1124 replies to this topic

[redragon88]

This is precisely the problem: Kishimoto is TELLING us that she is stronger, but if people weren't saying it you'd never know. At best you can conclude she is the same. He SHOWS us Naruto and Sasuke. I'd know it even if people never said it. This is not true with Sakura and the fact that her youth is being brought in as a reason should be a clear sign that this is being poorly done (so far).

We shouldn't have to use such weak evidence or hang our hats entirely upon the words of people. I will agree as a matter of canon Sakura has surpassed Tsuande. The argument, for me, is that the method for showing it is poor. It's weak writing and, should it stay this way, not satisfactory at all.

I am undecided because it's entirely possible future chapters will give that demonstration. But this, standing as it is, is not enough for me.

The old writer's adage: SHOW don't TELL.

 

I do agree wholeheartedly.

 

While Sakura's lack of active involvement doesn't irritate me as much as others I would embrace the probability to see her take a more active role if given the chance.

 

She'll never have such importance as Naruto and Sasuke, but let's hope Kishi can finish her up in a respectable way.

 

My only problem with the fact of this whole "storing chakra for 3 years" is if she stored chakra or she constantly 24/7 stored chakra because, she has to sleep and even there were many times she was uncouncious plus the battle against Sasori which was a great hidrance for her and she was even poisoned, and later when she got stabbed by Sasori which also had poison.

 

Yeah, I wonder about that too. But I think in the end Kishi just didn't give it much thought. Wouldn't be the first time he skips on the little details.

Edited by redragon88, 16 May 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[redrose3443]

True. That three years of storing chakra has some serious gaps in it. It kinda sounds like an excuse to give her a power up, while not giving her one sooner.

Edited by redrose3443, 16 May 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Nic]

@ Nic. I know, but when you look at Naruto and Sasuke it's obvious they surpassed their masters, but if you look at Sakura you would need to nit pick and look for little details, just to support the fact that she surpassed her. Basically, like Luffy said, Sakura's abilities are an exact copy of Tsunade's with no real difference, while Naruto and Sasuke have obvious differences that separate them from their masters. The only way for Sakura to beat her's is if she gained Slug Sage Mode or something happened with her genjutsu, like it was foreshadowed at the beginning of part two.

I don't believe that, Sakura would just be able to wear out Tsunade.  I wouldn't compare her to her two teammates either who are reincarnations of the first sons. Kishi clearly doesn't care to put her on their level whether justified or not.  Having said that there's no way Kishi is going to keep her at this point this late in the manga weaker than her master.

[redrose3443]

I don't believe that, Sakura would just be able to wear out Tsunade.  I wouldn't compare her to her two teammates either who are reincarnations of the first sons. Kishi clearly doesn't care to put her on their level whether justified or not.  Having said that there's no way Kishi is going to keep her at this point this late in the manga weaker than her master.

I meant before the reincarnation thing happened, it was still obvious that they were stronger than Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Of course he's not going to keep Sakura weaker than her master, but he still needs to prove she is stronger. Just becuase he has someone state it once, does not mean it's been proven. Like Nate said, he needs to show it and so far Sakura has not even fought with her seal activated. Madara is about to plunge every one into a powerful genjutsu, in that genjutsu Sakura is going to need some type of development. Whether it be SSM or her breaking out of the genjutsu with some new genjutsu type ability in order to fight with Naruto and Sasuke against Madara.

 

If Sakura does not get involved in some action, then our evidence for Sakura surpassing Tsunade is the fact that she doesn't need the seal to look younger, Hashirama stated her power might be more fierce than Tsunade's, and because Kishi would never leave her weaker than her master. That is not strong enough evidence, plus you know most people take things at face value and will say that it was not SHOWN that she is superior to Tsunade. If a fight went down between the two and Sakura won then yes we would be able to say she surpassed Tsunade, but Kishi is not going to write that, so he needs to show it some other way.

Edited by redrose3443, 17 May 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[NaruSakuishere]

It's a pity that Kishi chose to focus Hinata's story on her unrequited feelings for Naruto instead of making it about her becoming more fierce, yet retaining some air of elegance.

it's sad really because I used to like Hinata. But now she's very one dimensional and her whole character is based on her infatuation with Naruto.

Edited by NaruSakuishere, 16 May 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[harry4e]

You see I feel the opposite. I feel that Sakura should be able to do something seeing as Kishi always talked about her genjutsu in part one and brought it up in the beginning of part two. Kakashi said that with her genjutsu, Sakura could make a better kunoichi than Tsunade. Well this is the time for Kishi to do something with that, unless he's going to just discard the whole thing, which would be horrible story telling, he needs to do something with Sakura. He utilized her chakra control, now it's time for her genjutsu. The story ain't over till it is.

 

Um....where exactly did Sakura get the training to become so good at Genjutsu? Not just any training either but the level of training that would allow her to get out of Genjutsu that Madara believes capable of getting the entire Ninja world under his control? She was originally a Genjutsu type but without the training she can't expected to break out of Madara's Jutsu...However as I mentioned in my post because she has her revival seal unsealed at the moment, it may be enough to disrupt her Chakra network to break her out of the Jutsu.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-259.html

 

The three ways to break out of a Genjutsu, First cut off the Chakra going to your brain, use more power to disrupt the Genjutsu, and last have someone from outside inject you with chakra to disrupt the Genjutsu, I don't think the first two will work, the technique seems too strong to be broken by a technique everyone can use on themselves, however the last one is possible as the Byakugo does exactly that, it takes chakra that is stored in the seal and pumps it into her body essentially doing the job of having an external source injecting Chakra inside her...Similar to what the Eight Tails did with B when he was put under a Genjutsu.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-413.html

[James S Cassidy]

This is precisely the problem: Kishimoto is TELLING us that she is stronger, but if people weren't saying it you'd never know. At best you can conclude she is the same. He SHOWS us Naruto and Sasuke. I'd know it even if people never said it. This is not true with Sakura and the fact that her youth is being brought in as a reason should be a clear sign that this is being poorly done (so far).

We shouldn't have to use such weak evidence or hang our hats entirely upon the words of people. I will agree as a matter of canon Sakura has surpassed Tsuande. The argument, for me, is that the method for showing it is poor. It's weak writing and, should it stay this way, not satisfactory at all.

I am undecided because it's entirely possible future chapters will give that demonstration. But this, standing as it is, is not enough for me.

The old writer's adage: SHOW don't TELL.

 

Couldn't I technically say the same thing about Sasuke though? Up until the point of...well now...his powers I feel was extremely exaggerated based on word of mouth. Naruto, Orochimaru, Obito, and such all said he was a lot more powerful than expressed. Orochimaru I believe said he was like the next Madara, but really up until unlocking the Sage powers, he never showed that much power. Hell, more often than not, Naruto show cased major power that seem to far surpass Sasuke's.

Actually, still thinking about it, if not for the Rinnegan's abilities, he probably is still weaker than Naruto.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I believe the presentation is different from big blast and what not to say, "Damn, that's impressive." I'm only referring to the past.

 

Anyway, I say we shall wait and see rather than feeling determined that this will happen or not. For all we know, Madara could have a dud on the plan. Like he just stares at the moon and say, "Um...what the kitten..." only to have white Zetsu reappear, "Hahahaha, you kittened up!"

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Couldn't I technically say the same thing about Sasuke though? Up until the point of...well now...his powers I feel was extremely exaggerated based on word of mouth. Naruto, Orochimaru, Obito, and such all said he was a lot more powerful than expressed. Orochimaru I believe said he was like the next Madara, but really up until unlocking the Sage powers, he never showed that much power. Hell, more often than not, Naruto show cased major power that seem to far surpass Sasuke's.

Actually, still thinking about it, if not for the Rinnegan's abilities, he probably is still weaker than Naruto.

Compared to his masters he's way powerfull now comparing him with Naruto is a different matter, even comparing him with Madara, we all know he's not at his full power because he still has the other eye to awake and Naruto is also incomplete because he only has a tiny part of the bijuus.
But as for Sasuke we see him using different jutsus and keep being stronger.

Look at Sakura as an example, she goes to punch Madara and fail.

[James S Cassidy]

I believe the presentation is different from big blast and what not to say, "Damn, that's impressive." I'm only referring to the past.

 

Anyway, I say we shall wait and see rather than feeling determined that this will happen or not. For all we know, Madara could have a dud on the plan. Like he just stares at the moon and say, "Um...what the kitten..." only to have white Zetsu reappear, "Hahahaha, you f**cked up!"

 

lol. I would love to see that. Having white Zetsu laugh at Madara would be too funny.

 

Compared to his masters he's way powerfull now comparing him with Naruto is a different matter, even comparing him with Madara, we all know he's not at his full power because he still has the other eye to awake and Naruto is also incomplete because he only has a tiny part of the bijuus.
But as for Sasuke we see him using different jutsus and keep being stronger.

Look at Sakura as an example, she goes to punch Madara and fail.

 

We see Sasuke go to stab Madara and fail...twice. First time got him killed. Even with his new powers. I am still not convinced Sasuke is as powerful as they make him out to be. Sure, he probably does have power of some caliber, but even Itachi was able to out do him twice. Itachi was dying and on life support and he still could match Sasuke toe for toe and even almost beat him if not for him just dying on the spot.

Sasuke couldn't even stand up to Obito without Naruto and Juugo providing help. So what does that really say about his power?

To me, Sasuke's power is overrated and I feel he is not that powerful even after everything that was given to him.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 16 May 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[redrose3443]

 

Um....where exactly did Sakura get the training to become so good at Genjutsu? Not just any training either but the level of training that would allow her to get out of Genjutsu that Madara believes capable of getting the entire Ninja world under his control? She was originally a Genjutsu type but without the training she can't expected to break out of Madara's Jutsu...However as I mentioned in my post because she has her revival seal unsealed at the moment, it may be enough to disrupt her Chakra network to break her out of the Jutsu.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-259.html

 

The three ways to break out of a Genjutsu, First cut off the Chakra going to your brain, use more power to disrupt the Genjutsu, and last have someone from outside inject you with chakra to disrupt the Genjutsu, I don't think the first two will work, the technique seems too strong to be broken by a technique everyone can use on themselves, however the last one is possible as the Byakugo does exactly that, it takes chakra that is stored in the seal and pumps it into her body essentially doing the job of having an external source injecting Chakra inside her...Similar to what the Eight Tails did with B when he was put under a Genjutsu.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-413.html

 I don't know how she would gain genjutsu abilities, however because of the fact that Kishi has been doing power ups and @sspulls for a while now, why not let Sakura get something that he never built on. Her gaining some genjutsu abilities would not be completely out of the blue, seeing as the only person she really fought was Sasori and the only time an enemey cast a genjutsu on her was back at the beginning, with Itachi.

 

Kishi could do the same thing he did with her seal in reguards to her genjutsu ability for all we know.

 

@ NaruSaku4life3g - LOL

Edited by redrose3443, 17 May 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

lol. I would love to see that. Having white Zetsu laugh at Madara would be too funny.
 
 
We see Sasuke go to stab Madara and fail...twice. First time got him killed. Even with his new powers. I am still not convinced Sasuke is as powerful as they make him out to be. Sure, he probably does have power of some caliber, but even Itachi was able to out do him twice. Itachi was dying and on life support and he still could match Sasuke toe for toe and even almost beat him if not for him just dying on the spot.

Sasuke couldn't even stand up to Obito without Naruto and Juugo providing help. So what does that really say about his power?

To me, Sasuke's power is overrated and I feel he is not that powerful even after everything that was given to him.

Still after that he succeeded by stabing Madara and kicking his ass until he got the other rinnegan, the point that Sakura never get those moments, Kishimoto only emphasize her healing powers, neither Sasuke or Naruto arent successfull 100% but they keep fighting and they succeed, Sakura fails and then she's put on the background once again.
Which later Kishimoto emphasizes more of her healing powers.

Neither Naruto or Sasuke would be capable of beating Itachi at that time i dont see the point of this comparison, Itachi was superior to Sasuke until he acquired the eternal mangekyou.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 May 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[redrose3443]

Still after that he succeeded by stabing Madara and kicking his ass until he got the other rinnegan, the point that Sakura never get those moments, Kishimoto only emphasize her healing powers, neither Sasuke or Naruto arent successfull 100% but they keep fighting and they succeed, Sakura fails and then she's put on the background once again.
Which later Kishimoto emphasizes more of her healing powers.

Neither Naruto or Sasuke would be capable of beating Itachi at that time i dont see the point of this comparison, Itachi was superior to Sasuke until he acquired the eternal mangekyou.

That's pretty much how I see it. Even if sasuke and Naruto fail, they still had many moments where they succeeded that make up for it, plus they keep going at it. Sakura has had little to none of these moments and when she tries to do something, Kishi makes her fail then gets her out of the way for the boys. That's why people can still accept the fact that naruto and Sasuke are strong, they have proven it many times, where as Sakura has only proven it once.

Edited by redrose3443, 16 May 2014 - 11:33 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Still after that he succeeded by stabing Madara and kicking his ass until her got the other rinnegan, the point that Sakura never get those moments, Kishimoto only emphasize her healing powers, neither Sasuke or Naruto arent successfull 100% but they keep fighting and they succeed, Sakura fails and then she's put on the background once again.
Which later Kishimoto emphasizes more of her healing powers.

 

I think you're missing the point.

You two keep emphasizing Sakura's power and how she failed in doing stuff against Madara and such like that, but Sasuke's entire story has been nothing, but failure. Naruto and Sakura have been a lot more successful in their fights than Sasuke has and have lasted longer in a fight. Sasuke took a stab wound to the chest so easily it is almost laughable. Hell, several members here still can't believe it. He went down so easily even though Sasuke hasn't even been battling that long. He came in late to the war.

Sasuke lost to Itachi even with Itachi's extreme handicap and technically Itachi beat Orochimaru who manifested in Sasuke's body. Itachi even beat Kabuto.

So really, what power does Sasuke have? His feats have been outdone, but people supposedly weaker

 

Still after that he succeeded by stabbing Madara and kicking his ass

 

I'm sorry, where did the ass-kicking part come in? I remember Sasuke stabbing him through the arm and Madara laughed it off like it was nothing. Also, again, against a handicapped opponent. Madara who took on all the tailed beasts and came out messed up thinking "Well, that was mildly annoying." I think we are reading a different manga because I have never seen Sasuke truly kick any ass other than maybe Danzo's.

Sasuke's entire potential is all word of mouth and until Sasuke got the rinnegan, he couldn't do anything against anybody.
 

That's pretty much how I see it. Even if sasuke and Naruto fail, they still have many moments where thay succeeded that make up for it, plus they keep going at it. Sakura has had little to none of these moments and when she tries to do something, Kshi makes her fail then gets her out of the way for the boys. That's why people can still accept the fact that naruto and Sasuke are strong, they have proven it many times, where as Sakura has only proven it once.

 

Sakura only failed against Madara who even Sasuke and Naruto failed at in their first attempts. Also, considering how powerful and broken Madara is, do you really expect anything different?

This is totally an unfair comparison. Even Gai failed against Madara, so should we say that he was a failure? Kakashi failed against Obito, so should we call him a failure?

Sasuke has failed even more than Naruto has.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 16 May 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I think you're missing the point.

You two keep emphasizing Sakura's power and how she failed in doing stuff against Madara and such like that, but Sasuke's entire story has been nothing, but failure. Naruto and Sakura have been a lot more successful in their fights than Sasuke has and have lasted longer in a fight. Sasuke took a stab wound to the chest so easily it is almost laughable. Hell, several members here still can't believe it. He went down so easily even though Sasuke hasn't even been battling that long. He came in late to the war.

Sasuke lost to Itachi even with Itachi's extreme handicap and technically Itachi beat Orochimaru who manifested in Sasuke's body. Itachi even beat Kabuto.

So really, what power does Sasuke have? His feats have been outdone, but people supposedly weaker
 
Still after that he succeeded by stabbing Madara and kicking his ass
 
I'm sorry, where did the ass-kicking part come in? I remember Sasuke stabbing him through the arm and Madara laughed it off like it was nothing. Also, again, against a handicapped opponent. Madara who took on all the tailed beasts and came out messed up thinking "Well, that was mildly annoying." I think we are reading a different manga because I have never seen Sasuke truly kick any ass other than maybe Danzo's.

Sasuke's entire potential is all word of mouth and until Sasuke got the rinnegan, he couldn't do anything against anybody.

What?
We're talking about power, Sakura only won a fight against Sasori then Kishi put her on the background and she had "glimpses" of strenght like punching that giant catterpillar, punching a zetsu, punching Juubi's minions when she awakened the byakugan.
Sakura only had one fight on part 2, she has no ground to show off her skills.

Sasuke never lose a single fight on the manga, sure it had downsides and upsides like any fight.
About Madara, it was like any other of his fights, sometimes he and Sasuke has the upperhand and other times they're losing, he got stabbed by Madara, later he awakens the rinnegan and they start hitting him.
Naruto got pwned by a single jutsu from Madara, later Pain pwns him with bansho tein.
Both Naruto and Sasuke never started a fight by winning and having the upperhand the exception would be the fight against Pain.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 May 2014 - 11:44 PM.

[Nate River]

Couldn't I technically say the same thing about Sasuke though? Up until the point of...well now...his powers I feel was extremely exaggerated based on word of mouth. Naruto, Orochimaru, Obito, and such all said he was a lot more powerful than expressed. Orochimaru I believe said he was like the next Madara, but really up until unlocking the Sage powers, he never showed that much power. Hell, more often than not, Naruto show cased major power that seem to far surpass Sasuke's.

In other words, you concede it was shown. 
 
I am, you know, including the Sage powers as to both Naruto and Sasuke. I hate them, but they are beyond anyone else can whip out at this point except for Madara. 
 
And to get past that problem you have to use MADARA as the goal posts as opposed to Orochimaru...Sasuke's actual mentor. I guess I should change Naruto's from Jiriaya to Ashura or maybe even the Sage himself then. That way we can say he hasn't surpassed crap, too. 
 
Finally, how does this help Sakura? Even if I were willing to concede your point (I don't) all it would mean is that Sasuke's sucked too. Big deal. 
 

Actually, still thinking about it, if not for the Rinnegan's abilities, he probably is still weaker than Naruto.

 
Completely irrelevant to the point I made. This isn't about their relative strengths. It's about Kishimoto's writing and how is demonstrating surpass their teacher.

I spoke to nothing else in the quoted material.

[KeikoxYusuke]

I think you're missing the point.
You two keep emphasizing Sakura's power and how she failed in doing stuff against Madara and such like that, but Sasuke's entire story has been nothing, but failure. Naruto and Sakura have been a lot more successful in their fights than Sasuke has and have lasted longer in a fight. Sasuke took a stab wound to the chest so easily it is almost laughable. Hell, several members here still can't believe it. He went down so easily even though Sasuke hasn't even been battling that long. He came in late to the war.
Sasuke lost to Itachi even with Itachi's extreme handicap and technically Itachi beat Orochimaru who manifested in Sasuke's body. Itachi even beat Kabuto.
So really, what power does Sasuke have? His feats have been outdone, but people supposedly weaker
 
Still after that he succeeded by stabbing Madara and kicking his ass
 
I'm sorry, where did the ass-kicking part come in? I remember Sasuke stabbing him through the arm and Madara laughed it off like it was nothing. Also, again, against a handicapped opponent. Madara who took on all the tailed beasts and came out messed up thinking "Well, that was mildly annoying." I think we are reading a different manga because I have never seen Sasuke truly kick any ass other than maybe Danzo's.
Sasuke's entire potential is all word of mouth and until Sasuke got the rinnegan, he couldn't do anything against anybody.
 

 
Sakura only failed against Madara who even Sasuke and Naruto failed at in their first attempts. Also, considering how powerful and broken Madara is, do you really expect anything different?
This is totally an unfair comparison. Even Gai failed against Madara, so should we say that he was a failure? Kakashi failed against Obito, so should we call him a failure?
Sasuke has failed even more than Naruto has.

great counter, I love you right now... OuO (not trying to be creepy btw ^^;;)

[redrose3443]

@ James I'm just saying Kishi should not have had Sakura stand there after getting stabbed. I know she could not see the clones, but maybe having her bounce back and start breaking some meteors would have been better than having her be amazed by the boys abilities.

 

I know Sasuke has failed, but he's been built up with so much hype that people don't see his failures until it's too late and he's strong again. He did get one shotted by Madara, however right now he's back and showing off great abilities. Until Ksihi does something like that for Sakura no hater/neutral person will see her accomplishments as much of a feat.

Edited by redrose3443, 17 May 2014 - 12:22 AM.

[manbeast101]

Well, to be honest, Sasuke isn't that powerful, to me that is, because every person he has fought an "defeated" were either already weakened or injured in some way.

 

But that's just me stating my opinion, not trying to contradict anyone or anything.

[redrose3443]

Well, to be honest, Sasuke isn't that powerful, to me that is, because every person he has fought an "defeated" were either already weakened or injured in some way.

 

But that's just me stating my opinion, not trying to contradict anyone or anything.

I agree with you, Sasuke has had handicaps on nearly all his opponents. But because they were still shown to be strong and he never had the horrible start that Sakura did, it's easy to just say Sasuke is strong.

 

When you look back at Sasuke, like James did, then you would see that he's not that amazing, but the odds of people doing that are slim and the odds of people caring are worse. Point is right now, Sasuke is powerful, while Sakura is just strong. Unless it's fixed to where Sakura has at least a fighting chance, she will never be regared as much.