19964 replies to this topic

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

1. I said among others. Sakura was clearly one of the main reasons, or else, Kishi wouldn't have done an emphasis on that. Actually, yes, among the other things, Sakura's drive was a resolve for him with Sasuke, back in the Kage Summit Arc.

You see, I don't believe that Kishi has ever really emphasized Sakura's role in Naruto's life. She has been there and supported and motivated him, but I don't see Kishi emphasizing this all that much. Hinata has been there for Naruto and supported him and motivated him, and Kishi chose to emphasize that with the entire chapter 615. Sakura is just one person amongst many to be there for Naruto. Like she says in ch 573 herself.

2. Well, the fact that it's there doesn't make it any less important than the others... Sorry, but then you clearly misunderstood the whole bonds idea.

Sakura's bond with Naruto is less important to Naruto than his bond with Sasuke. Do you disagree with this?

[Chatte]

You see, I don't believe that Kishi has ever really emphasized Sakura's role in Naruto's life. She has been there and supported and motivated him, but I don't see Kishi emphasizing this all that much. Hinata has been there for Naruto and supported him and motivated him, and Kishi chose to emphasize that with the entire chapter 615. Sakura is just one person amongst many to be there for Naruto. Like she says in ch 573 herself.


Sakura's bond with Naruto is less important to Naruto than his bond with Sasuke. Do you disagree with this?

1. So chapter 615 makes-up for all that time? Makes up for him wanting to train harder to gain her affection, or for him fighting with gaara like mad for her, or for him going after Sasuke the biggest drive being Sakura.
Hinata has been there when exactly? Only 2 instances. Pein and the War Arc, that's it, whereas Sakura's moments are more than this and Kishi's emphasis are a proof.

2. Yes, I do.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

You see, I don't believe that Kishi has ever really emphasized Sakura's role in Naruto's life. She has been there and supported and motivated him, but I don't see Kishi emphasizing this all that much. Hinata has been there for Naruto and supported him and motivated him, and Kishi chose to emphasize that with the entire chapter 615. Sakura is just one person amongst many to be there for Naruto. Like she says in ch 573 herself.


Sakura's bond with Naruto is less important to Naruto than his bond with Sasuke. Do you disagree with this?

You said like she supported him and motivated him all the time.
One chapter, he didnt emphasize with the entire chapter, and she didnt do that alone, it was Hinata, Neji and Kyuubi.
he thanked both of them, it would be selfish from Naruto's part but Naruto thanked Neji too, and the kyuubi had a major role on driving Naruto's back, while Hinata was saying all those things, Neji's words were still echoing though Naruto's mind.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 03 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You said like she supported him and motivated him all the time.
One chapter, he didnt emphasize with the entire chapter, and she didnt do that alone, it was Hinata, Neji and Kyuubi.
he thanked both of them, it would be selfish from Naruto's part but Naruto thanked Neji too, and the kyuubi had a major role on driving Naruto's back, while Hinata was saying all those things, Neji's words were still echoing though Naruto's mind.

Very true.

And in the long haul, Hinata's been supportive, but not as supportive as she could be, considering that she also had times where she didn't know if Naruto'd succeed or not, and even wanted him to quit, like when he was hit by Neji's 8 Trigrams 64 Palms. Or her concern when Obito knocked Naruto around, in spite of the fact that Obito should have been her focus.

And I know what a debate thread is, Coffee. It doesn't mean you gotta be arrogant about your opinions. After all, we're all trying to point out stuff too and you're making it seem like we're in the wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, y'know?

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

1. So chapter 615 makes-up for all that time? Makes up for him wanting to train harder to gain her affection, or for him fighting with gaara like mad for her, or for him going after Sasuke the biggest drive being Sakura.
Hinata has been there when exactly? Only 2 instances. Pein and the War Arc, that's it, whereas Sakura's moments are more than this and Kishi's emphasis are a proof.

Kishi seems to think that it does since he writes Naruto to thank Hinata for always being there for him. Kishi has chosen to make a significant moment of Hinata helping Naruto in ch 615.

2. Yes, I do.

So what examples from the manga can you provide that show that Naruto values Sakura as much as Sasuke? Thinks of her as much? Because we have scene in the manga where Naruto promises to die with Sasuke to be with Sasuke, because Sasuke is that important. Where is the concern for Sakura in that scene? Where is Naruto's desire to live to be with Sakura, to live a life with her? I will not be convinced that Naruto values Sakura as much as he values Sasuke unless the manga starts to make Naruto act like it.

for him going after Sasuke the biggest drive being Sakura.

Let us put this argument for rest, for once and for all. Sakura is not, never has been and never will be the biggest drive for Naruto to want bring Sasuke back.

http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html
http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html

And countless of other examples ever since Sasuke walked out of Konoha. Naruto himself has put this argument to rest.

And I know what a debate thread is, Coffee. It doesn't mean you gotta be arrogant about your opinions. After all, we're all trying to point out stuff too and you're making it seem like we're in the wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, y'know?

Only when you, you know, actually are.

Major edit to add:

I think that Sakura and Hinata have both been there for Naruto and supported him as good friends do. Now it seems that Hinata is finally stepping up to take a bigger role in Naruto's life. Previously she had remained in the background, but now she stands next to him, fighting with him and inspiring him. She seems to want a bigger role in Naruto's life, and my guess is that Kishi will let her have her wish. Sakura, on the contrast, has been in the background. She hasn't made a move to be there next to Naruto. Seems to me she is content with the role she gets in his life: the role of a supportive friend. If she expresses desire to be more for Naruto, then NS still has a chance. So far she hasn't.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 03 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Chatte]

Kishi seems to think that it does since he writes Naruto to thank Hinata for always being there for him. Kishi has chosen to make a significant moment of Hinata helping Naruto in ch 615.


So what examples from the manga can you provide that show that Naruto values Sakura as much as Sasuke? Thinks of her as much? Because we have scene in the manga where Naruto promises to die with Sasuke to be with Sasuke, because Sasuke is that important. Where is the concern for Sakura in that scene? Where is Naruto's desire to live to be with Sakura, to live a life with her? I will not be convinced that Naruto values Sakura as much as he values Sasuke unless the manga starts to make Naruto act like it.


Let us put this argument for rest, for once and for all. Sakura is not, never has been and never will be the biggest drive for Naruto to want bring Sasuke back.

http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html
http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html

And countless of other examples ever since Sasuke walked out of Konoha. Naruto himself has put this argument to rest.


Only when you, you know, actually are.

1. He was referring at the specific moment with her protecting him and being there for him all along the Obito situation.

2. Yes, he promises to die with Sasuke because he doesn't want to let that happen again. Sasuke attacking others, specially Sakura. I think the look he gave him makes it pretty clear. Body language, once again.

3. Never has been? Oh, lol,



You contradict yourself.

Naruto said that because he didn't want her to worry about the promise, I thought by this time you should've known him better that when it comes to this, he will hide things and look for other, let's say, excuses, though it's not for more of the part, but he still didn't want to tell her everything.
Just explain him that now, he understands why Sasuke did it.
Remember that at first, Naruto didn't understood very well why Sasuke was doing such things, afterwards, he learned about Sasuke's desire to go to Orochimaru and, after why didn't he return to Konoha.


It's about understanding Sasuke's character's actions, why didn;t he came back after killing Itachi not devaluating the bond Sakura and Naruto have.
But nice try to downplay it, though.

If the bond wouldn't have been there, Naruto wouldn't have rescued Sakura and gave Sasuke that killing intent look.

Edited by Chatte, 03 January 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Kishi seems to think that it does since he writes Naruto to thank Hinata for always being there for him. Kishi has chosen to make a significant moment of Hinata helping Naruto in ch 615.


So what examples from the manga can you provide that show that Naruto values Sakura as much as Sasuke? Thinks of her as much? Because we have scene in the manga where Naruto promises to die with Sasuke to be with Sasuke, because Sasuke is that important. Where is the concern for Sakura in that scene? Where is Naruto's desire to live to be with Sakura, to live a life with her? I will not be convinced that Naruto values Sakura as much as he values Sasuke unless the manga starts to make Naruto act like it.


Let us put this argument for rest, for once and for all. Sakura is not, never has been and never will be the biggest drive for Naruto to want bring Sasuke back.

http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html
http://www.mangapand...hapter-470.html

And countless of other examples ever since Sasuke walked out of Konoha. Naruto himself has put this argument to rest.


Only when you, you know, actually are.

Major edit to add:

I think that Sakura and Hinata have both been there for Naruto and supported him as good friends do. Now it seems that Hinata is finally stepping up to take a bigger role in Naruto's life. Previously she had remained in the background, but now she stands next to him, fighting with him and inspiring him. She seems to want a bigger role in Naruto's life, and my guess is that Kishi will let her have her wish. Sakura, on the contrast, has been in the background. She hasn't made a move to be there next to Naruto. Seems to me she is content with the role she gets in his life: the role of a supportive friend. If she expresses desire to be more for Naruto, then NS still has a chance. So far she hasn't.

There's a lot of statements that does not prove it like Shikaku once said "He makes me want to walk with him", "inspiring him" i doubt about it one chapter does not erase what she did, Hinata wanting a bigger role on other person's life this is from someome who's selfish, you're making an overall assumption based on the last chapter her development ended there and Naruto didnt acknowledge her as an important person above all the others.
Neji was there too, and even with all those desires Hinata got what she wanted which was to hold his hand, kishi give it but she does not need Naruto anymore.
Sakura is different in other hand saying that she contents with the role of a supportive friend, you forgot about all the panels that she wanted to be more usefull for Naruto.
But different than Hinata she's not driven by Naruto 24/7 she's not selfish.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Chatte, we all know that that Naruto made the PoaL to Sakura. But it is not the number one reason why he wants Sasuke back. I stated this clearly. How can this be unclear?

[tricksie]

This is called a debate thread, you know. What did you think the word meant? Complete agreement on everything?

And I know what a debate thread is, Coffee. It doesn't mean you gotta be arrogant about your opinions. After all, we're all trying to point out stuff too and you're making it seem like we're in the wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, y'know?

Only when you, you know, actually are.

Poison, I think the mods have been patient with you so far. But if you are going to participate in this debate thread, the rules are pretty clear at the top. Be respectful. You are free to disagree without being caustic.

Same goes for everyone else. If you disagree, then be done with it and walk away. Don't hang around and pass judgement on someone else's beliefs.

Naruto fans can have enjoyable debates with any shipper. But being respectful is the only way that's possible.

[Chatte]

Chatte, we all know that that Naruto made the PoaL to Sakura. But it is not the number one reason why he wants Sasuke back. I stated this clearly. How can this be unclear?

And how was it unclear my explanation?

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

1. He was referring at the specific moment with her protecting him and being there for him all along the Obito situation.

He could be. But earlier he thanked Hinata for saving his life in the Pain arc. Now she is helping him again. Naruto could have noticed this himself and is thanking her literally for everything.

2. Yes, he promises to die with Sasuke because he doesn't want to let that happen again. Sasuke attacking others, specially Sakura. I think the look he gave him makes it pretty clear. Body language, once again.

Why not just kill Sasuke and live with Sakura? Naruto is not even sad when considering his death with Sasuke. He is not thinking how, thanks to his sacrifice, Sakura can live on. He does not regret that he will never have a life with her. Nothing. Just "let's die, Sasuke, and be together. So glad I met you. You are my friend."

And how was it unclear my explanation?

Because you seem to think that I think that the promise never in any way motivated Naruto. It did. But Naruto always wanted to save Sasuke. He was leaving to save him, standing at the gates ready to go when Sakura comes and then Naruto makes his promise. The promise has never been Naruto's main reason, main drive, number one reason to get Sasuke back. It did play a part, but is not why Naruto wants Sakura back. So you cannot say that Sakura is the only or the main reason why Naruto wants Sasuke back.

Only when you, you know, actually are.

Poison, I think the mods have been patient with you so far. But if you are going to participate in this debate thread, the rules are pretty clear at the top. Be respectful. You are free to disagree without being caustic.

Same goes for everyone else. If you disagree, then be done with it and walk away. Don't hang around and pass judgement on someone else's beliefs.

Naruto fans can have enjoyable debates with any shipper. But being respectful is the only way that's possible.

I apologize. I should not have said it at all.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 03 January 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Major edit to add:

I think that Sakura and Hinata have both been there for Naruto and supported him as good friends do. Now it seems that Hinata is finally stepping up to take a bigger role in Naruto's life. Previously she had remained in the background, but now she stands next to him, fighting with him and inspiring him. She seems to want a bigger role in Naruto's life, and my guess is that Kishi will let her have her wish. Sakura, on the contrast, has been in the background. She hasn't made a move to be there next to Naruto. Seems to me she is content with the role she gets in his life: the role of a supportive friend. If she expresses desire to be more for Naruto, then NS still has a chance. So far she hasn't.

Naruto didnt put her above everyone else or above Neji, he thanked both.

The second bolded is about her development everyone is there fighting with Naruto.
This just sounds selfish.

So many panels about sakura expressing that she wanted to be more usefull for him, wanting to help him, take of his burden.
that pretty much proves that you're reading another manga.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 03 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Chatte, we all know that that Naruto made the PoaL to Sakura. But it is not the number one reason why he wants Sasuke back. I stated this clearly. How can this be unclear?

Well, Naruto may say it, but I bet he's just trying to NOT admit that that's the case. I like to think he's doing it for Sakura and just said what he said to not let her know the truth. Afte rall, he at least gets Sasuke's desire for revenge, BUT he's better than Sasuke since he felt revenge, but didn't let it consume him. Plus he knows it must be hard that Itachi really DID do what Obito said to them, even if others didn't want to believe it.

And let's face it; Naruto saying he won't tell Sakura how he feels until he gets his promise complete tells me he kind of lied when he said he also wanted to save Sasuke for himself just to not let go of it due to his naively thinking he understood Sakura's feelings when he didn't. She may be confused, ut she knows she is trying to figure it out.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Well, Naruto may say it, but I bet he's just trying to NOT admit that that's the case. I like to think he's doing it for Sakura and just said what he said to not let her know the truth. Afte rall, he at least gets Sasuke's desire for revenge, BUT he's better than Sasuke since he felt revenge, but didn't let it consume him. Plus he knows it must be hard that Itachi really DID do what Obito said to them, even if others didn't want to believe it. And let's face it; Naruto saying he won't tell Sakura how he feels until he gets his promise complete tells me he kind of lied when he said he also wanted to save Sasuke for himself just to not let go of it due to his naively thinking he understood Sakura's feelings when he didn't. She may be confused, ut she knows she is trying to figure it out.

First of all, I'm sorry for being mean to you earlier.

As for your post. See, I can't agree at all. It has been so clear since Sasuke left that it was for Sasuke and himself that Naruto wanted to save Sasuke. Like I said: Naruto was leaving to save Sasuke, standing at the gates ready to go when Sakura comes and then Naruto makes his promise. I honestly don't know how you can see it differently. Everything in the manga goes against Sakura being the main reason for wanting Sasuke back. Naruto does not in any way even mention that promise in the part 2, all his reasons have to do with Sasuke and Naruto's bond.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well, Naruto may say it, but I bet he's just trying to NOT admit that that's the case. I like to think he's doing it for Sakura and just said what he said to not let her know the truth. Afte rall, he at least gets Sasuke's desire for revenge, BUT he's better than Sasuke since he felt revenge, but didn't let it consume him. Plus he knows it must be hard that Itachi really DID do what Obito said to them, even if others didn't want to believe it.

And let's face it; Naruto saying he won't tell Sakura how he feels until he gets his promise complete tells me he kind of lied when he said he also wanted to save Sasuke for himself just to not let go of it due to his naively thinking he understood Sakura's feelings when he didn't. She may be confused, ut she knows she is trying to figure it out.

You're right, Sakura is the main reason why he wanted to bring sasuke's back but now it's not the reasons why he wants to save sasuke notice that bring sasuke's back it's not the same as saving him.

Notice that he said "i want to help/save sasuke" in contrast to what he said "i'll bring sasuke back".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 03 January 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[tricksie]

I apologize. I should not have said it at all.

S'alright. I love seeing things from other perspectives. Especially the shipping stuff. I know that sounds crazy. I'm always curious as to how and why I see things one way and someone else sees the same thing in a completely different way. And curteous debate makes for better fans/readers/thinkers.

I'm off this thread.
At least i know that i should avoid the debate thread when you start posting.
I'm not trying to be rude mods but srsly cant stand this.
Looks like it's intentional.

I think that's wise. If you are not going to heed what I just posted, then yeah...there's really not point in engaging in debate. You are free to disagree and not participate.

But watch the personal targeting in the posts. I only have so much patience for this.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You're right, Sakura is the main reason why he wanted to bring sasuke's back but now it's not the reasons why he wants to save sasuke notice that bring sasuke's back it's not the same as saving him.

Notice that he said "i want to help/save sasuke" in contrast to what he said "i'll bring sasuke back".

Exactly. Too bad with doing this that Naruto doesn't realize he's hurting Sakura more, since she's been visibily concerned for him, and he's just brushed it off each time, like when she was crying after learning that a Jinchuriki dies when their Biju was removed from their body and knowing that means Naruto would die, something she didn't want, or even when she was crying at his recovery at the Heaven & Earth Bridge. Or her hugging him after bonking him for his recklessness vs. Pain, even if she knew he'd come back, considering her "Thank you" was likely due to his coming back alive and for protecting everyone, like she knew he would.

I think that's wise. If you are not going to heed what I just posted, then yeah...there's really not point in engaging in debate. You are free to disagree and not participate.

Yeah, I'm trying to be bigger about it too, Tricksie, and it isn't easy, so I think when Poison posts, I'm out too since she is really trying to get to me a little. And I know she has her own opinions, and I'm trying my damnedest to be respectable to them. It just isn't as easy as it could be, but if I just walk away, it may help a LOT.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 03 January 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

So what would convince you that Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back/save him is not motivated mainly by Sakura?

Because what does not convince you include:

-Naruto saying so
-Naruto ready to leave after Sasuke before hearing from Sakura
-Shizune's trusted word doesn't weight anything to you either
-more

I feel that the upcoming weeks with possible NH canon are going to be very interesting if you haven't yet even accepted that Sakura is not even the main reason for Naruto wanting Sasuke back.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 03 January 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[tricksie]

Yeah, I'm trying to be bigger about it too, Tricksie, and it isn't easy, so I think when Poison posts, I'm out too since she is really trying to get to me a little. And I know she has her own opinions, and I'm trying my damnedest to be respectable to them. It just isn't as easy as it could be, but if I just walk away, it may help a LOT.

And that's a perfectly reasonable way to be. There are a few people that I choose not to engage in debate. Simply because it makes me crazy! But that's my choice, not theirs. Debate isn't about agreement, or swaying one party to another side. Good debate manages to shed even a little light on something you hadn't thought of before, and that's good enough. And when you get to a point where you can't take anymore, then politely bow out, dignity intact.

edit: and the same is true if someone is hardcore trying to force you to see their beliefs without ever acknowledging that your beliefs are valid to you. When I see that happening, I know the person is more interested in winning the argument (not because we both have very good reasons behind what we believe and we both will walk away maybe not in agreement, but all the better for it). Anyway, there are always good reasons to walk away.

Besides, it's never the argument that matters, it's only how you handle it afterwards that counts.

[Gravenimage]

So what would convince you that Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back/save him is not motivated mainly by Sakura?

Because what does not convince you include:

-Naruto saying so
-Naruto ready to leave after Sasuke before hearing from Sakura
-Shizune's trusted word doesn't weight anything to you either
-more

I feel that the upcoming weeks with possible NH canon are going to be very interesting if you haven't yet even accepted that Sakura is not even the main reason for Naruto wanting Sasuke back.

Possible NH canon??? Hm...right I'll hold on to you on that. Let's see if chapter 616 is the official chapter NH becomes canon or just another trolling move from Kishi. I will stand by my theory Kishi is only using Hinata (as pairing fodder she is) to make NS canon. I hope I hear from you when the chapter is release and you see there's no NH is canon in there. And I'm not being arrogant I'm just being logical and realistic because as I said many times before 615 is like 437 all over again when the chapter that was "supposedly" make NH canon was nothing but trolling from Kishi since he only used Hinata to make Naruto go nine tails and not to accept her confession and make the pairing canon. We all know how that ended after Naruto got hugged by Sakura and he didn't even thought about Hinata or even went to check on her if she was all right.