229 replies to this topic

[Pix]

I still can't believe Kishi said that Sakura would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke. That's more sexist than the guys on Mulan that said women can't fight.

If Sakura would have been a terrible person for getting with Naruto then so be it. kitten Hinata's feelings. It would have saved her from the horrible outcome she's in now.

[Aizen-Sama]

If Sakura would have been a terrible person for getting with Naruto then so be it. kitten Hinata's feelings. It would have saved her from the horrible outcome she's in now.

Hinata not getting with Naruto wouldn't have destroyed her. She'd still go on being Hyuuga heir & probably get with Kiba or something. Sakura not getting with Naruto DID destroy her since her only other option as the damned love interest was getting with Sasuke. Kishimoto's sexist like that. Honestly Sakura should've just ended up with Kakashi, getting it on with your ex-sensei is still a better ending than the situation Sakura's in right now.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

If Sasuke was a Corleone then he would be kicked out of the family. 

[BlackBird19]

Kishimoto's depiction of the relationship that is SS is one written solely from his limited perspective. It's highly apparent he's never seen a true abusive relationship or was raised seeing a relationship in which the man comes first and that's the way it is.

 

Having actually been around an abusive relationship I can tell you they are hell to deal with. The abused wife syndrome is a very real thing, and having personally seen a woman who had just been physically attacked immediately defend her husband for said attack is an absolutely jaw dropping, mind numbing and stomach churning thing watch. Logic, even in real life is never found in these kind of relationships. The excuse that was always given was "he's my husband and I love him, I can't help it." 

 

So from that experience I can say that yes, Sakura deserves some blame for her situation and Sarada pushing her for answers about her father and why her relationship is what it is comes to be expected. No matter how hard she's working for Sarada's sake, a child who feels any kind of neglect is gonna lash out at times. Even against the one who's always been there for them.

 

However, as it's been pointed out, the thing that's lacking is the amount of blame that should be on Sasuke. This is where Kishimoto shows not only his favoritism for the character, but his inability to write on any sort of logical level. In an abusive relationship the brunt of the blame should always lay with the abuser, while only partial blame should lie with the abused for their unwillingness to leave the situation. But as we've all seen the remaining SS pro-ending fans seem to have the same affinity towards Sasuke that Kishi himself has. Therefore they have no issues with defending Sasuke while laying most of the blame with Sakura.

 

Of all the things that came from the ending we got, this is by the worst of it. And of course Sasuke's character is right at the center of it. 

Edited by BlackBird19, 30 April 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Dario]

l feel like some fans are being hypocritical when they claim we shouldn't blame Sakura because she's a fictional character but focus on Kishimoto instead. When you say "l love her so much she's a queen" or whatever you're not actually praising Kishimoto, you're treating Sakura as if she was real. Likewise when you get pissed at people who bash Sakura you're separating her from her creator, she has become an independant entity. Why would you blame antis for doing the same only in the opposite way? Either it's all Kishimoto's work and we coldly analyze his writing process or we can interpret these characters as real persons and get a bit emotional with them, which is the basis of being a shipper in the first place. Cherry picking one or the other is dishonest.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Nah. Personally, I don't like it when fellow NS fans let Sakura off the hook. 

 

 

It's not about letting Sakura 'off the hook' or acting as though she's the only character that got an ending she didn't deserve. None of the characters deserved such poor writing. They all should have gotten better than this, not just Sakura.

 

l feel like some fans are being hypocritical when they claim we shouldn't blame Sakura because she's a fictional character but focus on Kishimoto instead. When you say "l love her so much she's a queen" or whatever you're not actually praising Kishimoto, you're treating Sakura as if she was real. Likewise when you get pissed at people who bash Sakura you're separating her from her creator, she has become an independant entity. Why would you blame antis for doing the same only in the opposite way? Either it's all Kishimoto's work and we coldly analyze his writing process or we can interpret these characters as real persons and get a bit emotional with them, which is the basis of being a shipper in the first place. Cherry picking one or the other is dishonest.

 

I just want to make one thing clear -- I don't like any of the characters as they are now, not one of them, including Sakura. And I also don't blame anyone for disliking or even hating Sakura after the ending because they certainly have enough reason to. Sakura is Kishimoto's creation, who at one time he wrote as a 'strong woman' that was flawed but by all indications wanted to overcome those flaws, but in the end she succumbed to them instead. Kishimoto's failure to follow through with what he once wrote has made Sakura a bad character. The writer and the character go hand in hand, they are not separate entities at all.

 

Putting aside any affection I had for Sakura, I can say that yes, she is a terrible and offensively written character now. I won't praise her and in the same breath heap all the blame on Kishimoto, but the reason she is a bad character is not by her own doing but by the writer's. The same goes for all the other characters in this manga that I find poorly written, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Hinata -- the list can just go on and on

 

 

Btw, I'm totally not mad or anything, I'm just trying to be clear in what I'm saying.

[Nate River]

Kishimoto's depiction of the relationship that is SS is one written solely from his limited perspective. It's highly apparent he's never seen a true abusive relationship or was raised seeing a relationship in which the man comes first and that's the way it is.
 
Having actually been around an abusive relationship I can tell you they are hell to deal with. The abused wife syndrome is a very real thing, and having personally seen a woman who had just been physically attacked immediately defend her husband for said attack is an absolutely jaw dropping, mind numbing and stomach churning thing watch. Logic, even in real life is never found in these kind of relationships. The excuse that was always given was "he's my husband and I love him, I can't help it."

It's not the only one. Financial dependence is a common reason. Abject terror is another.
 

So from that experience I can say that yes, Sakura deserves some blame for her situation and Sarada pushing her for answers about her father and why her relationship is what it is comes to be expected. No matter how hard she's working for Sarada's sake, a child who feels any kind of neglect is gonna lash out at times. Even against the one who's always been there for them.

Where I break with many in this thread (and side with Pix) is that there is no "domestic" or "relationship" in SS. Sasuke has pushed her away. Constantly. Did he not openly say he was going on his mission of penance back in 699? It's not like his intentions are unknown.

In abusive relationships the violence is generally a mechanism of control. The issue is that the abused party cannot leave and the abuse is why they can't. Sakura is not in a relationship with him and from the way this has started may never have been. The door has always been open for her to say "I'm done." Sasuke would not have beat her, killed her, or whatever to prevent it. He'd probably just have said: "ok."

Hell he has been AWOL for 12 years (why Konoha allows this is a mystery given what he did right before he left for journey number 2). What abuse has been heaping on her while gone? I guess leaving Sarada behind, but at this point we have no idea if he knew and if he did not if anyone bothered to make an effort to tell him. The circumstances surrounding this are unknown. He might deserve complete condemnation over it, I don't know yet If no one told him or even tried, what was he going to return for? The girl he has been rejecting the entire series?

At someone point, doesn't she bare some responsibility to walk away, especially when Sasuke has all but held the door open the entire time?

The author deserves complete condemnation for writing this dreck. Sasuke may yet deserve his own share, depending on what the circumstances are, but Sakura is making voluntary choices and it's not exactly under duress. Exactly what is compelling her to love him besides a crappy author? What's her excuse (besides being a Kishimoto creation anyway)

Sasuke's crap for the way he treats her and everyone else, but Sakura not exactly blameless here.
 

However, as it's been pointed out, the thing that's lacking is the amount of blame that should be on Sasuke. This is where Kishimoto shows not only his favoritism for the character, but his inability to write on any sort of logical level. In an abusive relationship the brunt of the blame should always lay with the abuser, while only partial blame should lie with the abused for their unwillingness to leave the situation. But as we've all seen the remaining SS pro-ending fans seem to have the same affinity towards Sasuke that Kishi himself has. Therefore they have no issues with defending Sasuke while laying most of the blame with Sakura.

Kishimoto definitely favors him. The Great Sasuke Character Shield will be in force yet again. Yes, the abuser should get all the blame in such a relationship, but SS, right now is not really analogous to the type of relationship people are comparing it to.

I'm not doing this because of any desire to protect Sasuke. I think I've shown a complete willingness to heap blame on everyone. I have no problems criticizing Sasuke, but right now, I can only go with the info that I have.

[Dario]

 

It's not about letting Sakura 'off the hook' or acting as though she's the only character that got an ending she didn't deserve. None of the characters deserved such poor writing. They all should have gotten better than this, not just Sakura.

 

 

I just want to make one thing clear -- I don't like any of the characters as they are now, not one of them, including Sakura. And I also don't blame anyone for disliking or even hating Sakura after the ending because they certainly have enough reason to. Sakura is Kishimoto's creation, who at one time he wrote as a 'strong woman' that was flawed but by all indications wanted to overcome those flaws, but in the end she succumbed to them instead. Kishimoto's failure to follow through with what he once wrote has made Sakura a bad character. The writer and the character go hand in hand, they are not separate entities at all.

 

Putting aside any affection I had for Sakura, I can say that yes, she is a terrible and offensively written character now. I won't praise her and in the same breath heap all the blame on Kishimoto, but the reason she is a bad character is not by her own doing but by the writer's. The same goes for all the other characters in this manga that I find poorly written, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Hinata -- the list can just go on and on

 

 

Btw, I'm totally not mad or anything, I'm just trying to be clear in what I'm saying.

That's cool, we're on the same page.

[Aizen-Sama]

None of these characters deserved the ending they got but let's compare who got what:
Naruto is Hokage with a beautiful wife he was retconned into loving along with some kids.
Hinata got her man & is a happy mother in Hokage tower.
Shikamaru & Temari married and had a kid.
Ino moved on and got with Sai.
Sasuke may have been forced to get with Sakura but he still left on his own accord and has been wandering around for 12 years doing god knows what.
Sakura is a single mother in a broken house, struggling with money & fainting with a child that might not even be her's. Her husband has left her for 12 years.
Only Sakura doesn't get the retconned happy ending. That alone tells you something about Kishimoto & is the reason why many Sakura fans are extra defensive about defending her. They feel she was given the short end of the stick (as always).

[BlackBird19]

@ Nate: I'll go ahead and give you more backstory as to why I related SS to the relationship I'm talking about. The people I referred to were my aunt and uncle. And it was as bad a relationship as you could've ever heard of, let alone seen.

 

My uncle was physically abusive yes, but those times were not often. He was much more of a verbal and emotional abuser. He would disappear quite often for long periods of time abandoning her and my cousins and suddenly reappear out of nowhere. He was a murderer, who killed a man in cold-blood for hitting on his mistress. That's right, he was also a cheater who had another family with another woman and made sure my aunt knew. Something she made sure to hide from her kids.

 

He also went to prison for a number of years and was not the bread winner of the family, my aunt was. Yet for some reason she stayed true to him until the day they both died. There was nothing, absolutely nothing tying my aunt to him yet she stayed or waited for him to come home for the simple reason that she couldn't let him go. 

 

The thing that got me the most though was that my aunt was strong, independent and wasn't scared of anything until that man came around. Then she became the subservient suzy-homemaker that was the complete opposite of her natural personality. Sound vaguely familiar. And believe me I wish I was making this up.

 

That's what I was referring to in terms of the abused wife syndrome. The abuser somehow keeps a hold on the abused in some form or fashion that isn't always easy to explain or comprehend. It's not just out of terror and fear tactics or holding something over their head.

[Aizen-Sama]

@ Nate: I'll go ahead and give you more backstory as to why I related SS to the relationship I'm talking about. The people I referred to were my aunt and uncle. And it was as bad a relationship as you could've ever heard of, let alone seen.
 
My uncle was physically abusive yes, but those times were not often. He was much more of a verbal and emotional abuser. He would disappear quite often for long periods of time abandoning her and my cousins and suddenly reappear out of nowhere. He was a murderer, who killed a man in cold-blood for hitting on his mistress. That's right, he was also a cheater who had another family with another woman and made sure my aunt knew. Something she made sure to hide from her kids.
 
He also went to prison for a number of years and was not the bread winner of the family, my aunt was. Yet for some reason she stayed true to him until the day they both died. There was nothing, absolutely nothing tying my aunt to him yet she stayed or waited for him to come home for the simple reason that she couldn't let him go. 
 
The thing that got me the most though was that my aunt was strong, independent and wasn't scared of anything until that man came around. Then she became the subservient suzy-homemaker that was the complete opposite of her natural personality. Sound vaguely familiar. And believe me I wish I was making this up.
 
That's what I was referring to in terms of the abused wife syndrome. The abuser somehow keeps a hold on the abused in some form or fashion that isn't always easy to explain or comprehend. It's not just out of terror and fear tactics or holding something over their head.

That's crazy... O.o I didn't know you had first-hand experience with this.
I agree this very much sounds like Sakura and the hold Sasuke's got over her (whether he wants it or not). SS is a very sick relationship.

[BlackBird19]

It was hard to watch Aizen. The similarity to what I saw so often growing up and what Kishi wrote for the SS relationship just chilled me to the bone. They were so eerily similar that it was the first time I had ever rooted for a pairing not to be made. I always look at fiction for what it is, entertainment. However the Sakura and Sasuke dynamic just rehashed a lot those memories and I actually wound up hoping a character, a fictional character got the happy ending my aunt didn't get.

 

That became one of two big reasons for me to dislike Kishi. The other reason being the hack job he did for the last 1/3 of the manga.

[Nate River]

@ Nate: I'll go ahead and give you more backstory as to why I related SS to the relationship I'm talking about. The people I referred to were my aunt and uncle. And it was as bad a relationship as you could've ever heard of, let alone seen.

 

My uncle was physically abusive yes, but those times were not often. He was much more of a verbal and emotional abuser. He would disappear quite often for long periods of time abandoning her and my cousins and suddenly reappear out of nowhere. He was a murderer, who killed a man in cold-blood for hitting on his mistress. That's right, he was also a cheater who had another family with another woman and made sure my aunt knew. Something she made sure to hide from her kids.

 

He also went to prison for a number of years and was not the bread winner of the family, my aunt was. Yet for some reason she stayed true to him until the day they both died. There was nothing, absolutely nothing tying my aunt to him yet she stayed or waited for him to come home for the simple reason that she couldn't let him go. 

 

The thing that got me the most though was that my aunt was strong, independent and wasn't scared of anything until that man came around. Then she became the subservient suzy-homemaker that was the complete opposite of her natural personality. Sound vaguely familiar. And believe me I wish I was making this up.

 

That's what I was referring to in terms of the abused wife syndrome. The abuser somehow keeps a hold on the abused in some form or fashion that isn't always easy to explain or comprehend. It's not just out of terror and fear tactics or holding something over their head.

 

 

I'm a prosecutor. It's obviously not the same, but I am very familiar with concept and have seen it action many times.

[Aizen-Sama]

 
 
I'm a prosecutor. It's obviously not the same, but I am very familiar with concept and have seen it action many times.

Oh my God Nate River's a prosecutor... 0.O No wonder why he's always on our asses about the rules.

[BlackBird19]

@Nate: Cool, I'm a cop. So you can guess how great my life's been lately.

[Aizen-Sama]

Cool, I'm a cop. So you can guess how great my life's been lately.

Oh my...

[griff142]

Honestly you can't blame a character for anything that was doomed from the first place and was never given a chance. Sakura was the main heroine but the fandom didn't accept it and Kishi continued to be lazy with her character. Then he at the end finally destroyed the character for Hinatadama. I hate how Sakura is the scapegoat when it the writers fault. She was building to be great and Kishi just didn't do enough for Sakura which shows how bad his writing really is.

Edited by griff142, 01 May 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[BlackBird19]

Don't worry Aizen, I'm not a 24/7 cop. Unless I'm on call.

 

@griff: Yeah I mentioned in another thread that Kishi's initial depiction of Sakura ruined her from the get go. The fans just never got past her introductory personality. They refused to give her a chance.

[rocci]

Don't worry Aizen, I'm not a 24/7 cop. Unless I'm on call.
 
@griff: Yeah I mentioned in another thread that Kishi's initial depiction of Sakura ruined her from the get go. The fans just never got past her introductory personality. They refused to give her a chance.

The character doom the moment the author give up on her.
But this is the author who thoughts giving her beauty will make her character more popular. It's like hate male character get more handsome and hope fan will love him.

[Havikinazuma]

The character doom the moment the author give up on her.
But this is the author who thoughts giving her beauty will make her character more popular. It's like hate male character get more handsome and hope fan will love him.

It's crazy isn't it? Looking back on the manga, she really hasn't done anything to deserve the hate she gets though. Everyone just ride along hate trains, without knowing why, and without good reason.