814 replies to this topic

[Slextrem]

Hm, odd. That's exactly what he's been doing for me in the last few chapters. All of my love is shifting to Madara for some reason I can't pin down. I feel like Obito lost most of his menace when he lost the mask.

The reason why I'm starting to turn my nose up at how Kishimoto has been writing Obito recently is because he went from being a character with a twisted noble cause to somebody that wants to make everyone suffer in despair. His new personality is OOC, in my opinion.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

The reason why I'm starting to turn my nose up at how Kishimoto has been writing Obito recently is because he went from being a character with a twisted noble cause to somebody that wants to make everyone suffer in despair. His new personality is OOC, in my opinion.

Well, think of it this way....

Naruto inspires Hope.


What is the opposite of Hope?

Despair.

Clearly, at this point, Obito has become the anti-thesis of Naruto, same with Nagato.
What does Obito seek to do to his enemies? Cause despair, especially towards Naruto, who, for some reason he wants Naruto to understand true despair, true pain. His Punishment Must be More Severe.

And, really, that IS the point. This Obito IS acting OOC, due to Madara's machinations...again.

Really, that arrogant, god-mode sue Uchiha is responsible for practically the villainy of the entire series. He's, like...Satan of the Naruto-verse.

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 24 December 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[redragon88]

Fighting Nagato was about Naruto overcoming hate while fighting Obito seems to be about overcoming despair.

Naruto was challenged with hate because Nagato killed Jiraiya and attacked his village. Seeing people he cared for be threatened by Pain filled him with hate, but he overcame it by choosing not to kill Nagato in their confrontation. While Nagato killed Hanzo for what happened to Yahiko, Naruto decided not to go that same path and decided against murder despite his inner rage.

In the same manner, now with the fight against Obito, Naruto will be challenged with despair. I think the difference between hate and despair is that with despair what you have threatened is not just the people you care for but also your personal believes that involves them. This chapter was a perfect example thanks to Obito's mocking. Naruto had claimed that he wouldn't let any of his friends die, but now all of a sudden that claim is completely broken with Neji's death.

Many might be against it but if the same pattern is going to repeat itself there's a good possibility that Sakura could be in danger. One of Naruto's most precious desires has been to make Sakura happy, so if anything happens to her one can't imagine how would he react. It also give the opportunity to put Naruto in Obito's position, in the same way he was place in Nagato's during the Pain arc.

If that was to happen I can even imagine Obito asking Naruto to help him complete the Moon's Eye plan, and it would also echo Obito's words on how Naruto would eventually become just like him. But as with Nagato, Naruto will overcome the despair and reject Obito's offer.

And I'm pretty sure Sakura will live, whether the injury wasn't fatal enough or revived by rinne tensei.

Edited by redragon88, 24 December 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Slextrem]

In light of what happened to Neji in this chapter, I'm going to go ahead and post my most memorable Neji moment:

[CloudMountainJuror]

You know, it's funny. When he was younger, Neji was pierced with a super arrow through his chest/shoulder that must've been going at at least 50 miles per hour, and even afterwards he was still capable of running and fighting for a limited time. Case in point, he survived.

Now he's older. And he's killed near-instantly by the equivalent of two giant toothpicks.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 24 December 2012 - 07:06 AM.

[Toasty Warrior]

I really wish something like this would happen next chapter:



Meet your maker ten tails!

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I really wish something like this would happen next chapter:



Meet your maker ten tails!

What if everyone is already on a genjutsu world?

trollface.

@i'm sorry but this juubi looks so much like bulbasaur.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 24 December 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[T XD]

What if everyone is already on a genjutsu world?

trollface.

@i'm sorry but this juubi looks so much like bulbasaur.

Bulbasaur ?!!! Aside from the thing on the juubi's back, it's not any near of being somewhat like the appearance of bulabasaur.
This thing looks like an alien with a misshaping look at birth who doesn't even know if he's in reality or in a dream

By the way, I don't think that Lee and Tenten will die. If anything, he'll pick another character from another team or something which I hope not.

[Chucky-kun]

What if everyone is already on a genjutsu world?

trollface.

@i'm sorry but this juubi looks so much like bulbasaur.

Actually it's deoxys mixed with slowbro

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Actually it's deoxys mixed with slowbro

Still dont get even close to the best pokemon ever "Snorlax"
But it looked more like a bulbasaur on the first form.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 24 December 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Fighting Nagato was about Naruto overcoming hate while fighting Obito seems to be about overcoming despair.

Naruto was challenged with hate because Nagato killed Jiraiya and attacked his village. Seeing people he cared for be threatened by Pain filled him with hate, but he overcame it by choosing not to kill Nagato in their confrontation. While Nagato killed Hanzo for what happened to Yahiko, Naruto decided not to go that same path and decided against murder despite his inner rage.

In the same manner, now with the fight against Obito, Naruto will be challenged with despair. I think the difference between hate and despair is that with despair what you have threatened is not just the people you care for but also your personal believes that involves them. This chapter was a perfect example thanks to Obito's mocking. Naruto had claimed that he wouldn't let any of his friends die, but now all of a sudden that claim is completely broken with Neji's death.

Many might be against it but if the same pattern is going to repeat itself there's a good possibility that Sakura could be in danger. One of Naruto's most precious desires has been to make Sakura happy, so if anything happens to her one can't imagine how would he react. It also give the opportunity to put Naruto in Obito's position, in the same way he was place in Nagato's during the Pain arc.

If that was to happen I can even imagine Obito asking Naruto to help him complete the Moon's Eye plan, and it would also echo Obito's words on how Naruto would eventually become just like him. But as with Nagato, Naruto will overcome the despair and reject Obito's offer.

And I'm pretty sure Sakura will live, whether the injury wasn't fatal enough or revived by rinne tensei.

That's actually an interesting observation, although I think Nagato's 'lesson' was more about true pain and suffering that will lead to Hate OR Revenge. It's sort of his introductory to the whole 'cycle of revenge' thing that the Shinobi System perpetuates.

You know, it's funny. When he was younger, Neji was pierced with a super arrow through his chest/shoulder that must've been going at at least 50 miles per hour, and even afterwards he was still capable of running and fighting for a limited time. Case in point, he survived.

Now he's older. And he's killed near-instantly by the equivalent of two giant toothpicks.

Poor Neji, Kishi revoked his Plot Armor for the sake of Plot.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Remember, at this point in time Sasuke was still relatively normal. I think what the commenter was saying that she made her promised Naruto, while Sasuke in this situation is more of a goal than anything else.

Yes, but he is the goal because he is an important person to Sakura. Later we have plenty of moments to comfirm that Sakura has feelings for Sasuke still. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that the only reason why Sakura wants Sasuke back Is just for Naruto's sake.

Well it is similar to why the fandom feels sympathetic to Obito, but not Sasuke. Sasuke became genocidal because the people that were killed was his family was killed. Obito did it because a girl he had a crush on died.

quite frankly I find the Naruto fandom to be very hypocritical and very random in who it decides to comdemn and who to praise. Really? Losing your crush is worse than losing your entire family and this totally justifies massmurder and major brainwashing of the entire world? Dear God, Naruto fandom...

Depends on how you consider a character is "destroyed." What is Gaara remained a psychophathic killer for his life? What if Hinata remained as the silent wallflower? What if all the characters had no development at all?

But, see, Sakura has development. Compare chapters 181 and 483, for example. There is no way that anyone can claim her to be the same now, in ch 614, than in ch 3, either.

I know this question isn't directed at me, but I just wanted to bring up the fact that I personally won't ship them, even if Sasuke returns the feelings. He attacked her, knowing she had her back turned. It's just too similar to real life cases where women return to their abusive husbands because "he promised he'd never do it again." Those promises never last.

Well, if you are interested on my take, read my previous posts on this thread. I did comment on this already so I won't repeat everything as my posts are only couple of pages back. Quick summary, though: fictional manga world has massmurderer convert to team Good because of pep talk. Why would it be impossible for abusive man to go through a change for the better? It is perfectly possible change in the fictional world of Naruto. Gaara has yet to lapse back to his wicked killer ways. Why on earth is Sasuke supposed to be the one who can't change?

Edit. If you are going to answer, maybe do it to the debate thread? So we don't flood this thread more than we already have.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 24 December 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[Chucky-kun]

Yes, but he is the goal because he is an important person to Sakura. Later we have plenty of moments to comfirm that Sakura has feelings for Sasuke still. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that the only reason why Sakura wants Sasuke back Is just for Naruto's sake.


quite frankly I find the Naruto fandom to be very hypocritical and very random in who it decides to comdemn and who to praise. Really? Losing your crush is worse than losing your entire family and this totally justifies massmurder and major brainwashing of the entire world? Dear God, Naruto fandom...



But, see, Sakura has development. Compare chapters 181 and 483, for example. There is no way that anyone can claim her to be the same now, in ch 614, than in ch 3, either.


Well, if you are interested on my take, read my previous posts on this thread. I did comment on this already so I won't repeat everything as my posts are only couple of pages back. Quick summary, though: fictional manga world has massmurderer convert to team Good because of pep talk. Why would it be impossible for abusive man to go through a change for the better? It is perfectly possible change in the fictional world of Naruto. Gaara has yet to lapse back to his wicked killer ways. Why on earth is Sasuke supposed to be the one who can't change?

Edit. If you are going to answer, maybe do it to the debate thread? So we don't flood this thread more than we already have.

Gaara didn't convert because of a pep talk, he realized after fighting naruto that naruto's power came from love. Btw, let's compare, did gaara make assassination attempts on the lives of 5 kages? Did he try to capture and kill the brother of a Kage? Did he join a terrorist organization? Did he kill a hokage? Did he try to murder his teammates? According to my memory, the only people he killed were those sound nin in the chuunin exam.

[Slextrem]

Sasuke is definitely more extreme than Gaara ever was. It's true that their levels of hatred were comparable at one point, and Gaara even mentions this himself, but he never fell as far into darkness as Sasuke. These pages are proof of that:

http://www.mangahere...v50/c464/8.html

http://www.mangahere...v50/c464/9.html

Gaara: "I've realized that living for revenge doesn't solve anything. It's not too late for you.... Don't escape into your own little world, possessed by hatred. You won't be able to return.
...Sasuke, you and I are alike. We have walked through the darkness of this world.... That's why we are able to see even a sliver of light. Both back then, and even now..."

Sasuke: "I have long since closed my eyes... My only goal is the darkness."

You can't say that Gaara was a worse case than Sasuke. Gaara never wanted to be filled with hatred, but he became that way because of constantly being rejected. He just wanted someone to understand him; to accept him. The moment that he found that in Naruto, he chose to turn his life around, which eventually led to his acceptance in Suna.

As soon as Gaara found his "sliver of light" in Naruto, he chose to reach for it and embrace it. Sasuke on the other hand chose to close his eyes to it and fall into darkness; and let's not forget that Sasuke had been surrounded by that same light throughout the majority of Part One.

Sasuke has been given multiple opportunities to follow Gaara's example, but he chooses not to:
After Sakura expressed her worries about his curse mark, Sasuke chose to keep it a secret.
After Kakashi warned Sasuke about the dangers of revenge - even sharing the fact that he has lost his loved ones too but they now have precious companions that care about them, Sasuke chose to join Orochimaru.
After Sakura confessed her love and desire to do anything for him, Sasuke chose to desert Konoha.
After Naruto called him a brother, Sasuke chose to sever his bond.
He chose to close his eyes to their light and fall into darkness. Even after learning the path that Itachi wanted him to follow, he still wants to crush Konoha and everyone that lives there. This is the path that he wants for himself. He's not looking for redemption; he's not looking for forgiveness. That's the difference here.

Gaara is nothing like Sasuke.

Edited by Slextrem, 25 December 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Jake]

Gaara didn't convert because of a pep talk, he realized after fighting naruto that naruto's power came from love. Btw, let's compare, did gaara make assassination attempts on the lives of 5 kages? Did he try to capture and kill the brother of a Kage? Did he join a terrorist organization? Did he kill a hokage? Did he try to murder his teammates? According to my memory, the only people he killed were those sound nin in the chuunin exam.

Don't forget those Grass-nin (the ones that Gaara got their other scroll from) during the second round of the Chunin Exams.

[T XD]

A character who's gone evil; they can turn good again or don't cause it's a choice of the mangaka to take that won't affect the manga as its story.

Sasuke can turn good in his last breath before he dies, or he can turn good in the middle of the battle against Madara, or he won't at all, or simply he's good again and still remain a wanderer .... and the list continues.
There's many ways for Sasuke to still the same or don't cause this shifting or the remaining the same in his character can be set in the plot line in many ways to situate the story in the upcoming chapters.
Whereas, Gaara isn't the same as Sasuke as in character ( Sasuke: main character Gaara: side character ) and how the manga is setting for him. One of the reasons that Gaara isn't like Sasuke is because a side character won't have that much impact of his evilness to the story, like Sasuke was their friends and then he turned bad and left the village so as a main character, the writer will set up some future impacts on the story. Gaara is introduced as a side charcter who had a difficult time and faced the protagonist, then he realized what he's thinking and what he did so you have a good Gaara which is how Kishi planned from Gaara. He could have still be bad but didn't.

So, it really depends on the characters and on the story of the manga.

Edited by T XD, 25 December 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Nefertieh]

Yes, but he is the goal because he is an important person to Sakura. Later we have plenty of moments to comfirm that Sakura has feelings for Sasuke still. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that the only reason why Sakura wants Sasuke back Is just for Naruto's sake.

There is no doubt that Sasuke was important to Sakura. What I thought the original commentor was saying was that Sakura, in that particular situation, made a promise to Naruto -- which was more personal than she has done with Sasuke.

As for "wants Sasuke back Is just for Naruto's sake" -- would that be referring to the time when Naruto went four tails?

quite frankly I find the Naruto fandom to be very hypocritical and very random in who it decides to comdemn and who to praise. Really? Losing your crush is worse than losing your entire family and this totally justifies massmurder and major brainwashing of the entire world? Dear God, Naruto fandom...

No, ofcourse not. Nobody is saying Sasuke is sane, but I've seen a lot of people say that Sasuke's insanity seems relatively more understandable than Obito's insanity (at least, from what we've seen so far).

All that aside, the point is, Naruto chasing after Sasuke seems relatively more understandable than Sakura going after Sasuke. You can't compare Sakura's bond to Sasuke like Naruto or Itachi's bond to Sasuke simply because they are all "unconditional."

But, see, Sakura has development. Compare chapters 181 and 483, for example. There is no way that anyone can claim her to be the same now, in ch 614, than in ch 3, either.

That is my point really. You asked, "why would it destroy Sakura's character if she loved Sasuke all the way to the end and SS happened?"

First of all, if you consider Sakura's development as something satisfactory, then you wouldn't consider her character "destroyed" at the end of the manga. If you aren't satisfied, then you would consider it "destroyed."

I've actually come across a lot of people who say that the only development Sakura has had is that now a shorter temper and a harder punch. >_>

Regardless of Sakura's feelings, my biggest doubt is Sasuke ever returning the sentiment.

Well, if you are interested on my take, read my previous posts on this thread. I did comment on this already so I won't repeat everything as my posts are only couple of pages back. Quick summary, though: fictional manga world has massmurderer convert to team Good because of pep talk. Why would it be impossible for abusive man to go through a change for the better? It is perfectly possible change in the fictional world of Naruto. Gaara has yet to lapse back to his wicked killer ways. Why on earth is Sasuke supposed to be the one who can't change?

Edit. If you are going to answer, maybe do it to the debate thread? So we don't flood this thread more than we already have.

I did read all of your previous posts. Ofcourse it wouldn't be "impossible" for an abusive man to change for the better in this fictional universe, then and again, is anything impossible? For many fans, however, it is still disturbing to see a character married to another character who tried to kill her.

Edited by Nefertieh, 25 December 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

That is my point really. You asked, "why would it destroy Sakura's character if she loved Sasuke all the way to the end and SS happened?"

First of all, if you consider Sakura's development as something satisfactory, then you wouldn't consider her character "destroyed" at the end of the manga. If you aren't satisfied, then you would consider it "destroyed."

I've actually come across a lot of people who say that the only development Sakura has had is that now a shorter temper and a harder punch. >_>

Regardless of Sakura's feelings, my biggest doubt is Sasuke ever returning the sentiment.

OFc it would destroy her character, he never returned her feelings and give her all the reasons to move on, ending with a guy that tried to kill her two times in a row and treated her like a trash does not mean a happy ending for her characters, is not even romantic at all.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

When's the next chapter released? Wednesday?

[Phantom_999]

SO. Anyone betting Neji fans will commit suicide next. I mean, Will this lead to another incident like that Russian Itachi fan-boy?