.

Anyway, my basic question would then be....if Itachi is less responsible because of his age, mental state, Danzou, and Madara's influence, doesn't Sasuke get to use this excuse as well? From his perspective, he is a six year old who watches his brother murder his parents and entire extended family in what would, at the time, appear to be cold blood for no obviously identifiable reason. So the family he's grown up with is taken away by the person he idolizes the most and he is left growing up alone. It's not clear who, if anyone, took care of him during the next six years.

Yes, the village didn't ostrasize him the way they did Naruto and treated him, at least in the academy, as a prodigy, but as far as anything outside the academy...what did they do? They may have heaped praise on him, but was anyone genuinely there for him at any point prior to that? Naruto at least had Iruka toward the end and to some extend the Third. Sasuke then gets the cursed seal from Orochimaru which is supposed to have a negative influence of over him and draw him to Orchimaru. When he goes with the guy for three years who knows what he is told to him or whatever pyschological pressure is put on him.

He's then told a story of some truth, half-truths, and outright lies by Madara that includes the part about a brother he who was the source of the of his most traumatizing childhood event and, at least in his mind, is pushed to do it by a village that distrusted and wronged his clan. So, in short, the story told by Madara is one is which his clan is repeatedly unjustly oppressed by the Senju and it's decendants. Then when they try to do throw off that oppression, the oppressors use one of Uchiha's own to mercilessly slaughter them all. This is quiet a manipulation by Madara because the impression I am left with by Kishimoto is that the Uchiha, in particular Madara, repeatedly dug their own grave while the story Madara spins is quiet the opposite.

So...people toyed with Itachi. Well, they toyed with Sasuke too, but the sympathy felt for Sasuke, especially on this board, is much less and people are less willing to let Sasuke off with this excuse. If Itachi isn't morally culpable for this decision then Sasuke should at least, get some of the benefit of doubt here if we are going to use age and manipulation as a way to excuse the choice he made.

That said, I actually don't think Sasuke nor Itach should be able to use this as excuse to avoid personal responsibility for their choice. Itachi still chose to kill them all. Sasuke is chosing to pursue vengence on Konoha as punishment. Naruto's own plight illustrates that you can have a crappy past and still make the right decision. Sasuke is responsible for the choices he makes, but so is Itachi.

I think there are both reasons people seem so much more willing, some legit, some not. The important distiction is what they seek to do. Itachi wanted to preserve peace. And while peace itself is not an absolute good (Madara's plan would instill peace, would it not?), the type Itachi wanted is portayed as morally good, while Sasuke wants kill and destroy. And not just those involved, which, if I recall, is made fairly clear by Kishimoto. What they seek is different and because of that Itachi is seen as good and Sasuke seen as bad. Consequently, people are more willing to...at least look past what Itachi did while they can't do anything similar for Sasuke.

And this is where I completely agree with trixie about Kishimoto poorly developing all this. And the more I think about the stronger I feel about this. It's never explored about how pervasive the desire for rebellion is among the clan and who is involved. If there are other innocent children like Sasuke involved then isn't it horribly hypocritical of Itachi to off them, but leave Sasuke because it's his brother. He's human, but Kishimoto ignores all of this.

It's so disappointing that Naruto now knows what Itachi did to him and is a chief reason for Sasuke's current course of action and doesn't question Itachi on the choice he made. Itachi warped his best friends mind and he has nothing to say upon learning the truth of it all? Second, as trixie points out, I don't think it's obvious that Itachi choice was the right one, but is anyone seriously questioning it at this point? Did anyone ever do that? Even Sasuke just shifts blame.

The other reasons I think have to do with double standards because so many people on this board hate Sasuke.

As I said, in my previous post I have some sympathy for Itachi, but that stems primarily from the fact that there was no morally clean choice available too him. Once he decided that the village was something worth protecting, it was chosing between a bunch of bad options regardless if anyone manipulated or pushed him.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I also forgot to mention, thanks for being good sports on my whole "someone's bound to over-analyze the friends picture," when I posted that, I expected that someone might get pissed and start ranting. I was happily proven wrong. XD

[Anguyen92]

^^ Well, a picture is just a picture, it just means that Naruto don't have to do this alone and that he's got good people behind him. If anyone decides to try to really dissect it without really knowing the context of what it really means, then basically they are wasting their time trying to find hiding meanings to it while it's only just what I said in the first sentence.

Edited by Anguyen92, 26 August 2011 - 05:35 PM.

[Super Boom]

I also forgot to mention, thanks for being good sports on my whole "someone's bound to over-analyze the friends picture," when I posted that, I expected that someone might get pissed and start ranting. I was happily proven wrong. XD

^^ Well, a picture is just a picture, it just means that Naruto don't have to do this alone and that he's got good people behind him. If anyone decides to try to really dissect it without really knowing the context of what it really means, then basically they are wasting their time trying to find hiding meanings to it while it's only just what I said in the first sentence.

I guess the way I see it is that, if there's anything there, it's more just related to how Kishi himself feels about the characters, rather than him trying to blatantly hide hints for fans to find. Sakura's more important to the plot, so she's more prominent and closer to Naruto than most of the characters are. As for the rest of the pictures, I think he just organized the characters to make the individual pictures more aesthetically pleasing. Ino and Hinata are shorter than their teammates, so it looks nicer to put them in the center, and their expressions are more related to their personalities. Everything else I just see as sort of random ways to fit everyone in the picture.

The only thing I see that might be a hint is the similar expressions that Sakura and Kushina (on the previous page) have. But I don't really see that as "Leonardo da Kishi" inserting hints as much as just further evidence that he based Kushina's appearance on Sakura's somewhat. But it's still not something prominent enough to use in a shipping argument, in my opinion. I guess it's just one of those things where, if/when we win, we can go back to this scene and say, "Oh yeah, maybe he was hinting at something there..."

Oh, and by the way, I hope no one got the wrong impression by my Aka/Hina joke earlier and thinks I'm a creep. I don't ship bestiality, I just like to joke about crack pairings. On a side note, I wonder if Akamaru will ever learn to speak like Kuromaru (Tsume's partner). It could make that crack pairing slightly less weird, though only slightly.

[Anguyen92]

The only thing I see that might be a hint is the similar expressions that Sakura and Kushina (on the previous page) have. But I don't really see that as "Leonardo da Kishi" inserting hints as much as just further evidence that he based Kushina's appearance on Sakura's somewhat. But it's still not something prominent enough to use in a shipping argument, in my opinion. I guess it's just one of those things where, if/when we win, we can go back to this scene and say, "Oh yeah, maybe he was hinting at something there..."

Well, yeah sure, everything is always in persective when you actually know the ending and you get to see certain things that you did not see before and you go "oh, well there you go." That's actually one of the reasons why I just want Kishi to flat out say that the ending pairing is narusaku so that we can just go ahead and see it unravel for ourselves and be immense by it rather than agrue with two other shipping groups and be all nitpicking and stuff like that.

Edited by Anguyen92, 26 August 2011 - 07:05 PM.