Okay, I have some time to kill. I’ll give it a shot. I wouldn’t really call this bashing as past she sticks to arguments rather than insulting the pairing or its fans. Krazy, if you wish to use it on gaiaonline, go ahead.
I was initially going to say something about the seesaw theory. However, since it is mostly about why she likes or dislikes pairings I am going to leave it alone for the most part. People can like pairings for any reason they want. So, I will only mention it to the extent it is used as an actual argument.
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You might as well kill Chouji off!
In turn, if InoCho happened, there would be some balance added to the team.
Not really. The problem is that this implies a very limited purpose for him and his Team. Chouji does not exist just to be paired off nor is he a wasted or useless character if he is not. To be honest, Chouji seems like the type who would be happy for them, after all it’s two of his closest friends finding happiness in each other.
As a reason for liking pairings it’s fine, but as an argument it is a bit weak because it limits character’s romantic development in a particular way without anything to back it up. Before I considered it as an argument I would need proof this is how Kishimoto sees it. For example, that it had anything to do with the fact that Shikamaru getting with Temari or, should it happen, Naruto and Hinata.
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No. I'm pretty sure Kishimoto represented each character's immaturity in their childhood crushes: Lee's for Sakura, Ino's for Sasuke, etc. When they lose the crushes, they lose their immaturity from Part1.
However, doesn’t Naruto’s seem a lot more genuine? Unlike many of the others, Naruto sacrifices, and does so significantly, despite it not being in his best interest. Moreover the manga clearly lays a reason for the crush that goes beyond “Oh she’s pretty” or “Oh he so cool.” People’s maturity/immaturity were show in multiple ways not just crushes. Naruto’s was his impulsiveness, his brashness, and his impatience and not as much through his crush on Sakura. To the extent that the poster means to make a broad sweep, it’s wrong because different characters were shown in different ways.
Second, for the record, this cuts against NaruHina as well. If crushes are designed to show immaturity then Hinata’s on Naruto is a sign of immaturity as well and this poster’s argument suggest she will grow out of it as well. So the obvious questionis what makes Hinata’s crush unique? Is it that she crushes because she admires his determination and sees something she desires in him? If so, then this isn’t much different from Naruto’s crush in Sakura, which initially existed because he saw himself in her the way Hinata wishes she could do with Naruto. In each case, it could be said they identify with their crushes, which defeats this particular argument.
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NaruSaku fan Wrote:
NaruSaku fan: NaruSaku is canon!
Have they told eachother they love eachother? No. Have they kissed? No. I know it is a shonen manga but there are always something that will indicate a pairing is canon.
Here, I agree. NaruSaku is not canon right now. Asuma/Kurenai is the closest. None of the genin pairings are canon as of now.
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Prizes? Sexism alert!
Look people, it wouldn't be the first time the main character would get paired up with a side-character and it certainly wouldn't be the last.
Women aren't prizes to be won.
She’s right, no they are not. But by focusing more on its sexist nature she misses the broader point people are trying to make. When most NaruSaku debaters make this argument, it’s intent is not to devalue women, but really is a brief summary of a broader argument. Look at Naruto’s behavior for much of the serious…he has been seeking Sakura’s acknowledgement AND affection. He didn’t give up the way Ino appears to do with Sasuke. He hasn’t wanted to be with anyone other than her, and this includes Hinata. If Naruto had sought her only because she was cute and done nothing else (i.e. Ino) it would be one thing. However, he protects her, encourages her, even sacrifices his own happiness so that she can have hers. On the other hand, he has done far less for Hinata and without significant additional development, it looks like him being Hinata is a case of her picking of the pieces of Naruto’s failure and the readers feeling good because hey, he didn’t get his first crush, but he has Hinata. That set up looks like Hinata’s the consolation prize. That despite all his work and effort for Sakura we, as readers, should not feel bad because his is still with someone.
On the other hand, she’s right. It would not be the last and I give her credit for not bringing in DBZ immediately, since DBZ’s generally used to demonstrate this point, but isn’t that effective of a comparison for multiple reasons.
EDIT: Saw this in the comments and I coulnd't let it go.
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Great work. Very well thought out and very well written. icon_3nodding.gif
People should also be aware that Naruto is a Shonen series, not a Shoujo series. The chances of Shonen pairings happening is very less likely than that of a Shoujo. Though maybe somewhere in Kishimoto's head, he's thinking of pairing his Bulma (Sakura) with either a Yamcha (Rock Lee) or a Vegeta (Sasuke). He is a DBZ fan after all. Who knows what other influences from the series he can leech off of. icon_xd.gif
Gaara makes a much better Vegeta than Sasuke. >_>;
But thanks! icon_heart.gif
The top part is a comment and NOT the posters. The bottom is her response. Currently, Gaara does because his progression is similar to Vegeta's while Sasuke's is the reverse. I'll just say this: Vegeta/Bulma is probably one of the worst pairing comparisons that can be made because Toriyama paired Vegeta and Bulma to piss of the fans so he would have an excuse to quit writing the series. There is a good reason it was seen coming out of left-field and initially making no sense. It's back fired horribly, but that was what he was doing. Second, I hope (and I think it is) Kishimoto's analysis/admiration of the series is deeper than just basic emulation of form. Admiration does not equal emulation and just because he is a DBZ fan does not mean he intends to copy its pairing structure or that his admiration was rooted in its pairing choice.
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You guys jumped too fast to conclusions. Yamato for one did not finish the statement and Sakura did not answer it. Hell, he could have meant "In reality you are monstruously strong" or "In reality you're in love with someone else". We really don't know.
Oh, and talking about Ch297, guess who was on the cover of that chapter?
I’ll grant her that some NaruSaku fans do take this scene farther than it can go. As far as I can tell, I think she is meaning to say it’s not conclusive proof of love. And it’s not. I think it is very favorable to NaruSaku fans but it’s doesn’t conclusively prove she is in love with him nor make it canon.
However, the specific counter she uses completely ignores the context of the scene. Naruto was just injured from overuse of the Kyuubi and was unconscious on the ground with Sakura right their worried about him. This is when the comment is made. Add to that, Yamato’s facial expression and Sakura’s reaction, and there isn’t way it has to do with her strength or is as opened ended as the poster suggests. There is no doubt it had to do with Sakura’s focusing her attention on Naruto. The precise meaning of the statement is a bit vague, but it’s not that open ended. It was definitely a reference to her concern of Naruto, this much is clear.
We do not know its exact nature, but the entire context in which the scene occurs says a lot about it’s meaning. In other words, we don’t know everything about it, but we do know a lot more than this poster suggests.
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You guessed it, Hinata Hyuuga.
No, it wasn't a coincidence and I'll go more into it later.
(This is probably Kishimoto's way of saying "You guessed wrong! " )
I’ll say two things about this argument. One, the burden to prove it’s validity is ones who make it. To do this, posters are either going to have to find specific statements by Kishimoto that highlight it’s significance or provide concrete examples where the cover has ever had any significant meaning on the contents within. This is the only time where I have ever seen a cover being used as a method to specifically contradict the contents within the chapter itself. There are 337 chapters, and this is one that has special meaning? Why is that the case? Without proof beyond fan speculation, I cannot accept this particular one.
Second, I tend to dislike this because it reeks of selectivity. I am NOT accusing this person of being selective, but I have seen this one a lot and more often than not that is the impression I am left with. However, the argument suggest that we need to go back through every chapter where there was a romantic and see who was on the cover to check for such subtle hints. It means that for every SasuSaku moment, every time Naruto was on the cover, then it was really NaruSaku and so on. I lack the patience to actually do this, but if there is another instance of this occurring that contradicts NaruHina how is it distinguishable from 297? Actually for that matter, what distinguishes 297 from any other chapter cover? Which are subtle hints about the future (romantic are or otherwise) and which are not?
I admit to not providing a specific instance of it not being the case, but if NaruHina fans really want to sell this argument, this is what they have to do. Calling it significant in 297 and leaving it at that isn’t very convincing.
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I'm no hypocrite. I think Kishimoto put the date as his own way of showing us that Sakura forgot her feelings for Sasuke without having to put actual important romance in it and adding to us that ShikaTema hint. Hell, Naruto hadn't even said the word 'date' yet so I don't think it counts in this category. Naruto only teases Sakura, trying to cheer themselves up and doing it for 'old time's sake' and Naruto hasn't mentioned any romantic intentions to Sakura since then. As I mentioned before, Naruto no longer has a crush on Sakura. Oh, and by the way, according to what's translated, Kishimoto mentioned that the date was not romance. No, I am not a hypocrite, love is a general word, romance is not.
I don’t know…Naruto look awfully disappointed when Gama-chan was empty. Actually, I do think NaruSaku fans read more into this than is necessary. If the date had been a significant romance moment, I think we would have seen it. Kishi doesn’t show it occurring. However, in 245 I do believe Naruto says enough of the word that it is clear that is what he meant to say.
Second, this poster confusing Naruto’s a lack of pursuit as a lack of interest. Simply because his not pursuing her the exact same way in Part 2 as he did in Part 1, doesn’t mean he’s totally given up. You can crush on someone without going out of your way to pursue them. Another interpretation is simply that he truly believes she is in love with Sasuke so he is standing back and letting her pursue her happiness. This is what the promise of a lifetime suggests. That he is sacrificing his own happiness so that she may have hers. It is also a sign of maturity. Maturity does not have to mean giving on the crush, a change in approach effectively does the same thing.
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True. But why did the animators necessarily put NaruHina in the fillers? Why'd they do that if they knew it could end some other way ending up with loads of dissapointed fans on their asses? It would be ridiculous and unprofessional. Its absolutely normal for manga authors to tell animators how they're going to end the manga or at least what they have planned. I don't think the animators are stupid enough to put NaruHina in if they knew NaruSaku would or could happen.
The fillers purpose is to kill time, nothing more. Kishi has yet to make a single reference to anything that happened in them in the manga. Until he does so, there is little reason to believe the fillers have any influence on the manga. Almost all of the NaruHina development took place in the chuunin exams. With the exception of a small handful of moments this is the case. Does it not seem odd that Kishi would leave so much development up to the fillers without making any reference to them in the manga?
In some of the fillers Hinata demonstrates a little increased confidence and skill, but this is not the impression he leaves up with in her ONLY Part 2 appearance. Part 2 has being going on for two years and Hinata has barely of a panel of exposure. This is the kind of thing NaruSaku’s talk about when they consistently complain about a lack of development.
What makes it ridiculous and unprofessional?
There is another easy explanation. Hinata’s crush makes easy comedy (which seems to be the primary focus of the fillers). It can be messed with without causing significant interference with the manga’s development. It’s my understanding that Kishi’s role in the anime is minimal. From all I have heard he is, at best, a rubber stamp on it. Second, they may just like Hinata’s character and, thus, are inclined to use her. It’s not stupid to use Hinata. She is a safe character to consistently mess with since her development is limited and her influence on the broader story is, in comparison rather small. They can do all sorts of things with her without contradicting or committing Kishimoto to anything.
Additionally, there are also many cases where the anime actually deviates from the manga. It is not a project involving tons of collaboration between the two.
Anyway, that’s a long post and she makes several other points. For now I this is all I’m going to do and leave the rest up to others. I might address the others later, but I’m not sure.
What do you think?
I'm going to go a step further than Shriner here and say yes, this ENTIRE argument is QUITE selective. Some of the arguments and ideas posted against NaruSaku could very easily be reversed against NaruHina. Not only is this "seesaw effect" pure conjecture, but it has no canon basis, yet it's added as a point "against NaruSaku". Not to mention it doesn't even apply, due to the fact that Sasuke doesn't even LIKE Sakura like that, and the dynamics of that or any team extend far beyond who they're paired with. Miniscule facts are being magnified and heralded as evidence for NaruHina, while entire happenings in the manga for NaruSaku are being downplayed or ignored. Filler used as fact?! Not to mention the filler argument shows how little the poster knows about the manga/anime process. NaruSaku is in fillers too; the post mysteriously neglects that. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not as if the NaruHina fillers have them smexing each other up either.
..... So, Sakura seeing as how in a NaruSaku scenario, Sakura would JUST be starting to come to grips with her feelings for Naruto.... they have near no interaction after coming back from seeing Sasuke again... and they're expected to be all over each other in the next chapter? Right. How about we take manga like Love Hina, where it's even MORE obvious the hero and heroine like each other, a relationship was possible/plausible since Book 5, and it takes them 7 books later to get together? Relationships take time to develop. Some take longer than others. Kishimoto MIGHT want to keep us in suspense. This argument makes no sense.
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