9679 replies to this topic

[Thomas]

welcome to the comunity.
its like the others have said hinata got acknowledgement from naruto but naruto still loves sakura and he realize that she loves sasuke, sakura got sad after knowing that hinata loves naruto because she loves a great guy that cares about the other people unlike sasuke.
she loves sasuke but regrets it , because he only make her suffer and he is evil!

sakura will save naruto after the fight i willl put my money into this!!!!!

ban this flicker he just joined the H@E to put this nonsense here and then leaves withot saying a word!

Edited by Thomas Narusaku, 28 November 2011 - 10:38 PM.

[Don-kun]

@Fickly NH is cute but it only help Hinata she is not Naruto's dream girl and Sakura will not die that will hurt Naruto big time, SS hurt Sakura character or Sakura single at the end for NH think again, if you read and analize the Manga with out Shipping google you will know that NH chance are not higher and it was never higher than NS chances, but I'm tired right now so I will only copy paste this post.

You need a base for any real relationship to last long, NaruSaku has a better base right now than NaruHina & SasuSaku combined, as for saying NaruSaku has no romance built, that is not the case, their are small moments, such as Sakura flirting with Naruto in the beginning of part 2 or Sakura willing to feed Naruto when his arm was damaged(consider romantic in Japan culture), you don't need 1 big moment all the time, but you do need consistency, which NaruHina & SasuSaku do not have. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke gotten stronger throughout part 1, which was 3 years ago, we don't know how she feels now for Sasuke as she never said, other characters had said it, but Sakura herself has yet to say. I have a sister, and I can tell you that Naruto & Sakura do not have such relationship, you don't flirt with your brother or ask your sister out on a date. As for SasuSaku develop, that's long gone, and I wouldn't say it's a romance development because regardless of that, Sasuke never gained feelings for her, sure he started to care about her as a teammate, but that's it.

Only Sakura's feelings is a secret, hence why her feelings are the most important. We know Naruto loves Sakura, his reaction to the Sakura's confession said it all, he told Sakura to stop joking around, that shows he still take his feelings seriously, also in Sai's flashback, the reason why Naruto didn't tell Sakura how he feels is because he believes that Sakura still loves Sasuke, he wants her to be happy, and he implied that he can't tell Sakura how he feels until Sasuke is back, he wants her to give him a honest answer, hence why he "rejected" Sakura's confession. As for Sasuke, he tried to kill Sakura twice recently, we know he doesn't feel any romance for Sakura.

Naruto is THE main character, THE hero, THE protagonist, it's his manga, hence why it's call NARUTO, NOT Team 7. Sakura wouldn't be could the main heroine, she officially is the Leading Female, Sasuke is the anti-hero, they are part of the main cast. When I said Sasuke doesn't love anyone, I meant romanticly, it's obvious he loves his family & his clan, but it doesn't change how Sasuke had always felt towards Sakura, he never developed anything for her as a love interest. Sakura & Naruto are not going to act different around another, and they shouldn't, that's how real relationships & friendships work, I'll be more worried if they did, that's what make their friendship strong & great, they can be natural around each other.

It's been implied that Naruto loves Sakura & no one else. It's been stated by other characters in part 2 that Sakura loves Sasuke, it also been implied that Sakura may have feelings for Naruto. However, it has NEVER been implied that Sasuke/Naruto may have feelings for Sakura/Hinata. Being a likeable person doesn't mean "I like you", it means that person is cool. There isn't going to be any OBVIOUS serious romance between NaruSaku if any, just little moments as of now, the difference between this manga & other mangas is that there is a "3-way" romance going on & people care too much about it, & Kishimoto is milking it as much & long as he can.

Kushina & Sakura have similarities, they are not the same, so saying that Kushina didn't do a fake confession is a moot point. You can't concluded that Kushina would think that Sakura's fake confession was weird, Sakura had done it mainly to protect Naruto, so Kushina would more than likely appreaciate that. Who ever said it would take Naruto & Sakura 5 years to develop a relationship? If that's the case it will take NaruHina & SasuSaku even longer so that argument doesn't work. Sakura will figure out her feelings soon, likely during the Naruto vs Sasuke final fight. You know why Naruto like Sakura, they both wanted to be acknowledged, even though you can say that's not a good reason, it's good enough for Naruto to apparently have his feelings developed into love. Sakura's crush did developed into love(thanks to Naruto), but why? That she never explained. Since you brought up Ino, Ino's feelings weren't dropped, she just doesn't get nearly as much screentime, when she found out Sasuke had to be killed, she was crying, something Sakura wasn't doing for Sasuke.

I don't say NaruHina fans are selfish, but you guys do think about Hinata's feelings too much, you said that NaruSaku fans think about Naruto's feelings too much, of course we do, he's THE main character, he should get his first choice, not Sakura or Hinata. However, the difference between NaruHina & NaruSaku is that NaruHina appears to be 1-sided right now, while at least Sakura appears to have feelings for Naruto, that is the major difference. So we don't only think about Naruto, we think about Sakura to, & Sakura should be with someone she can be natural with, not someone who just tried to kill her.

The panel was way too short for Naruto to recovered from the shock of the hug.

Sakura knows how important Sasuke is to Naruto, she couldn't tell him the truth, & she knows that because Naruto will refused to kill Sasuke & stop anyone who tries to, so she gave a fake "confession", which I think people underestimated what a risk she took, what if Naruto accepted the confession, what would happen then? They would had went back to the village, as Sakura intented. I don't think Sakura would took such a gamble if she didn't have some feelings for Naruto. People tent to forget that Sakura attempting to kill Sasuke was a backup plan & her bringing Naruto back to the village was the initial plan.

Hinata's confession was for couple of reasons, for Hinata's story to be over, for plot device(6-tail Naruto), and for Sakura to healed her & realised Hinata's feelings(hence why Hinata wasn't killed & brought back to life like the others). It wasn't for Naruto as a character, and when did I ever said Hinata lied to Naruto? Hinata did have closure as a character, Hinata fans just want more, her status in the Hyuga clan isn't important to the story, there is nothing to wrap up in her confession, NaruHina fans wouldn't feel that way, but to fans in general, we feel like it's done, there is too many things going on to get back to it, especially since Hinata wasn't expecting anything in return.

It still doesn't changed Sakura's intentions as for why she confessed to Naruto & Sasuke, another thing that people don't realised with Sakura's confession, no one ever accused Sakura for lying about her feelings for Naruto, she was accused lying about not caring about Sasuke anymore, which was an obvious lie. Ino recently crying for Sasuke indicates that she still feels something for Sasuke, as for Lee, I think his feelings were just dropped, but it also goes by popularity. NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku are known as the Big 3 for a reason, they are popular, Kishimoto would lose a lot of fans if Hinata's feelings were dropped, Hinata not having feelings for Naruto anymore would make her irrevelant.

Edited by donjoseph19, 28 November 2011 - 10:51 PM.

[Anguyen92]

ban this flicker he just joined the H@E to put this nonsense here and then leaves withot saying a word!

Now, now, now is that statement really necessary? Here we are earlier trying to compare NS to other pairings outside of the series to kill time before NS is canon and then an opposition pairing shipper fan came and made their statement in a very good polite manner, and you're trying to call this nonsense?

Its better when they say it like that as oppose to "Sakura must die" and all of that. Doesn't really matter if that person comes back or not because at least we have that post to dissect and reassure ourselves that we are backing the right horse.

[Thomas]

@donjoseph19 i dont know why u replied him, Flicker just post this nonsense then leaves he dont care for what u think or the entire comunity he just come post a nonsense then leaves , we are still here debating and he is laughing .
i ask flicker to be banned , i dont like spammers

@Anguyen92 i call this nonsense because he omitted a lot of things that happened its like u filter something and gives the form that u like, he only got the facts thatr happened toward hinata and analyzed them with a opinion formed

Edited by Thomas Narusaku, 28 November 2011 - 10:54 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

@donjoseph19 i dont know why u replied him, Flicker just post this nonsense then leaves he dont care for what u think or the entire comunity he just come post a nonsense then leaves , we are still here debating and he is laughing .
i ask flicker to be banned , i dont like spammers

@Anguyen92 i call this nonsense because he omitted a lot of things that happened its like u filter something and gives the form that u like, he only got the facts thatr happened toward hinata and analyzed them with a opinion formed

*slow clap*

WOW. Way to lower yourself to a rabid, close-minded fanboy. Here's a guy who's not antagonizing anyone, presents his opinions and interpretations in a thread specifically for presenting debate and you just go "ZOMG, NH fan, ban him!" I've been here ever since this site's first few months and we've always welcomed any fans who ship other pairings even if they don't like NaruSaku. Curb your attitude or I'll get a mod to ban you.

[Anguyen92]

@Anguyen92 i call this nonsense because he omitted a lot of things that happened its like u filter something and gives the form that u like, he only got the facts thatr happened toward hinata and analyzed them with a opinion formed

I thought the whole point of a debate thread is to have an opinion, even if one does not really favor you or one that only sees the glass half-empty and our job as NaruSaku fans at our home base is to, you know, enlighten them on things that we see, and if they don't listen or respond then does it really matter to us? If they do respond, then we go on back and forth and kill a good amount of time, and if they don't respond, then we could just go back to what we were talking about before the poster made their post.

Edited by Anguyen92, 28 November 2011 - 11:02 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

NaruSaku - a pairing I see as a red herring - is finished off in this arc (IMO), with the simple fact that, Kishimoto has shown us:
- Sakura realizes that Naruto is the better 'man' but she is still not capable of loving him romantically despite everything that happened (as shown recently)
- Naruto's feelings have (started) being addressed with Sai confessing them to Sakura (and she is still not loving him, mind you)
- The promise of a lifetime is officially lifted, with Naruto even going as far as saying that it does not matter to him wheter said promise still stands or not
- Yamato's reaction to the confession further shows that the scene from ch. 297 wasn't meant romantically (meaning: red herring)
- Naruto's reaction to the confession was also very interesting. He notes that it is a lie and that she loves Sasuke, a weird thing to come from someone who is still pursuing her seriously

I think the red herring argument is kinda silly, mostly because you can't prove it. Any of the pairings could be a red herring because it is simply a distraction. And for NS to be the red herring, well, that is a lot of focus on a mere 'distraction'. It's had the most development, which means a lot of wasted panels if it is meant to be a red herring. I think it is more common to introduce the true pairing, throw in the red herring to detour from it, then wind back to the before seen main pairing. To me, NH looks more like a red herring in that it appears very little, appeared later than NS in the story, got some momentum with a confession, and then went no where. The biggest problem with NH is that there isn't an 'N'. It is all about Hinata, and Naruto doesn't gain anything at all from it. It's simply convenient.

-Sakura may still love Sasuke, but that love is repeatedly shown as making her unhappy and guilty feeling and ashamed, which to me says the author intends her to get over this love at some point.

-Naruto's feelings might have been partially confessed, but I don't believe for a minute that the hero of the story will not confess personally to her, especially when he admitted his reason for not having done so already.

-I think you are missing a key point about what Sakura's thought process was verses the point of the POAL from Naruto's perspective. Sakura saw the POAL as a burden on Naruto to bring back Sasuke for her. This point from Naruto's pov means little: he was already going to do this and he will do this regardless. The importance of the POAL to Naruto is his acknowledging that he will give up his love for Sakura so that she can be happy with Sasuke who she loves. The strength of the POAL lies in it being a selfless act of love. It wasn't about saving Sasuke since he was doing that anyways. It was about Sakura. Obviously if she doesn't love Sasuke anymore, he doesn't have to worry about losing her forever. The act, however, still stands.

-Yamato's speech doesn't make sense in any other way but for him to be implying romance. There is no point in cutting off the sentence otherwise.

-Actually, Naruto's reaction isn't weird at all. It's how he normally reacts with Sakura when it comes to deep care and love. He has always operated under the mindset of Sakura loving Sasuke 'so much!'. He also often deflects her pain and worry over himself (as he did during the rescue Gaara arc) and he protects her feelings at his own expense (shown when he allowed Karui to beat him up). In a lot of ways, he seems to keep Sakura at arms length so that he not only protects his own feelings, but hers as well.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I think the red herring argument is kinda silly, mostly because you can't prove it. Any of the pairings could be a red herring because it is simply a distraction. And for NS to be the red herring, well, that is a lot of focus on a mere 'distraction'. It's had the most development, which means a lot of wasted panels if it is meant to be a red herring. I think it is more common to introduce the true pairing, throw in the red herring to detour from it, then wind back to the before seen main pairing. To me, NH looks more like a red herring in that it appears very little, appeared later than NS in the story, got some momentum with a confession, and then went no where. The biggest problem with NH is that there isn't an 'N'. It is all about Hinata, and Naruto doesn't gain anything at all from it. It's simply convenient.

-Sakura may still love Sasuke, but that love is repeatedly shown as making her unhappy and guilty feeling and ashamed, which to me says the author intends her to get over this love at some point.

-Naruto's feelings might have been partially confessed, but I don't believe for a minute that the hero of the story will not confess personally to her, especially when he admitted his reason for not having done so already.

-I think you are missing a key point about what Sakura's thought process was verses the point of the POAL from Naruto's perspective. Sakura saw the POAL as a burden on Naruto to bring back Sasuke for her. This point from Naruto's pov means little: he was already going to do this and he will do this regardless. The importance of the POAL to Naruto is his acknowledging that he will give up his love for Sakura so that she can be happy with Sasuke who she loves. The strength of the POAL lies in it being a selfless act of love. It wasn't about saving Sasuke since he was doing that anyways. It was about Sakura. Obviously if she doesn't love Sasuke anymore, he doesn't have to worry about losing her forever. The act, however, still stands.

-Yamato's speech doesn't make sense in any other way but for him to be implying romance. There is no point in cutting off the sentence otherwise.

-Actually, Naruto's reaction isn't weird at all. It's how he normally reacts with Sakura when it comes to deep care and love. He has always operated under the mindset of Sakura loving Sasuke 'so much!'. He also often deflects her pain and worry over himself (as he did during the rescue Gaara arc) and he protects her feelings at his own expense (shown when he allowed Karui to beat him up). In a lot of ways, he seems to keep Sakura at arms length so that he not only protects his own feelings, but hers as well.

Now, that's how you respond to an opposing statement. No personal attacks, objective. Thanks for being polite, Soupy.

[Fenris]

Ah, donjoseph, Miss soupy,

Donjoseph, I'll have to read your reply more better later, it's really long xD
Miss soupy, I agree completely.

There's no N in NH, theres just Hinata.
In SS, there's no Sasuke, just one S.
In NS, it's both development. It's nto one sided, for they've grew together and both have interest in one another.
It's the only pairing out of the big 3 that has a actual bond between the two said.

[FoolishYoungling]

There's no N in NH, theres just Hinata.
In SS, there's no Sasuke, just one S.
In NS, it's both development. It's nto one sided, for they've grew together and both have interest in one another.
It's the only pairing out of the big 3 that has a actual bond between the two said.

I like that.. I like that alot.

[Thomas]

*slow clap*

WOW. Way to lower yourself to a rabid, close-minded fanboy. Here's a guy who's not antagonizing anyone, presents his opinions and interpretations in a thread specifically for presenting debate and you just go "ZOMG, NH fan, ban him!" I've been here ever since this site's first few months and we've always welcomed any fans who ship other pairings even if they don't like NaruSaku. Curb your attitude or I'll get a mod to ban you.

So try to ban me, i'm not close-minded when someome comes and say "i'm neutral" then reveals himself a naruhina and put some nonsense without any valid arguments.
i respect when they come here and express his opinion with valid arguments not with nonsense
i'm not against naru-hinas but when someome cant express a valid opinion, and come here to troll me.
if he comes here and put a decent opinion like other guys did and another things i've read its okay but coming here and trying to defend his pairing sorry for this language, but trying to defend his pairing with this "kitten", i cant take it , then u came here and say i'm a rabid , close-minded fanboy, be more polite.
i dont care if u have been here since few months.
u lose my respect.

[Super Boom]

It looks like Miss Soupy already addressed Fickly's post better than I can, but I thought I'd throw in a few thoughts while the topic's hot. I'll try not to be too redundant.

- Sakura realizes that Naruto is the better 'man' but she is still not capable of loving him romantically despite everything that happened (as shown recently)

The problem with this argument is that you're relying on Sakura loving Sasuke to support the idea that "she is still not capable of loving [Naruto] romantically". It's not impossible for a female character to have feelings for more than one guy, especially one who's been stated to be a "realistic character". So I believe she is perfectly capable of loving Naruto.

- Naruto's feelings have (started) being addressed with Sai confessing them to Sakura (and she is still not loving him, mind you)

Check out Soupy's post. I suppose I didn't need to quote this, but I didn't want you think I was ignoring a talking point.

- The promise of a lifetime is officially lifted, with Naruto even going as far as saying that it does not matter to him wheter said promise still stands or not

His comment echoed his own desire to save Sasuke, regardless of what Sakura wanted. His feelings are tied to POAL, but his desire to save Sasuke is completely seperate.

- Yamato's reaction to the confession further shows that the scene from ch. 297 wasn't meant romantically (meaning: red herring)

Hmm. I haven't heard this argument in a while. That conclusion is pretty forced, don't you think? Yamato's shocked expression was a reaction to the situation itself. You can simplify it and say that he was surprised at Sakura's feelings, but it seems far more likely he was reacting to the general situation. Not only did Sakura come out of nowhere and just randomly confess her feelings to Naruto, she did it in front of several of her peers and mentors. A public love confession performed that swiftly is pretty OOC for Sakura, which is most likely why Yamato acted the way he did.

Think about it this way. I don't know what other manga/anime you might be familiar with, so I'll pick a popular one with an obvious romantic subplot, Inuyasha. I might be speaking for myself, but I thought Inuyasha/Kagome and Miroku/Sango seemed pretty obvious for the majority of the series.
Anyways, imagine while they're out on some random quest without Kagome, she just randomly appears, runs up to Inuyasha and confesses her love to him. No apparent provocation to the main party, just an out-of-the-blue confession. Do you think the rest of the cast would be surprised, or do they think they would all act as if they saw it coming? You can switch Kagome with Sango and Inuyasha with Miroku if you want, but basically the point I'm making is that the awkwardness of the situation would supersede the feelings themselves in both cases.

- Naruto's reaction to the confession was also very interesting. He notes that it is a lie and that she loves Sasuke, a weird thing to come from someone who is still pursuing her seriously

I don't think it's strange at all actually. At the very least, it's not OOC for him. He's pursuing her romantically, but it's been stated no less than three times beforehand (hospital scene, POAL, and Sai's flashback) that his feelings for Sakura are completely selfless. He cares more about her feelings than his. He wants to be with her, but he won't accept anything less than her honest feelings. This is Naruto we're talking about. Accepting Sakura's feelings with some obvious baggage would be the same as accepting a co-Hokage position with Konohamaru, or bringing back Sasuke's left arm and claiming he successfully brought Sasuke back to the village after all.

This arc however, the following things have happened that might be used for NaruHina IF a pairing is to happen:
- When Naruto saved her, a clear difference was shown between Sakura's reaction and Hinata's reaction
- And in my opinion, this is to me the most hardcore thing that could be seen as a hint: them saying the exact same lines about reading what is in their eyes. To me it was the first romantic scene in the whole manga between a non-canon pairing.

Psst, hey...your Naru/Hina boxers are showing.

But, seriously, doesn't this argument seem hypocritical after calling N/S a red herring? Saying that Kishi laid the groundwork for something is a really open-ended argument. I could make drastically better arguments concerning the forehead comment a henge'd Naruto made in Chapter 3, or how the Mina/Kushi parallel was anything but subtle.

I'm quite confident that Naruto's feelings towards Sakura and Hinata will be addressed very soon, and this will tell us wheter Kishimoto is planning to make NaruHina canon or to make no pairings canon at all...Cause that is how I see it: either NaruHina (alone) becomes canon or none of the big 3 happen.

That's interesting that you think that, but like I said before, Naruto's feeling for Sakura have been shown to be completely selfless at least three different times. The way the pairings have been written, I really can't see Naru/Hina happening as anything other than a consolation prize for Naruto. It's possible that Kishi intends to have Naruto "get over" Sakura, but he really seems to be going in the opposite direction as far as I can tell.

Curb your attitude or I'll get a mod to ban you.

LOL, so are you a mod-in-training or something?

Seriously, though, Thomas' post might have been over the line, but I really can't blame him too much. I love that this site allows members of all pairing fanbases to participate, but this is a fanclub for a specific pairing in a series that involves some of the most rabid shippers I've ever seen. Maybe I don't have enough experience in shipping fandoms, but Naruto's the first fandom I've been involved in where I've heard people joke (hopefully) about committing suicide or homicide based on what the mangaka's chosen pairing is. And that's honestly just the tip of the iceberg concerning rabid shipper remarks I've had the misfortune of reading. So I really can't blame some people for being on edge when we get a poster like this on this board. Especially considering how often we get N/H, S/S, or just anti-N/S shippers on here just to rile people up.

Besides, if you're trying to get Thomas banned for ruining the atmosphere of this site, I think you need to reset your priorities. I can think of a few regular posters in the Ramen Bar who should've been banned 13 times over by now, if that was the sole reason for such a heavy punishment. I'd think a veteran poster like yourself would be more understanding concerning over-the-top comments made by newer members.

EDIT: I'm not sure if anyone's going to go back and read this, but I thought I'd point out that when I mentioned "rabid shippers" earlier, I was talking about the Naruto shipping fandom in general, as opposed to any specific fandom. I'm not going to get into the argument as to who has more rabid shippers, since my opinion's obviously going to be colored by my own preference, but I was talking about crazy Naruto shippers in general. Just thought I'd clarify in case it sounded like I was attacking a specific fandom.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 29 November 2011 - 02:19 AM.

[Rocket]

*slow clap*

WOW. Way to lower yourself to a rabid, close-minded fanboy.

Now, that's how you respond to an opposing statement. No personal attacks, objective. Thanks for being polite, Soupy.

And yet... you called Thomas a "rabid, close-minded fanboy". He made an offensive post, but you're no different if you call him a rude name

Curb your attitude or I'll get a mod to ban you.

If you found his post offensive, you could have just... reported it in the first place

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Everyone calm down please lets focus at the topic at hand, NaruIno would win anyways.

[Ani]

They weren't talking nonsense, they were just giving their opinion. Thomas and shadow both need to calm down. Other than that, I think Soupy said what I feel in regard to the new guy's post. We welcome everyone and remember not to bash pairings and characters. That includes members, too.

[FoolishYoungling]

Everyone calm down please lets focus at the topic at hand, NaruIno would win anyways.

But then SasuHina would happen.. and Sakura would get.. Lee * coughs and dies*

@Ani: agreed!

Edited by Sakura Lover, 29 November 2011 - 01:10 AM.

[merryGOflava]

well if we were talking about other couples >:T......that are like narusaku

gohan and videl are kinda similar

gohan liked videl and videl was kinda harsh to him at first :3


its funny cause both videl and sakura cut their hair at one point XD



i found this and thought it was funny XD



and her reaction was funny in this one XD

Edited by merryGOflava, 29 November 2011 - 01:51 AM.

[Derock]

well if we were talking about other couples >:T......that are like narusaku

gohan and videl are kinda similar

gohan liked videl and videl was kinda harsh to him at first :3


its funny cause both videl and sakura cut their hair at one point XD



i found this and thought it was funny XD



and her reaction was funny in this one XD

Ah, GohanVidel... the most obvious canon pairing in all of the Dragonball series. When I first seen Videl, I knew she would hook up with Gohan!

But, anyways, people, especially shadow and Thomas, you guys need to chill or I will send the warnings out. So: Cut. It. Out.

[Anguyen92]

The Mods have spoken!


Man..... We really need some new material to debate over...

We had new material to go over, but then it was dissected within like four hours of it, and that was that. Dang it, we probably need that Fickly person back. I liked the way the person addressed himself/herself over his/her post.

We probably need like another big-time moment, to really get the pipes and the flow going, since we probably talked over everything single thing over the 560 some chapters and the 450 some episodes.

However, does anyone here have any questions about anything, pairings-related?

Edited by Anguyen92, 29 November 2011 - 05:14 AM.

[Rocket]

We had new material to go over, but then it was dissected within like four hours of it, and that was that. Dang it, we probably need that Fickly person back. I liked the way the person addressed himself/herself over his/her post.

We probably need like another big-time moment, to really get the pipes and the flow going, since we probably talked over everything single thing over the 560 some chapters and the 450 some episodes.

However, does anyone here have any questions about anything, pairings-related?

Yesh, we need a new moment in the manga

Anyways, so when do you guys think the /real/ Naruto is gonna meet up with Sakura?

Edited by Rocket, 29 November 2011 - 05:17 AM.